Hi Spacecase,<p>Howz about another view? With my H even though he was allowed to return home, he did not act like he deserved to live here. <p>So that became my emphasis. I knew he needed a place to live and he felt that OW's place was NOT an option. So that was good. But then he had little options left. However, I was not going to let him use us as a doormat and we meet some of his needs and OW meet the rest. AS it was the OW nut wanted to split him 3 days vs 4 days. That was after her 24/7 demand. Go figure!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway, asking made him angry so I stopped. I let him know that when I felt that I was not safe or uneasy, I would ask. I also asked that he needed to make me feel safe or appreciated. I asked how he planned to show his value as a contributing family member. Remember he was not allowed to stay for free!!! <p>So I put the onis on him. Worked better for me. Took pressure off of me and put it where it belonged. on him. Works til this day. When he strays oh boy, it sticks out like a sore thumb. That is without me watching him 24/7. I also told him that I was tired of watching him. He needed to earn back my trust and hurry up because I may want to throw him back out! LOL!!! <p>JMHO,
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ashirley:
<strong>SC,<p>Maybe you need to approach this from a different angle, with a fresh start. Instead of talking about the past, perhaps you need to make the future like you and your wife would like it to be. You can always come back to the topic of what happened, when she's ready to talk. I think that it's really easy to get obsessed with trying to get answers, while missing the main point which is to re-build your marriage. Maybe you should try really hard to let it go, and move on. Accept what she's telling you as the truth, and involve yourself in her life. Have fun with her, laugh with her, enjoy being with her. I know it's not easy to do, when you are in the depths of dispair over her betrayal, but maybe it's worth a try. What do you think?
AS</strong><hr></blockquote><p>AS;
Thanks for your post. I have tried to do that, to talk about the future, and how good it could be, and some of the changes we'd both have to make to get there.<p>There's only one problem; how can I feel she is sincere and committed to that while I know she's still lying about the A, I strongly suspect it's still going on, and she's not even willing to feel any remorse?<p>She still blocks any/all conversation on many subjects and still holds pre-set views about me, my feelings and actions, only the views that support her position for not moving forward. She's avoiding the hard look at herself she'd have to face in order to honestly make changes, so anything we do in that direction would feel fake and contrived.<p>Maybe you're right, though. I'm really only wanting to hear what Steve has to say after their session, and more importantly, whether she chooses to continue with him...if she does, I think with time he will be able to bring her a bit closer to where she can start looking inside some. My fear is she will resist it as soon as they start touching on areas she does not want to face.<p>I feel better this morning, yesterday was very bad. I still have some hope.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Hi Spacecase,
...So I put the onis on him. Worked better for me. Took pressure off of me and put it where it belonged. on him. Works til this day. When he strays oh boy, it sticks out like a sore thumb. That is without me watching him 24/7. I also told him that I was tired of watching him. He needed to earn back my trust and hurry up because I may want to throw him back out! LOL!!! <p>JMHO,
L.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think that's a very good approach, and I may be able to get to something like that, but I can't do it yet.<p>She does not acknowledge the A, nor does she accept any responsibility for it and for what it has done to our M, and she still feels that it is I who has to prove himself.<p>Her lies and deception are barely acknowledged, and she just wants my trust and forgiveness without realizing that she must do certain things to gain them...it's a series of brick walls!<p>She doesn't even see that her behaviors (being out at certain times, using calling cards, secretive phone calls, etc.) perpetuate the dis-trust. She just says I'm paranoid...<p>This strategy, or one like it, could probably work, but I fear I'd have to go to Plan B before she would truly realize there's really a chance of total loss...I think right now, she's still pretty sure I won't leave her. She's shown SOME signs of seeing that I might, but I think she does not really believe it's possible (or that I'd be capable of doing it). And that's probably my fault; over the years I let a lot of small things she did go without making her see they were wrong.<p>Thanks for the feedback...I appreciate the support! ;-)

Hi SC,
I'm glad you feel better this morning. I'm sorry this is so hard. On the bright side, you've only been going through h*** for 7 months, I put my H through h*** for 24 months. He hung in there and it was worth it. We all want quick results. But these things didn't happen over night. Her needs (whatever they were/are) probably weren't being met for years...so this just might take longer than you hope and want it to. If you know that you love your wife, enjoy her, like spending time with her (think back to before the EA)...it's worth the wait.
AS

