Jack: I hope you don't mind, but I referenced your above post/letter on a separate thread. I for one have learned from it and I believe it will enable me to help my husband in the healing all the better. You have helped me understand, see, and feel things from a BS view all the clearer. Thank you for sharing this. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Jack - welcome to a great place, sorry to meet you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think you've gotten some terrific insights already. You've gotten a range of thoughts, from tutter's suggestion for the heart-to-heart to DRS's keep-your-distance. As is sometimes the case here, there's more than one right answer. I'm choosing the "time" approach and never intending to contact OM again. He does not deserve my attention. But this may not be right for you. What we try to do here is help you figure it out on your own.<p>So, you're not alone and you can consider yourself fortunate to be recovering. I wish you the best. When the time is right, it may be successful to point your W here, but maybe not yet - and yes, she should be doting on you.<p>A terrific letter. As a data point, the pain I felt was far, far worse than the pain of losing my son. 'Nuff said on that.

Thanks all, for the encouragement, it seems so much easier to accept things intellectually than emotionally. I have thought about hypnosis, meditation, some kind of trauma traetment called EMDR, and you name it. I am still so reluctant to "burden" my wife with my suffering since her low self esteem was in my humble opinion one of the factors which lead to this whole thing. I guess it is in everyone's best interest, if recovery is the goal, to let her off the hook as easily as possible. So its a contest of sorts between the need to express how I feel and the need to let her recover. I haven't probed too much of the deatils for this reason, it upsets her greatly. I figure I know who it was, when it started, when it ended, and assume there no limits as to activities. She said the sex was "stinky" right fromthe start. Stange word for a hot affair I thought but she has consistently told me he had numerous problems sexually and that I was by far the best of lovers. Told her close girl friend the same, so it was confirmed, and according to my wife she even told her affair partner the same thing. Also told him from the get go not to expect any future,she would never leave me. We have had more great lovemaking in the last 4 months, it has been incredible. She always tells me I am the best, I like believing it anyway but I think I do believe it for real. I said to her the other night after we made love that no matter what she did she or who she did it with that in my heart I knew it could never have been the same as it is with us. She said emphatically, how could it possibly be? I sure hope she never goes off the rails again.<p>Jeff

Tutter13-
What is meant by posting on "another thread?"<p>Jack

I started a new post addressed to "WS (and other)". Inside that message I reference your message and give a quick link to it suggesting that people read it because it is very informative. I didn't think you would mind that.

Tutter13-
Of course I don't mind I am just brand new at this computer stuff and didn't know what it meant.
Jack

Not a problem. It was just that I gained a lot of wonderful insight from your letter that I thought it would be good to try to bring it to the attention of others, who were perhaps not following this one. <p>In any event, I still think you should give it to her. You express things so clearly and completely, but gently. I hope it goes well for you. Take care, and keep us posted.

Jack,<p>I realize you are not sure about giving this letter to your W, but I really think you should. Why? Well, this is going to sound very strange, but the letter is her blueprint to helping you and by doing so helping herself. In fact, my guess is if she reads this letter carefully and lets you open up to her as you have done here, SHE will be the one healed the fastest, NOT you.<p>You see, by telling her what you need, what you feel, and what she can do, you take the pressure off of her. She doesn't have to guess. She knows your deepest thoughts and they are not thoughts of hate, vengence, anger. She will see that ALL you really need is her help and things will not only be like they were, they will be much better in your marriage than they ever have been.<p>This isn't about guilt and I think if she can see this or you tell her this before you give it to her, she will see. It isn't about forgiveness, it is simply needing help and asking the one person in all of the world that can help.<p>Think about it Jack. I am sure the letter will touch her, and I am sure you will see tears, but Jack this is the roadmap for you two to really grow together in ways neither have been before. <p>Don't keep her in the dark here. Help her by giving her this letter.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

I gave it to her at lunch, we are going to dinner tonight.<p>Jack

Good luck to you Jack! Let us know how it works out!

