well, I was sort of torn between either a teacher/professor, or engineer-type ... guess I was sorta right... <p>you're good at organizing and communicating - like a teacher/trainer might be... <p>nawwww - not totally nerd-ish... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Odd behavior/changes in behavior;<p>I was thinking last night that over the last couple of weeks, I've noticed some odd changes in behavior for my W.<p>Forgetfulness. She has NEVER been forgetful, quite the contrary, she remembers EVERYTHING, and lately, it seems like she's forgetting things. Small things like forgetting that she did not tell me we were invited to dinner at my SIL, and I'll say "you didn't tell me", and she'll say "I'm sure I did", or she'll say "I'm going to forward such-and-such email to you", and then doesn't do it, and when I ask, she looks perplexed and says "I thought I did..." [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And this has been coupled with some apparent changes in attitude towards me and towards our issues. She's said some wonderful things about wanting to work on the M, and staying together, she's said for the first time that maybe we do need to go to MC together...<p>Does any of this strike a chord with anyone?

Her A is starting to take a toll on her. Mental stress is showed on her unablility to conctrate or remember. She might show also physical stress such as heart burn or sudden tummy ache. She is confused ... torn between 2 lovers [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . This is good and should encourage you to stay focus on your plan A. Tune your plan A up, she is reponding. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] -RH-

SC:<p>ALL of it strikes a chord with me!<p>My W never forgets anything either, and is very organized (supervises a group of difficult people), and yet she made no sense yesterday with a comment she made about work (related to OM). I don't think she wants to face the real truth here - that maybe he's pissed off that she won't see him when he drives 1000 miles one way TO DROP OFF A CD, and so he doesn't drop off the CD and leaves her to wonder where it is. ...I don't know if that's what he's thinking, but I hope so [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . It would help me a great deal here if she would come to the realization that OM is a turd, a rat [censored], a manipulator, an adulterer, a cheat, a liar, a betrayer, a fornicator, a low-life, bottom-dwelling, mud-sucking worm...<p>...but I digress.

Redhat;<p>you said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Her A is starting to take a toll on her. Mental stress is showed on her unablility to conctrate or remember. She might show also physical stress such as heart burn or sudden tummy ache. She is confused ... torn between 2 lovers . This is good and should encourage you to stay focus on your plan A. Tune your plan A up, she is reponding. -RH- <hr></blockquote><p>Tell me more! Why do you say this? what's the rationale? Is this the first "real" sign that I'm doing something right? PLEASE say yes! Where can I read more about this?<p>Also, is this worth mentioning to Steve? He said yesterday after our sessions that if there's something important to call him anytime...<p>[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Hey 2Long; you sound a bit frazzled this morning?
What's up?

Spacecase,<p>In plan A you need PTC, patience, time and consitency. You might do it right all along and now it starts taking effect. Still you have to listen to her complaint and work harder on it, never stop improving your plan A. You are chiping away the wall that she 've erected between you. Take this sign as a booster for you to plan A'ng you butt off. No need to check in w/ SH unless her attitude toward you are slowly closer consistently. Enjoy the up swing of this 'coaster while you can. One more thing to think of ... try to plan what to say if she is mentioning again that she is willing to see MC. Try to ask her if she is willing to talk to SH to help you to be a better H.<p>Good work. -RH-

Thanks Redhat for your support and elaboration.<p>Yes, that is precisely the plan; invite her to chat with Steve, this very interesting guy I found who can help me improve our marriage; he'd like to hear your opinions so he can help me...I think she'll do it. Stay tuned!<p>I didn't quite get this part:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> No need to check in w/ SH unless her attitude toward you are slowly closer consistently. <hr></blockquote><p>Space<p>[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

SC:<p>"Hey 2Long; you sound a bit frazzled this morning?
What's up?"<p>Guess I'm a bit frazzled! Actually, was nervous because my IC was this morning. I always get nervous about that.<p>I'm also nervous because of what my W is NOT telling me about OM being in town this past weekend and once before (don't know when). Like, it's obvious she made no effort to visit him or have him visit her while he was here, but it's NOT obvious that they didn't talk, either through email or on the phone before he came out. He also had his sister deliver his report to W's office (though she never showed up), so I keep wondering if he knows SOMETHING is wrong (or he's pissed). <p>1) I still don't feel I'm getting the honesty I need from my W (though I need to be patient, too).
2) The ILY's stopped abruptly from my W about a month or so ago, and I can't pry any out of her, even when we're getting along great and I ILY her a lot. (and before we get that "actions speak louder than words" argument going again, let me just say that, although "ILY" may NOT mean ILY, NOT saying ILY doesn't necessarily mean ILY, either.)
3) Our R is improving dramatically while at the same time OM and honesty issues remain completely uncertain.
4) Perhaps most disturbing of all: Our claims adjuster called me a little while ago and suggested we compare the value of our house with the insurance settlement figure, once we get that. We may want to sell it as is and move on. I haven't wanted to think about this for a long time, but now or soon would be a good time to do this if we were to DV and go our separate ways. We could probably pay off the mortgage, sell the house, and purchase two other houses with the remainder of the settlement. That's going to eat at my mind from now on, or at least until our M gets better. A very, very tough decision.<p>frazzled,

SC:<p>And I should add to this: <p>"and before we get that "actions speak louder than words" argument going again, let me just say that, although "ILY" may NOT mean ILY, NOT saying ILY doesn't necessarily mean ILY, either."<p>By saying that not RESPONDING to an ILY with one of your own, is bordering on inconsiderate. In my case, it's a minor LB. And they've been accumulating.

