He is the one with the history of leaving me in the dark so he can spend time with his female co-workers (the most he will admit to.)<p>He went on his own to the Marriagebuilders site and looked for information on how to rebuild trust. When he asked what he could do to rebuild trust, I talked to him at great length about how the most important thing was for him to tell me the truth (the whole truth) and answer my questions fully and honestly.<p>But he refuses to do this. He wants to do this with no pain and no consequences for him. He gives me ridiculous answers that I know for a fact are lies, little tiny parts of answers, or absolutely no answer at all. And anything and everything has to be dragged out of him. He offers *nothing* willingly.<p>And it makes him mad. Mad, mad, mad. I have seen him shake with rage and throw things when I ask him for details about the time he spent with these women.<p>I've asked him many times: "I am only asking you for the truth. Why should the truth make you angry?" He just says, "I don't know."<p>This man has always been the greatest guy in the world. He's the nicest, friendliest, sweetest guy you'd ever want to meet, with no history of violence whatsoever. And I am to the point where I'm afraid he's going to knock me through a wall if I dare ask him for the truth one more time.<p>His rage was at its worst when I asked him if there had ever been any sort of physical or sexual interaction between him and any of these women. When I obviously wasn't convinced, he started roaring and throwing things.<p>Why should the truth make anyone furious?

Because if he admits it to you, he has to admit it to himself and face who he really is.<p>Same problem here. It isn't the lies, coverups, manipulations, rationalizations, justifications, dodges, half-truths, discrepancies, etc., that are the problem. It is my unwillingness to go along with them that is the problem. If I would just trust him and believe him, everything would be okay.<p>Of course, I'd be betraying myself, but I'm SUPPOSED to be betrayed. It isn't a problem for him to betray me, so why should it be a problem for me to betray me?<p>All I can think of to do in these types of cases is to just get on with your life and request that he let you know when he's ready to get real so you can build a relationship together that's worth having. As long as the walls remain up, you will be withdrawing more and more from each other. If that's what he wants, let him have it.<p>No truth, no intimacy. No intimacy, then withdrawal. Enough withdrawal, affair or end of marriage. It's an inescapable cause and effect. It's all a matter of what he wants to cause and effect. And actually, rage will lead to withdrawal as well, so that's his only choice as long as he stays his current course.<p>Hide truth from wife and/or rage at wife -> lose wife. Inevitable. Even if you don't leave in body, you're probably already a lot gone in heart and spirit. He must like the risks involved.<p>[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I am copying the following from a previous response I gave someone. The he's and she's are misplaced as pertaining to your situation, but you will get the idea of what I am explaining. Conquoror is right, it's a matter of having to see ourselves in this raw light. It's not fun, nor easy. <p><< First off, what your wife is feeling seems normal. I've felt that way many times. Here is my analysis of it. . . when we reach a certain point in accepting our main role in all this we begin to be harder on ourselves then our betrayed spouse is. We have taken the time to disect our inner self. To expose the reality of this "evil" and to own the fact that we alone are the cause for such pain, grief, turmoil, etc. It's rather an ugly picture that is painted of us. Then reality hits - if I am actually seeing myself in such a shadow of darkness, my spouse must see me in it too. Ouch!!! Then, the more we disclose and talk about the more we feel we are such an awful person. We fail to realize that instead of seeing us as this evil, vile individual, our spouse actually admires us for being able to open up and really try. That the more we expose, the more vulnerable we make ourselves to ridicule, the more our spouse sees us in this better light. The more our spouse can truly see that we WANT to rebuild. However, our spouse fails to see that we are finally realizing that we weren't there for them when we were supposed to be. We finally see in full light that the one person we promised to love and protect we have caused such pain and hurt. It's alot to stomach. Then we look at all we missed out on. >><p>Hope this helps. Take care.

psycho_b<p>I don't really have anything new to add here but I wanted to say that I totally agree with Conqueror and Tutter. When we admit, explain, describe, and just plain talk about the details, we have to look at the ourselves. This is a very hard thing to do. <p>Admitting to someone else is one thing. It is relatively easy to say "I was wrong". It is quite another thing to talk about specifics. We have to then think about what has been done and examine it. We have to admit to ourselves what we have done.<p>Once we admit to ourselves what we have done (which takes some time), we start to look inside ourselves for the why. Once we do that it is easier (by comparison) to talk about specifics with the BS. It still isn't easy or pleasant but can be done. <p>People who don't want to talk don't want to look inside themselves for the answers because we all know that inside can sometimes be an ugly place. But only by looking at that ugliness can we begin to work on making things beautiful again. It is a process we all have to go through. <p>I know you want answers but they will only come when he is ready to give them to himself.<p>Regretting

Sorry....duplicate post<p>[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Regretting ]</p>

