You know, SC, a lot of what's in your story, I see in mine...<p>About 9 months now... some promising words here and there - even admitting responsibility, etc... some signs of "improvement" here and there in meeting some EN's... refusing to give up OM, regardless of the health of the A... etc.<p>I agree that following SH's advice is really good... but in the end, it's about you, as you well know. Last I talked to SH (a while ago now), he was willing to help me get ready for Plan B... got me to e-mail him a copy of my Plan B letter, asked me to think about logistics, etc. That was before my discovery about the continuing PA. When I discovered that... I really realized where I was standing... it was like coming out of a bomb shelter after WW III... a bleak desert. I just knew in my mind that Plan B had arrived... I had most of the details in my mind ready. I simply put them in motion, realizing I was in God's hands (and my own) now. When I talk to SH next (next Tuesday), it'll more or less be an update of where I am... not sure what else he or anyone else can do for me right now. It's now a matter of time, waiting out the full, complete and utter death of the A. It will happen, just a question of when.<p>I haven't regretted it... time will tell on the final outcome. But I do feel a lot more at peace in Plan B right now. It's a little intimidating, sure. But I'm focusing on myself, taking care of me. And in doing so, I am achieving that goal of preserving my love for WW.<p>I guess my point is you can see the calmness, the resolve in my words. I think that's what told me I was ready for Plan B.<p>Keep on 'a plugging!

I guess I just have to hold on a bit longer. I'm afraid of my reaction when I see the contact information I'll be getting tomorrow. But I have been preparing for that for some time now, and it's not really going to contain any surprises. I know there's contact...that's it.<p>As I think this through, though, here's what I'm seeing; Steve is working hard on this "privacy" (Read "how to hide the affair without having to say so") thing because he knows that's what it'll come down to. Either we can reach honesty or not. And he knows that if we cannot, then there's precious little that can be done to move forward.<p>But he does feel like he's making some progress. He said he's "chipping away" at it, and she's starting to see it...just starting; but that it's been a way of life for her for so long, that it's not going to happen as quickly as it otherwise might.<p>Bottom line;
- I'm going to have some information that she's not going to like to hear. I have some now, I'll just have more tomorrow.
-We will somehow "confront" her with it. Steve, or me, nice, or not nice.
-She will be at a turning point. Decision-time; no getting away from it this time; not with Steve in the middle.<p>She'll have two options;<p>1. She deals with it (don't ask me how...just deals with it)<p>2. She does not deal with it.<p>If she does deal with it, we move forward; some plan for ending it and no contact, whatever.<p>If she doesn't deal with it, then it's decision-time for me. Keep doing the same (fat chance), Plan B, Plan D...

SC:<p>This is hard. Very hard. I feel like you in many ways right now. The issue is measured dishonesty, and how do I deal with it? After having some good talks with WW about radical honesty, I find this week that she's got a hotmail acct (okay, so she SHOWED it to me by using my laptop), she's been in limited communication with OM about HIS M in addition to the report thang, AND a little while ago she said she may have to call him on the phone! I'm now wondering how much phone calling has actually gone on between them. Not that I need to know - I HAVE proof that she's still contacting him and that his W has found out and gone ballistic ( [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , frankly), and at the same time I have her saying lovey-dovey crap to me about US, our family, or future, our house... All without any effort to let me into her li'l private existence. I can't take this anymore either. But I will try. I will also try very hard to blow this all wide open at our MC on Tuesday, because I need her to get off the fence as soon as possible. Either that or I'm going to have to put together a customized plan B for my particular situation. <p>"The thing about depression is... ...well, you just can't let it get you down!" -King Crimson, 'ProzaKc Blues'

I'm with you 2L;
Maybe the "Crisis" creates the opportunity for change. In your case, the revelations about communication, and the S--- hitting the fan with OM's W.<p>In my case, Steve and a confrontation with the truth...<p>Who knows...there may be hope yet! We can but try.

