Spacecase,<p>The old saying is, "Pray for peace, but prepare for War."<p>Do you see the point? Also, you ever noticed the hand positions when someone bows prior to a karate match? The right fist is covered by the left hand and both are presented in front of the chest. The idea is the same.

2Long;
I think you're right and I may be a bit out of tune with you because since my W and I HAVE been able to make some serious progress on some of the LBs and ENs we were doing, perhaps it seemed to me that you might be in the same place, but it appears you are not. In my case, I think we've gone about as far as we can in "fixing" things while the A continues, and that's why I feel the next steps have to be towards reaching the goal of ending the A.
I did not mean to imply that you had sex/money/future problems, I was just using them as examples of the types of problems some couples have to address in recovery, and that I feel that you can only go so far with those fixes before the A ends.

SC:<p>You're right. I think our R is doing pretty well right now, but our M is still in question, particularly for the long term. That make sense at all?<p>No offense taken about the futures issues. <p>Well, got to go help move more stuff!

Spacecase,<p>I'm not really planning on returning to the boards (i.e. no new patients), but it looks like you've been getting good advice. I'd also advise you to call the Harley's and start counseling (no, I don't get a kickback... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>I would NOT send the letter. It comes across as a selfish demand and disrespectful judgement. You're teaching and cajoling---both of which are unattractive, especially in written form. If you want to address this, I'd suggest that you bone up on the Policy of Joint Agreement (and how to make negotiations safe and pleasant), and approach your wife with a "this is how I feel, and do you think we can come up with a good solution to deal with it". If you can---super. If not, you will have demonstrated your excellent negotiation skills (even though you won't get squat) and showed her that even though you discussed a difficult situation, you didn't lovebust.<p>Other issues I see with your marriage are centered around the "Rule of Time". You need to be spending a lot (15+ hours/week) together. You've got to figure out a way to spend time with her AND make it nice and fun (my wife never thought marriage discussions were "fun", BTW...)<p>So, practice the POJA (even tho she's not agreeing---a one-sided POJA is "never benefit at my spouse's expense"), and see if you can get time with her. And give the Harley's a call.<p>Plan B is never a weapon. You want to transition to Plan B just before you've lost your love for your wife---don't wait too long (you'll be thinking Plan "D"). That's one thing the Harley's do a good job with: they assess your efforts and keep tabs on how you feel about the marriage, and they'll move you to Plan B before it's too late.

Thanks, K. I believe I will give the Harley's a call and try to formulate a more cohesive plan. I sincerely appreciate the input.

OK, here's an idea....since my WW does not want to admit the EA is ongoing, what if, for the sake of argument, I simply proceed on the basis that it has ended? Something like this:<p>OK, you say it's over, great! glad to hear it!We'll proceed on that basis. Now we need to move to the next steps toward recovery. What do you want to do to insure that no contact will be made between you and OM?<p>What changes do you think we need to make in our lives to insure that the activities that were hidden before are no longer hidden? <p>How do you want to address the issues that the A has caused our marriage and my feelings?<p>What do you think we need to do to make sure the environment that enabled the A to occur will not occur again?<p>And so on...down the MB path to recovery....<p>Why not? This could work...couldn't it? I mean why press the issue of admitting and ending the A, if through more positive reinforcement and moving down the path to recovery would all but ensure that the situation under which the A is possible can be eliminated...<p>Maybe I'm nuts....but it COULD work...ideas?

SC:<p>Darn, this is frustrating, working over the phone lines. Going to take another day to try to get our DSL working.<p>SC. I think that COULD work. It's certainly better than doing nothing. However, my "plan" to shelve OM issues today with MC backfired. I'll explain on a new thread.<p>Not necessarily bad, though.

