<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cantletgo:
<strong>
Dont you wish they'd invent a drug for the WS that we could slip in their food. Some aphrodesiac anti-infidelity truth serum!!
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>YES!!!!!!<p>Until I find it, I ordered some of the Australian "Horny Goat Weed"...we'll see what it does...IF she'll try it! ;-)<p>Someone here gave it the following endorsement (paraphrasing here): "I was a once-a-month girl, and now I can't stop thinking about it!"<p>H---, at this point...I'll try ANYTHING!!!

SC:<p>Funny you should mention that. Heck, I'm scared to death that my W won't like the jewelry box I'm making for her, or I'll not finish it in time...<p>Like, when our 25th anniversary was coming up (and she was in her second A with OM), she said "I want a DV for our anniversary". I knew she was unhappy, but THAT doesn't give me enough information to figure out WHY (you BSs know what I mean, you particularly, SC). So, when I don't DO ANYTHING for our 25th (per AGREEMENT with WW, who hasn't told me she's having an A), she gets UPSET with ME. <p>Gee Willikers!

"I want a DV for our (25) anniversary".<p>She REALLY said that!?!?!?!?!<p>Yow! Ouch!!
Boy, they sure know how to hurt a guy, don't they? 25 years! You'd figure you'd be worth SOMETHING after all that time!<p>Don't feel too bad, though...D-Day for me was 4 days before our 22nd Anniv...talk about painful!

SC:<p>Hell yeah, she said that! Not only that time, but the time when I bought the car 11 years ago. She said "if you buy a car, I want a DV". Well, after that conversation, which was during lunch when I met her at her conference because I hadn't SEEN much of her and wasn't DOING that well at the time, I went out to get into my car (which at the time had 375,000 miles on it, I kid you not), and had to change a flat tire. It was leaking oil so bad that I never had to change it anymore (engine was squeaky clean inside!). Went to the dealer to "see what was there" and got talked into the deal. Didn't get the DV then, either...<p>Ironically, though I only kept that car for 6 months (felt so bad about it), my W and I had some of the most memorable SF in it one afternoon when I met her at school (tinted windows! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ), that even SHE brought that up this week!<p>Upshot is that we've been talking an awful lot about what's really been MY problems over the past tenth-century, and not particularly much about what's wrong with US (HER) NOW.<p>Just gotta keep takin' it...<p>Take me now, Lord (and I'm an atheist)

Well, we're back!<p>I had started another thread: <p>OK "Old-Timers", show your stuff! <p>and got some fabulous feedback and insight...in fact, I can now say I'm "getting it" much more than before...but I felt bad that the title of the post kinda' excluded all the other wonderful, helpful and supportive folks who perhaps do not consider themselves "MB Old-Timers", so I thought I'd bring it back here...so we can bring y'all back!<p>I'll post a couple of posts to bring you back up to speed....and get the discussion going again!<p>This was how I started that other thread:<p>I thought I'd re-post the original "Scenario" since I added some stuff I'd forgotten, and has come out in the thread.
Scenario:
• W had a short EA/PA with gym instructor 14 years ago
• I “forced” the end of that A, we never dealt with it; why, how, changes, etc.
• I never brought it up in anger or in any other way
• Subconsciously, I believe, I probably did hold it against her for all these years
• She says “you made me feel small”, and she’s probably right. My respect for her diminished.
• We never dealt with it, I was never conscious of the damage it did; this was a big mistake for us. We’ve probably been paying for it all these years in many ways.
• EA discovered 8 months ago, going on since approx 11/01
• My initial reaction was crazy, screaming, threat to throw her out, all the no-no stuff.
• Begging, pleading, negotiating; you know the routine
• 2 months of fights, arguments, accusations, all the nasty blue-meanie stuff
• At about 2 months, discovered “Divorce Remedy”, MB shortly thereafter, started putting into practice.
• Probably doing a “good” Plan A since about month 4 after DDay
• Lies, lies, lies, and only lies; about the A, the involvement, the contact, the reasons
• When confronted with evidence, hysterical screaming about her privacy, not possible to address evidence or what it means, or that it confirms the lies.
• WW does not acknowledge this has hurt me, us, M
• WW has not shown remorse of any kind
• WW feels she “has done nothing wrong”
• WW feels it is her “right” to have this R, and that I have no right to ask or know about it
• WW does not see that A and contact have to end
• WW does not see that the lies have to stop
• WW does not see that we need to deal with this
• WW does not acknowledge there is a “secret second life”
• WW has said that she wants M to continue and to improve
• WW has made great strides in fulfilling BS’s ENs
• WW believes doing this “should be enough” to show her commitment to M and BS
• BS has acknowledged and shown remorse for not fulfilling ENs
• BS has made great strides in fulfilling WW’s ENs
• BS has Plan A’d his b--- off
• BS has LB’d quite a bit at the beginning, brought under control
• BS and WW have been to IC and joint MC, WW has walked out of MC every time the lies are exposed
• BS has expressed desire to re-build, indicated patience will not last forever, offered to help WW in every way possible, asked for commitment to a “program” (hopefully Harley)
• WW does not want to talk about R, plan, issues
• WW does talk of the future, all the time
• WW has lied in the same way to her family, sister, close friends, etc.
• WW does not respond to or comment about BS’s letters, articles, books
OK, “old-timers”, what is the Harley formula for this one?
This in not a test, I have tried to stick to all MB principles, have prepared myself for D, or Plan B, what do I do?!?!?!?!?!