Does anyone ever resolve and recommit in Plan A? I know I haven't done plan A long enough but it seems that the BS recovers some self esteem but eventually then they have to push the B envelope to get their WS to sit up and take notice. I think I got the fact that "A" is about the BS and leaving good feelings with the WS but I have yet to hear of one who did not eventually have to got to "B". I know I am rambling.<p>I am also curious abotu ground rules. Is it okay for the BS to initiate physical contact or should you leave that up to WS? I have left that up to him. Do you ever ask them if it is over yet or is that annoying like the kids saying "are we there yet"? How do you enjoy the few positive gestures with out immediately thinking "did he do this for her"? Do you only truct actions and not word?<p>I am getting a little unfocused.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RNROSCOE:
<strong>Does anyone ever resolve and recommit in Plan A? I know I haven't done plan A long enough but it seems that the BS recovers some self esteem but eventually then they have to push the B envelope to get their WS to sit up and take notice. I think I got the fact that "A" is about the BS and leaving good feelings with the WS but I have yet to hear of one who did not eventually have to got to "B". I know I am rambling.<p>I am also curious abotu ground rules. Is it okay for the BS to initiate physical contact or should you leave that up to WS? I have left that up to him. Do you ever ask them if it is over yet or is that annoying like the kids saying "are we there yet"? How do you enjoy the few positive gestures with out immediately thinking "did he do this for her"? Do you only truct actions and not word?<p>I am getting a little unfocused.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know the stats on this, but many WS do realize pretty quickly that they have done something wrong and committ to ending it, and working on the M, so I guess it does happen.<p>Of course, there's all levels of this. In my W's case, she's completely in denial, does not see that it's really wrong, or that it hurts us, does not want to end it and has done everything humanly possible to keep uo the deceit, does NOT talk about it, does not allow me to talk about it...<p>On the other hand, she has been a lot more loving, more SF than before, says she wants to stay married and fix our problems, she just doesn;t think the A is one of them!<p>No rules here, RNR; every situation is unique, and like I said in a previous post, you've got to be ready for anything! No amount of planning, or predicting, will ever be on target.

I wish there was some right or wrong. I can be patient and loving but I see this other woman a lot. Kids in same activities. I missed my D soccer game last night because she would be there. I have to get over the sight of her hurting me. She is so different looking that me. She is probably 5'5", 145lbs and I am 5'2", 102lbs. She is younger than me but I don't look too bad for 43. (Wishful thinking) Anyway, it is so hurtful to see her and wonder what the true attraction was. I think he picked her to get even with me because I never liked her.<p>I am very evil today. I better let it go and like peter pan "think lovely thoughts"

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RNROSCOE:
<strong>I wish there was some right or wrong. I can be patient and loving but I see this other woman a lot. Kids in same activities. I missed my D soccer game last night because she would be there. I have to get over the sight of her hurting me. She is so different looking that me. She is probably 5'5", 145lbs and I am 5'2", 102lbs. She is younger than me but I don't look too bad for 43. (Wishful thinking) Anyway, it is so hurtful to see her and wonder what the true attraction was. I think he picked her to get even with me because I never liked her.<p>I am very evil today. I better let it go and like peter pan "think lovely thoughts"</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Don't do this to yourself, RNR. Most experts agree it is almost never about physical appearance. Try to control those thoughts, as they are destructive to you.<p>You are a good and honest person, and that is worth much more than anything else! Big HUG!!!

OK, should I end this thread and start "Affairs that don't end...the sequel/Part II" ?<p>Or is it better to keep it all here? It feels like many people don't even want to visit because they say "shoot; that's too long to catch up"<p>Thoughts?

My vote is to start a new one. <p>Usually when I see a long thread, I don't want to fool with it. Somehow I jumped in on your story a long time ago, and is like a good book you can't put down. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I sent you an e-mail... to spacecase59@yahoo.com. See if you got it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>My vote is to start a new one. <p>Usually when I see a long thread, I don't want to fool with it. Somehow I jumped in on your story a long time ago, and is like a good book you can't put down. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I sent you an e-mail... to spacecase59@yahoo.com. See if you got it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think I will start a new one. I guess it's "intimidating" to see 20+ pages...we think, oh boy, I'll never catch up!