I am very interested to see what happened to 2long after the MC session.<p>As far as the idea of proceeding as if there is no affair, all I can tell you is that I did that because I actually believed it was true!! As we all know, I was wrong.<p>You can try that strategy, but I think you are in the same boat as me. She may continue to just have the affair anyway. But basically, I am doing what you said. I am ignoring the affair and still trying my Plan A. After all, what is the use of confronting her again? She lied about the details of the A when I confronted her and then she started it up again within days after writing a no contact letter and seeming so thankful to get a third chance at our M.<p>Damn, I have to talk to Harley!! LOL

2Long...we're still waiting for your new thread...I can't take the suspense!!! ;-)

For those of you who have so kindly followed this thread and provided such valuable feedback, my thanks!
I'd posted a "letter" I'd written in preparation for a conversation with my WW, with the intention of delivering the message in a conversation, not as a letter, and asked for feedback. I got a lot of good stuff, and I also got feedback from "K" indicating that it came across as a "selfish demand and disrespectful judgement". So, I've reworked it some, and here it is again.
What I'm trying to accomplish is for my WW to get on board with me towards the road to Recovery...<p>
I cannot help but feel that your relationship is not over and I would really like to talk about it...I’ve been patient, and I'll continue to be patient, but I feel that that won't last forever. I would like you to understand that I don't know when my patience will end, or when my love for you will diminish to the point where I won’t want to; I have been patient because I love you, and I want our marriage to work, I understand how hard this is for you, and that it takes time. But I’m afraid that if it takes too much more time, it may be too late for us.<p>It would be fabulous for our marriage if you work really, really hard on quitting ALL contact with the other man, and all the other aspects of your “secret second life”, and I would really appreciate your talking to me about it...I know that this is very hard for you, that there’s an emotional attachment that can’t be broken easily. I understand emotional affairs quite well now, and I know they are just as destructive as physical affairs, but I am here to help. I really am, and I think I can help you…if you’ll let me.<p>Part of what I feel is that you have created a separate life without me outside of our home. I no longer feel like I’m part of your life, part of your plans, part of anything except the guy who’s at home and with things related to the children. Don’t get me wrong; things at home have been great; I think we both have worked on it, and we both see it and appreciate it. I certainly do.<p>I cannot ask you to do anything, will not try to force you to do anything, but at the same time, I cannot allow myself to be disrespected to this level much longer and continue to be genuine and honest about trying hard to fix our marriage. A few months ago I was doing what I was doing out of fear, but now I know that I will be OK whether we make it or not, so I want us to find a way to make it because I love you and want you, not because I fear losing you. And nothing would be better than for us to be working together, helping each other out, supporting each other and understanding each other as we go through this difficult time.<p>Trust should begin to be re-established between us, and the basic rule for that should be that both of us should think about what we say and do, and if we wouldn’t do it or say it with the other one standing right next to us, it’s probably disrespectful and not a good thing. I know this will not happen overnight, but we should try to start it.<p>We should to get to a point where we are both working together for our marriage, where we can discuss and agree on certain goals and steps we will be working to reach together; and where we both support each other in that pursuit, and in overcoming our individual personal obstacles.<p>I have found many sources of support and information which have helped me, and I’ll be happy to share those with you because I think they’ll help you as well. In fact, there are women who have been/are in your same situation who would be happy to communicate with you and help you through this, and I’ll be happy to connect you to them. I have found much support and good advice, and much of what you see me doing comes from that.<p>I love you, I wish for us to be the best that we can be, and I wish for us to be that together…like we once dreamed it would be…before we let life get in the way…I truly love you.

I think it sounds very good. Go for it... if you are ready for her to say no or continue lying.

SC:<p>My thread is at "Praise Jesus (and I'm an atheist!)... possible big step in MC today "<p>MC session didn't go as I'd hoped. Went better, but then now I feel pretty down and hopeless.<p>As I did on that thread, I offfer my sincerest apologies to people on this forum, like bryanp, who I jumped on for being so firm about no contact. I think they're right now. Anyway, see my thread for more info on this. I don't want to detract from this one with repeating my rants here.<p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks Conan, I was so curiouys about 2Long that I almost ignored your post.<p>You are right, more than likely she will continue the A, but bear in mind that she's already doing that, so getting her to start down the path is a good thing. My W has not even agreed to write a No Contact letter....she just says it's already over, so what's the point. Total denial.<p>I need to find a way to get us moving because I can only keep up my Plan A while the A continues for so long before I start to see some progress...progress is what gives me the strength to keep it up...stagnation just makes it harder...and I don't want to move to Plan B prematurely or before I've given as many opportunities to Plan A as I can muster.

SC,<p>Don't sweat the no contact letter... my WW wrote a perfect one and the A just kept on going. In some ways it was more hurtful that she wrote the letter and then kept on. I can just imagine them laughing about the whole thing behind my back that they really pulled one over on me.

