Here's a general question - and this was and still is often a source of conflict between me and the WS... I just need to know if I'm nuts or not... do you agree or not and why?:<p>I really believe -and am not shy about saying it- that men and women can never really be 100% platonic friends...<p>I've been around too many times - and seen too much/too often to believe that true 100% platonic friendship between members of the opposite sex exists. <p>Not to mention - my training in psychology has taught me that our sexual identity is both a very big and a very important peice of who we are. -MUCH too big/important for anyone to believe that we can actually leave it at the doorstep when we enter into a true friendship (especially true for men - I'm not sure if women are capable or not - but I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of men are not capable of 100% patonic friendship with a woman). <p>Even Harley says the VAST majority of affairs start as "innocent" friendships... I'd expand on that to say there is no such thing as 100% "innocent" friendships between men and women (again- especially for men)...<p>Think for a sec about what true friendship means...???... regardless of the sex of the people involved their has to be something that attracts one person to another... then there has to be true caring. More then just professional caring (like a boss who cares about a subordinate - or a leader who cares about his/her soldiers)- it is more than just mentoring - more than just being coworkers or teammembers- there has to be caring on a higher level.<p>Lastly - in order to be real friends their has to be intimacy. That means you share intimate things. Intimate things like financial issues, spousal problems maybe?... you might discuss sexual issues... fears, hopes, dreams, feelings, or all sorts of other things things that are intimate to you (eg. things you wouldn't share with just any co-worker)... things really get dicey if you chose to share something with your "friend" that you can't or won't share with your spouse.<p>If you ask me, if you have such a relationship with someone whom you are NOT capable of having sex with (eg. maybe a straight man and his male fishing buddy) then you are a very lucky to have a real freind in your life.<p>But if you have such a relationship with someone who you are also capable of having sex with, then you already have an EA going. -and a PA isn't hard to find from there...<p>When I was single I NEVER had a TRUE FRIENDSHIP with a woman that didn't go physical at some point (there were 4 to be exact - and each time I was surprised... each time I think we both really thought the friendship was patonic and would never be anything else).... <p>-and almost every true friendship I've ever seen between men and women went physical. If not, it was because one person (usually the man) made a pass but got shut down.<p>Funny thing also - much to the woman's chagrin (women hate finding out AGAIN and AGAIN that they will never have a real platonic friendhip with a man...) - she normally finds that after shutting down the guy, he doesn't really want to be friends anymore... (unless he still unconciously thinks there is some way to get in her pants)...<p>The same thing was illustrated by every one of my friends who remained faithful to his wife. Mysteriously, they lost all their female "friends" within a VERY short time of becoming serious with their future spouse - and never made new ones. <p>In other words, once off the prowl they lost interest in them... meaning the main fuel for the relationship was most likely NOT platonic at some level... perhaps on both sides, or perhaps only on one side...<p>Then I saw it in myself - as soon as I really fell in love and got serious, I lost all interest in real friendships with other women. They are just too much damn work! Being intimate is really alot of work... and if one is wasting energy/time cultivating an intimate friendship with another woman, then one cannot help but steal energy/time from the most important friendship in his life. <p>-and as we all know, between work, family, kids (if you have them), and your partner, none of us have any spare time or spare energy...<p>So I am very suspicious when I hear the words "we are just friends". In fact- I think it is bull****. There is no such thing as her being 'just friends' with another man. <p>You can be just co-workers, or just acquaintances, but when the interaction exceeds that (phone talks, lunches, lying so you can have drinks after work without inviting me...) -you are no longer "just friends". -At the very least this guy is trying to screw you. <p>In fact, if it is a relationship that is intimate enough to qualify him as a real/true friend then it is already inherently bad news... Why couldn't she ever seem to get that threw her skull? I feel like I kept warning her she was walking into an ambush -kept telling her I was uncomfortable with the relationship- I kept trying, kept working - and she let it happen anyway. (actually thats letting her off the hook -as if this was something that "happenned to her".... bull****, this was something she did...)<p>She has BIG issues -among them are major issues with a mentally abusive father - seems to have resulted in a very dysfunctional level of need for male attention and approval (like some sort of addiction) ...I think that has alot to do with it. <p>Not that she didn't get attention from me- she did/does. I personally chose a long time ago to need only 3 truly significant relationships with women in my life. They are: my mom, her mom, and her (maybe 1 or 2 more women if we have daughters - oh, I forgot I also have an aunt who I'm close to). In addition, I'm not a sports freak, a hunting/fishing freak, and I was never a big 'boys night out' guy. None of that eats my time...<p>Believe it or not, it has taken this exerience for me to learn that I'm actually a very healthy and good spouse. I need no more than that, and if I ever did have a significant real friendship with some other woman, I can't imagine it having 100% healthy motivations... Am I crazy? <p>Now, since D-day, I've spent more time people watching at my own work... I suggest you do it someday - <p>Watch how people (usually men) send these little signals -verbal, nonverbal, etc. just sort of sampling the population... most of the women return signals that say "I'm not interested" or say "I'm here as a professional"... then others respond with little innendos and innocent flirtations or jokes... <p>Whatch it happen at your job over the next couple of months... whatch the "friendships" blossom into EAs or PAs and then die out or get found out... I've seen it not once, not twice, but thrice since my own d-day...<p>Its really shaking my beliefs... not only my belief in marraige as a viable, credible institution - but also it is shaking my belief in the inherent goodness of human nature...<p>At the minimum it has convinced me that I am right. -and everytime I think I've found an exception to the rule it turns out to be a hoax..<p>As a matter of fact, someday after my PHd, I think I might even name a psychological law after my WS....