And these are the last few posts from that thread, which pretty much bring us back:<p>I have a couple of difficult questions.
I have been unemployed for over 8 months, starting just prior to discovering my W's EA. I certainly have been trying hard to find a job, but in this market, and especially in Houston, the job market is extremely difficult right now. Undoubtedly my state of mind trying to deal with the A hasn't helped, although I have tried very hard to not let that affect my job search.
One of the big problems is that Financial Support is one of the very major ENs for my W, and her position on this has basically been that regardless of what is happening with us, it is my first obligation to address that need. Clearly, this is the case, and I don't disagree with that at all. Basically I've been able to maintain most of the payments through several means, and although things are tight, we're not in dire straits yet. Yes, we're behind on some payments, and we've had to cut back on some non-essentials, but we're basically OK.
On the other hand, for several years she has not really contributed much to the family economic needs, using most of her income for personal things and some things for the kids. So I have asked that she try to help in this area, while I can get back on my feet again. Is this wrong? I mean, as it is, I've felt that I have carried the full burden of the family's financial needs for years, and since she is working, she should also contribute more than she does.
Which brings me to the other toughie; she feels she can demand this from me, and freely gives me he opinions about work, jobs, what I should do, etc. But if I try to do the same, it's a big LB. Nothing I say or suggest or recommend in this area is taken at all. And there are several areas where she could improve her income, etc. But she just discounts anything I say about this.
I feel she uses this as yet another excuse to not reciprocate and at least show some desire to compromise, negotiate, and display some desire of comitment to the M. I know it's probably unrealistic of me to expect anything like that right now, especially while the A is on-going, and she's shown very little desire to meet my ENs beyon some good efforts in some areas. But nothing beyond that.
Last night we had a discssion about this and I basically said; OK, you're right. Now are we going to attack this problem as a team, are you willing to take some advice and compromise also? And obviously it was not. So I said, look; I know I have to get a job, and I will continue to try, but I still feel we could do a better job if we did it together. So if you're not willing to work together, and at least try to implement some of the things we've talked about for so long, then I don't think you have the right to make these demands of me regarding MY job situation. This is probably seen as an LB by her, but I see it as a boundary...I mean should I just let her make demands about my work and not compromise and at least try to see some of what I have to say about hers? Is this wrong?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> by Faith1:
I'll try to answer your "ways to detach" question... this may be basic... so I apologize if it's stuff you already know. Just answering what comes to my mind. Stuff I have to practice every day. Stuff I practiced to help me move forward.
(other than the 180 list, right? Do you keep that in front of you and read it 2-3 times a day?)
Let her live her life, you live yours.
Don't let her decisions, emotions, reactions, comments, etc. affect YOUR decisions, reactions, etc. (refuse to ride the roller coaster)
Don't argue, or defend yourself. Tennis is fun, but is not the way to *win* in a relationship.
Let her live her life, and you live yours.
Answer her questions thoughtfully, but vaguely. Demonstrate (through body language and tone of voice) that you value her question, BUT you don't have to explain everything. You can even answer with "I'm not sure. I'll have to think about that."
Say "I'm sorry" a lot. Even if you didn't do anything wrong. "I'm sorry you feel that way." (prevents you from arguing or trying to prove a point)
Let her live her life, and you live yours.