SC,<p>I have been a lurker on your thread and have been interested in your progress partly because my H and I are counseling with SH too.<p>Also I have been impressed with how courageous you have been to be so good at using MB principles in your situation. That said...I've been wondering a couple of things that may be of help to you.<p>Like others I was so impressed with the luncheon discussion you had with you WS that you posted on page 18 of this thread. Wow, she really opened up! She's interested in continuing counseling with SH; she took responsibility for her mistakes, and she told you she was sorry. ALL IN ONE SITTING!! That is profound!<p>Since the day you posted page 18, I have noticed that your roller coaster ride became more severe. <p>My thought is that it's possible that since her openness at the luncheon; you finally have a little space to address some of the feelings YOU have that may have been surpressed prior to the luncheon. <p>You have been doing such an incredible Plan A; and with the SH counseling you are finally taking your relationship with her in the direction you want to go.<p>Do you suppose that some of your fears can finally feel safe enough to come to the surface?<p>I think that with the tremendous potential your R with WS has now since the luncheon that you need to give yourself a little space to get comfortable with the possibilities of success.<p>Hope you take this in the way I intend and are not offended. You're shaping up to be one of the success stories around here. Best wishes...CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>SC,<p>I have been a lurker on your thread and have been interested in your progress partly because my H and I are counseling with SH too.<p>Also I have been impressed with how courageous you have been to be so good at using MB principles in your situation. That said...I've been wondering a couple of things that may be of help to you.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Csue;
My sincere thanks for the "courageous" part; I'm a believer. Pure and simple. My W had another A 14 years ago, and I've come to realize the enormous damage that did to us, primarily because we DID NOT deal with it properly back then. So when I found out about this A, I said to myself; OK, this time we're doing it right, or we're not doing it at all. I'm serious; I'm 43, if I divorce now I still have a decent chance to find another partner who will be committed to me and love me, with whom I can share my last 20-some years on this earth. I don't want this to be another open wound, partially patched up with a band-aid, just to end up divorced and bitter in 3, 5, 10 years.<p>So I searched and searched, read dozens of books about this, and settled on Harley. All in all there are 2 or 3 "methods" that are very similar, and have had similar success, but I liked Harley because it is more structured, more planned, and I like that (of all things, I'm a Project Manager...talk about the least likely to succeed type of personality for this! Control, Deadline, Stability, Politics. About the only part that does contribute is the Crisis Management!!!)<p>So here I am, struggling through this as best I can; trying hard to keep the feelings and the method separate (boy, that's tough!) and wading thru these uncharted waters of my heart, mind, and body, while at the same time trying somehow to stay sane, not drive the kids and the family nuts, and give my WW the chance to learn some as well, and join me in this crusade. Join me, but TRULY join me; a believer like me.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Like others I was so impressed with the luncheon discussion you had with you WS that you posted on page 18 of this thread. Wow, she really opened up! She's interested in continuing counseling with SH; she took responsibility for her mistakes, and she told you she was sorry. ALL IN ONE SITTING!! That is profound!<p>Since the day you posted page 18, I have noticed that your roller coaster ride became more severe. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, you are correct on both counts; it WAS profound, and the roller coaster has become a hurricane-strength howler!<p>Witness my new "tag-line": "Plan for the worst, Hope for the best, and hang on to your hats!"<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My thought is that it's possible that since her openness at the luncheon; you finally have a little space to address some of the feelings YOU have that may have been surpressed prior to the luncheon. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'll need you to explain this to me; I don't quite get your drift...it sounds very intriguing and interesting to explore. Tell me more...<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You have been doing such an incredible Plan A; and with the SH counseling you are finally taking your relationship with her in the direction you want to go.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know about "Incredible Plan A", I've been getting better and better at it, but I have my down days where I send things back to square one, and my good days, when she seems to stand up and ask herself if this is real...all in all a decent Plan A, I guess, since she IS showing signs of progress. But it's painfully slow, and I'm not one to deal with that pace easily; that's been my worst enemy. The "baby-steps" thing has been a life-saver for me...without that thought ptocess, I'd have put us all out of our misery long ago!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Do you suppose that some of your fears can finally feel safe enough to come to the surface?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is another one you're going to have to elaborate on for me...not quite sure what you mean, but very intriguing nonetheless.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think that with the tremendous potential your R with WS has now since the luncheon that you need to give yourself a little space to get comfortable with the possibilities of success.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think you're right with this; not quite sure how to deal with it. One gets so used to the presence of the brick wall we're trying to tear down, and when pieces of it start to fall, we're not sure what to do with it!