Heartbreaker's Law:
"Men and women are incapable of a truly, 100% platonic friendship" <p>-I'd value your opinion too...

In second grade I met my best friend. We shared secrets and got into trouble as all kids do. It's 33 years later and HE is still my best friend. He is Godfather to both my children and my H and I are Godparents to his new baby. His wife and I get along wonderfully, just as he and my H do. I was never physically or sexually attracted to him nor he to I. We are friends and no more. I am not in an EA with him. I have never been in an EA with him. I will never be in an EA with him. We are friends and nothing more.

I do think it is possible for a man and a woman to be platonic friends but there are risks and you have to be careful. However I'll give you an example.
I have a platonic male friend I met almost 20 years ago while travelling. We even shared a hotel room several nights- platonically. He's just not my type- so although we had plenty of opportunity, I made it clear that we would just be friends. Sure, I don't think he would have turned down a physical relationship, but he was content with a friendship.
Over the years we kept in touch. He's an amazing traveller and periodically he would visit. And my husband is completely included in the friendship. When our friend writes, I always read the letters to my husband.
Now my friend has married, and when he last came to visit, my H and I got together with my friend and his new wife.
Now I have to admit, I would not confide in my friend about the problems between my H and I. It's just not that kind of friendship. But I'll also say, I have not told many people about our marital crisis, including my own parents. I enjoy my friend because he always has interesting stories to tell, and I can live vicariously through his experiences. But fortunately, just due to a lack of basic attraction, I know there will never be a risk. And I am careful to include my H, although if I saw if I saw my friend alone it would be completely safe for the two of us- no danger of an A.

Interesting thread. I agree with your assement. <p> So what does that say about human nature. <p> Also I have noticed that just because one side in the friendship doesn't want a PA, the other most likely does. <p> jd

Unsure,
I know that many people will write that they CAN have platonic relationships with the opposite sex, however I agree with you 100%.<p>There will be some exceptions, but I really think that you are right in your assesment of male/female relationships. If more people realized where these relationships often end up, they might be much more careful. As you said, they often begin as "just friends" but more often than not, they end up in the bedroom... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Maybe you should write a book?<p>[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: Ladysing58 ]</p>