Conan:<p>That really pulls a good vacuum! My W and I talked a bit last night about severing contact with OM. Actually, it was more like "I'll tell him that you know about A eventually, and when I do he'll likely run scared and lay low from now on." That's great, actually, because I would rather WE put together a no contact letter when we can both agree to it AFTER we've got some other things straightened out about our R (like I will need complete honesty from now on). And, I'll probably write a letter to him of my own as well. Nothing mean, but firm nevertheless.<p>Still Plan Aing my beautox off.

Hi SC,
I haven't been here in a while. I really like your post from 4/16--trying to talk/deal with your wife as if the A is really over. I think it's a great idea. And get her to talk about the things you're interested in talking about.<p>Give her lots, and lots of attention. Email her, call her, leave her sweet vm's, let her know that you are thinking of her all the time...<p>I think that my EA was in large part due to me feeling like my H was neglecting me. A month or so ago he told me that he was embarking on a national campaign to show me how much he loves me. It was so touching. Plus, it made me feel good that he accepted some responsibility for allowing our marriage to deteriorate to the point that an EA ws possible. But "the campaign" motif was a serious and humorous way to attack a huge marital problem. He's still on the campaign. Shortly after he started it, things weren't going well, and on a walk, I asked him, "well, how's the campaign going?" Without missing a beat, he said "well the campaign is in a bit of a slump, but I think I'll be able to get it back on track real soon!" We just burst out laughing. But, using that theme has helped both of us focus our attention on our marriage. Now it's interesting, even though it was me that was the WS, it was my H that started the campaign. Now, I have decided to have a campaign as well, but I really, really liked the fact that even though I had been the "bad person" by straying, and perhaps some people would have thought that it was me that should be implementing the campaign; I really liked and appreciating him taking it on as his mission.
Well, for what it's worth.

Thanks AS, you've been wonderful to have around!
I think that if my "frank conversation" (the "letter" I ran by the board a few days ago), and our first (in a few months) joint MC session on Saturday don't start producing results, I may just try the "crazy" approach I suugested on 4/16...I'll keep you posted!
SC

Well, I had the talk with my WW today; covered most of the points in my "letter" (see 3-4 posts above), without any anger, LBing, and with a lot of love.
I think, just think, that I started to get through to her...at first she said she felt we'd already discussed all we needed to discuss about the A (remember, she insists it's over), and I explained that I had no reason to truly believe it WAS over, and that this was still an issue thet we need to address, because it was still something that I am feeling. She seemed to understand it better now, as she saw how important it is for both of us to see, respect and act towards each others' feelings.
I also talked about how there are people and methods out there to help us, and that we must get that help and work together towards the common goal. I think she got that too...she said she was going to think about it and we'd talk again.
Hopeful!!!

Oh, no...it all hit the fan again!
We started so well after our converastion, then later we went out and got to talking about us, and it all just deteriorated into an argument...it's obvious that while the A is still going on, there really is very little room to maneuver.
We were talking about what we say we are going to do and not doing it, and she exploded; "you're not going to be happy until I write the letter that you asked me to write!" (a letter to the warden taking her off the visitor/call list for the OM, which I haven't talked about for weeks!)
But I should have known; while it is still going on, there really is nothing much more that I can do to make our M work...sad, but I'm afraid that until she somehow realizes it has to end, and I have no idea how that's going to happen, the only option I'm going to have left is Plan B....I sure hope she somehow starts seeing the writing on the wall...maybe saturday's MC session...very down, I should not have let our conversation turn into an LB, it had been several weeks since we'd had any slip-ups.

SC:<p>sounds very much like some of the arguments that my W and I have had over the past 3 months. I kept finding myself thinking "WTF? Where did THAT come from? and what does THAT have to do with what we were talking about?"<p>Major fog talk. It certainly reveals how attached she still is to OM, but it also shows that she realizes what ought to be done about him for M to rebuild. The angry outburst also sounds like my W, blasting her frustration that I won't just forget about the A and live day to day. She loves you, is my read on that. (otherwise she'd have moved close to the prison - what a life!?).<p>Boy, you, Conan, and Just Learning have given me the best advice about these very arguments in recent days/weeks. Hope giving it "back atcha" will be of some help. <p>Hang in there SC!