SC:<p>"I could, very easily, by writing to the warden, prevent her from visiting or getting calls and/or mail from him, and would probably get him into some hot water. . I could basically make her Persona Non Grata at the Bureau of Prisons, virtually ensuring the she could not contact or visit him ever again. (I've checked on all the rules and laws with an attorney, so I know I can do this)"<p>Sounds like a great idea to me! I sometimes wish I could get a restraining order on OM to not contact my W, but that would be impossible if she wants him to contact her. Your situation is different, and unique. This would definitely be a LB, but it might be a good one (as it would be final!). <p>Better get some feedback from others, particularly experts, before doing so. That's just my reaction, and as you know, I'm just a humble country scientist lost in the big city. I'm not a therapist!

Well, the first idea will not work, the prison will not release visitation records without the consent of the inmate.<p>The firends in Fla are very close friends from many, many years ago. Of course, as is usual, my W and his W are much closer than I am to the H, so she would probably not tell, and I hesitate to ask the H because they don't know wnaything about this (I think) and it would be awkward to ask him to tell me if my W, while visiting, disappeared for a day...maybe I could, but it'd be uncomfortable. I'm going to thuink about it.<p>as for the second option, yes I could stop the contact, but what consequences could that have later? If I effectively end the possibility of the A (at least while he's still in prison) it could "force" her back to me, but is that what I really want? I'm not sure.

SC:<p>"as for the second option, yes I could stop the contact, but what consequences could that have later? If I effectively end the possibility of the A (at least while he's still in prison) it could "force" her back to me, but is that what I really want? I'm not sure."<p>Hm... if she doesn't know it was you, then you have nothing to worry about, right? If she does and it does force her "back to you" maybe you'll get a lot of anger for a while, but what better way to end it absolutely (at least until OM is released)?<p>On another, related note. Don't prisons allow conjugal visits? From "girlfriends"? If so, you may want to force no contact to keep the EA from going PA, unless it has already and you're not aware.

Conjugal visits was the FIRST thing I checked out when I found out. No go there, he's not eligible for that. And it would have to be a wife, not a girlfriend.
I've actually gotten a lot of info on this guy and the prison system through the Freedom of Information Act...I've got his whole history, convictions, record, cases, appeals, they give you quite a bit. Not eligible for parole either, because he violated parole before.

SC:<p>Gee... ... aw, what the heck: SEND THAT LETTER! <p>8 years is a pretty good withdrawl period, doncha think? Or doncha?

Jeepers! I thought I was going to get a lot of opposition to that crazy plan, but all I've gotten is encouragement!
Weird...

SC:
You want opposition? Ask W and OM what THEY think of the idea! (not really).<p>I'll bet they'll give you all the opposition you need! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p> (but at least your W will likely thank you one day, if she finds out)

No, I don't want opposition, just good advice!
I posted the same question on a new thread to see if I got more responses, and two "MB Old-timers" (no reference to age, just time on this board!) both said go for it, and frankly, I expected them to oppose the plan based on it being a potentially HUGE LB.
I'll have to plan this out well, make sure all the right "things" are in place and protect my identity as much as I can.
I'll also wait and see if I get more feedback...I'm a little scared of that move.

Dare I post a little opinion? From a woman's point of view? Spacecase, don't you want your WW coming back to you because SHE wants to and because she has chosen YOU? You don't want her to come back to you because you're the only option or because it's the comfortable thing to do, but because she loves you above all others, right? Now maybe I don't know all the story and am speaking out of turn, but I don't know if I would write that letter. (and you remember me, I'm leery of getting that PC snoop program)<p>Another thing, your wife is clearly in the fog, going after some guy who is in prison. Good grief! She is going to have to come out of this on her own, in her own time, and I don't remember how long you've been Plan A'ing, but I don't think I would force her hand, or her heart.<p>Just a thought, trying to be helpful by offering my view.<p>All good wishes.

AsGood;
That was precisely the scenario I have been thinking about, and my heart tells me that is the right thing to do.<p>However, the reality is that not only is she in the fog, she has been lying about this, has not even told her C the truth, has not shown any willingness to learn and start down the path to recovery, nothing. We've been stuck in the same exact situation for months, with no signs of progress.<p>And the other point is that the scenario where somehow the A ends, with or without my intervention, is one of the scenarios where the M really gets another opportunity. We've seen many cases where the OMs wife, for instance, discovers it and forces the end, and a WS comes back and begins rebuilding...isn't that the same thing? it was, after all, just as reluctant an end as mine could be. Don't you think?<p>To be frank, I've been surprised at the support this idea's receuived here. I thought most MBers would come back with the same position you took. I'm not going to make a rash decision on this.