SC:<p>Boy, do I know what you're going through. Except for the details, I get all the same behavior and biting remarks.<p>We had one of those conversations this morning, very much like what you described. No bitterness, but this am wasn't very positive about the future, either. She mostly talked about how I was in the past, as if that's how I'm always going to be from now on. I was starting to feel like we really hadn't made any progress the other day, but then I thought more about it and pariticularly about your post last night and this morning, and realize that, yeah, this is one of those bumps we're going to have to get over. I still think we're "approaching" true recovery, even though contact with OM for work hasn't ceased yet. I'm going to scan the samples for my W that she's going to send to him for his analysis, and I just might ask to send them myself, or cc my address on the email to him and see how she responds to that suggestion.<p>In your case, it may be helpful to let her know, like I did and like we recommended Conan do, that there is a consequence to her actions that involves separation or DV at the end. I hope it doesn't come to that, but you may need to be tough and loving at the same time.<p>Gotta go to my son's hearing this am. Will check back later today.

Thanks AS; I know...I'm trying SO hard to be patient, it's just so very difficult to see that the progress is so minimal, and sometimes seems to go backwards. It seems as if she's just determined to NOT change, as if she feels all the changes have to come from me, as if ANYTHING she gives would be letting me win, or something!<p>My fear is that her stubborn determination, her blind self-righteousness will end up destroying us. She just cannot see that she has any blame or responsibility for any of this...she sees what I've done wrong, and it's a HUGE deal for her, and I admit it and try to change it, but the IDENTICAL thing she's done is not even seen as wrong at all! Bizzare!<p>Thanks for being there!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>In your case, it may be helpful to let her know, like I did and like we recommended Conan do, that there is a consequence to her actions that involves separation or DV at the end. I hope it doesn't come to that, but you may need to be tough and loving at the same time.<p>Gotta go to my son's hearing this am. Will check back later today.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks 2Long;
I have let her know, I just think she does not believe it...she thinks it's a bluff.
That's why I think Plan B may be called for at some point...hope not, we'll see.<p>Good luck w/your S.

I've been reading other posts, on other threads, and I think some of you have it nailed exactly. I apologize, but I copied the statements without the poster's names, but you know who you are....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> "I don't know what kind of time table you are on. But I do know from reading Torn Asuner (wonderful book) that if one of you isn't comfortable talking about it, it hasn't been talked about enough. I also know from my own experience that your H has to see and feel all of your pain, depression, anger, etc. in order to avoid another affair. And you have to express those feelings so they don't come back later, MUCH worse. It happened to me and it's no fun."<p>"I don't care how big and tough he is or how sorry he appears to be -- if he won't discuss this with you and give you straight answers about *his* behavior, he is NOT sorry he did this and he is NOT man enough to face his actions.
He may be sorry he got caught, but that is very different from being sorry for what he did and being willing to do what it takes to make it right. He is still putting himself and his feelings and his OP's feelings over yours." <p> <hr></blockquote><p>I think these pretty accurately describe my WWs state...now what to do about it...???

I haven't read this whole thread but Whoa! A Big screaming ME TOO!!! I told H lets put the past behind us & start fresh 12/01. (He had affair most of last year, still denies. But I heard all the lurid details from others!) He fed me back my words about 2 weeks ago BUT when I asked what him & OW used to talk about He took it back. He said it was none of my business & he would never tell.<p>He has said that we cant work it out cause I will always "throw it in his face" about OW. I try not to mention her. But then he blames ME saying the whole history of our marriage was bad etc & that this last year (his affair) is "not an issue". HUH???!!!! So now all he will say is that he's going to move out "eventually". Like you, I wish for one logical explanation/apology/ SIGN of remorse/ kindness etc etc. from him. Nope. Acts like nothing is wrong but stays away from me if at all possible. Hardly speaks a word to me sometimes. GRRR.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cantletgo:
<strong>I haven't read this whole thread but Whoa! A Big screaming ME TOO!!! I told H lets put the past behind us & start fresh 12/01. (He had affair most of last year, still denies. But I heard all the lurid details from others!) He fed me back my words about 2 weeks ago BUT when I asked what him & OW used to talk about He took it back. He said it was none of my business & he would never tell.<p>He has said that we cant work it out cause I will always "throw it in his face" about OW. I try not to mention her. But then he blames ME saying the whole history of our marriage was bad etc & that this last year (his affair) is "not an issue". HUH???!!!! So now all he will say is that he's going to move out "eventually". Like you, I wish for one logical explanation/apology/ SIGN of remorse/ kindness etc etc. from him. Nope. Acts like nothing is wrong but stays away from me if at all possible. Hardly speaks a word to me sometimes. GRRR.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry to hear that CLG, but I'm afraid it's pretty much "textbook WS in the fog". What ISN'T so "textbook" is what to do about it!<p>I've tried dozens of things; back off, don't ask, letters, conversations, joint MC sessions, indiv. C sessions, intermediaries, family, and of course all of this after the crying. begging, pleading that I did at first!<p>Don't know what to tell you, except find patience somwehere if you want to try and ride this out. That's what I'm trying to do...finally got her to accept a session with Steve Harley next Monday...we'll see if she doesn't find it objectionable enough to say "I don't like this, I'm not going back..." or something to that effect.<p>After that, I'm not sure yet, but I've got my Plan B all mapped out and ready to go...<p>Glad to chat anytime!