<<<It isn't the lies, coverups, manipulations, rationalizations, justifications, dodges, half-truths, discrepancies, etc., that are the problem. It is my unwillingness to go along with them that is the problem. If I would just trust him and believe him, everything would be okay.<p>Of course, I'd be betraying myself, but I'm SUPPOSED to be betrayed. It isn't a problem for him to betray me, so why should it be a problem for me to betray me?>>><p>I appreciate all of your responses. Conquerer, thank you so much for this. You have hit the nail exactly on the head. He is frustrated and infuriated because I won't accept what little he wants to tell me and be happy with it.<p>He's very, very good at getting everyone else in his life to do whatever he wants, especially those in his work life. It works on everyone else. Why won't it work on me?

Wow!<p>These three "babes" have it nailed, best I can tell.<p>Conqueror, tutter, Regretting: well done.

One other thing: a huge question here was always been, "were these relationships physical/sexual or not?" This is when he gets MAD. He absolutely denies *any* touching whatsoever, other than a handshake, which I know for a fact is complete nonsense.<p>I've told him that even if it's just emotional, it hurts me just as much - but he insists that since he wasn't in love with any of these women (and I do believe that - we are talking about crushes, flings, and physical attractions here, not long-term love) it was not an emotional affair either.<p>So: the point is, if that's all there was, why such a problem with telling me details? Why rage and snarl and risk ending our marriage, if all there is tell me about are a few stupid gifts at work and a few sneaky lunch meetings?<p>Either he did have a sexual relationship with at least one of these women and is so determined not to tell me that he'll go through anything to hide it, or he is being unbelievably cruel to me by letting me suffer this way over nothing.<p>I have never known him to be cruel. Until now.

psycho - hear me out for a minute.<p>I'm gonna be to you what you want from him: honesty.<p>I get the sense you're dwelling on details unnecessarily, to your detriment.<p>A case in point: was it sexual or not?<p>Aside from the health aspect, what does it matter? Certainly you've read that an EA can be more emotionally damaging than a PA. What would you prefer your H do? Have a PA one night stand or have a months long EA? Which would produce the most betrayal? the most lies?<p>I may be way off base and, if I am, I hope your other supporters will correct me. But I get the sense you should let go a bit. Don't hound him for the details! You are in the RIGHT!!! But, as is often asked here, do you wanna be right or do you wanna stay married?<p>OF COURSE "He wants to do this with no pain and no consequences for him." The Mothership demands it!!<p>Will you try relaxing a bit and let him be an alien abductee? He is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! You are RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT!!!<p>Let US fill this need for you. Don't expect it from him right now.<p>Forgive me for being blunt.<p>WAT

My husband does the same thing--he freaks when I ask him for specifics. I tell him that in order to heal, I need the truth. He yells "What is it that you want to know?" I tell him, and he says "You already know everything." I say "Well, what about this? What about that?" And he instead says "Well, where were YOU while I was--allegedly--at Motel 6?" (Sitting home crying) "Who were YOU with?" (With my then three-year-old son who was as confused as I was) "Well, you did this in your first marriage, what are you, Little Miss Perfect?" He says "I guess you just want to fight, huh, you just won't leave it alone."<p>His tactic is to create so much chaos and hollering, naming-calling and turning the blame around, dodging questions by posing his own retarded questions to throw me off guard, that he gets off scott free, once again. I get blamed for "starting fights."<p>All I want is the truth. I doubt that I will ever hear it.<p>I found out a whole lot of the truth by snooping, and finding out the facts. When I readressed his lies (did you sleep with her? Did you ask her to move in with you? Did you tell her that you were so enraptured with her that you were planning on giving me custody of the kid so that you would have an easy way out? (he did, but denies it now) Was she really the "love of your life<" and if not, why did you tell her that she was?) He becomes so angry. "How can you say things like that about me? YOu are a cruel person, you thrive on making me miserable!" When I say that apparently I have proof the actual events of his affair, he says "Well, how would you life me to address some "truths" about you?!" <p>Like that's a threat. . .I am an open book, and he knows everything about me. I've been an idiot in my lifetime, but the difference between him and me is that I can admit it and talk about it. <p>I tell him to go ahead and address my "truths."<p>Still, my questions never get answered, and we are always back to square one.

WAT, You are so right on, dude.

In my opinion, without truth there can be no real healing and no real relationship. However, the truth may take time. Remember, these cheating spouses are liers!!! They are also typically very good at it. They deny, blame, change the subject, etc. These are all tricks of an untruthful person. It is like second nature to them.<p>For me, I have given her two chances (after two D-days) to tell me the truth. In both cases, I had evidence. Without the evidence, she would never have given me the truth she did. But, I don't really believe it is the whole truth and that makes recovery hard. Sadly, I am in the process of discovering more lies and gathering evidence... this sucks. In the meantime, I am in Plan A. After I get some more evidence, I will decide when to confront her again and give her a chance to "come clean". If she fails again, then I think I have to decide if this is the type of lie I want. And I do NOT think this is the life I want in my M. But you have to decide what is right for you.<p>Good luck.