unsureofme,<p>I am in total agreement with your assessments. I long before W's A developed warned W of gettin to be "just friends" with the opposite sex. And on D-day, I told her, look what happened, I warned you about getting too close with a male. FEELINGS GROW!!!!! It is almost impossible in most cases not to.<p>On the flip side, I do have a very close female friend that hasn't gone sexual. At one point in time (before W) I could see this as happening, but it didn't. Now, I know she wont let that happen to our friendship (she wont allow herself to be the OW). I am and have been thankful for her being that way. But, and a big but, I dont see or talk to this freind for weeks or months at a time. It doesn't allow our friendship to develope at a pace that an A sometimes does. Some people on this site may say that it is an EA, and I may at one point in time have thought that it was too (after reading this site and hearing others posting about an EA). My reasoning it is not an EA is as follows: Friend was going to go off to college as we were in essence, "seeing each other", and me (because of it happening to me) wasn't going to deny her the right to better herself in education. I didn't want to be the person that held her back. Well, a few months passed and I saw her and found out she wasn't going to go to college and was living with another man. In a way, broke my heart because I did have some feelings for her and I called it off for what I thought were "good" reasons, and to find out that she did stay and wonder what if?? Anyway, we have a better relationship than we did when we were seeing each other, but it is not sexual.<p>Boy, after that, how can I be in 100% agreement with you after a story like that?<p>The friend is my only female friend that I have. Maybe its because I dont trust myself not to get involved with another woman. Like I warned my W, I know better.<p>wwl

Well I'll just a my 2 pence worth in here as this is currenlty happening to me (my relationship info is on the general discussions board)<p>I think there is a huge difference between having a friend of the oposite sex who has been a friend for yrs ie:b4 you married because before you married the chance was always there for things to develop without complications.<p>The devil enters this relationship when to spouses are already married & one suddenly develops a friendship with someone of the opposite sex because if they need 2 do that then there is something missing for them in the first place. I may b wrong & feel free 2 shoot me down but tis the way i see it.......

I think that if a person has a friend of the opposite sex and keeps spouse in the loop and everything is in the open that it is possible to have a friend of the opposite sex.
Problems come up when the spouse starts to doubt and acuse and then the other feels that to keep this friend that things have to be kept secret and that just puts a bigger wedge between the spouses.(how convenient for the other person huh???) When a spouse does not accept a friend they are asking the other spouse to choose between on or the other. Now if this is a friend for awhile or even a coworker developing into a friendship how fair is that? So feeling as if they are put on the spot they tell you that they love you and want to stay with you and then go out in secret to see this friend, thus the definition of EA. So is it all the other spouses fault for the EA or where they helped to that place? makes for a good discussion anyway...

Maybe what is lacking here is a definition of 100% platonic. <p>A 100% platonic relationship is a relationship devoid of sexual tension... a relationship devoid of sexual attraction, and/or interest. Not merely on 1 side, but devoid of all these things on both sides. <p>Again, I submit that (if we are really truly honest with ourselves) that relationships such as these do not exist between real friends of the opposite sex. (see the first post for my definition of real friends)... maybe some women can do it... but men? Not from what I've learned... <p>Heck! 100% platonic relationships are even pretty rare between co-workers of the opposite sex.<p>I think people can have relationships with people of the opposite sex and not hurt their marraige. But I think it starts by living in the real world! -and admitting that on some level it is dangerous. Admitting that whether or not that other relationship hurts your marraige will depend on the decisions you make pertaining to what and how much you care about that person and share with that person.

If this is acknowledged by all parties involved. -and people care enough about their spouse to recognize each and every set of crossroads when they get to them - and take the right road (like choosing not have a friendship where your spouse doesn't know about it and is not invited) then these relationships might not hurt your marraige.... <p>-that said I don't think one EVER helped a marraige...

While it may be possible, I also agree that it's too risky. One of the friends often wants more, and it ruins the friendship or their marriage. My H's affair with my former best friend started out as 'friends.' Obviously, it didn't stay that way.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by maggierose:
[QB]While it may be possible, I also agree that it's too risky. One of the friends often wants more, and it ruins the friendship or their marriage./QB]<hr></blockquote>
I have to agree here, as I think may be the case with my H's "friend". I don't think it's her I have to worry about, moreso him. I think he's smitten. He acts like a pre-teen in puppy love, always checking his email, etc. Waiting for her to write (and she does). But that's the way she is, with lots of people. Not him. He doesn't seem to get it though. Doesn't seem to see/care that it bothers me. She isn't a decade old "friend" either, but a new one, over the past year (they work together). Don't believe it's possible to really truly just be "friends", at least both.