What do I do now?<p>I think you know the answer to that question already. Only you can make the choice to do what it is you feel in your heart to do. Everyone's situation here on MB is unique, including yours.
Noone has any right to judge you for the choices you make. We all feel lost at some point because of an A, whether it be an EA or PA. Listen and learn, then make the choice. Make your own plan. <p>You can try to make your W see what she refuses to see until you are blue in the face. The plain fact is, she has to do that on her own and in her own time. All you can do express to her how you feel about the whole thing and what you will accept and not accept. Then you have to let it go. <p>You both are suffering. Do you want to continue on this way? Don't make this M be all about her when you know that a M takes 2 to survive and thrive. Your W is getting what she wants. What do you want? You are enabling her and she is taking full advantage of it. The A will end in due time. The more you push, the more she gets away from you. <p>IMHO, the only thing left to do is to Focus on you now. If you are willing to let her continue this EA with no consequences then you have to be prepared for the consequences of that choice as well. Are you prepared to let her carry this on for a year, 2 years, or more? Speaking from experience, you will be taking a risk of resentment build up if you do.<p>You have to get yourself in a place where you know, no matter what happens or what she does that may hurt you, you will be okay...especially if you plan to Plan A for the next 6 months if your 6 months haven't started or ended by now.<p>I think you should just tell her what you feel, what you think, and what you are gonna do and not do, and then leave the ball in her court. Make a plan of attack and then go for it. Be strong and confident in your plan and yourself regardless of what she does or doesn't do. You can't control her but you can control yourself. <p>So, I think now is the time to find yourself -NOT- the extension of who you are with your wife. Do that, get some counseling, continue to vent here on MB and HEAR everyone's opinions and advice, relate to MBer's situations, make goals, get real with yourself, and live. She'll eventually come around. When she does, you design some new plans and goals for yourself including her in them. Your life shouldn't stop because of this detour. You are a separate person and human being from your W. Always have been and always will be. <p>Just my thoughts. Take care of you.
INTHECLOUDS320

ITC:<p>I think the point is, from knowing a bit about SC's situation, which is in many ways similar to my own, is that we're in a place where we're truly realizing that we're going to be okay, that we might wind up DV'd, and that we have to do something SOON before all of our love for our WSs is gone, and YET, there are enough signs (particularly lately, in my case) that the WS wants to save the M, but truly needs help getting unraveled from their fog. THEN, we get the blame for what we never did right, that we're never going to be able to maintain this new persona, and in general keep avoiding talking about the A and how to cut it off for good. And, in some ways we're no help, because we immediately acknowledge that "the A isn't the problem, it's a symptom. The M is where the problem is" and so our WSs have an excuse NOT to focus on ending the A to the BS's satisfaction.<p>I know that I'm certainly feeling all this. It's hard to contemplate plan B when we're getting along so well, but hard not to when I know how hard a time my W is having even contemplating no contact with OM (doesn't feel she needs to do it, since she already has promised she doesn't want an EA or PA again). <p>So, the question is: Given our WSs clearly DO want our Ms, not an A, how do we "help them" out of the fog without throwing them out on their ears after dinner? (maybe let them do the dishes first...). And the question IS this, because we really DO feel like we can be okay alone if we have to, but it doesn't look like we have to, and so why not do something good for our WSs and not blow the family apart. My 15yr-old doesn't know about the A, and loves his mom. If I can help her out of the fog without destroying his image of her, shouldn't I do so? And as for SC, he's got teenage kids too. Do they know about their mom's behavior? (I actually don't know). Do they need to know? (is this a situation where radical honesty isn't appropriate - after all, they're not part of the M, so it's not directly a "relationship" issue).<p>Just a vent. Don't mean to detract from SC's queries here.