Well, our MC session today did not go very well. WW insists the A is over, but of course has no way or desire to demonstrate it, and she's really still stuck where we were 3-4 months ago; "I've made some changes, can't you see them?", "but of course it's never enough for you!", "all you want to do is have me say things so you can blame me for this", "Isn't it enough that I'm still here with you, that I go to bed with you?, what kind of a woman do you think I am?", "you put me in a corner and diminished me when you found out, and that's all you want to do, and I will not let you", "If it's not your way, it's not good" (MY way being a method to recovery...), "I have the calling cards and the PO boxes because you spied on me, and I need them so I can have conversations with my friends and my sister without you listening"....shall I go on? I think you get the picture. In my view, it's the classic WW Harley describes in SAA, when the A has not ended....back to square one, I guess.
I just don't know how much longer I can keep op Plan A....no progress in 3-4 months?

Hi Spacecase,<p>I'll be real honest with you here. First off, I'm glad I said something that was helpful, or at least that reinforced your "gut reaction." I want to talk about not forcing things. Your last post where your wife mentioned PO boxes and calling cards is alarming. Of course you want an open relationship with your wife. From your point of view, there should be no secrets. And so it should be. I want the same thing, hence my upset with secret chat room conversations and all. BUT, your WW has to want the radical honesty too!! If she still feels a need to send secretive letters or personal phone calls, you can bet she is complaining about you or your perceived unfair treatment of her. Of course you don't see it that way (I don't either because I understand your objective) but SHE sees it that way. She sees you as being controlling, I would bet. Maybe even your C sees it that way. Somehow she has got to get to the point herself where SHE wants the Radical Honesty with you. No secrets!! And right now she doesn't want it.<p>What to do?<p>Plan A, show her who you really are at your best, not to win her back but so that she has a clear picture of who you really are at your best. That you love her.<p>I found Bramblerose's story really inspiring. She posted on a GQ thread by TooMuchCoffeeMan called "To let WS know BS knows about A or NOT." I'd be interested to know your opinion on how BR handled things. <p>Well, I hope this helps.<p>In regards to your response to my first post, I do think it makes a difference how the A ends. I think the best case scenario is for the WS to come to the conclusion independently that the A isn't what the WS wants. I understand Bramblerose's point that making the A public plays a role.<p>What do you think?<p>------------Kind regards.

AsGood;
First off, thanks for your thoughful replies. Very valuable.
I fully agree with you, WW has to want to work on the M, has to want Radical Honesty, etc. But before we can get there, she has to want to start the process, work towards the Recovery, and to do that she first has to end the A...otherwise, how can it work? She probably does see me as controlling, but I've never been like that, I'm just determined to "fix" our M the RIGHT way this time.<p>She had another A about 14 years ago, and she ended it, and we just moved on, did not address the issues, etc. and I'm getting too old for this stuff; either we can "really" fix it, or we can't. That's why I'm pushing for her agreement on this. That's why the first objective is for her to end it.<p>I've backed off quite a bit for about 4 months, Plan Aed as best I can (granted, it has not been a textbook plan A, but the best I've been able to muster), with the intent of getting to a place where I can either just let go, or she might come around back to work with me when she ends it. But she does not end it, continues to lie and we're not going anywhere with this. She's "cakewalking" as they say around these parts.<p>I read BR's story, thanks for the direction, and I think she did well. I sincerely believe that if there are no external forces to lead the WS to some semblance of reality, they are perfectly willing to continue these dual situations indefinitely. I mean, other than external forces, the only other reason an A would end is if there's a major fall-out between the WS and OM/OW..and yes, we can sit tight and let that happen, if ever, or we can defend ourselves where we can and help the WS find a dose of reality so they can make an informed choice.<p>I was hoping that by now my WW would have really ended it, and by showing her that I can change and I can address her needs, even in the face of an A, she might want to really try to save our M, but evidently she's still too much in the fog, and she's too distrusting of me (I personally think because she projects her feelings and guilt on me, but that's another story) and she's perfectly content to carry on an EA with a convict, while I am being the best I can be, and I support her and our family fuinancially, and frankly, I have no idea what she's after.<p>So I think I must take the actions I can to try to bring her out of the fog and maybe give us a real chance, or I can just walk away...
I'm trying NOT to walk away, I'm trying to help her....she just doesn't see that.<p>Making the A public does play a role; an important role. I'll give you an example; my W and I were speaking to her sister about it (we both have a very close relationship with her) and my W would say it is over, and I would show her the tapes demonstrating it wasn't over...until she just rolled her eyes and said, look, I have to believe my sister, and I have to believe you, and this is not going anywhere while you say one thing and she says another. So what is the point of discussing this with anyone if you're just going to lie so you can keep your A going? What is the point of going to a C if you're just going to lie? That's exactly what my W has been doing...for what reason I can't fathom...heavy fog!<p>Look we started going to joint C sessions, and she'd lie, and I'd expose the lie...the next week, she decided she doesn't want joint C anymore, she's going to a PC. Now, after several months, I get her to go to another joint C session, and you read what happened...do you think she'll come back next week? I doubt it. She wants to keep her fantasy alive, she knows shes wrong, and she can't face it, and this is not going anywhere...so I have two choices; either I find some way to "shock" her into looking at and dealing with reality, or I walk away and divorce her, with all the negative impact that will have on my children.<p>I can't do that before I've given it my very best shot, and if that best shot includes doing things that I may not normally do, it's not because I'm being rash or precipitated or vindictive; it's because I want to do something before it's too late for us. I can't go on like this much longer...I'm ready to move on, but I have to try.<p>If I can get her to end it, or want to end it, and work with me, with a C, on a plan, that's what I need to try to do first.
If I can't, I'll go to Plan B...but on Plan B and after that, there's no coming back...it's over. And that is not what I want.