<p>It's hard to know what the next step may be, there's fear of "blowing it" by doing something different or changing things we've finally become good at doing. It's scary...uncharted waters!<p>And yet; what I feel the most is perhaps that now that SOME progress is showing, the pace should pick up, things should start falling into place, the next steps should be easier, but it seems that is not the case, and it's frustrating and very annoying. Steve is keeping me calm, and holding me on a tight leash, lest I lose our hard-earned progress!<p>Time will tell; but frankly, I'm pretty close to doing something dramatic!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Hope you take this in the way I intend and are not offended. You're shaping up to be one of the success stories around here. Best wishes...CSue</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I have no idea what you could possibly mean by this. Your post was wonderful, has some very intriguing thoughts behind it, and I am not one to offen easily anyway!<p>I appreciate your taking the time to read all this, especially my often-rambling, psychotic posts, and I look forward to hearing your elaboration on those two very interesting thoughts, so we can discuss them further.<p>As to "shaping up to be one of the success stories around here", G_d-willing, and with everyone's support, and if my M and the process survives my numerous failings, I pray that one day this may indeed be the case.<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Space, I had a minute to read your post; but have to run for the time being. I'll respond to your questions via WORD; when I can think and type properly and explain what I mean. I know what I want to say; just need to find the words. SH is great isn't he! More later, CSue

I guess I'll wait for more feedback before starting "Affairs that don't end...the sequel"
In the meantime, so we can all have something to ponder over the weekend.....<p>OK, this is what I'm thinkin': My WW finally accepts to do counseling with Steve. And it turns out she likes him, and she's been working with him, gaining some trust, and Steve, of course, is taking it easy on her, not letting himself push her too hard too fast, so it's working out. In the meantime, Steve basically has me in a holding pattern, kinda' like letting the W play catch-up. So far so good. (Except tham It's driving me crazy, but that's part of the BS's job, isn't it? so we're cool.) She's had 3-4 session with him, and things seem to be moving in the right direction. Anyway; he's laying it on pretty slowly, letting her work things thru, learn, etc. and he has her do these "assignments" that I know nothing about. But it's OK, I mean she's doing the Cing, she likes him, she seems to be gaining trust, so all is good.<p>Then she springs the "I accept responsibility for what I did" and "I'm sorry I hurt you this way" thing on me last week, floors me, and I'm pretty happy; I mean this is PROGRESS! Really, 9 months from DDay, this is the first REAL sign of progress, at least in the "getting it" department.<p>Another week goes by, though, and that's it. I mean no change in her behavior, no talking about the A, OM, nothing. So I'm thinking; this doesn't FEEL right. She's still doing her little "phone" thing (incessantly picking up her home office phone to listen for messages), she's still doing the same old "out of the house between 10-11AM" thing, and all the other little "things" that she's done, no signs of any other change.<p>So I ask myself; well, IF she's being honest about what she said, there should be some other changes, right? I mean something! Talk about how the A started, how it ended, changing her tune in terms of wanting to talk about it, asking me what I feel/felt, SOMETHING! But nothing at all.<p>So I say to myself; calm down, this is a slow process, give her time, etc. I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, always a believer that she'll eventually come around and become the wondeful, loving wife she once was.<p>Then we have another session with Steve, and we're supposed to start discussing our EN and LB questionnaires after this session, after she's completed her "assignments". By the end of the call steve says "change in plans; we can't go on with the EN/LB thing yet because she hasn't finished the assignments, and she's still got a serious problem with the "privacy" issue. She feels she'll lose her individuality, etc. and she feels that there are things that she has which I am not entitled to know or ask about, etc. and that she's just not there yet in terms of that.<p>So I'm freaking out! I'm saying "Steve; what do you mean? that "privacy" thing is a very transparent attempt at keeping the A secret, and to keep it going. Why would you let her get away with that?" and he says he's "chipping away at it" and he needs more time, and besides, he's given her more "assignments" as well as having her complete the ones she did not finish...<p>Well, I'm just not OK with that. She is obviously just saying what Steve has asked her to say, but she does not really mean it. So what is the purpose of that? Without comprehension of what it means, without acknowledgement of what it means, and without internalizing and accepting the premise behind the words, what is the purpose of just saying them?<p>Maybe I'm off base here, and there's a strategy behind this, like "get her used to that thought" or "get her to think about what it means" or something, but I just don't see it. Yet, anyway.<p>Now I know the A continues, not because I have definitive proof yet, (I will), but because of other indicators I've been gathering; phone calls to her friends in Orlando where she stayed before when she visited OM, made right before her last trip there, calls to other "friends" that I believe are somehow associated with the OM, calls to car rental companies the day of her trip, when she told me she was not getting a rental, 30 minute calls to a misterious 800 number than answers: "enter your PIN, please", etc. etc. And this is all besides the no change in all her "habits" which I've come to associate with contact because I drove her underground and out of the house for all contact due to snooping.