First I need to say that I wasn't judging anyone. That is the last thing I would do. I am concerned that some people are being given false hope when all they have in the way of counseling is this board. In a perfect world everyone would have counselors like the Harley's but it's not a perfect world.<p>I post here when I'm frustrated or upset, which isn't happening much anymore. I see my counselor, who is very much in favor of the MB principles, weekly, That is where I deal with most of this mess.<p>I know I would most definitely want someone to tell me if I was being played for a fool by my H. I think that would be better than having people saying not to give up when clearly the marriage is over. <p>I set unspoken limits on how long I would go on in the marriage with nothing in return from my H.
If we had reached that point I was going to be the one to walk away. I understand people not wanting a divorce and using Plans A & B constructively but what I don't understand is encouraging someone to stay in a situation where they are clearly being emotionally damaged daily.
I'm sure any good counselor would agree that sometimes enough is enough.<p>I'm not pointing a finger at anyone and I for sure am not judging, I'm only worried that sometimes encouraging words aren't what needs to be said.

How many of us believe a marriage should be saved at any cost? Not me, with some the costs are too high<p>Are all marriages salvageable? No. just the ones with a big enough dose of love and respect left.<p>Where do you draw the line and realize a marriage won't work? The time and effort put into saving the marriage compared to what the couple is able to do. This varies greatly from person to person.<p>I look back and think I could have done this or that better, but I have never kicked myself for being kinder than I should have. I get mad at my own impatience. I still need to be best for me.

I believe a marriage can and should be saved, as long as you can keep your sanity and dignity and self-worth and self-respect and salvation! AND as long as the other person WANTS to be married to you as well! It takes two willing, committed people!<p>I believe all marriages are salvageable IF the individuals are willing to CHANGE because evidently MUCH CHANGE is needed when both people reach deep states of withdrawal and resentment! All things are possible with God! But... not all believe in that so I guess you can't say "all" then...<p>If you lose respect for the spouse and you lose faith in each other and in the relationship, it deterioriates and perhaps to the point of no return, UNLESS both are selfless enough to bend far enough to meet each other.<p>Where you draw the line, *I* would say is at physical abuse. I definitely would draw the line at physical abuse. My H however, draws the line at VERBAL abuse. Sooooo, I had to change my old ways... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Praise God for MB!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But as far as the kind of advice given here, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I think for the most part, people pretty much know what they are dealing with. After all, we are living the daily realities of our own situations. Sooner or later, we know when we are beating our heads against that brick wall and start accepting reality... whether it's days or weeks or months or years, we get there! We do! That's just life in the big city!

<<<How many of us believe a marriage should be saved at any cost?>>>><p>Absolutely not.<p><<<Are all marriages salvageable?>>><p>Of course not. There definitely are marriages that were doomed from the beginning. I've sat at weddings thinking "If this lasts for a year it will be a miracle."<p><<Where do you draw the line and realize a marriage won't work?>>><p>I have no idea. I think that would be very individual and depending on the circumstance. For me, in my marriage it probably wouldnt' have been until I received finalized divorce papers.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TinyDancer:
<strong> I am concerned that some people are being given false hope <p>I know I would most definitely want someone to tell me if I was being played for a fool by my H. I think that would be better than having people saying not to give up when clearly the marriage is over. <p>I'm not pointing a finger at anyone and I for sure am not judging, I'm only worried that sometimes encouraging words aren't what needs to be said.</strong><hr></blockquote><p> The problem is that none of us have any way of knowing that these people's marriages are truly over. My H told me that he wanted a divorce and that there was NO CHANCE that we would EVER get back together. Here we are, 3 years past the end of the A, and extremely happy. Thank God I didn't listen to the counselor who told me that I needed to prepare for the 'eventual end of the marriage" or the well meaning friends who told me to "give up because he isn't coming back." My situation seemed very hopeless at the beginning, but I refused to give up. Things turned out better than I ever could have imagined for us. The whole nightmarish mess turned out to have a solid gold lining. My best friend was a WS about 7 years ago. She told her H at one point in time "I can't stand to look at you for even one more day. There is no way I can stay married to you." 7 years later they are like teenagers in love. It's not at all uncommon for a seemingly hopeless situation to turn around completely.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>Based on my experience, I would say that in the absence of life-threatening physical abuse, marriage is absolutely better than divorce.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Nellie,<p>I consider a PA life-threatening physical abuse. When you are in what is supposed to be a monogamous R and your partner has sexual contact outside the R (and condoms and other barriers are not 100% safe) and then has sexual contact with you without informing you about other sexual partners, they are endangering your life without your knowledge or consent. I consider the STD my H gave me a physical assault, and I wish it was criminally prosecutable.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
I consider a PA life-threatening physical abuse. When you are in what is supposed to be a monogamous R and your partner has sexual contact outside the R (and condoms and other barriers are not 100% safe) and then has sexual contact with you without informing you about other sexual partners, they are endangering your life without your knowledge or consent. I consider the STD my H gave me a physical assault, and I wish it was criminally prosecutable.<hr></blockquote><p>
Here, Here, Conqueror!<p>I second the motion.