2LONG,<p>You cannot help your W come out of the fog. She can only do that on her own and in due time. You know the A will eventually die down, but you don't know if it will "truly" end. Meaning, will it be brought up in conversation everyday during and after? Yes, it probably will for a long time. That is why counseling is important and where all of Dr. Harley's concepts come into play. It is very important to learn and listen all you can at this point. <p>Of course it is okay to do something good for your WS. It is also okay to do something for yourself as well. Your life does not have to end because of the A. It just takes on a new look. That is why it is important that the BS focus on themselves during this negative time. <p>The children's lives do not have to change as far as their thoughts on who their mother or father is or what they represent. They don't have to be involved or know anything that is going on. What you tell them or what you show them is all up to the BS and WS. <p>Kids are smart and very receptive these days though. My D is 10 and knows alot more than I thought she did. At her age, the questions come more detailed. I don't share negative things that happen between us. I do tell her in a delicate way that we are not getting along but that is for mommy and daddy to handle. She knows that we still love each other and that at the end of the day, everything will be alright. Some things the children should know and other things they should not. That is up to your discretion.<p>Noone knows the outcome of an A or the outcome of the M after the fact. You just have to focus on today. That is why a plan and goals are so important as well as talking, listening, and learning. It helps you pass the time. Boy, it helped me. <p>Plan B has its advantages as well as disadvantages. That is why it is important to go into it after a sufficient amount of time and thought. Regardless of what plan you choose to be in, you must be in a place where you know you will be okay no matter how things turn out. That all falls back on working on yourself. <p>The M cannot be worked on until both partners are working on it 100%. So, in the meantime, you and your children become your focus and not so much the A. Easier said then done but possible. Only we hold ourselves back from making and executing the choices we make for ourselves. <p>THIS IS WHAT I SAID TO MY WS BEFORE AND AFTER MY PLAN B:
Either you want it or you don't. Either you are M or you are not. My life isn't gonna end cause you lost your way. All I can do is continue to shine the path my way. You have to do the rest. <p>My actions spoke louder than my words, but that is just my situation. You have to do what is best for you. If you don't have you then who do your kids have? Who do you have? <p>My thoughts.
INTHECLOUDS320

ITC, you said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You can try to make your W see what she refuses to see until you are blue in the face. The plain fact is, she has to do that on her own and in her own time. All you can do express to her how you feel about the whole thing and what you will accept and not accept. Then you have to let it go. <p>You both are suffering. Do you want to continue on this way? Don't make this M be all about her when you know that a M takes 2 to survive and thrive. Your W is getting what she wants. What do you want? You are enabling her and she is taking full advantage of it. The A will end in due time. The more you push, the more she gets away from you. <p>IMHO, the only thing left to do is to Focus on you now. If you are willing to let her continue this EA with no consequences then you have to be prepared for the consequences of that choice as well. Are you prepared to let her carry this on for a year, 2 years, or more? Speaking from experience, you will be taking a risk of resentment build up if you do.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>And of course, you're absolutely right. I have stated my position as clearly as I can, indicating that I'm willing to give her some space (but not ALL the space), and that I will be patient (but not forever), and that I'm ready to move on if I have to (but I don't want to because I love her).<p>We're just at that point where Plan A has pretty much exhausted it's life, and there's very little left of my love before I have to go to the next step. I guess I'm giving it the last opportunity with her session with Steve, and then we'll see where it goes.<p>I do thank you for the frank and very accurate assessment. Sometimes we need these things trown in our faces, even though we know them, somehow we feel "I'm not there yet"...but I am, and you're right.

