SC:<p>I agree with Asgood, that it's BEST if the WS chooses to end contact on their own, so they choose their M, rather than settle for it. But this case is unique. You appear to be able to make a clean break in the contact, possibly without revealing you've done so, AND most importantly, you'd be ending contact with a potentially very dangerous individual (not released until 2010, without possibility of parole!!). Even if he's not physically violent, he may have "friends" that are, and I doubt very much that in 2010 when he gets out that he intends to be a "model citizen". Get it over for your, your W's, and your family's safety!<p>If she finds out, or even if things just go downhill between the two of you after her contact ceases, I'd seriously consider Plan B. I hope, though, that just not being able to talk to OM will be enough to start the waking up process.<p>Good luck.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>I agree with Asgood, that it's BEST if the WS chooses to end contact on their own, so they choose their M, rather than settle for it. But this case is unique. You appear to be able to make a clean break in the contact, possibly without revealing you've done so, AND most importantly, you'd be ending contact with a potentially very dangerous individual (not released until 2010, without possibility of parole!!). Even if he's not physically violent, he may have "friends" that are, and I doubt very much that in 2010 when he gets out that he intends to be a "model citizen". Get it over for your, your W's, and your family's safety!<p>If she finds out, or even if things just go downhill between the two of you after her contact ceases, I'd seriously consider Plan B. I hope, though, that just not being able to talk to OM will be enough to start the waking up process.<p>Good luck.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>But if SC does this and the A is severely damaged to the point of dying because of his involvement, won't he have to always carry this secret like a WS tends to carry the secret of an A?<p>But then again because we're dealing with an unusual and non-typical OM (a dangerous inmate)that the MB principle of radical honesty may have to take a back seat to the security of SC and his family.<p>Joe

Joe:<p>I think SC should tell his W that he broke contact at some point in time, maybe even during recovery.<p>I intend to tell my W that I almost ended our M the day I intercepted the email she'd sent to her OM on my birthday, but I will wait until we're well into recovery.<p>regards.

Boy, alot to catch up with! Thanks all for the feedback.
In order here:
AGAIG; I have been quite aware of, and cognizant of my part in this almost from the start. I've told my W so, on many, many occasions...she just doesn't believe it. Either because she's projecting (my hunch) or because in her fog she has used the fact that I am to blame for everything as justification to herself, and if I admit to it, it seems like it'd be easy to correct, and she does not want to admit that if I do, she'd have no reason for the A. Wow, it does get complicated!<p>I have forgiven myself, and I am fully able to forgive my W because now I understand the forces that allowed this to happen, and I know they are beyond our control. It's really only the lies now, and the fact that she cannot see that it needs to end, and we need to committ to recovery that is still troubling to me.<p>I have communicated to her that I need her in my life, and I've apologized profusely for being so blind to what was happenning...perhaps not enough. ashirley has also said I must continue to reinforce the fact that I need her. I will.<p>My kids do know about this. The relationsghip we have with them is one of friends almost. So much so that sometimes they come across as disrespectful to me, but I have gladly taken that in favor of very open and frank communication with them. I mean they talk to me about their personal feelings, their thoughts about sex, drugs, everything, so I'll take that over the fake respect I grew up with. Anyway, it was apparent when I found out that something was very, very wrong. The screaming, throwing stuff, kicking her out of the house (never actually did), etc. So I felt I should tell the children what was going on and I did. Not all the details, but the general gist of the story and what I was doing to fix it, etc.
I also spent a lot of time helping them understand that this was by no means Mom's fault alone. (This has been the hardest, their initial instinct is to just say and feel: "how could mom do this to dad, what a B....", and I felt that was unfair, so I've tried my best to exoplain these complicated relationship things, and how we both have responsibility for what happened, etc. I don't want them to hate their mom, or side with me, I want them to know the truth. Besides, they are 19, 16 and 16, so it's not like they are too young to understand some of this. They get it and they support my efforts to forgive and find ways to fix the M.
I did write a Plan B letter, and it's posted on this same thread...probably back on page 3-4. I've been preparing for that, and I will make the decision for that soon. I want to exhaust other options first, though.<p>OK, time to go back to carpet-cleaning...I'll be back!

SC:<p>That day I almost kicked my W out, I told our D and my MIL about what was going on. I haven't told our S, but he does know we're having problems, and I did say on the weekend that I almost threw her out when we had an argument that he heard, that we might wind up DV'd. <p>I also am aware of my role in the distancing within our M, but have come to realize that it happened AFTER the A started, and so was not the cause of the A, it was a result of it. My W actually pointed this out to me, inadvertently, at our last MC, by saying that OM had a crush on her for a while before the A started, and that the first 15 years of our M were pretty good (so they deteriorated when the A started). <p>Remember, when a WS is in an A, they can't possibly devote 100% of their affections and attention to their primary relationship. My W claims to have "tried to get through to me" during the remission periods of her A over the past 11 years, but since she never told me what had happened, I didn't have enough information to work with. <p>I will still take my share of the responsibility for not being a good listener during the A, but I will never take any responsibility for any aspect of the A itself. Neither should you, in your case (but I realize we all know that, intellectually - it's just that I've also realized that sometimes I actually do feel like I'm taking some responsibility, and so I stop myself).<p>Take care,

Conan;
I think the consensus is that I should stop the comm with the OM since I can. I'm working with my attorney on that process to minimize risk. There is a very slight chance that my W could be prosecuted for that, although there's no record of that ever having happened, and prosecution is meant for people who lie on their visitor info for the purpose of committing a crime or furthering criminal activity, which is not the case.<p>I also agree that when the A becomes too cumbersome.difficult/scary to continue, interest wanes, so I guess as a general policy, doing things that can make it more difficult are OK, provided major LBs aren't committed in the process.<p>I think you make a very good point on the "snooping" being for you and not for/against them. Very good point. The right to know cannot be so easily dismissed, provided it is not used "against" the WS/OM.