I refuse to believe that it's not possible. I do think it is tricky. I think that more emphasis needs to be placed on teaching boys and girls, men and women on how to be friends, what is acceptable friendship behavior, etc. <p>We are attracted to people we want to be friends with, whether they are women or men. Friends are really special and make life worth living...without being around people you love and care for, what is there? Some men and women choose not to marry. Are they destined to only have friends of the same sex, because society says men and women can't be friends? <p>People have got to learn to exert self control. Throughout life we're going to meet people of the opposite sex that we click with, feel a chemistry with..but we are already in relationships...we aren't available...does that mean we can't have any kind of friendship? I can't accept that...it's too sad and too tragic. Life is too short. We are civilized people, we need to exert self-control and act in a responsible and respectful way...not just cop out and say...it's biology that made me do it.
My two cents.

ashirley- GREAT POINT! and I agree with every word you said. <p>The relationships can exist -perhaps it might be tragic if they didn't... perhaps...<p>-but the mere acknowledgement of the fact that it requires self-control, maturity, or/and a sense of love and respect for your actual spouse also acknowledges the fact that that on some level it is not 100% platonic... <p>if it were 100% platonic self control would not be required (believe me it requirtes no self contol what so ever, for me to decide not to seduce or even flirt with my best friend Nick...(a man) -none at all...)<p>That doesn't mean you can't have the friendship - but be real about it.... To stick your head in the sand like my WS and pretend and act as if it doesn't require self control and maturity and respect (for me) is a lie...<p>If you ask me she always knew it wasn't platonic- she only used her BS retoric about "Why can't I have a close friendship with a man?" to allow her to continue a relationship she already knew was innappropriate and heading the wrong way...

unsureofme,
Is it possible that your W doesn't even know that there's such a thing as an EA? <p>All friendships between people of the same sex and people of the oppostite sex are really EAs. That defines a friendship. What does 100% platonic mean? I'm not interested in having a friendship with a person of the same sex or with a person of the opposite sex, unless there's some kind of spark or chemistry. In my opinion, that differentiates a friendship from an acquaintance. Until very recently, I had no idea that you could have an A with no physical contact. As a lay person, we just don't know enough about interpersonal relatioships. I'm 46 and I had never heard of an EA until very recently. But people need to know ahead of time, that a friendship with a person of the opposite sex is an EA of sorts, and that they must be very careful how they proceed with their friendship, and must follow certain "rules" so that they don't end up falling hopelessly "in love" and ruining both a marriage AND a friendship. <p>Because we know so little about relationships, often kind gestures made to us by another person gets minintrepreted as an overture, when all it was, was a kind gesture. As "people" we have so much to learn about interpersonal relationships...we have so much to gain from more knowledge and so much to lose because of our ignorance.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ashirley:
<strong>unsureofme,
Is it possible that your W doesn't even know that there's such a thing as an EA?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
But what I'd like to know is how to approach your spouse with this knowledge? I didn't know anything about EAs until this place and others and I'm sure my H doesn't know of them, that's why mine thinks it's just friendship and what's wrong with friendship? But when in an unstable relationship to start with, with a paranoid, controlling wife (me, but working on it!) how can you bring up something like that? Does this make any sense? I'd love to tell him, show him, anything, but how? I'm too afraid to come right out with it. So for now I'm just dealing with it or trying. Help!