2Long, you said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> So, the question is: Given our WSs clearly DO want our Ms, not an A, how do we "help them" out of the fog without throwing them out on their ears after dinner? (maybe let them do the dishes first...). And the question IS this, because we really DO feel like we can be okay alone if we have to, but it doesn't look like we have to, and so why not do something good for our WSs and not blow the family apart. My 15yr-old doesn't know about the A, and loves his mom. If I can help her out of the fog without destroying his image of her, shouldn't I do so? And as for SC, he's got teenage kids too. Do they know about their mom's behavior? (I actually don't know). Do they need to know? (is this a situation where radical honesty isn't appropriate - after all, they're not part of the M, so it's not directly a "relationship" issue).<p> <hr></blockquote><p>That is EXACTLY what I feel...like I somehow have to squeeze a bit more time out of Plan A, somehow hang on because the turning point just might be around THIS bend, because a few signs have pointed in the right direction, and I feel like maybe, just maybe, she will finally get it...but it's almost an illusion. Events like yesterday just demolish the meager hope a few good signs had indicated.<p>But still...I feel the talk with Steve will be my next guiding post; I trust him and maybe if HE sees enough positive signs, and can somehow get thru to her, it could turn around. Just as suddenly as it happened before.<p>BTW, my kids do know about this. After all it's amost impossible for 1 19-year old and 2 16-year olds NOT to know something terrible's been going on between mom & dad...I had a talk with them about it, no gory details, just the outline, and to know that we're trying, we're working on it, and that things'll be OK. What more can I say to them...at this point, not much.<p>I do have some hope that Steve will find a path that we can follow; I still have faith, and hope it doesn't have to come to Plan B...at least not yet.

ITC:<p>Again, I'm sorry for distracting from SC's thread here, but he's right GQII gets a lot more traffic, and I should probably move my own from "in recovery" (which I'm angry enough that I'd probably say we're NOT today) to here.<p>"You know the A will eventually die down, but you don't know if it will "truly" end."<p>My situation is that the A "ended" back in November, before I found out. Trouble is, contact didn't, and some of it has been personal, including derogatory comments about me as recentlyl as last March. Also, W doesn't show me the emails anymore, so I have to "trust" that they're not personal. I can do that, up to a point. And I'm approaching the point.

