Dear Jack!<p>I've been thinking about your situation, and wondering if I should post to you... but I don't think I have any really brilliant insight to offer (sorry).<p>My WS husband had an 18-month affair with his friend's wife. The fact that this was a double betrayal made it all the worse. My WH was **total scum** in my eyes ... for a long time. My WH grew up living across the street from OW's husband. They shared their entire boyhood and all those memories kept them in contact long after boyhood ended. They remained friends all through adulthood.<p>There is no repairing their friendship ... and that is a guilt and a heaviness my WH will carry on his soul forever.<p>We have recovered our marriage(6 years into recovery now)... and WH has grown into a better man ... As he recovered as a man, his grievous behaviour became more acutely painful for him. The fog lifted and he despised his sin, he despised the hurt he had caused, and he would be willing to do what ever it takes to un-do the damage to their friendship. But, alas, that is impossible.<p>Last Christmas, we contemplated sending that family a Christmas card ... but, Mr. Pepper decided that it might cause more pain ... it eats at him ... and will eat at him the rest of his life.<p>He had to build his self-respect back up from a negative value.<p>I am sure your marriage will recover... and you will be OKAY. I'm also sure you must grieve the loss of the friendship .... and that the friendship is likely lost to you forever.<p>What a G_damn stupid waste affairs are! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hope you are taking care of yourself, and making a little progress every day.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

What a great thread!<p>By the way, my W cheated with one of my best friends, who was a neighbor.<p>Jack, sounds like you got things really going well. I bet a lot of the rest of us wish we were in your place (that could only be said in a group like this... LOL)

Thanks Pepper, you probably think I am either nuts or a glutton for punishment regarding my friend and I appreciate your description of your WH and his friend. But here's what troubles me, I accept the reality and prevalence of affairs, I guess it really can happen to anybody, many factors were present with my wife, the whole recipe if you read the books, but I love her, she was weak, and I forgave her. So why is my friend any different? Like my wife he had the recipe as well, and my wife is pretty special, I hate to think of the wrongs I might be tempted to do for her, and she says she pursued him, maybe its a cover to keep me from going after him but at the very least it wasn't all his doing as much as I would like to believe that for the sake of my ego. So why not take the guy out, buy him a beer, tell him how much I loved him and how much it hurt, but give him a hug and say forget it you screwed up, we're not going to be friends anymore but let your suffering end now and move on, you're no better or worse of any of God's children than the rest of us. What does the "panel" say?<p>Jack

jack,<p>I you don't want any contact with him, but would sort of like to bury the hatchet, somewhere else than between his ears. Then perhaps a note, saying something to the effect, I don't want to see you again, but I forgive you. Live in peace.<p>Signed <p>Jack<p>Is that the kind of closure you are looking for?? You realize that since you started this thread your approach to the OM has changed considerably. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] What has changed in your perspective in the last few days? I think many here could benefit from hearing what you are thinking.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Jack,<p>You should feel free to forgive your old friend. But let me tell you, it may not work out great in the end. I had the opportunity one year after D-day to talk to my old friend and he came begging and crying to me in a parking lot saying how sorry he was. I had prayed a lot about this moment coming and hoped God would give me the strength to forgive. As it turned out, God did give me the strenght and I told him I forgave him and asked that he please go through life without hurting anyone else they way he hurt me. He thnked me, wiped away his tears and left. I wish the story ended there... I didn't. This past January I found out he was seeing my wife again!! After I busted my W, she agreed to write a no contact letter and I delivered it to him. When I gave it to him I asked him not to speak, and told him that he asked for forgiveness and then threw it in my face. He promised to not hurt anyone again, yet he did it again to me.<p>In my opinion, when a "friend" turns on you in this way and has an affair with your W, he is beyond twisted. This time, I will forgive in my heart, but make sure he knows that hell will rain down on him if he comes around my W again. If you give this guy an "out" on his guilt, you simply increase the odds that he will do it again.<p>That is my harsh opinion and it comes from getting slapped around by life one too many times. And by the way, for all the people that think that just because a women says a guy is scum, she won't drift back with him, you are wrong and there are plenty of other stories on this site that prove that time and again. Love your wife, forgive the OM, but don't ever let your guard down.