Don't hold her responsible for your happiness. You can have a great day, regardless of her fog!
You see her walking towards the edge of a cliff, so do everything you can to save her, but don't go over with her. You've got her in counseling with Steve Harley (Yay!!!!!), keep reminding her you LOVE her, you want to spend time with her, and you don't want to share her, you are HERE working on yourself, and getting support that you need while SHE CAN'T provide it for you.... you're doing the right things. Now let her work through this. She *hears* you warning her about the cliff... let her decide to stop walking towards it. Just don't push her over, and don't walk over the edge with her.
Let her *choose* to be in your life. Be the guy she can fall in love with. Be a complement to her life. Let her complement your life.
If she was gone, Spacey, you'd HAVE to let her live her life, and you live yours. This applies to the job thing also (IMO), although I'm going to read your scenario and question again. If you were separated or divorced, you'd have to figure out the job thing without her. If you were separated or divorced, you'd have to learn to love yourself, rationalize with yourself, and you'd have to learn to let go. You wouldn't be able to preach, teach, convince, argue, plead, or blame. Set these things aside.
just my 2 cents ... hope a little bit of that helps<hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> by Orchid:
Ok I have reviewed your last response and here are my thoughts. It was a bit shorter this time.
quote:
Originally posted by Orchid:
The advantage is that you will be in recovery. You will recover. The recovery of your M is dependent on both the participation of you and your W. The Ws like to tell the BS that the BS does NOT have control over the Ws. This hurts but it is the one piece of truth that babbles out of the WS's mouth. Pay attention to those words because you will get to babble them back to the WS one day.
SP's response:
This is true I guess; but she uses other words. She says things like "we're not going to do this YOUR way, it always has to be YOUR way" or "I have the right to have this, this is mine, and only mine, and you have no right to ask about it" and things like that. Seems like she feels controlled...why would I say that back to her later, though?
O's rebuttal:
THAT IS WS BABBLE. DON’T FALL FOR IT. IGNORE IT.
O's quote:
When she needs to ‘explain’ something, does she or is there a lot of assumption on her part that you already know it anyway. There may be some type of inferiority complex here. That can be a hidden problem.
SP's response:
She babbles. Definitely makes assumptions. She holds very fast to her assumptions about what I think, how I feel, what I do, don't do, will do, won't do...no matter what I say or actually do, she holds to those assumptions. Refuses to see any changes.
It feels like she has to still make me out to be the guy she left for the OM, because seeing how things really were, or the reasons I did this or that, or any changes I've made would end the justification.
She definitely feels like I've always belittled her, dismissed her thoughts...rejected her way of doing things...I don't feel it's true, but she feels that.
Example; she'll come to me for advice on something. I give it to her. She agrees. Then doesn;t do it. Then, 2 weeks later, she comes back for the same advice; I'll give it to her....same cycle. Over and over.
After several times, I'll say: "jeez, why do you keep talking about this? we've discussed it xx times already. Do it or don't do it, but let's stop revisiting the same thing 100 times."
It's as if she wants to go over it again and again until I will agree with what she's doing about it; Nothing. Which I won't do. So then, when I get impatient, she can say; "see, if it's not your way, nothing is good"....
O's rebuttal:
HOWZ ABOUT AGREEING WITH HER? That should throw her off course? Then let her wonder what that agreement means.
There was less to answer this time around. Looks like you are getting it now comes the application piece which I think you really are doing already. Easy to say hard to do. Right now she is going to think bad of you no matter how good you are so why sweat it? Just be what you comfortably can and as agreeable as is humanly possible. Don’t offer too much info, just agree, look and walk away.
