OK 2Long,
I need some reassurance here...<p>You said: "sounds very much like some of the arguments that my W and I have had over the past 3 months. I kept finding myself thinking "WTF? Where did THAT come from? and what does THAT have to do with what we were talking about?"<p>Clearly, this is a VERY sore point. For some time now, before and after she said the A was over, I've said she has to end it and show me it has ended. Why?, because she's lied about it repeatedly (20+ times) until I don't know what's true and what isn't, so I've tried to explain that I need that reassurance, that I feel I deserve it. And when she has said it's over, she's also said that she understands she has to show me it's over and will find a way to do that. But she obviously hasn't (can't) so she does not do it. And although I was talking about something else entirely (getting the recorder she found back), she immediately jumped on this. "It'll NEVER be enough for you until I write the letter @!@!@!"<p>You also said:
"Major fog talk. It certainly reveals how attached she still is to OM, but it also shows that she realizes what ought to be done about him for M to rebuild. The angry outburst also sounds like my W, blasting her frustration that I won't just forget about the A and live day to day. She loves you, is my read on that."<p>Reassure me here; why is it that it shows she realizes what ought to be done? And why is it your read on it is she loves me?<p>Man, I am just ready for Plan B...I sense there is nothing that will bring her to her senses unless it's a major jolt. This is probably just frustration.<p>I've always been too easy on her, too easy to cave in, to easy to deceive, and too quick to come back begging for forgiveness....I have put her needs before mine for too long, and I never called her on the "little things" to avoid a fight, or to try and get some sex...and even so, I somehow did not manage to meet her most important needs...what a mess I've made!

Hey SC,<p>You feel weak right now... don't overreact!!<p>I know you are frustrated. I am not saying that Plan B is not the right thing for you, but don't make the decision in hast and weakness.<p>Cool down and get back to Plan A for at least one week before you do anything else. You need that time to get your head straight. I think you were doing well, but started pressing a bit. My Plan A includes an important ingredient... I am NOT talking about our relationship except in the most positive light (e.g. "what can I do to make it better"). If she brings up anything, I will talk, but I know to shut up and not say too much. One of the big reasons I am doing this is to avoid LB's by getting into it regarding her ongoing A with OM. I am going to fly blind like this for awhile and see if I can get her to drop OM by herself... my methods and no contact letter didn't work. If it doesn't work, so be it, I tried.<p>I am not ot the end of my rope yet, but you may be there. Still, take a breather before you act.<p>Hang tough my brother.

SC:<p>Conan's right, of course. I guess when I look back at the past few weeks, when we were "taking a day at a time" and having a wonderful time (but frustrating the snot out of me, internally!), I was doing what Conan suggests here - not LBing and only answering questions from her on sensitive subjects. Bringing them up myself still ends up with heated discussions. <p>What I mean about the fog talk and the "she loves you" is that, no matter how hurtful her outbursts are, and no matter how disconnected they appear to be from the conversation at hand (actually maybe BECAUSE of the disconnection), the simple fact is she hasn't yet left. Maybe she never will. That she blurts the disconnected statements out shows that she can't stop thinking about those issues, and maybe she's trying to shift blame so as not to feel guilty. But she is guilty. If she didn't feel guilty, she'd not get emotional about the no contact letter and she'd probably be long gone by now. <p>Make any sense? (I'm a scientist, and frankly have only 3 months of "training" in human behavior!).<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

SC:<p>I just thought of something that I tried about 30 years ago at a party that relates to what Conan's suggesting today with letting WW bring up the sensitive stuff and only answering that for now. <p>At this party, the Led Zeppelin was up so loud that I couldn't hear squat or make myself heard in conversation. Since I didn't drink at the time, but everybody else did, I decided to try a little experiment to get myself heard. I brought up subjects or answered questions in a normal tone of voice that nobody could possibly hear without stopping what they were doing, getting away from the loud music, and asking me to repeat myself. I had their undivided attention. It was fun.<p>I guess this is what we're doing, in effect, with our WSs. When they bring the subject up themselves, it's something they're prepared to talk about and so they're focused on hearing our responses. If we bring up a sensitive issue or LB, we put them on the defensive and they fire back a volley of their own off the top of their heads. And so it doesn't always make much sense - to me at least - when it happens - like the "you pressured me into having sex when I wasn't ready" o k a y.... recently is the first I've heard that, but WTF does that have to do with my being upset because you shagged it with OM 11 years ago and had an ongoing EA and occasional PA with him until last fall? HUH??? When did you feel "ready" for sex? After we were M'd, when we had kids, or when OM put the make on you? Nonsense, pure and simple. <p>My W has blown up many times in the past 3 months about my desire for no contact, and yet last night she asked me to clarify it and seems willing to comply at some point. But remember that in my case she seems to have been further along in ending her EA by D-day than your W is (certainly, since her EA is still going on). <p>I actually think that my updating my profile yesterday was premature, and I will change it back to reflect that what I then thought of as D-day 3 was really just what she said it was - purely professional correspondence about the report he owes her.