"Meaning, will it be brought up in conversation everyday during and after? Yes, it probably will for a long time."<p>But since my W thinks that the problems in our M are "the elephant" not the A, I don't "get to" talk about the A to the extent that I'd like to.<p>"Of course it is okay to do something good for your WS. It is also okay to do something for yourself as well. Your life does not have to end because of the A. It just takes on a new look. That is why it is important that the BS focus on themselves during this negative time."<p>This is correct. It's also pretty hard. Particularly since, very much like SC, I've been doing things for my W all along, and still being told "you never do anything around here". Not so much lately, but still to some degree. These days, it's "not enough." So, the alternative is to tell my W that I'll do chores, but I won't make things for her, I won't go to swap meets with her, I'l focus on my kids and my own interests - which is one of the reasons my W chose to have an A (not the stuff with my kids, but the stuff by myself). I can't win. And so I find myself very much in love, feeling better about myself, and yet angrier all the time that the contact continues.<p>"The children's lives do not have to change as far as their thoughts on who their mother or father is or what they represent. They don't have to be involved or know anything that is going on. What you tell them or what you show them is all up to the BS and WS."<p>This is easiest to do. So long as we stay together, that is. If we separate, I can't lie about why.<p>"Noone knows the outcome of an A or the outcome of the M after the fact. You just have to focus on today. That is why a plan and goals are so important as well as talking, listening, and learning. It helps you pass the time. Boy, it helped me."<p>Knowing the answer before I ask it: Do you discuss your plans and timeframes with your S? I have been telling my W about my options, like selling the house before it's rebuild, being a single dad, that kind of thing, but I've not told her specifically how long I plan to give plan A before going to B. I do my best to talk with her and listen to her. But after the very positive conversation we had on Tuesday, it all reverted back to her gripes about ME and how I didn't listen to her, and how hard it is for her to contemplate giving up OM forever. I think she really wants me to come around and accept her desire to continue to be friends wiht him. I can't. I tell her I can't. The more she tries, the angrier I get (though not outwardly). <p>"Plan B has its advantages as well as disadvantages. That is why it is important to go into it after a sufficient amount of time and thought. Regardless of what plan you choose to be in, you must be in a place where you know you will be okay no matter how things turn out. That all falls back on working on yourself."<p>Yep. I've been in plan A, in a meaningful way that is, since about mid-March. I had been figuring on switching to plan B about when our rental coverage runs out in October and we have to move back into the house. It won't be done then, and so now it's not clear whether we might have to extend the rental period, or whether we'll have to move into the unfinished house. Kind of messes my plans up.<p>"The M cannot be worked on until both partners are working on it 100%. So, in the meantime, you and your children become your focus and not so much the A. Easier said then done but possible. Only we hold ourselves back from making and executing the choices we make for ourselves." <p>This is definitely the most subtle, difficult part.<p>"THIS IS WHAT I SAID TO MY WS BEFORE AND AFTER MY PLAN B:
Either you want it or you don't. Either you are M or you are not. My life isn't gonna end cause you lost your way. All I can do is continue to shine the path my way. You have to do the rest."<p>Very well said! <p>"My actions spoke louder than my words, but that is just my situation. You have to do what is best for you. If you don't have you then who do your kids have? Who do you have? "<p>Good points. I would have thought that my actions speak louder than my words, but apparently I'm too willing to do what needs to be done to defuse a situation to be tough enough for the message of my actions to get through. I feel like I'm fine but the M is not, and yet my W thinks we're rebuilding, when we clearly can't start while she's contacting OM. Contact is for work, but I don't see what's said, and I can't imagine there isn't SOME personal (i.e., how are you, you poor thing) crap in the emails. <p>Like now: OM's sister didn't drop off CD at office a week ago last monday, because she couldn't find it on map and so sent it in the mail. Postage was wrong or some such, so it went back to OM's office. OM sends WRONG CD to W's office (3-yr old report). OM goes to take truck from work to pick up expensive <non-specified stuff> to return to work. Truck breaks down midway in nowhere with all this priceless stuff in it. No word from OM and no sign of CD. ...I AIN'T MAKING THIS $HIT UP!!! That's what I'm hearing, JUST THIS AM. <p>Took son to school board hearing about another kid this am. Left for work about noon, with W kissing me goodby and all seeming "peachy." Meantime, I continue to burn alive inside. I'm getting to where even Just Learning's advice isn't keeping me calm for more than a few days at a time! (and he's GOOD [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] -Thanks JL)<p>Anyway, thanks again for your feedback, and sorry again to SC for stealing his thread! But I guess I thought we were going through similar crap right now, and maybe it would help. I don't mean to make this a mutual pity party - those are only fun in person and over good barley sodas. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care folks.

2Long;
Your story and mine are so similar, that what you post and the replies you get are just as helpful to me as they are to you.<p>I did want to add one thing; I'm behind in one aspect; my W does not acknowledge that the A continues. She insists it ended "weeks ago", but I know it's not true, and she refuses to demonstrate it, which confirms what I already know.<p>And since she insists it's over, anything related to talking about it, or its effects, or anything at all is "out of bounds"...so that make sit tough to try to move forward in any way.<p>So this adds another odd twist to my saga, but apart from that...pretty similar.

"So this adds another odd twist to my saga, but apart from that...pretty similar."<p>Yep... makes me want to go run over small animals on the way home from work... NOT!<p>(that was from a bumper sticker that was around about 20 years ago - dark humor)

small animals ooh noooh! I'd like to go stand outside holding something metal in the middle of all these severe thunder & lightning storms/tornado warnings we've been having. Zap me please!!<p>Dont you wish they'd invent a drug for the WS that we could slip in their food. Some aphrodesiac anti-infidelity truth serum!!<p>There are SO many in the same boat right now. See the posting from 'cant sleep'. Also for you guys check out the saga of GSN on the 'Emotional Needs' board. He has tried everything. W filed D but its not all over yet. Hmm?<p>Also could some of you (Orchid? remember me from last year- an emotional wreck) answer the post of ab69 under the "Negotiating in Marriage' board. She needs more responses. Accepting blame for H's affair when he says no SF, and she's 36 weeks pregnant!!<p>Sorry SC. I hope W will be open minded & truthful with Harley consultation. Good Luck.

Is it just me, or does it seem like Mother's Day has brought out the worst of WSs?<p>Maybe it's the guilt? "Mother told you not to hang out with people like that!"<p>;-)