Jack, <p>Excellent letter!!! I'm one of those posters who could stand to read it, it verbalizes many feelings that need to be shared with the WS and explain that its still Ok to "possibly" still hurt us just a little bit more....but with a much bigger gain in the end.<p>My W doesn't want to talk about it either, should she and I open to eachother as your letter requests of your W, it wouldn't hurt as much as be a relief......<p>Knowing the best will happen for the two of you...<p>Good luck.
DRS

Letter went over pretty well, but spouse still doesn't get it. I think it is like a woman trying to explain the pain of child birth to a man. We can only imagine it. Spouse feels like, hey I choose you, don't you feel like the winner? I'll never do anything like this ever again, it was worst mistake of my life, I never stopped loving you, I love only you, etc. I am beginning to understand why in the light of such sentiment she is frustrated or even unsympathetic to my pain. I am frustrated and unsympathetic to myself! It seems silly. I want to be like one of those steely relief pitchers in baseball who gives up the game winning hom run one day and shakes it off and is back out there the next day saying that was yesterday today is today I got a new game to pitch. What is the alternative? The pitcher who is so eternally distraught by his blunder that he comes apart at the seams, never pitches well again and is soon gone from the game? Wife and I went to dinner last night, parked the car at the beach, she swung around sideways in the front seat and we cuddled and dozed off for an hour or two. Then we drove home and made the sweetest love on earth. What more do I want ? <p>Jack

Jack,<p>Now try to give it some time, She probably got more than you think. You've told her you want to be vulnerable, but she still needs you to meet her needs. What does that mean, be vulnerable in a strong way. <p>Recall the His Needs, Her Needs from the MB. One of which is conversation....<p>Please don't expect her to analyze your feelings with you. Analysis is a man characteristic, women tend to just accept things for what they are. I read this from the book, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.<p>By the way, in that book the author suggests writting Love leters that explain our feelings. just as you did. It also suggests that besides writing your letter you also write the response you expect, or expected, this will clarifiy to you what you were expecting her to do or say. At this point you might think about asking her "If you were to wite me a letter, what would you say?"<p>Writing the letter allows the person to think about it first, writing it (say it), but not have to worry about encountering(or countering) a spoken response such as you would in conversation. The letter can be written in less Confilct, then shared later...<p>My sense is you've done more than you think, <p>Good Luck<p>DRS

Jack,<p>Now try to give it some time, She probably got more than you think. You've told her you want to be vulnerable, but she still needs you to meet her needs. What does that mean, be vulnerable in a strong way. <p>Recall the His Needs, Her Needs from the MB. One of which is conversation....<p>Please don't expect her to analyze your feelings with you. Analysis is a man characteristic, women tend to just accept things for what they are. I read this from the book, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.<p>By the way, in that book the author suggests writting Love leters that explain our feelings. just as you did. It also suggests that besides writing your letter you also write the response you expect, or expected, this will clarifiy to you what you were expecting her to do or say. At this point you might think about asking her "If you were to wite me a letter, what would you say?"<p>Writing the letter allows the person to think about it first, writing it (say it), but not have to worry about encountering(or countering) a spoken response such as you would in conversation. The letter can be written in less Confilct, then shared later...<p>My sense is you've done more than you think, <p>Good Luck<p>DRS

Jack -<p>I have to agree with DRS. I think you have had a greater impact that is evident. Give her time to digest all of what you wrote. It's a lot to take in and evern more to try to apply yourself to. She needs to be able to think about it, analyze it, hear it (in her mind), probably reread it, digest all of it's true meaning, and use it in herself to the benefit of the both of you and your marriage. In furtherance, maybe you could suggest to her that if she has thoughts on it that she's uncertain on how to voice, or is having trouble with actually talking about it, she could write you back. My husband and I found at some points when it was difficult to actually "talk" for one reason or another, that writing letters worked even better. We were then able to discuss them later in a much clearer light.<p>I think you did great. Keep up the good job and remember it will take time to trudge through all of this. Take care.