Conan;
You're right, of course, I need to cool off. It is just SO frustrating that she is still so easily able to take me where I don't want to go with her self-righteous tirades!!!
I have not brought up the subject of the OM for several weeks, and really didn't do it today either...she did! And I took the bait...<p>I'm not at the end of my rope yet, but close. It's not only the plan and the process, it's in part that I know her and I know how stubborn she can be, and that I know she knows she's pretty much gotten her way, so she's just pushing as far as she dares, which is pretty far. And up to now, that has worked for her so she sees no reason it shouldn't work again. Only this time, I'm better prepared..at least there's a plan and I have been more or less able to follow it.<p>I'm not going to rush into anything, will wait for the MC session saturday, and see what happens.
Thanks for your support!!

2Long;
I hope you're right. Maybe looking in from the outside without all the baggage at just my words and description allows you to see what I cannot see as clearly.<p>But I think you're right. The policy of sensitive subjects only as a response to her questions is probably one I should have been following more closely. And I will!<p>And of course she's feeling guilty. SOME of what I've been saying and doing, and having her read has got to have made SOME impact, somehow gotten thru at some level...and the natural guilt of knowing what she's doing is wrong and needs fixin'
You're right. You're right...I'm not seeing the positive, but there IS some; not a lot, but some. Thanks for the reminder!<p>But I know it's getting thru at some level, she has to be starting to realize that it isn't just going to go away. And hopefully she's not lying to her PC and making SOME progress there as well...I don't have a clue.<p>I will hang on to your words with hope...that my WW, like yours, will begin to think about the No Contact stuff. She's not there yet...but hope springs eternal! ;-)<p>Thanks for your kind words and support; that's another thing I've got...and it DOES help!!!

Where's AShirley when I need her the most?! ;-)

Hi SC,
Thanks for making me feel welcome..I really, really appreciate it! According to your wife, when was the last time she had any contact the the OM? Is she admitting she's still in contact but not "involved," or is she saying that she hasn't been in contact and has no plans to be in contact?<p>Because I didn't know about EAs, I really, really wanted to believe that I could be friends with the OM. But my H was adamit that that would never happen. That I had to quit being in touch with the OM. It was very helpful for him to stay consistent and firm on that front...I was always looking for wiggle room so that I could try to justify a friendship. Your W needs to know that you will not stand for her to have a friendship with this OM...no wiggle room. Sooner or later she will have to make a choice, being with you or the OM. I know what my choice would be! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] and it's not the OM!<p>Has she really tried to figure out what she was getting from the OM and how to get that and more from your marriage? I really, really agonized over that, but was actually able to, at least to a certain extent, articulate some of those things and relay them to my H, and he's working on making some changes.<p>I'm sorry you had such a rough day...but this too will pass.
Isn't it nice to know that you have so many people pulling for you?

Like SC, my WW won't admit she is having contact with OM (after she promised not to and even wrote a no contact letter). She says she can't even figure out what need the OM was fulfilling so I don't know where the hell I am.<p>By the way, my PI was amazed to find out tonight that my WW found the tracking device in her car. He said that had never happened before!! She has never said a peep to me about finding it... this is a crazy cat and mouse game I have ended up in. It just makes me think she is all the more crazy to be pulling this whole damn thing off.<p>Interestingly, she said tonight that she wanted to do the weekend retreat I suggested (got the idea frm Jack). Very curious this whole thing.

Conan:<p>I've pretty much gotten the same thing many times from my W, only she words it like "I just needed a little bit more attention, not a lot." Which always left me wondering, so why have an A????????!!! Sounds to me like she needed one helluva lot of SOMETHING I wasn't giving her to have done something so drastic. <p>But the more I think about our conversation last evening, the more I realize that ours was just a regular, sometimes mundane M that was accosted by the OM's crush on my W that was finally reciprocated because they shared an office together in grad school and had the same interests. At the time, I was in school and working 56 hrs/week to try to make ends meet. Thanks a lot, W, for noticing!! But then I realize that we're not unusual in this regard of how the A started, and so I go forward (I hope) with the realization that my W isn't a bad person, just got sucked in when she was vulnerable. <p>I love her, and recognize that we may be within a few weeks or months of trully beginning a recovery of our M, and I just hope that by that time I will want to begin the process for myself, by shifting to recovery from Plan A, rather than having to go to a Plan B.