AsGood;
I forgot one thing; I totally agree with you that in the best scenario the A would end because she wants to end it. No question of that, nothing else can come close to the value that has towards the recovery's chances.
But the same can be said of a lot of things. If she'd just admitted it when I found out, it would have been better, but she didn't. If she had ended it after I found out, it would have been better, but she didn't. If she'd stopped lying, it would have been better, but she didn't.
So I have to work with what I have, not with what the best scenario is...

Hi Spacecase,<p>These things are always complicated, aren't they?<p>My initial response to your longer post was, what do you see in your wife? Like one poster once put it, sometimes you have to cut your losses. . .
But then, I'm not a quitter myself, and I wouldn't
feel comfortable recommending to anyone that it's time to throw in the towel. But that was my first impression. You seem to have really been trying.<p>Then I thought about your children, which you mentioned was a concern to you, and rightly so. They are, fortunately, older. How aware of the situation in your marriage are they? If aware, supportive of you? Of Mom?<p>Back to you efforts. Bottom line from what I have learned, you cannot expect your W to work on the M if she isn't willing to. She is in the fog, granted; I just don't know how effectively an outside force would bring her around to wanting to address the needs of the M. If your sister in law is aware and involved in talking with you both, your W lies, lies to the C, lies to you, what do you really have to work with? All you have at this point is your own personal integrity and the peace that brings, not self-righteousness, but the peace of knowing you have "given it your best shot."<p>Thoughts for now, gotta run.<p>----Kind regards.

AGAIG; (Did I get that right?) ;-)
Yes, they are complicated, and, like you, I'm not a quitter.<p>What do I see in my wife? Well I see the woman that I've known and loved since we were 14 years old. Yes we went on and off for many years, she married another man, I went off with a HS girlfriend, and we married when we were 22.
She is a good woman, she has a great heart, and she has raised our kids exceptionally well. They are the kind of kids people always compliment us on, just wonderful.
I think she just got bored, frustrated through some difficult years we had, and in my single-minded desire to never let us face such need again, I lost sight of the most important person in my life, her needs, and her wishes. And she also let it slide, and we just drifted apart, unknowingly, unaware, never with any bad intention on either side. And then one day, this old flame of hers (when she was 15 or so) pops up out of nowhere, in prison, and needing help. And she doesn't tell me about it because she knows I'll object, and she goes off on her new mission in life, this new adventure, this new project that gives her meaning...and things just go from there...he's SO thankful for her help, he's so adoring and helpless, and he's such a poet....and she falls in love with a dream...a dream of a long-ago love, that perhaps now, when she's so alone and so abandoned by her husband, just might be that spark that lights up her life again (you know I'm crying as I write this...tears on the keyboard) and she falls for it. Hopelessly, madly, irrespective of anything else. A little girl's dream come true! A man who needs her, truly needs her, depends on her, and a mission to keep him sane and with hope through a terrible and unfair ordeal. His wives have abandoned him, his daughters don't visit him, his parents live in a far-away country...she's all he's got. And he weaves his web, and she is caught.
What do I see in her? All of those good and noble feelings that took her away from me, all of that desire to help and be needed that I took for granted, and all of the wonderful things she has done throughout our lives, that I did not fully appreciate or express. That's what I see...my true love...slipping from my grasp, gone, because I was not able to see what she needed and wanted...and it took this to wake me up and see it again, and I wish there was some way in the world I could tell her this and have her believe me....