jack, <p>I read with interest how you are coming around to not continuing contact with your friend. But it also seems to me you want him to know he lost a good friendship and that you would feel better if HE suffered because of it ("Let him stew"). He should know it already, if not, he wasn't really that close of a friend to begin with. I sense he has already decided you don't matter to him, <p>"Let him stew" Why does it matter? He is not a loose end to tieup. You have enough to work on at home. <p>He approached her while she was walking the dog? If you all live that close together you might want to consider moving away. People are people, and somethimes we are stronger than other times. While he is trying to avoid ackward situations, He may just be holding out hope for a weaker moment in the future. I subscribe to Dr. H's no, absolutely no contact.<p>Time will tell, keep creating the Love Bank deposits....<p>DRS

JL- Yes that is a fair question, I should perhaps have provided more details regarding the story but this was my first time on the internet so I just jumped right in. So let me give the thumbnail sketch, Friend was good buddy, spent a lot of time at my place, with his wife at first but his marriage was crumbling. Affair started two years ago, the first instance was a drunken thing, we were all plastered at a beach hosue on vacation, what happened next I don't know but I guess the ice was broken, and it went on for two years. I was totally clueless, we even went back to the same beach house the following summer and shared holidays etc. How they found the time I don't know but it must've been a daytime thing. My wife and I were 'doing great' at least I thought. Great sex, nice trips, no fights, seemed like it always did. I found out quite by accident four months ago when I tried to surprise her at a restauarnt she said she was going to and wasn't there. Smelled a rat, confronted, fell off my chair in shock. Never considerd leaving,just knew it had to be fixed. She called that night, broke it off and kept the no contact pledge ever since. We went to Retrovaille,just ending, counseling is continuing and are getting on pretty well. I think I knew from the start that because of the friend this was like getting kicked in both shins, one was healing the other needed treatment if I was going to walk again. When Christmas came around I sent the friend a card and said I forgive you. He sent one back but it fell short of an apology, more like thank you for the card have a happy new year. I was disappointed but I could see my wife's opinion of him lower a bit and contented myself with that. I think he waited for my wife to come back and didn't think we could get over this but she surprised him. She rebuffed an attempt at communication after two months and told me about it same day. Now it still hangs like unfinished business and I am all over the map. Angry one minute then forgiving the next. In some ways I think I want to see him because I have a need to return to the pre-affair state of existence and/or reassert some form of dominance or at least display no fear. Right now he is like the boogeyman and the hairs stand up on the back of my neck when we pass on the street. Our commmunity is small , we will all be here for many years and i think I just want to "regularize" him in some way. I think he is too mortified to face me but not everyone has my capacity or inclination to fix things. My wife was the same way, if I hadn't jumped in and "managed" the recovery who knows where we would be, she was hurting too much and just not up to it. So maybe my friend isn't either. But maybe its ok to have a person who you'll never speak to again, but I never had an enemy or relative like that. I always patch things up right away. So this is new for me, and uncomfortable. But as much as it hurts I have to remember that people forgive murderers, and adultery is hardly murder. (might feel worse!)So I have these wispy moments where I think I'll give him a big hug and say fuggedaboutit you big dope! Its not like the guy has lived a life of crime or been a bad little league coach or father or neighbor anymore than this affair renders my wife a total dirtbag for life. So today I feel like the pacifist, tomorrow I will be dangling him by the heels over a pool of sharks waving goodbye while I lower the winch.<p>Jack

Conan,<p>Wow! Nice wake up call! Thanks I needed that. My fear of this guy is exactly why I want to face him I think, partly to show him I am not intimidated, partly to gather intelligence,and partly to give him the opportunity which I think he will take to apologize. Wise people have simply said, forget him period. I am leery about a return situation, I just can not belive after all the retrovaille and counseling and changing that it could happen, but heroin is heroin, and what scares me obviously is that I never would have thought it possible in the first place. EVen after all this time and healing I still daydream about intstalling a phone tap! Its great talking with you, I am so sorry you had to put up with this twice, I don't think I could. What are you doing to get help?<p>Jack

Jack,<p>Since you have already sent him a card saying you forgive him, then my take on this is: It's his loss.<p>I had a friend from college that ended up living in the same small town I live in. We were not really really close but fairly close. One day, he tried to pull something in the organization I was involved with and I called him on it. The next thing I know he has sent letters around the town trying to ruin my reputation. I sent him a registered letter he never picked up. <p>We don't speak and my guess we never will. I have far more friends here than he does, and I don't care. There is a quote that was used by someone as their sign off line by Weizman (I believe).<p>"The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference."<p>I don't hate this guy, I am just indifferent. If forced to speak to him I would, but so far every social function that we have attended he stays as far from me as he can. His choice, I don't care. I know what can of a man he is and it isn't the kind that I care to call a friend. Don't hate him, just don't care about him.<p>Why do I say this to you. It seems to me you extended the olive branch, but it was rejected. It seems that he avoids you. I think we both know why. THe important thing is that he avoid your W.
You have indeed lived a charmed life if this is your first failed friendship. <p>I understand your reluctance to have an enemy, but what you didn't know was that you had two: your W and your friend. Your W turned around, your friend did not. His choice and not your worry.<p>I often use this saying when addressing this subject because I like you, and most people don't like having enemies. But the saying is this:<p>"Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate." <p>Your friend is not someone you can trust, why? Because he did you wrong? NO! Because unlike your W he never came back and accepted your forgiveness. That my friend is unpardonable. <p>God Bless,<p>JL