WAT, I'm going to 'correct' you on one point. While it is obvious that psycho_b's H is not responding appropriately and she is apparently wasting her time and energy on this particular mode of pursuit of the truth, obtaining the truth matters especially in a case like this because it is a power issue and the withholding of it is a weapon used to bludgeon and keep in subjection the deceived spouse.<p>Our need for the truth is a healthy one because we KNOW that the reason we are being denied it is because we are supposed to be one-man down in the R for people like our Hs. They do not want an equal partnership--they want a dictatorship. When my H did turn over some of the details, it was an indication to me that he was ready for me to be an equal partner in that information and those events that affected my life every bit as much as his. His turning the truth over to me acknowledges my rights and status in the R.<p>We instinctively know that we cannot be safe with someone who assigns you second-class status in the R. They want you to be insecure and unsure so they can control you. Without full disclosure, we know that the truth habit has not been established and that we are in constant danger of continued betrayal.<p>Why they get off on this I do not know. Maybe they think we'll dance all over the place trying to keep them happy in hopes that they won't cheat on us again. Maybe they think keeping that threat in the wings will keep us on our toes meeting all their needs and wants. However, that doesn't work for very long, and we end up resenting the manipulation and withdrawing in order to provide ourselves the security they are withholding.<p>Apparently my H would rather lose the R than to do the simple act of explaining himself. He is cutting off his nose to spite his face, and I am seemingly powerless to help him see the light. Most important, deception breeds deception. In striving to establish that desperately needed equality, it is very easy for the BS to follow suit and withhold features of their lives as a safety measure. And when they won't talk about the issues when you have such a great need to talk about it, then the stage is set for another A.

Conqueror - thanks for the correction and your insight. We may be in violent agreement - with you providing a better explanation for psycho_b. You have validated her need. I was attempting to lessen it temporarily.<p>What I was attempting to help her with, and possibly not explaining fully enough, was a suggestion for her to deal with her frustration today, in hopes that eventually she'll get better answers from her H. In other words, IMHO, he's not yet to the point of being willing to fess up and psycho_b shouldn't expect him to be. Pushing for honesty now is futile. Later, the truth is more likely to come.<p>WAT

I am in full and total agreement with WAT on this issue. I am one who "needed to know" at any cost. I was obnoxious about it and relentless in my pursuit of the truth. I badgered and harassed and begged and pleaded, insiste and demanded. Nothing worked. Some wise person here told me to let go of the need to know and work on the marriage and the truth would come in time. They were 100% right about it. Sometimes the truth is elusive while you search for it and letting go often brings results. IMHO [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

While I see, understand, and support the views that have been explained by the BS's here, I think it will help some if I can try to explain things from the WS view. Mind you, I have come past this point in my marriage and have taken the time to answer all of these grueling questions from my husband - even the ones that were the most difficult to answer.<p>I think that for some, even maybe most, but I'm sure not all, it's not really a matter of control we are seaking at this point. Once the truth is out and you know the base points there is not really a means for control. It's out, the cards are on the table. Ok, so you know, let's be done with it. Why? Why do we want to be done with it so quickly? It's easier. I hate to say it, but that's the truth. You see, in order for us to answer these questions in all honesty we have to be able to make ourselves vulnerable to you. We have to open a womb we have created and leave it visable to you to do as you please with it (even pour salt on it if you like). However, once we open this womb we are acknowledging to ourselves the destructive path we ventured. We are looking the skeletins in our closet eye to eye (socket [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) and that's not easy to do. We have to look deep inside of ourselves and disect our very being. We have to admit to ourselves what it is that allowed us to be capable of becoming such a low vile person. We have to see ourselves in the darkest of shadows. We not only have to see your pain, we have to feel it to its depths. We have to sink into our destruction and live it now as it shows it's ugly face. We have to give you ALL the choices and decisions to make. Sure, we made the decisions for so long, and we are truly sorry for that, but now we have to look reality down the barrel of it's gun and see what we risked and wonder if in the end we will be able to put all the pieces back together right. Then, after all that is done, we are left with a shred of a person that we used to be, trying to find how to be that person again, cringing at the person we had become, and realizing that our spouse now sees this horrible person we had become as clear as we see him/her ourself. It's not easy. It's not fun. It's quite difficult and sad. However, we fail to see that our spouse respects us for this acknowledgment. Our spouse sees this vulnerablity as a step toward the good person we were.<p>We cannot fully understand the need to know all, but we do have to come to the point that we simple accept that it's part of the healing and necessary in order to move on. Sort of like the BS will never fully understand the why. You may know the why, but will never fully understand because you yourself cannot conceive the concept of ever doing that. Don't get me wrong, that's a good thing. I guess some of this accepting is part of faith. Yes, there are many questions that need to be answered, but remember the path to those answers are hard for you both. I once told my husband that my pain comes from his pain. That I hurt because I have caused him so much pain. I said "I did this to you. My actions, my choices, my decisions! And your pain is a direct result of MY decision. I gave you this hurt, this anger, this confusion, but I can't take it away." He looked at me and I think for the first time saw in my face and tears that I really do FEEL HIS pain.<p>I don't know how much this will help. I know every case is different. This is just from my experience. It will take time. I wish you well, and I pray that you and yours get to this point together.