Hi ashirley,
Well, let's see, first of all the story has changed so much over time that I'm not really sure.<p>The basic premise is that as I found things out, the story would change to somehow accomodate the information in a way that she could deal with it, not always logical or consistent. Anyway, the last thing she said about this, on 3/20, was that she had not had "contact of any kind for about 2 weeks", of course, less than 2 weeks earlier, she'd said she was "going to end it soon", so I don't really have a clue. Since I really stopped spying (it hurt to much and didn't really make a difference), I don't know what has been going on since.<p>I will tell you this, from everything I've seen, she has set up a communication system that is hard to penetrate; po box, probably defined days/times for the calls to her cell phone, calling cards, probably a voice-mail somewhere (not at any of our home phones), so I am pretty sure there is still contact.<p>The basic issue is that she has always fabricated a story to fit what she thought I knew, or what I told her I knew (stupid!). First, that it had gotten emotional, then that she had ended that and was just helping him, then when I discovered the "I love you, miss you, you don't know what I've been going through with my H in the house" calls, she just stopped talking about it and took it totally secret.<p>That's when she set up all the alternative communication systems and she started saying it was over, even though she could not/would not demonstrate it, and since then, ANY talk of the OM just causes WWIII...<p>I do agree with you that she probably does not see her continued contact as something that I should go bananas over. Like you, she feels she should be able to have her friendship, and she feels it is ok for her to have "things that are hers alone" and I should not have to know about...so really, it's all the classic signs of an A, as described by Harley in "Surviving an Affair"<p>Regarding un-met needs, she has filled out a EN questionnaire, but since all interaction related to the OM has been so volatile, she's never identified what exactly it was he was providing. I do suspect it was praise, showing her she's needed and important, that she's doing good, etc. and I do agree I was probably not giving her that. Also, she's always said she wanted to be a CIA agent or spy, or something like that (I never took that seriously) so it just may be that she relishes the secrecy, mystery, etc. in maintaining this R.<p>And yes, it is not only nice, but absolutely critical to me at this point, to have the support of people like you, Conan, 2Long, and all the others here!!!

SC:<p>Your last post is so similar to what I have been going through, trying to figure my W's thinking and behavior out, that it's almost scary! All but the CIA stuff could have come directly from our conversations in the past 3 months!<p>"The basic premise is that as I found things out, the story would change to somehow accomodate the information in a way that she could deal with it, not always logical or consistent."<p>This is why comments from my W that I've posted in my threads and yours and Conan's lately have had me guessing so much. They don't make sense. They're almost seemingly deliberate attempts to derail my train of thought in trying to figure things out. But I know more now that they're really just a result of the abduction by those little skinny silver guys in the flying pie plate.<p>"Since I really stopped spying (it hurt to much and didn't really make a difference), I don't know what has been going on since."<p>Me neither. But you'll pick up clues here and there in conversation and primarily in C'ing. And now, since you're aware of the A, you won't be fooled so easily anymore. I'm certainly not. It's a lot of work, having to rely on hunches rather than direct evidence or dialog with W, and that will affect my desire in the long run to stay together if it takes too long (i.e., if she doesn't start pitching in in a big way).<p>"I will tell you this, from everything I've seen, she has set up a communication system that is hard to penetrate; po box, probably defined days/times for the calls to her cell phone, calling cards, probably a voice-mail somewhere (not at any of our home phones), so I am pretty sure there is still contact."<p>Sounds like she's separated without living apart. Maybe you should "give her what she thinks she wants" and see if she'll pull her head out of her a$$. Sorry, my W did some of this, too. The work email thing, for example. But at least, so far as I can tell, in my W's case the contact since last month has been about her report, and so she may be actually trying to comply with my need to cut the [censored] off. But since it's out of my reach, I still get suspicious of what else might be going on. You're right, though. Snooping will make you crazy. I don't do it partly because I can't easily. But it's helping me to not be focused on the secrecy. <p>"The basic issue is that she has always fabricated a story to fit what she thought I knew, or what I told her I knew (stupid!). First, that it had gotten emotional, then that she had ended that and was just helping him, then when I discovered the "I love you, miss you, you don't know what I've been going through with my H in the house" calls, she just stopped talking about it and took it totally secret."<p>Almost exactlly what happened to me last month! with the same arguments about OM since then! Man, we could write a book! (but only one, the stories are nearly identical - hm... we'd probably end up suing each other for plagiarism! ;o) So let's blow off any book deals!<p>"That's when she set up all the alternative communication systems and she started saying it was over, even though she could not/would not demonstrate it, and since then, ANY talk of the OM just causes WWIII..."<p>Bingo. Been there!<p>"I do agree with you that she probably does not see her continued contact as something that I should go bananas over."<p>My W actually said it in almost exactly these words!<p>"Like you, she feels she should be able to have her friendship, and she feels it is ok for her to have "things that are hers alone" and I should not have to know about..."<p>Bingo, again! The "privacy" issue. She should have her own private life that I don't interfere with!<p>"so really, it's all the classic signs of an A, as described by Harley in "Surviving an Affair""<p>Yep.<p>"Regarding un-met needs, she has filled out a EN questionnaire, but since all interaction related to the OM has been so volatile, she's never identified what exactly it was he was providing. I do suspect it was praise, showing her she's needed and important, that she's doing good, etc. and I do agree I was probably not giving her that."<p>Right out of conversations with my W! Except that she didn't even want to consider the ENQ. But as I've said recently, I'm realizing now that my W's OM meeting her ENs wasn't really the reason for the A starting in the first place. It was the attraction and the excitement compared to our daily lives. I wish I could remember the poster who said that S. H. had said something like "it's not missing EN's that pull people into As, it's the WS's weaknesses that enable the OP to take advantage of them that pulls them into As." That's not a direct quote, and I may have gotten part of that wrong, so I apologize up front for that if so. I will look for that today and get back to you. I think it's that important, in my case at least.<p>"Also, she's always said she wanted to be a CIA agent or spy, or something like that (I never took that seriously) so it just may be that she relishes the secrecy, mystery, etc. in maintaining this R."<p>Like I said, the CIA part is where our Ws are different, but the secrecy aspect of maintaining the excitement of the A is bang on what she said to me a while ago.<p>"And yes, it is not only nice, but absolutely critical to me at this point, to have the support of people like you, Conan, 2Long, and all the others here!!!"<p>The feeling is very, very mutual! This forum has saved my sometimes precarious M from destruction at least a couple of times in the past 3 months. It may still be headed for termination, but at least I no longer think that if we DV, that the result will be a large, smoking hole in the ground where we once stood. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hang in there!