All-<p>I'm going to sleep on this, I really appreciate your counsel, it is a gift, I had no idea when I logged in that this kind of dialog could take place. I feel like I am meeting with the "tribal elders." Before I go, are there any touchy feely softies out there? or should I just forget the soonofa***** ! See you tomorrow,<p>JACK

Jack:<p>I actually like the idea of burying the hatchet between OM's ears. It gives you the options of which way to get there from, through his forehead or the back of his head. ...but murder is still somewhat frowned on, I guess. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>That's why, a couple of times I've said that I wouldn't want to get violent with my W's OM, but I wouldn't mind dropping a small asteroid on his house. Nothing big enough to cause a global extinction event, but maybe just enough to produce a nice, bowl-shaped crater about 2 miles across that we could all buy tickets to look down into on the weekends. Of course, that would be fine for me because OM lives in another state. You would have to make sure that OM not only lives at least 1 mile from you, but that he lives a few more miles from you, so's you don't get buried by the ejecta! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Jack, <p>A touchy feely idea. You will feel better about youself if you do not lower yourself to his level. <p>have a good nite's rest<p>DRS

2long!<p>I'm visualizing a hatchet imbedded in Mr. Pepper's skull now [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] thanks to you!!!!<p>LOL!<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

He does not deserve your effort. You wrote the card, he didn't respond. And he tried to continue contact with your wife after she broke it off with him. No he doesn't deserve it, cut him off and just don't think about him. No contact with him is worth it, it won't make you feel better, in fact only worse when he rejects you. And it just gives him an opening with your wife if they bump into each other- "Let me tell you about the conversation I had with Jack..."
Just remember you won, you have your wife, (and he knows you're the better lover- may be petty, but not such a bad feeling). He lost, he lost your wife and he lost your friendship- as a consequence of his own actions. He does not deserve your love, not your consideration.

Damnit Jack!!!! Just drop it with the guy. You heard my story and the counsel of others... listen. I am sorry to push you on this, but I hate the idea that you are going to make, what I think, is a big mistake. You made a mistake picking this guy as a friend, don't make it a second time. I believe it is best for you to forgive him in your heart, but that does not mean you have to be his best buddy at the cost of your own ruination!! You already told him you forgave him... what the hell more do you want?!!<p>The damn guy already tried to get her back, right? Please listen to the advice you are given and move on with your healing... it will not be found by trying to repair your relationship with your ex-friend. He does not have to be your enemy, he is just someone you have learned to not have in your life. You are not seeking revenge, although I am sure it has crossed your mind if you are anything like me. And if you see him in a burning car, feel free to pull him out, but you don't have to destroy your life for him. And I think letting this guy be any part of your life will eventually destroy you. Remember how I said to not put too much weight on what your wife says about him being a jerk. My Wife said all that stuff and my ex-friend is hated by everybody I know and they don't even know about the affair. He is a giant a**hole! But my wife allowed him to reconnect with him and risk losing her family. By the way, my wife told me that she "didn't know why she did it" and she even had said to my ex-friend how I couldn't be doing any more than I was to make her happy. So why did he and she do it again... because they have severe character flaws. I know that and have decided to see if I can work through the issues with my wife. But why the hell would you take on that baggage for this ex-friend jerk who stabbed you in the back and had sex with your wife.<p>Wake up Jack!!!<p>God, I wish someone told me this a couple years ago. You know, maybe they did and I just ignored them like you are doing to many posters here. I pray you don't walk the path I did!!!