Better to keep her gray cells working!!!! <hr></blockquote><p>I guess those were more or less the answers I was expecting. It certainly throws her off when I do the unexpected...I need to keep doing that. And the evasiveness...just drives her nutty...kinda' fun! I think both of them make her stop and think.
Just today, she comes to me and says; "you know what? that argument we had on Sunday, you were right. And I'm sorry. You were right."
We'd had a silly argument because I came in from the yard, P----- as H--- because the dog chewed up the telephone cable box. Man, I was fuming! and I said so.
She immediately gets defensive and nasty like "That's not my fault!!, why are you screaming at me?!?!" and I said "I'm not screaming at you! I'm p----- at the dog! Can't I come in and complain when I'm angry!?!!?, how come it's OK for you to do the same when the kids do something and I can't do it?"
Well, the argument turned ridiculous...she did not accept that it's the same thing, that she also does it, and it's not personal....yada, yada...until I just walked out of it.
So I guess it's progress when she comes back today and says I was right and apologizes...that's a lot of pain for such a small step!
We'll see what heppens next week with our first joint session with Steve...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> by Orchid:
Good Spacecase,
My nutty methods work better in the fog?!?!?! LOL!!
Not that you wish your W to be wrong but acknowledgement and apology is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately it is not a guarantee that she will continue in that manner from now on all the time but once done means it can be done again. Guess that goes for anything but hopefully this good step will last longer. She needs to know she can feel better about herself.
That A virus makes the Ws insensitive to apologies. Well the antivenom helps them see that apologies are not the end of the world but the beginning of the healing.
Keep up the good work!!! Howz the dog?<hr></blockquote><p>The dog's fine...hate that animal; chews up the trees, plants, cables, A/C, it's cost me thousands!
I'm perplexed at all this...she seems to want to get a lot closer to me, a lot of kissing and hugging that has not been there for some time. Passionate kissing...just out of character.
Also lovemaking...much more than before...sometimes during the day, which is really odd. Maybe she's doing 180's on me!
Also, yesterday after almost 2 years of back and forth discussions about her partner in the business and how they should separate...she finally did it! I'm totally amazed!
We have had these discussions for years. She asks my opinion, I give it, she says I'm right, going to do it...never does it. Then the same discussion starts all over again, same result, same action; nothing. And suddenly, after our Sunday spat, when I said I thought it was time for her to take a bit more responsibility for our expenses, and about the pressure I have felt in being the sole provider, even while being out of work...she finally did it!
And you know what? Her partner told her she's right, that she's not interested in the business any more, that my W has been doing most of the work, and my W should just keep the business on her own....not even a peep about payment or anything! (It's really an agency/broker business so there's not much in the way of assets...just the work each one puts into getting the business)...so amazingly, in just a couple of days, she finally does something that has caused us grief for years, and it turns out better than either one of us could have expected...just amazing!
So now I'm the one who's off balance...don't have a clue what this could mean at all...is it positive? For sure. What prompted it? don't know. Am I suspicious and off-balance? YES.
Is she coming out of the fog? Is she acknowledging some of my EN's and trying to meet them? yes. What does it REALLY mean? Will it last?
Does it indicate some action in terms of the OM is at hand? hope so!<p>Thoughts?