I really appreciate the encouragement and feedback on the letter, I sent it to another friend who e-mailed to someone who sent it to a support group etc, and it is getting a lot of circulation! This internet stuff is something else. Great way to meet friends and share thoughts and feelings. What did you folks think about the "loyalty" letter ? Harley suggests sending one and mine seemed pretty tame, but spouse is not interested and I am not pushing. Should I ? I'll paste it below in case you haven't seen it, maybe it'll be another "bestseller."<p>Jack<p>draft letter:<p>Dear OM,<p>I want to more formally apologize to you for telling you that I loved you and for my part in the terrible wrong we committed and the harm we caused to a wonderful and decent man who loved and trusted us both. In the months that have passed I have come to realize now more than ever that I have only truly loved one man in my life and he is my husband. <p>Despite the wrongfulness of our actions, I think you are basically a good person and that like me you never planned to hurt anyone. We were just two very needy people acting selfishly. It is unfortunate that we allowed a genuine friendship to overtake us and become something so immorally harmful to us all. Please do not reply to this letter and respect my request that we continue to have no further contact. <p>Sincerely,<p>WS

Jack:<p>I would remove:<p>1) the apology. OM doesn't deserve one. And you don't want to hear him "try" to apologize for what he's done, either. You want him GONE.
2) anything that might imply, however weakly, any kind of "bond" with OM (e.g. "the harm WE caused")
3) the "good person" and "needy people" comments. Think about this. Even if is a good person (and I can't believe he is), what he did to your M was very, very cruel, whether he realized it at the time or not. You don't need to make him feel better about himself. He needs to do that on his own. It's none of your business and you're none of his business. Sorry, but he is "guilty" for what he did, so let him feel guilty ALONE!<p>The stuff about how you and your S feel about each other is good, but I'd even take out the "please" part of the "do not reply to this email." Your W will make you feel a lot better if she severs this R completely, cleanly, and without any subtle hints (unintentional, to be sure) that there was any spark of good about the A or the people involved. I know this includes your W, but as I pointed out on another thread, you have a history with your W and so a vested interest in rebuilding trust and respect in HER, but jettison the OM as succinctly as possible. Stop caring about how he feels.<p>Sorry about the vent, but that's what I would(will) do in my own situation.

2long
I appreciate your advice, your edit is great, I was faced with the difficult task of constructing something my wife would sign so it was a lot tamer than I would like. Its been four months so I am going to drop it. She broke it off cleanly by telephone the night I found out with me present. The next day she called him but tried to reach me first to let me know and told me the same day. She said that she needed some closure and the phone call according the bill which I obtained was only six miuntes. Thereafter no contact I know of until two months had passed, he approached her while she was walking the dog and asked to talk, she said' "can't" and kept walking, he said can I call from time to time, she said no and kept walking, he said, "I'll always love you. " Then nothing until a social situation came up and he called to say he would not attend so as not to make anyone uncomfortable, wife chatted briefly, don't know how long,but she said they exchanged some how are yous until she said I gotta go, but important thing is this was reported to me. So I am chilling out, I think she is doing it right. I also tend to think that I shouldn't see him either. Let him stew.<p>Jack

Jack:<p>Sounds like a good idea, abandoning that letter at this point. Since she's already, in effect, broken contact herself, there's no point in sending an email letter that isn't brutally to the point that no longer needs to be made anyway.<p>Good luck to you! I wish I was there in my own situation, but I think I'm just going to have to let OM fade at my W's rate, unless that is longer than my "deadline" for Plan A to do it's thing - when we move back into our house in 6 months.

<< but important thing is this was reported to me. >><p>Absolutely! Don't lose site of the positive things she does. Don't ignore the negative, because it's important to correct them productively, but still don't ignore the positive.<p>You are doing great Jack. You are learning a lot - from us and from yourself through this board. Keep up the good work. <p>Take care.