Conan:<p>"if you see him in a burning car, feel free to pull him out"<p>Wouldn't this be violating the Prime Directive?<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Ah my new friends, what would I do without these fresh buckets of cold water you keep dousing me with? You know what makes you folks so credible is that you've been there. Why talk to a shrink or a priest with no experience in such weighty matters? You know I am pretty sure my wife agrees with you too, just scrape the barnacle off the hull and sail on. I am sure she regrets the added damage of my losing a good friend whose company I enjoyed but maybe she knows better than I that he was a "friend" I am better off without. Honestly I don't want to be his friend. And I don't mean to equate his worthiness for forgiveness with that of my wife. I firmly believe in the Martian Code, if its your friend's wife you call her a cab, period. I won't bore with all the other aspects of this "friendship" but they are even worse. Long conversations about how we are like brothers and how lucky we are to have each other as buddies, favors and financial help, long talks about love and women including insights into my wife and how much we are in love, hiking and boating, getting high, and much much more, the works. The guy has a reputation for being a dumbell but I feel like I was conned by a pro. I guess part of it is just an incredible wonder at the viciousness of his behavior. My shrink says he is passive-agressive at best, sadist at worst. In a way it helps me not to blame my wife because I feel, hell if I could be fooled by his attentions and affections so can anybody. It reminds me of a good con artist, they never ask the old lady for the money they just keep being nice until the moment comes when they know she will offer it to them and they say "sure," like it was her idea. I really do draw a big distinction between the guy and my wife and I honestly don't think it is just for the sake of my own ego, I see her as a good, wonderful, kind, compassionate, giving, person who was vulnerable, unhappy, and feeling alone, and who acted out of character in making a mistake that is in stark contrast to the way she has lived her life, and as someone who regrets, apologizes, seeks forgiveness and obtains redemption by her recommittment to our love and marriage. I admire her more than she will ever know. In a way this crisis is showing how GREAT of a person she is, not how bad. But I really do see my friend in a different light, as a spoiled brat rich kid whose daddy bought him everything, who takes what he wants or needs honestly or not without regard to anyone else or any standards other than "go for it man" and has lead a selfish selfish life. You want to learn how to be selfish hang out with this guy he'll teach you. So it aint like I don't think he is a bum, he is, sometimes worse than a bum, but then I get this (here i go again) that which ye shall do unto the least of my brethren.... gotta help the weak as well as the strong..... good people don't need forgiveness bad people do.... feeling and I want to reach out. Got any more cold water?<p>Jack

Jack - You don't need cold water, just the validation that the way you are feeling is all apart of the beauty in the person you are. There is nothing wrong with feeling this way. You have a good heart, and you have shown that through your efforts and progress in rebuilding your marriage. It is ok to feel for this person and his fallen life. All you need now and then is the little extra push to feel it in your heart but keep it at that. You know what everyone is saying is true, but you feel for you are such a giving person. That's ok. Forgive in your heart, and let him squander in the fallen life he has chosen to live. You have our support, and we are here whenever you need the extra push to say - it's ok to feel this way, but I know to just let it lie. My best to you Jack. You are doing great.

Jack,<p>You want touchy feely, I can do that. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] No! not really.<p>I guess my thoughts on this are pretty simple minded. He WAS your friend, one of the two closest friends you had on this Earth (your W being the other one). You offered both of them your forgiveness, and one took it. <p>The other did not. You cannot control his life. He does not want your friendship. My guess is he fears you. Why??? Well, because in his mind you are NUTS. He would never do what you did and what you have done makes no sense to him. My experience is that people view people they don't understand as dangerous. He fears you because he doesn't understand you and never did.<p>What does that mean? Well, on the global scale of things that means that most of his "friends" are going to be like him, meaning they will do him in when it is to their advantage. Do you see the sphere coming around again?? I do. It is the old what goes around, comes around thing.<p>You have done what you can, that is all you can do. You two may get another chance at friendship, but it will only come when it is supposed to. YOU cannot force it on him, and in a way you are considering doing just that. FORCING him to face himself and be your friend again. He is not ready and frankly probably won't ever be ready.<p>Meanwhile, you have been most fortunate. Your "best friend", turned enemy, has returned to being your "best friend". She as accepted your forgiveness, she has been willing to accept your gifts (not an easy thing to do really), and she is doing her best to give back to you. <p>Do you have any idea how lucky you really are? How blessed you have been? <p>I sort of view this as a test for you. Are you enlightened enough by all of this to realize your blessings and not push for more (restoration of your friendship)?<p>Think about it.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Good advice and wise counsel as always, maybe I am not as pure and goodhearted as is implied. Maybe I just want to do a "victory dance" and run around around his teepee with my feathered hat on or, again, there is a powerful sense of raw curiousity at play, it is just so damn strange and wierd to me like a two headed snake in the circus freak show, I almost have to look at it again to convince myself that it is real. How do you get away from that how could you why did you why would you shock and disbelief ? But we live in a small community and the chance meeting will occur on its own I suppose like you said and I guess I shouldn't force it whether it would be healing or not.<p>Jack