You are so right on, Conquerer.<p>I consider the fact that my husband spent a couple months sleeping with another woman, (without my knowledge) and then with me a few weeks later an act of physical abuse. I feel as if I had been raped when I found out. I felt dirty. I felt used.<p>I know that is an extreme. But when I asked him if he was sure that he didn't bring home any diseases, all he did was stutter. I found out much later, last year, that he had had some type of medical treatment for an infection "down there." (I had been snooping, of course. He didn't tell me about this of his own free will.)<p>I told him "You took my life into your hands when you did that!" He had nothing to say to this.<p>As for if I believe if all marriages can be and should be saved, of course not. But IF there are children involved, and if it is not a dangerous and hostile environment for children to be in, you should do your very best to try your darndest for them. Sometimes that's not possible, I know.<p>Is it possible to save all marriages? Should you try to save a marriage by yourself without the effort of your partner? <p>This is what I believe, and you can hammer me if you want: You cannot save a marriage by yourself. Sure--you can turn a wayward partner around. I did. You can carry the load for someone who can't--for a while. You can give 200% for a short time, while your spouse can't or won't. But in the long run, marriage takes two.<p>When my husband finally pulled his head out of his butt, he transformed into a wonderful man, better than he ever has been. He is growing to be more fantastic every day. I love him dearly.<p>A year ago, if he had kept on the path he was, even with all the patience, understanding, love and charity that I could muster on my part, the divorce would have certainly gone through, no hard feelings.<p>Marriage is a partnership, not a babysitting contract or a rescue mission. Not a co-dependency. Marriage to a spouse with morality problems is not an issue of tolerance. It's a question of whether or not you want to be partnered for life with someone who is so seriously warped that you never have hope for happiness. I am not talking about when he leaves his underwear on the bathroom floor everyday or when she spends too much money at the mall. These things can be fixed if both partners have tolerance, patience, love.<p>Things that do mental harm, like frequet extramarital affairs, abuse, and involvement in criminal activity are things that should not have to tolerate.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bernzini:
<strong> I feel as if I had been raped when I found out. I felt dirty. I felt used.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Same here. I told him he had no right to force me to have sex with her.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I know that is an extreme. But when I asked him if he was sure that he didn't bring home any diseases, all he did was stutter.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Mine kept saying, "I KNOW I'm clean" all the way up to when we were sitting in the doctor's office, and she's reading us the POSITIVE results. Not only did I have to do a course of antibiotics that tore my stomach up, but then I had to go through WEEKS of yeast infection as a result of the antibiotics and multiple medications and treatments to get rid of that, too! While he was blissfully symptom-free.<p>I'm still waiting for him to explain to me how I got Chlamydia if he was using condoms every time as he claims. And I'd also like to know why he wanted me to believe he used condoms if SHE was the one he was going to be with--shouldn't he have been using condoms with me if SHE was his REAL relationship? He said he considered me his ex-wife. Strange how I never got that memo.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Marriage is a partnership, not a babysitting contract or a rescue mission. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>LOL! This is a classic I'm going to have to commit to memory. Thanks, Bernzini! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]