<p>So what am I gettimng at? Well, that I understand that Steve needs to build rapport with my WW before he makes any more serious moves, OK, I can understand that. That it's a slow process, OK, that it IS progress to have her say she takes responsibility and is sorry, OK, I agree.<p>BUT; What is the purpose of having her say that to me if she doesn't really mean it? If she doesn't intend to take some concrete ACTION to back up her words? Maybe to gauge my reaction and see if it's "safe" to start talking? OK, that I can live with. But there'll have to be more, and soon, for that to keep me sane and under control. I've been Plan Aing for 5 months, 9 months since DDay, 1 year and 7 months since the A started (that I know of)...this just cannot go on much longer!<p>And besides, if she has not come around enough in these 9 months since dday to tell the truth, admit the A, talk about it, end it, build trust, and just keeps lying, to me AND to Steve? what's the point?<p>She's in a nice place, believe me! I'm being the best husband I've ever been, I'm not asking for anything in return, I'm not snooping and confronting (as far as she's concerned, she's home-free!), and she has the adoring convict OM, eternally grateful and vociferous in his admiration and thanks for all she does for him, I mean, this is just great! FOR HER!<p>So when is it time for me? When is it time to move this thing forward?<p>Plan B is looking more attractive every day. I'm ready, (been ready), and as time goes on with no "real" progress in Plan A, I lose faith that it'll ever work, or that she'll ever get it on her own. I mean, there's no incentive. And she is SO very far away from understanding, much less accepting, any of the Basic Concepts, and even much less adopting them, I have no illusions that she EVER will, certainly not anytime soon.<p>And in my situation in particular, Plan B is almost a no-brainer. 9 months since dday, 5 solid months of Plan A, and the OM is in prison. Pretty tough for him to fulfill all ENs. Even if she moved to Orlando near the prison it would be hard for him to do that, and she won't leave the kids and her business to move there...so what's the down-side? Besides, I ALWAYS have the option of shutting down their communications (I'd desisted from doing this on Steve's request that we give her some time before we made a move like that).
And that shut-down of communications is pretty effective. Basically they'd be left with sending letters to each other through third parties only. No calls, no visits, and he'd be in the "cooler" for a few days...<p>So; is there a down-side? (Besides Steve hammering me), and besides the rest of the good folks here telling me I'm nuts!?!? (Yes, Faith, I mean you, for one!) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space, I had a minute to read your post; but have to run for the time being. I'll respond to your questions via WORD; when I can think and type properly and explain what I mean. I know what I want to say; just need to find the words. SH is great isn't he! More later, CSue</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Look forward to it! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>I guess I'll wait for more feedback before starting "Affairs that don't end...the sequel"
In the meantime</strong><p>Well I am glad you didn't start another thread, at least not yet, I had a lot of reading to catch up on here. You are a busy poster, Mr Cadet!!

<strong>OK, this is what I'm thinkin': My WW finally accepts to do counseling with Steve. And it turns out she likes him, and she's been working with him, gaining some trust, and Steve, of course, is taking it easy on her, not letting himself push her too hard too fast, so it's working out. In the meantime, Steve basically has me in a holding pattern, kinda' like letting the W play catch-up. So far so good. (Except tham It's driving me crazy, but that's part of the BS's job, isn't it? so we're cool.) She's had 3-4 session with him, and things seem to be moving in the right direction. Anyway; he's laying it on pretty slowly, letting her work things thru, learn, etc. and he has her do these "assignments" </strong><p>Ok, you have done your studying and now in the learning and application stage. Steve is showing you some basic steps you need to recognize and apply. SMALL STEPS of progress here. U admit he is taking it slow with her and you want to RUSH through it. Won't work Cadet, U need to pace yourself with Steve and your W. <p>
<strong>So I ask myself; well, IF she's being honest about what she said, there should be some other changes, right? I mean something! Talk about how the A started, how it ended, changing her tune in terms of wanting to talk about it, asking me what I feel/felt, SOMETHING! But nothing at all.</strong><p>This talking about the A thing is something the BS is always ready for but not the WS. This one takes time. U know this but hard to do. <p><strong>So I say to myself; calm down, this is a slow process, give her time, etc. I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt,</strong><p>Well the calming down part is good but giving her the benefit of the doubt may at this time cause more harm to your love bank than any good for her. <p><strong>Then we have another session with Steve, and we're supposed to start discussing our EN and LB questionnaires after this session, after she's completed her "assignments". By the end of the call steve says "change in plans; we can't go on with the EN/LB thing yet because she hasn't finished the assignments, and she's still got a serious problem with the "privacy" issue. She feels she'll lose her individuality, etc. and she feels that there are things that she has which I am not entitled to know or ask about, etc. and that she's just not there yet in terms of that.