psychob... I am sorry for your name...is that what your h calls you.. . why the terrible name. YOu are not psycho... your h sounds like my old boss... a mr. wonderful flirtatous self assured good man who liked to make himself feel better by having the girls at work bat their eyes at him... but when he wanted that from me...my ex boss... I did not comply... I wsa real happy with the friendship mode... and the nice way he treated me...which was wonderful and made him a nice boss... complimenting and respecting my work... but when he made comments about my looks, etc... I started to feel bad... also I knew he was eyeing me... it even came to a point... since my h was being very irresponsible at the time... that this happened... and for a few weeks... I started to think... I wonder what if? now, I started to slap myself when I thought that... since I am very faithful... I knew he had a wife and two boys... and I respected that... and I was interested in being treated better... at the time... but not by a married... man... sure if he and I were single... well it might have been more... but he did seem willing... I started to talk more about my h and my kids...positively... when he tried to just chat with me... etc... and that made things better... he was very charming... like your h I suspect... later when it was evident I would not be th e office fling... he hired another more likely candidate... and office rumors started to fly...he traveled a lot and with her... always with good reason... ha... well I suspected...more... but there was never proof... but this man had an issue with wanting female admiration... and part of it maybe ... wife was too busy with boys and not as adoring as she once was? could that be the case? Try to think about his emotional needs, and love busters... have you done the surveys... this really reminded me of my old boss.<p>Hopefully these are ethical women married and with no thought of more... but it not... worry.. and do not believe his cover... you know he is covering more.. these are HIS ISSUES>.. but think about why he wants these needs met at work and what the issue is.. and then if you want to plan a and meet these needs? thanks and I am sorry for your situation... I always felt so sorry for the unknowing sweet kind, wife of my old boss...I did eventually meet her... and I was very kind to her... as I made clear to my boss I would only be friends... and only a little... of a friendship anyway.. no lines crossed... then I think he too felt safer with me.. and better about himself.. but I had to draw the line.. being that I knew I would not do more... sadly I think for men it is even harder with the biological issues... and admiration issues... they have.<p>Hugs, H [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> Pushing for honesty now is futile. Later, the truth is more likely to come.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I fully agree that pushing for the truth from someone who does not want to relinquish it is an exercise in futility.<p>Holding on to the truth is also an exercise in futility because doing so is likely to push the deceived spouse farther away, and the deceiver ultimately will end up with less control rather than more.<p>The problem is that later may be too late.<p>The only thing I can think of to do in such cases is to let the deceiver know that while you do want and need the truth from them, you are well aware that you cannot force them into full disclosure. However, they can be informed of the natural consequences of the choice to withhold--increased distance between spouses and deterioration of the M.<p>Tutter,<p>I accept your version as the basic one. However, I believe in cases like mine and psycho_b's we are married to very controlling men and this is a feature of this part of the process. I believe underlying the control issue is everything you described, but in their case, control is how they deal with anything they don't like or are uncomfortable with--this just happens to be one of them. So for someone with that basic personality type, it may be even more difficult for them to turn over that control by opening up.

Again, thanks to all of you for your responses. <p>WAT, you are right, pushing too hard yields nothing from someone not ready to give it to you - I have already done what Conquerer suggested and told H exactly what is needed to begin the healing process, which is answering my questions and bringing me things like pictures, gifts and cards received, etc. That the sooner he is willing to do this the sooner whe can start to heal. That it is not being done to punish him, believe it or not; it is solely being done to help me, so that I am no longer in the dark.<p>To Honey: you may very well have worked for my H. And you may have thought I was "sweet and kind" at the time! No, he has never called me Psycho_B*tch. But that's his name for any other crazy controlling woman, so once I finally got made enough to start fighting this stuff that's the screen name I wanted.<p>thanks again
PB

i want you all to know i plan on sitting husband down when he gets home tonight to have him read this. <p>i dont think i could have ever explained this like you guys have. thank you.