Ashirley;
Like I said before, I think there is consensus among board members that if I can stop comm b/w WW and OM, I should. I'm working on that.<p>I am trying to get her to "let me in" a bit more into her life, and I suspect the reluctance has to do with the fact that she is out all the time to be able to communicate, receive and send mail, etc. There's also communication with a bunch of other related people; his attorney, sister, friends, other people she has met at the prison, etc. etc.<p>I will also try to somehow convery to her that I do expect her to behave in a manner that deserves my trust, that I am trusting her to do the right thing. Not sure how...ideas?<p>I have been finding out about some of the unmet needs, and have been trying to make changes and fulfill those as best I can, she also does not really let me do that as much as I'd like, or maybe it's not really that but that since I don't get any reciprocal treatment, it feels that way. That's what it is...it's frustrating; give, give. give, swallow the bitter feelings, the anger, the frustration and be the best you can be. It's very hard; hardest thing I've ever done...I think.<p>I have been complimenting her on her efforts at her work, at the changes she has made in our relationship, as many things as I can. And I will keep that up as long as I can.<p>But after the MC session on saturday, and with her trip to NY and FL (possibly with a visit to the OM), and seeing no real progress, I think Plan B is looking closer that it has before. I'll probably wait and see what happens with the comm cut-off, if I can pull it off, and then decide if it's time.
Thanks again! ;-)

2Long;
I think you're absolutely right. I can end the comm, see what happens, and worse case scenario...Plan B. Best case, wake-up begins.<p>Regardless, as you or Conan said before, 8 years should be long enough for "withdrawl" to take place without mush fear of re-incidence.<p>Things are starting to fall into place? Maybe?
A glimmer of hope.

CoffeeMan;
You are right. The decision of telling or not will come up. I know it'll be on my mind (if it actually comes to pass and actually works).
I'll have to think about that one. Perhaps after some time has passed, and if we're making a good recovery and I start seeing that she feels she did the right thing, says something like "I don't know what I was thinking" or otherwise acknowledges the unwise choice of OM, maybe I could tell her.
Time will tell....maybe the right time will come.

Spacecase<p>Close your eyes ... and imagine this x-con being your kids' step daddy one day.... the idea makes me want to hurl ... >>yuk<<<p>Think of it as an infestation. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Delouse ... ASAP.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Oh God, that's hitting below the waist, Pepper...perish the thought!

2Long;
Regarding "responsibility" for the A. I think we need to clarify; I take full responsibility for my part in creating an environment (or allowing an environment to be created) in which the A became an option. I certainly DO NOT take any responsibility for the A itself.
That was a conscious decision on the part of the WS, and had nothing to do with me.
The fact is, I also have many ENs which were not (and are not) being met, and I did NOT choose to have an A over it.

SC:<p>Yep. I knew you knew enough not to blame yourself for any part of the A, but needed to be sure [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>In my case, I am actually surprised to see that I wasn't such a bad guy at all, that the A happened when we were getting along okay, maybe even well, but deteriorated when W didn't get "the right answers" from me regarding what constitutes an A. I was scared s**tless at the time, but never really believed my W would give in to the temptation of an A. Boy, was I wrong. If I could do ANYTHING, it would be to turn back the clock with what I know now!

Don't blame yourself for that 2Long; NOBODY believes his W is capable of having an A....until she does.
What gets me is that although I certainly played a part, I feel I was unaware of it, oblivious, I just didn't get the feeling something was wrong. Evidently my W did, and the question is why would she not try to talk about it? Why not try to discuss the issues, the unmet needs? It's a little weird to me that instead of doing that, she ends up having an A.
Then again...maybe not...I guess it could have just happened...the opportunity presents itself, and the normal alarm bells don't go off because when she thinks about it..she's not very happy...who knows!

Hi SC, You've been getting lots of helpful advice, I see. I am always fascinated by the different takes people have on things, and the wisdom, too, (gee, why didn't I think of that?) I have to agree with the poster who noted that you are in an unique situation here of being able to facilitate the end of the A (or at least contact) in a completely anonymous way. That surely does put a different light on things, though I'd love your wife to go back to you of her own volition, eyes wide open. (can't see well through the fog, I know.)<p>Just checking up on you, glad you are hanging in there.<p>--------Take care.

Thanks AGAIG,
I was really siding with your initial opinion on this, as it has also been my position from the start. (I really could have done this months ago.), but under the circumstances, it appers the best course of action is to intervene.
I'll keep the info posted as it happens.
Thanks for your support!

Hi SC, Hope all goes well. If you have time, would you check out my post in EN? Would like to know what you think. Thanks.

Sure will, AGAIG.

Update; I got my first phone appr with Steve Harley for next week, so that should be interesting!
Also waiting to hear from attorney on how/if to stop comm b/w WW/OM with as little legal exposure as possible.
She's traveling to NY anf FL, and although I don't have confirmation, I strongly suspect she will go and see OM in prison...we'll see what happens.

Hi SC,
How are you doing? I was curious, are prison visitation records public information? Is there a person at the prison you can call to find out if and when your wife visits?
Hang in there!
AS