<p>So I'm freaking out! I'm saying "Steve; what do you mean? that "privacy" thing is a very transparent attempt at keeping the A secret, and to keep it going. Why would you let her get away with that?" </strong><p>Clear mind, calm heart thingy!!! Come on Cadet, this is babble and Steve knows it. But look at how he is handling it vs you. Your heart is in it more than his because this is at your doorstep but see how Steve is reacting and pattern yourself that way. It will be better in the long run. Even if you should go to plan B, this will help. <p><strong>..... I am just not OK with that. She is obviously just saying what Steve has asked her to say, but she does not really mean it. So what is the purpose of that? Without comprehension of what it means, without acknowledgement of what it means, and without internalizing and accepting the premise behind the words, what is the purpose of just saying them?</strong><p>More WS babble...... they don't give up that form of communication over night. So you let them babble a bit. Put ear plugs on your ears and cover your heart. <p>[ab]So what am I gettimng at? Well, that I understand that Steve needs to build rapport with my WW before he makes any more serious moves, OK, I can understand that. That it's a slow process, OK, that it IS progress to have her say she takes responsibility and is sorry, OK, I agree.<p>BUT; What is the purpose of having her say that to me if she doesn't really mean it? If she doesn't intend to take some concrete ACTION to back up her words? Maybe to gauge my reaction and see if it's "safe" to start talking? OK, that I can live with. But there'll have to be more, and soon, for that to keep me sane and under control. I've been Plan Aing for 5 months, 9 months since DDay, 1 year and 7 months since the A started (that I know of)...this just cannot go on much longer!<p>And besides, if she has not come around enough in these 9 months since dday to tell the truth, admit the A, talk about it, end it, build trust, and just keeps lying, to me AND to Steve? what's the point?[/qb]<p>Patience Cadet. Pray for patience. Most of us don't have that quality. Take a look at where you were and where U are now. The pain from d/d was intense. You thought you would never make it to 1 week or 1 month. See what you have gone through and really see how you are now. You have moved forward. You are willing to make changes. You and your W are seeking help. You just are healing and learning at totally different paces. <p>
<strong>She's in a nice place, believe me! I'm being the best husband I've ever been, I'm not asking for anything in return, I'm not snooping and confronting (as far as she's concerned, she's home-free!), and she has the adoring convict OM, eternally grateful and vociferous in his admiration and thanks for all she does for him, I mean, this is just great! FOR HER!<p>So when is it time for me? When is it time to move this thing forward?</strong><p>It may look like she is having her cake and eat it to. But soon your day will come. Her world of the A and its fantasy will tumble. Look at Faith. She did not stop living. She moved forward and eventually her xh's world crumbled. Who was left standing? Not the XH. Not the OW. Nope. Faith, she is the one who is shining like a beautiful and valuable star. Why? Because she is. Her respect and value outshines any other person that her H knows. He may be sad that he is not good enough for her but maybe he would like to be. That is his choice to try. Then it would be her choice to allow him to try. <p><strong>Plan B is looking more attractive every day. I'm ready, (been ready), and as time goes on with no "real" progress in Plan A, I lose faith that it'll ever work, or that she'll ever get it on her own. I mean, there's no incentive. And she is SO very far away from understanding, much less accepting, any of the Basic Concepts, and even much less adopting them, I have no illusions that she EVER will, certainly not anytime soon.<p>................<p>So; is there a down-side? (Besides Steve hammering me), and besides the rest of the good folks here telling me I'm nuts!?!? (Yes, Faith, I mean you, for one!) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><p>
Plan B needs to be implemented for the right reasons. The following is from Dr Harley:<p>"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. "<p>So Cadet, I hope this helps. You have done the reading and learning. Now it is time to implement. How and when is where Steve can help guide you. Your W has progressed farther than others here. So don't despair. It is just a long and hard road. The point is that you have the tools to survive. Your W is still learning about them. <p>JMHO,

Space, <p>You have been an inspiration for so many of us who have followed you on your journey. Being new to MB Principles I have admired how you have turned the principles into actions/non actions. You are a poster child of the reality that if A isn&#8217;t properly processed and healed; it will only come back to haunt. I don&#8217;t know if this helps you; but with your openness on this forum you will probably give others the motivation to &#8220;do it right&#8221; the 1st time around, because as we know NO ONE wants to go through this kind of pain again.<p>You also remind me that Plan A is all about me. That no matter what, by following MB Principles I will have given my M the very best chance that I could, so if things with this M don&#8217;t work out I&#8217;ll still be a better person having gone through this process with what I&#8217;ve learned. For me there will be no looking back saying to myself &#8220;I should have&#8221; blah, blah, blah.<p>Ah; the project manager mentality!! That does say a lot about your personality, because it&#8217;s tough to &#8220;turn off&#8221; the project manager. I&#8217;ll have some more to say about this later in the post.<p>What is interesting about this forum&#8217;s culture is that we&#8217;re blessedly anonymous if we choose to be; and we have the insight to help others because we know how it feels to go through this ordeal. We also have the ability to detach from other&#8217;s situations so we can operate with more objectivity and hopefully give clarity to the owner of the thread. Plus we have a common goal; each of us wants to save our M. Therefore we team-up with each other to assist in achieving this!<p>(Well, you are correct on both counts; it WAS profound, and the roller coaster has become a hurricane-strength howler!