Spacecase,<p>I recon that your W tried to be nice to you. If she is consistently doing that and stop being mean ... you know that the fog start clearing and not waffle no more. I would get SH involve right away.<p>Next time she mentions she would like to try to talk to MC, you ask her if she would like you to set up one. If she is a bit reluctant let her know that you need her help to become a better H even this M ended in Dv. Let her know that she will be talking to MC alone until she feels comfi to have both of you talking. You could throw a bait by talking about SH and how he has help you a lot to see your mistakes and to correct that. However never ask her directly !.<p>Keep us in the loop. SH has helped me to keep my sanity. -RH-

2Long;<p>I hear you; and I know where you are. Try to remember that things have improved, there is no way to make these things go faster. You've done well, keep it up, and be patient.<p>The one thing I would suggest, though, is don't make any of those "major" life decisions right now unless you absolutely have to. Regarding your house, sell, fix, move....this is probably NOT the time to be making those decisions. Hold off if you can.<p>Hang in there. We're all rootin' for you!
Space

SC:<p>Thanks! And I keep having to thank JL for all the great advice he's given me in the past few months. I can't help wondering if I give him heartburn when I say I'm doing okay, then something like the claims adjuster call comes up and I get all goobered up again! <p>You're absolutely right about the major life decisions. I've been known to compulsively buy a new car (though the old ones usually have a few hundred thousand miles on them when I do), and this has gotten me into really hot water in the past (last time was about 11 years ago... ...coincidence? NOT). This last time was the week after I found the emails, but about 3 days before I confronted WW about what was REALLY going on. No, I didn't buy a car, and now I'm glad I didn't. Would have set me back about $30K for what I was looking at. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ...oddly, it was my W that suggested that I should look for a new car! And she's brought it up a couple times since then, too. I won't, though. Even though my current one gives me plenty of trouble, it usually gets me from A to B, and it's paid for [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Gots to start feeling better about stuff...

Well, I got the wind knocked out of my sails today...a couple of days ago I posted:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> My attorney says we can report this, get WW off of call/mail/visit lists at prison, pretty much disable all comm w/OM. (and it'll stay that way practically forever. As far as the Bureau Of Prisons (BOP) is concerned, she'll be Persona Non Grata) However, there is a SMALL risk of her bieng prosecuted for this. Lying on the "visitor Form" is tantamount to perjury. BUT, he has NEVER heard of anyone being prosecuted for this unless they lied in order to "facilitate the furtherance of a criminal activity" or some such law-speak. The risk of either of them ever finding out I was involved is very slim as well. My info would be treated as that of a "confidential informant". <hr></blockquote><p>Well, my "second opinion" came in today and it's not good. THIS attorney says that several things can happen, and a few definitely will.<p>What will happen:
-My WW will be taken off of every form of communication with the OM practically forever.
-The OM will be thrown into "the hole" probably for 30 days
-Nobody will really know what happened; there will be an internal inquiry, and not even his attny will be able to speak with him during that time, and will never be able to know where the "inquiry" came from.
-US Marshalls WILL interview my W about this
-The OMs attny, who faxed the letter to my W where the OM told her to falsify the info on the visitor form will be questioned, possibly disciplined, possibly prosecuted.<p>What Could happen:
-The BOP could prosecute my W if the OM and his other buddies (inside or out) are involved in any type of hanky-panky business, in which case she will be named as a co-conspirator, even if she was not aware of the hanky-panky.<p>Apparently after 9/11 things have gotten pretty tough in the federal prison system due to the investigations of "stuff" going on b/w inmates and attnys, connections to terrorism, etc. So they're not as lax as they were before, and they are paranoid of anything that might make them look like they are being lax, or anything that might happen for which they can later be blamed (remember the visas the INS approved for the 2 dead terrorists?)<p>Anyway, I'm not so sure I'd be willing to take some of the risks involved. What will the children think if US Marshalls drag mom out of here? What if the OM IS involved in something funny unbeknownst to my W and they prosecute her as a co-conspirator? And who knows what other harrasment we may be subject to by coming to the attention of the feds...I just don't know...how can she not see any of this! How can she not see the threat this is to our kids? How could she do this?<p>I can't do that to her. If she went to prison or something like that I'd never forgive myself, my kids would never forgive me, god knows what could happen to her there...I can't do this. I care for her too much, it hurts too much...what good could come of it? I'd probably lose her AND she'd be in prison...she might as well go with the OM...