I cannot emphasize enough the value of the support I get here. I've certainly made fewer mistakes and stopped myself from reacting in ways that would be negative to my quest.
It's a lifesaver.

Plan B question;
If we go to a Plan B because WS just does not end the A, is unwilling to commit to recovery, doesn't get it that the A has to end, etc. is it a good idea to lead them to the harley books and other like them during Plan B? Maybe in the Plan B letter?

SC:<p>What would be the purpose of doing this? Seems to me it would only give them "ammunition" against you, knowing what you're doing. They might just play the "waiting game" right back at you. See who chickens out first.

Of course, that could be the down-side, but if they don't somehow find out about some of the things they DO need to find out about (ending it, the road to recovery, etc.), then a Plan B might not have the desired effect....I'm not sure.

SC:<p>That's a good counterpoint. Actually, why not dump a load of books about As in her lap (or ship them to her new address), and let her sift through those and find out about Plan B on her own. That way, she'll have to read them all! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Ok, as if I didn't already have many questions out there for the board, here's another one.
My WW decided she needs to get away for a few days (which I think is fine) so she's going to visit family in NY and friends in Ft Lauderdale.<p>Now here's the question; I STRONGLY suspect she will take a day while she's in Ft Lauderdale, drive up to Orlando, and visit the OM.<p>Obviously, this is driving me nuts! But, as I've learned, it's better to ask the board for feedback before acting on my first emotion...should I try to find out, should I leave it alone, should I try to stop her? Remember she has said it's already over, so almost anything I say to that effect will probably be received with double-barrel cannon-fire, opinions?

Along the same lines as my last question;<p>since the OM is in prison, and there are certain rules for calls, visits, etc. (and I won't go into the details here), I could, very easily, by writing to the warden, prevent her from visiting or getting calls and/or mail from him, and would probably get him into some hot water. . I could basically make her Persona Non Grata at the Bureau of Prisons, virtually ensuring the she could not contact or visit him ever again. (I've checked on all the rules and laws with an attorney, so I know I can do this)<p>So, the question is, is it in my best interest to do so? or will it only be seen as a major LB and cause me more trouble?<p>I've refrained from doing it up to now on the basis that I really only want my wife back if she wants to come back, not because I interfered with her A in such a way that it would make it hard to continue it, but boy it's tempting!
Comments?

SC:<p>Gee, what is it with these wayward spousal units, anyway? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Do you know her friends in Fla? If so, would any of them be willing to let you know where she is when?<p>I guess if you don't or they won't, you just have to let her do whatever she's going to do. <p>Hm... How about contacting the prison OM is in afterwards and see if they have a record of her visitation?