SC: From your Old Timer thread (and yes, I felt a bit uncomfortable there - not old time enough re MB, WW still in fog - but I'm quite comfortable being an Old Fart - but that wasn't the title of your thread, either [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>"The dog's fine...hate that animal; chews up the trees, plants, cables, A/C, it's cost me thousands!"<p>In some countries, it's legal to eat dogs. Maybe Texas?.... Sorry about that to all dog-lovers out there. My revolting sense of humor again!<p>"I'm perplexed at all this...she seems to want to get a lot closer to me, a lot of kissing and hugging that has not been there for some time. Passionate kissing...just out of character."<p>Um... ...like, try to enjoy yourself! This is quite acceptable in Plan A.<p>"Also lovemaking...much more than before...sometimes during the day, which is really odd. Maybe she's doing 180's on me!"<p>Um... ...like, try to ENJOY yourself!!! <p>"And suddenly, after our Sunday spat, when I said I thought it was time for her to take a bit more responsibility for our expenses, and about the pressure I have felt in being the sole provider, even while being out of work...she finally did it!"<p>Good for you! I mean, her! I mean, both of you!<p>"So now I'm the one who's off balance...don't have a clue what this could mean at all...is it positive? For sure. What prompted it? don't know. Am I suspicious and off-balance? YES."<p>Um... ...like, try not to worry too much about it, is what I would do. Factor it into your plan A as a positive thing. Or at least something you don't have to worry about ON TOP of how you're doing with your plan A.<p>"Is she coming out of the fog? Is she acknowledging some of my EN's and trying to meet them? yes. What does it REALLY mean? Will it last?"<p>Time.<p>"Does it indicate some action in terms of the OM is at hand? hope so!"<p>That would be majorly neat. But don't get your hopes up too much. I did this after my W's fog thinned briefly 2 weeks ago, thinking she was ready to get working on W/D, but then it fizzled. Because I had gotten my hopes up so much (it was the first true sign of fog lifting since January), I was very angry and depressed as a result (which you saw in my recent posts). Try not to go there, yourself.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:...
"I'm perplexed at all this...she seems to want to get a lot closer to me, a lot of kissing and hugging that has not been there for some time. Passionate kissing...just out of character."<p>Um... ...like, try to enjoy yourself! This is quite acceptable in Plan A.<p>"Also lovemaking...much more than before...sometimes during the day, which is really odd. Maybe she's doing 180's on me!"<p>Um... ...like, try to ENJOY yourself!!! </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>Did I sound like I was complaining...? This is GREAT!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>"So now I'm the one who's off balance...don't have a clue what this could mean at all...is it positive? For sure. What prompted it? don't know. Am I suspicious and off-balance? YES."<p>Um... ...like, try not to worry too much about it, is what I would do. Factor it into your plan A as a positive thing. Or at least something you don't have to worry about ON TOP of how you're doing with your plan A.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well here's the deal: from day one (DDay) and all her actions since, I have had the very strong feeling that she wanted to buy time. Always delaying, always lying, always not deciding...and I have felt very, very strongly that she needed to buy time. Time for what? I don't know...but always time, time, time. So the suspicious guy in me always thinks things like she's waiting to spring it on me, when the time is right; dump me when X happens with OM. What X could be, the OM's appeal, coming into some money...I don't know! But I've always had that suspicion that she's just waiting for something to happen to bail out on me...so anything like this just ignites that little flame of suspicion, wakes that little devil who says: Watch out! She's gonna' get ya!
Am I just being paranoid?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>"Is she coming out of the fog? Is she acknowledging some of my EN's and trying to meet them? yes. What does it REALLY mean? Will it last?"<p>Time.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't like this...I get a bad feeling...it's probably just my own fear of losing her that prompts it, and maybe the "controller" in me...but anything that smells of her gaining just feels like she's going to nail me. It's only because she's just done it so many, many times since dday...the lies so she could continue the R, the new methods of communication, everything has pointed to her secret agenda...and obviously none of that bodes well for me. I DO NOT trust her! Not a single little bit! <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>"Does it indicate some action in terms of the OM is at hand? hope so!"<p>That would be majorly neat. But don't get your hopes up too much. I did this after my W's fog thinned briefly 2 weeks ago, thinking she was ready to get working on W/D, but then it fizzled. Because I had gotten my hopes up so much (it was the first true sign of fog lifting since January), I was very angry and depressed as a result (which you saw in my recent posts). Try not to go there, yourself.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know I shouldn't expect very much. I don't. But it's sad that things are so bad with trust and credibility, that when things that are supposed to be good, that could indicate that the Plan A is working, that would indicate some lifting of the fog, all I feel is uncertainty and suspicion; a very deep distrst in her REAL intentions...