I've gotta agree with unsureofme. I don't know of one single situation of a best or even good male/female friendship that didn't get physical (or obviously EA) at some point. Inner-Office friendships, or friends from the gym or church whatever, should remain acquaintances. In my opinion, to discuss your personal marital issues with someone of the opposite sex who isn't your spouse or minister or family member is just plain stupid. It's just asking for trouble. <p>I've been on both sides of this issue, so I think I can say that without being biased. After my H's first affair (PA), I willingly allowed a friendship to go too far -- that ended up biting me on the butt, so to speak. BAD idea. Both of my H's PA's were "good" friendships first, then went WAY too far. To this day he says he doesn't know why or how he let it happen. He swore he never stopped loving me, yadda, yadda. His latest "good" friendship got nipped in the bud (by me) IMMEDIATELY upon my finding out they were buddies. He said it was never PA, and won't admit it was an EA, but agreed that it may have ended up going there eventually. (Somehow she knew he was unhappy at home - unfortunately he didn't share that info with me first so I could help fix the problem). She's a badge bunny bimbo in search of bagging a uniform, and my H is a cop...their "friendship" would've ended our marriage eventually.<p>All that to say, I still agree with unsureofme. You can never be 100% certain that a male/female friendship won't ever go over the line, so WHY risk it? It's so not worth it, believe me! If a friendship is more important than your marriage, you already have a huge problem. I say ditch the friend and work on the marriage!
at peace

__________________________________________________
"Then I saw it in myself - as soon as I really fell in love and got serious, I lost all interest in real friendships with other women. They are just too much damn work! Being intimate is really alot of work... and if one is wasting energy/time cultivating an intimate friendship with another woman, then one cannot help but steal energy/time from the most important friendship in his life.
........<p>So I am very suspicious when I hear the words "we are just friends". In fact- I think it is bull****. There is no such thing as her being 'just friends' with another man. "
_________________________________________________<p>Well put!, although it hurts a little, my husband said he was calling the OW because she needed someone to talk too. She just needed a friend.
ACME

I have two male friends that I cherish dearly. Sexually it's just not there for any of us. Both are happily in love with there significant others and I still happily in love with my H but I do get something from these friendships as do they.
I noticed alot of people had problems with the idea of opposite sex friendships because they feel at somepoint one will be attracted to the other and it makes me wonder, how would you feel about same sex friendships if one is homosexual? Are these friendships not worth persuing because one may become attracted to the other?

Posted by ashirley:<p>All friendships between people of the same sex and people of the oppostite sex are really EAs."<p>I believe this is a cop-out, and makes it easy to "defend" an EA. I believe there is a line between friendship and EA. The following are key elements that help to determine the difference:<p>1) Secrecy. The spouse is kept in the dark about the depth of the "friendship". Things that might be kept secret are the amount of time spent together (or on phone), topics of discussion, how often the "friend is on the WSs mind, etc...<p>2) Sharing. Specifically sharing of thoughts or emotions with "friend" that are not shared with spouse. Often, this is an in-depth discussion of marital problems that the spouse may not even be aware of!<p>3) Somewhat related to the other two are "if onlys"... If only I'd met you years ago.... If only I weren't married... If only I didn't have kids... The two friends sort of reach an agreement that although they might've made a go of it, circumstances prevent it (very tragic...for now).<p>I think it is "possible" for men and women to have "just friends" relationships. My W has a couple that don't cross any of those lines... she had one that did! She knows where the lines are now.<p>I understand how easy it is to cross them, especially if BOTH "friends" don't understand the areas to avoid. The "friends" may notice when they've gotten way past the line, but at that point they've been drawn too close to each other to stop.<p>Jeffers

My take on this is that men are friends one way and women are friends in a completely different way! Listen to a group of men talking: they talk a lot about things they did together in the past, their work, their hobbies, plans for future achievements. Women talk about themselves, their relationships - romantic, platonic, familial, their feelings. Men don't talk about their feelings to their male friends, unless things are really desperate.<p>So when a woman wants to be friends with a man, and treats him as she would a female friend, trouble starts just about at once. She confides in him about her H or her personal problems, he reads this as a direct expression of interest in him and sees it as a complimentary comparison between him and her H. I've listened to my H and his peer group - wow! They're competing the whole time: who's got the most hair left, who's least grey, who's driving the most beat-up car, who's published the most prestigious paper. And the male drive is to win females, however subconscious this may be. So a woman comes up and starts being friendly, that old Tarzan inside thinks he's winning her...<p>A man who wants to be friends with a woman needs to treat her like another man.