So, is it time for Plan B? Or is my WW too confused and resentful for that to work?<p>Also, should I try to end the contact before I Plan B, and see what happens or Plan B without interfering with the contact, or both at once?

Ahh, Spacecase, I understand better now. I think you have sized things up pretty well. It's all very believable. And bless your heart for the tears, I am sorry about the pain.<p>First of all, I guess it isn't so bad to be like the rest of us and plead guilty to having neglected your marriage. I did the same. Took too much for granted and got lost in my kids. Never occurred to me that I wasn't paying enough attention to my sweetheart.<p>So forgive yourself for having lost the prize, and see where you can go from here at restoring what you prize most.<p>I think you understood well the mission your wife found in this new/old love. Did your wife not feel needed? She felt you were completely capable and independent of her? We all need to feel needed, and with your kids almost all grown-up, she maybe did need a new project or mission in life.<p>When you have communicated with your WW about things, have you mentioned how much you need her in your life?<p>And you didn't answer my question about the kids. Do they know? What do they think? Are they supportive of any particular action? Not that they should determine the course you take, but it helps to know where they stand.<p>My kids inadvertently say things to me and I think "Boy, if you only knew." Someday I'll tell them. They are too young now.<p>As far as whether or not to Plan B, have you spent any time writing a Plan B letter? You could review some I've seen on the boards here, and maybe in the course of writing your own, you'll have some new thoughts. Or you'll just know whether or not you are ready for that big step.<p>---------Kind Regards. And take care.

SC,<p>I strongly vote for you to cut off the contact with the OM if you can. I don't know if I would have suggested it prior to my experience over the past couple days.<p>For one, if she finds out about what you have done, it proves she has been having contact, right?<p>for two, it seems that the realization by my WW and the OM that I had stepped up my game regarding catching them and that I had learned the art of playing it quite scared them. I do not know if the fear will keep up, but it seemed to have a dramatic effect. I think they started to see the whole things as just too tough to pull off in secret when they knew I could bankrole extreme measures against them. As stated before by others, this is not the ideal way to get my WW back into the M. But, it may have been the key to getting her out of the fog a little. I destroyed the fantasy and fun of the secret life. I made it clear that when it came out what I had done, that my motivations were to "know what the hell was going on with some certainty because I knew I was never going to get the truth out of a couple liers" ... and that I was going to do what the hell I wanted to accomplish my goal. I also made it clear that they still had the right to see each other and that was their decision, but I had decided to stop living in the dark because of their lies.<p>The key was just making it a free decision on everybody's part. The WW and OM made their decision to lie and sneak and I made my decision to find the truth. Then we are all making fully informed decisions, instead of just them. This seemed to difuse the heat I got in the past when caught or admitting snooping. This time it was just me pursuing a quest for truth and I didn't demand any results from them from the "truth" I learned. I made it much less about them and much more about me!! I HAD A RIGHT TO KNOW THE TRUTH AND THAT IS WHAT I WAS GOING TO FIND OUT... BY WHAT EVER MEANS I DETERMINE ARE JUST. I didn't apologize for it, I left it up to them to react how they wanted... that was their decision.<p>Do you see the shift in the thinking here? It is so subtle and had always slipped past me before. I am now very comfortable with this idea and it is very empowering. Do I know that my course of action will assure an end to the A? No, I don't know that. All I can say is that I am at least not doing the same thing as in the past and expecting a better result this time.<p>I do not really see the downside here.

SC,
I think I told you that my EA took 24 months to come to an end. I think you need to try to prevent contact between OM and your wife, if at all possible. In the meantime, I think you should continue to be loving, kind, try to share her life with her, show her that you want to be with her and do stuff with her, act like you trust her, expect her to be honest and forthright. Expectations are so important. My H expected me to be truthful, honest, respect our vows...I wasn't always or didn't always, but he expected me to and I did rise to the occassion. If I had gotten the vibes that he expected me to cheat, lie, sneak around,,,there probably would have been a whole lot more of that happening. Expect the most of your wife. And remind her that she's the love of your life...<p>Again, try to find out some of the things that were deficient in your marriage...what did she need that she wasn't getting? if it is complements, attention, feeling important, etc..you can do all of those things. Insert yourself back in her life!
Your friend,
A.