SC:<p>I MISSED this golden setup:<p>""Also lovemaking...much more than before...sometimes during the day, which is really odd. Maybe she's doing 180's on me!""<p>by not responding with something like:<p>Turnabout is foreplay! or:
Q: What's the square root of 69?
A: 8-something!

SC:<p>"Am I just being paranoid?"<p>Yes.<p>Remember when you pulled me back from this madness recently?

2long, U R badddddddd!!!!<p>but hey, I was still wondering what "doing 180's" was like. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>2long, U R badddddddd!!!!<p>but hey, I was still wondering what "doing 180's" was like. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Wish I could tell you, Faith! But it's been toooooo many years since I did any of those wild gymnastics!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>"Am I just being paranoid?"<p>Yes.<p>Remember when you pulled me back from this madness recently?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know, 2L; I'm just very, very nervous...don't know what to tell you; but I'm not going to do anything crazy...just vent my frustrations and anxiety here! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Billboard:<p>For you folks that know my story, check out my new thread in GQII and tell me what you think I oughta do.<p>(Sorry SC, for telling you not to be paranoid and immediately getting paranoid myself, again!).

I don't know if this is a new development or not, but early next week I should get definitive confirmation of WWs contact w/OM, calls and visits, for the last several months.<p>I'm thinking, OK, what if she is talking to him daily, or close to it, and what if she did go and see him while in FL a few weeks back? Can I just keep quiet about that and let Steve Harley do his magic for a few weeks to see where we go? Or should I just calmly confront her with the facts, ask her to finally make a choice and go to Plan B if she doesn't?<p>I don't know; it'll be very, very, very hard for me to know about the contact in detail and NOT say anything, but maybe we can still work something out with Steve, and maybe it is just best to go for the shock treatment right away; choose now or I'm in Plan B.....<p>Thoughts? Please....

How will you get this proof? (fair question?)<p>Before making a decision, wait at least til your counseling with Steve Monday. See how that goes.<p>And I think it's still too early for you to go to Plan B.<p>I think if you find continued contact - or more than you thought - you would still try to negotiate in Plan A. Let us know what you find out before you do anything with it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Unless plan A leaves the wayward spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder." <hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. <hr></blockquote><p>- from Harley's explanations of Plan A and Plan B.<p>Steve would also tell you (if he hasn't already) to get his advice before moving to Plan B.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>How will you get this proof? (fair question?)</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not a fair question [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Trust me!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> Before making a decision, wait at least til your counseling with Steve Monday. See how that goes. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely. Nothing will happen before the joint session with Steve. In fact, after that call I may do one with Steve to run this by him...although I know what he will say...wait, give it time.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>And I think it's still too early for you to go to Plan B.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>And this would be why?<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think if you find continued contact - or more than you thought - you would still try to negotiate in Plan A. Let us know what you find out before you do anything with it.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, that is precisely what I had in mind; negotiate. Something like, "OK, I know this is happening, we cannot rebuild our M while it continues, will you agree to end it now so we can have a chance at rebuilding?"<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Steve would also tell you (if he hasn't already) to get his advice before moving to Plan B.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No question of that. I'm just trying to get some feedback, experiences, feelings from those who know my situation....<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Why do I think it's too early? Just cuz.... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ok... so you make me think [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I bumped up a Heartpain thread I thought you would enjoy. Not sure if it was around when you joined.<p>Lemme think about "why", and see what I can come up with.... other than Heartpain's thread, as well as the stuff I posted for JR. Please check those out and see if they do anything for ya... they may not. <p>In general... I believe that some people move to Plan B too quickly. Some move too slowly. But I believe your situation could tolerate more time and patience. DEPENDING on what you find out next week as far as continued contact. And based on your number of years together - I think the investment is worth it to not rush this.<p>Your W is calling in to Steve H. with you. I think that speaks for a LOT as far as her commitment - unless she's a great actress. Steve can lead you two - lead her into writing a NC letter - lead her into POJA's with you, etc. <p>IMHO... if HE can't accomplish those things, along with YOUR excellent Plan A, THAT would be the time to move to Plan B.<p>That's all this end-of-the-week brain can come up with right now. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