SC:<p>Dag Nab!!<p>Hey, I thought S.H. advised you not to call the prison about this? If so, what's to worry? Or, if so, is there any reason you should worry about your W getting into trouble over this during some other "routine" investigation, if she's revealed NOT to be OM's sister?<p>I'm going to be on the board for a few hours tonight, as my W is out of town tonight and I feel like posting!<p>Take care SC.

2Long;
Yes, Steve advised against doing it at this point in time, but it was always an option for later if necessary. I guess I'd gotten used to the idea that I COULD do it if necessary, and that kind of empowered me...

SC:<p>I guess I feel somewhat fortunate in that I have 3 Cs I'm talking to, plus my W has one of those plus her own IC. I don't mind repeating myself to 3 Cs, either, because I have always needed to reiterate what's going on out loud in order to figure it out. But the main reason I like having 3 Cs is that I can compare what they're telling me to each other's views and formulate a better plan accordingly. It's also nice to hear 2 of them say the same things now: That NO CONTACT is the ultimate goal. Both ICs also said, that my W's IC's "comment" about my expectation that my W never be friends with OM is "prepostrous", was either a misinterpretation on the part of my W, or at best was the IC just listening to my W and trying to figure out where she's coming from (it was only her 2nd visit). So at least I'm pretty certain that it's damned unlikely that my W will ever truly get any "advice" that will include continued "friendship" with OM while I'm M'd to her. <p>The other benefit I find with having 3 Cs is that I get reinforcement from them that keeps me from LBing about OM (when I want to so desperately!), and keeps me from contacting him myself to tell him to back off. And so, in a way, I'm faced with a decision that is somewhat similar to yours. I think that me contacting him would probably scare the pi$$ out of him (which is why it's so tempting to do) because I could probably lose him his job and who knows what would happen if his W found out. But contacting him would be a major LB for my W, because it wouldn't have been her decision to end the contact with OM. And my W NEEDS to be in control of this. So in the end, I need her to be in control of this decision, too. If, in a year or two, we're still together, it will be far better if she decided on her own to break off contact with Rat Meat, rather than if she thinks I forced it on her. Conversely, if she were at all likely to renew contact with OM after I've "calmed down" at some later date, it would be less if she had broken it off herself than if I'd forced no contact.<p>I think she'll start to realize in the coming weeks that I couldn't possibly go through what we're going through again, and so if she had any intention of remaining friends with OM, I will need to separate in order to protect myself and our kids.<p>Oh yeah, and the best thing about 3 Cs for me? one's free, one's 5 bucks a visit, and the other is 80 bucks/visit, and they encourage me to see each other!

2Long;<p>I'd check out the W's IC; there are many out there who subscribe to the theory that "what the patient wants, the patient should get" and are much more dedicated to the individual's needs than to the whole family unit's needs. No panic, just check it out if you can.<p>I've had the same dilemma; "is it better for the WS to end it herself or will it be the same if I can intervene?" You participated in that discussion, and I think we all agree that if the WW ends it it's better, but that if necessary and possible the BS could intervene as a second option. Same as me, you can evaluate the situation and if it comes to that, and at the right time, you could intervene with the OM.<p>It seems odd that 3 C's would work with you at the same time. The ones I've seen have always insisted that they will not see me unless I've stopped seeing the other one...interesting

SC:<p>"I'd check out the W's IC; there are many out there who subscribe to the theory that "what the patient wants, the patient should get" and are much more dedicated to the individual's needs than to the whole family unit's needs. No panic, just check it out if you can."<p>Yes, I've certainly thought about that, and my $80 IC even suggested that possibility, but he and the other IC (at work) both think that, because it's only her second visit, it's more likely that my W "heard what she wanted to hear" in what her IC said, than the IC is a FOOL (what I wanted to call her when my W told me what she "said", but I didn't, which would have been a huge LB anyway).<p>"Same as me, you can evaluate the situation and if it comes to that, and at the right time, you could intervene with the OM."<p>And it's true that your situation is potentially more serious than mine. At worst, my W might DV and run off to live in a shack with OM, who would have to DV his W to do that. I He's not dangerous, so far as I know, just selfish and stupid. I'd rather my W stayed in our M because she chose to do so, but may get so low in LB$ for her that I may have to intervene or separate (or both). <p>Your W's OM may be dangerous.<p>"It seems odd that 3 C's would work with you at the same time. The ones I've seen have always insisted that they will not see me unless I've stopped seeing the other one...interesting"<p>Their roles are different. My private IC (the $80 one) is my "main" IC. The one at work is interested in my updates as they relate to my performance at work. She offers some encouragement and answers my questions, but mainly she listens. The third is our joint MC at Kaiser.

2Long;
I never answered this:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> is there any reason you should worry about your W getting into trouble over this during some other "routine" investigation, if she's revealed NOT to be OM's sister?
<hr></blockquote><p>There is always a chance that my W could be "nailed" for this in a routine investigation. Everyone I've talked to is surprised she was able to get away with it in the first place. This will always be hanging over us, I'm afraid.<p>Anything I do that calls attention to her, the OM, whatever, COULD prompt a more detailed review of the files, documents, and would simply be asking for trouble. In other words, I can't very well be making discreet inquiries about this. When I'm ready to do it, I have to do it.