SC,
IMHO, I was in Plan A my whole marriage. My way of contributing to the A was NOT confronting and allowing it to go on for so long. SO, if your Plan A is not much different then how you have lived your married life than Plan B most certainly can go into effect immediately. <p>As you can see by my signature line, EVERYTIME there was contact - I went into immediate Plan B. That way, he learned (hopefully) contacting OW=pain/abandonement/homelessness etc. It is NOT a demand, it is a choice - choose her and you are free to leave, choose me and there is NO her in this equation!<p>But since you are meeting with Steve Monday, yes I would say it can wait that long. <p>I think people get confused. Confronting in love, is NOT a LB. In fact being radically honest includes being radically honest with your spouse about your feelings AND the facts you have on her. Withholding/hiding info ONLY encourages her behavior. Your mad at her for withholding info about her contacting OM and you are doing the same thing! Withholding facts from her about that you already know about OM! <p>For me, at one point, I was in the obsessive compulsive mode that I had to find more proof. So you keep digging/snooping and withholding infor until you get some good hard proof (like a picture of them together or something). The problem is 1) that kind of proof is hard to find and you have a gazzilion other small facts that lead any person with common sense to ALREADY know the worst is happening. 2) you are allowing it to progress to a level you don't want it to get to. IF you confront immediately, they are exposed and they need to make decisions which can happen before a fullblown PA actually occurs. <p>Confronting in love would be: "honey, I love you and I want to work on our marriage and I found out that you are in contact with OP". Then the WS usually gets VERY angry and says something like "I am not in contact with OP, your crazy, your so jealous and controlling..." then respond in love calmly "honey, I'm not trying to find out IF it is true because I already know that it is and here is a copy of the email between you two proving that there has been contact" then they go off about how you are snooping,crazy, possesive etc. Then you respond: "you need to move out until you can decide who you want to be with, I love you and I want you here, but not like this."

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>
I bumped up a Heartpain thread I thought you would enjoy. Not sure if it was around when you joined. <p>Lemme think about "why", and see what I can come up with.... other than Heartpain's thread, as well as the stuff I posted for JR. Please check those out and see if they do anything for ya... they may not. <hr></blockquote></strong><p>I'll look for these...thanks!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
In general... I believe that some people move to Plan B too quickly. Some move too slowly. But I believe your situation could tolerate more time and patience. DEPENDING on what you find out next week as far as continued contact. And based on your number of years together - I think the investment is worth it to not rush this.<hr></blockquote></strong><p>OK, this is a good reason. I know I can tolerate it now; what I don't know is if I can tolerate it after I find out what's REALLY going on! Maybe it'll be a pleasant surprise...but I doubt it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Your W is calling in to Steve H. with you. I think that speaks for a LOT as far as her commitment - unless she's a great actress. Steve can lead you two - lead her into writing a NC letter - lead her into POJA's with you, etc.<hr></blockquote></strong>

Well, yes. This is a good sign, but, and that's a big BUT: Remember she has signed on to Steve's joint MCing on the basis of "Steve is helping me become a better husband, and we need your help in doing that", not on the basis of her having become a believer in their methods of M recovery. She has never talked about the A with S, or that this will come up, or No Contact, or POJA, nothing like that yet! And the last two MCs we went to she bailed out of as soon as the "unpleasant" subject came up....so I'm guarded in my optimism with this.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
IMHO... if HE can't accomplish those things, along with YOUR excellent Plan A, THAT would be the time to move to Plan B.<hr></blockquote></strong><p>Completely agree; in principle. The question is if I can tolerate a continuation of major contact (based on what I will know) long enough for this to happen...THAT is the question...I'm trying!