Witness my new "tag-line": "Plan for the worst, Hope for the best, and hang on to your hats!")<p>Great Philosophy!!<p>(My thought is that it's possible that since her openness at the luncheon; you finally have a little space to address some of the feelings YOU have that may have been surpressed prior to the luncheon.)<p>(I'll need you to explain this to me; I don't quite get your drift...it sounds very intriguing and interesting to explore. Tell me more... )<p>Ok here goes! Speaking for myself in this case &#8230;When H told me about the A I kicked into &#8220;Survival&#8221;. Meaning that all of me, consciously, unconsciously went into &#8220;crisis management. I was completely blindsided; Infidelity wasn&#8217;t on my radar screen.<p>Similar to the way the physical body reacts to a life-threatening crisis by sending adrenaline throughout the system; diverting blood flow from non-essential extremities in order to support vital organs etc&#8230;I believe this type of mental/emotional/psychological crisis brings about a similar reaction to our psyche. You know the saying that we only use a fraction of our brain; the rest lies dormant? I think this type of crisis calls into action parts or ourselves that normally lie dormant, and other parts of us, portions of our feelings get submarined into our subconscious until we &#8220;determine&#8221; it&#8217;s safe to resurface. I think this is a form of &#8220;psychological shock&#8221;. Which I believe is God&#8217;s way of helping us deal with nothing more than we are capable of at the moment.<p>An example of this is that I had a hard time functioning normally in the weeks following d-day. I wasn&#8217;t safely able to drive my car. I found that the part of me that &#8220;checks out&#8221; so therefore on auto pilot when driving to & from everyday destinations &#8211; kids to school and back home again, was seriously disrupted. Mental auto pilot didn&#8217;t work so well and I was a hazard on the road according to my fellow drivers!! I wasn&#8217;t aware of my lack of ability until they REMINDED ME. There are many other examples of this sort; I was simply &#8220;checked out&#8221; in many ways.<p>Am I ever going to make a point you ask? My point is that with the discussion you had with WW that you reported on page 18 you might be starting to come out of &#8220;crisis mode&#8221;, which makes you free to surface buried emotions that have been forced under for the past 9 months (I believe you said) you have been dealing with this A. That would explain the more extreme highs & lows of the roller coaster ride, buried emotions that are now seeing the light of day! Very healthy IMHO. I have more to say; will be back later!! CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Orchid:

<strong>
Ok, you have done your studying and now in the learning and application stage. Steve is showing you some basic steps you need to recognize and apply. SMALL STEPS of progress here. U admit he is taking it slow with her and you want to RUSH through it. Won't work Cadet, U need to pace yourself with Steve and your W. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, mother. ;-)
You are absolutely right. I'm just having a hard time adjusting to the fact that after her "responsibility and sorry to have hurt you" talk, she's right back to where we were. I felt like that was the "turning point" and things should start to be moving more smoothly forward since then. My mis-conception, my wishful thinking got me out of the "groove" I was in, and now that I have to re-lower my expectations again, it's hard to do it.<p><strong>So I ask myself; well, IF she's being honest about what she said, there should be some other changes, right? I mean something! Talk about how the A started, how it ended, changing her tune in terms of wanting to talk about it, asking me what I feel/felt, SOMETHING! But nothing at all.</strong><p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
This talking about the A thing is something the BS is always ready for but not the WS. This one takes time. U know this but hard to do. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Agreed; same as before. But is it totally unrealistic to expect that some of what she said is actually true, and that having realized that there should be other changes coming? Maybe not with talking about the A, but in other ways?<p><strong>So I say to myself; calm down, this is a slow process, give her time, etc. I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt,</strong><p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Well the calming down part is good but giving her the benefit of the doubt may at this time cause more harm to your love bank than any good for her. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I meant the benefit of the doubt in the sense that even though I doubt she will ever really "get it", much less be willing to change her lifestyle to the "new way", I would give her the benefit of the doubt in that. I mean it is POSSIBLE that one day she will get it and be willing to change; however unlikely that may seem right now. (Which, by the way, is one of the main reasons I believe that Plan B will be a necessary step in my process at some point. I doubt she will "wake up" without a very severe wake-up call; and I can't imagine what that could be aside from Plan B.) <p><strong>...So I'm freaking out! I'm saying "Steve; what do you mean? that "privacy" thing is a very transparent attempt at keeping the A secret, and to keep it going. Why would you let her get away with that?" </strong><p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Clear mind, calm heart thingy!!! Come on Cadet, this is babble and Steve knows it. But look at how he is handling it vs you. Your heart is in it more than his because this is at your doorstep but see how Steve is reacting and pattern yourself that way. It will be better in the long run. Even if you should go to plan B, this will help. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>You are right yet again. Boy I wish my W had friends like you!<p><strong>..... I am just not OK with that. She is obviously just saying what Steve has asked her to say, but she does not really mean it. So what is the purpose of that? Without comprehension of what it means, without acknowledgement of what it means, and without internalizing and accepting the premise behind the words, what is the purpose of just saying them?</strong><p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
More WS babble...... they don't give up that form of communication over night. So you let them babble a bit. Put ear plugs on your ears and cover your heart. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>A bit...OK, I can handle that. What's a bit, though? Couple more sessions?<p><strong>...And besides, if she has not come around enough in these 9 months since dday to tell the truth, admit the A, talk about it, end it, build trust, and just keeps lying, to me AND to Steve? what's the point?</strong><p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Patience Cadet. Pray for patience. Most of us don't have that quality. Take a look at where you were and where U are now. The pain from d/d was intense. You thought you would never make it to 1 week or 1 month. See what you have gone through and really see how you are now. You have moved forward. You are willing to make changes. You and your W are seeking help. You just are healing and learning at totally different paces. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Right again. I'm just running out of patience...the up and down emotions and feelings of frustration and powerlessness are hard to bear. I'm a Martian, remember? "If the solution is right in front of you, you Frigging just DO IT!" Sorry, getting carried away there...be nice, space, be nice.<p><strong>She's in a nice place, believe me! I'm being the best husband I've ever been, I'm not asking for anything in return, I'm not snooping and confronting (as far as she's concerned, she's home-free!), and she has the adoring convict OM, eternally grateful and vociferous in his admiration and thanks for all she does for him, I mean, this is just great! FOR HER!<p>So when is it time for me? When is it time to move this thing forward?</strong><p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
It may look like she is having her cake and eat it to. But soon your day will come. Her world of the A and its fantasy will tumble... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know, I know....it just feels like FOREVER! No wonder they say this is one of the hardest things we'll ever do...it is.<p><strong>Plan B is looking more attractive every day. I'm ready, (been ready), and as time goes on with no "real" progress in Plan A, I lose faith that it'll ever work, or that she'll ever get it on her own. I mean, there's no incentive. And she is SO very far away from understanding, much less accepting, any of the Basic Concepts, and even much less adopting them, I have no illusions that she EVER will, certainly not anytime soon.<p>So; is there a down-side? (Besides Steve hammering me), and besides the rest of the good folks here telling me I'm nuts!?!? (Yes, Faith, I mean you, for one!) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Plan B needs to be implemented for the right reasons. The following is from Dr Harley:<p>"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. " </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think I'm there. Completely. Were it not for giving Steve a chance, a crack at it, I'd BE there already. But I WILL give Steve a chance. Not for very much longer, though.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
So Cadet, I hope this helps. You have done the reading and learning. Now it is time to implement. How and when is where Steve can help guide you. Your W has progressed farther than others here. So don't despair. It is just a long and hard road. The point is that you have the tools to survive. Your W is still learning about them.
JMHO, </strong><hr></blockquote><p>It does help Orchid; you are wonderful and a calming voice amid the mess that is my thoughts. Thanks, thanks, many thanks! ;-)<p>[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Ah-hah! ... my ears were burning for a reason! I see you 2 talking about me! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>haha....<p>I'm glad that I was mentioned in the same paragraph with Steve Harley! not sure if it was good or not though! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks for the kind words Orchid. I would most certainly have to agree. That is one of the hardest aspects for us BS's to believe. We feel like life is wonderful for the WS. I just knew it was all fun and games for XH, and they would live happily ever after. He had VERY little responsibility, and was spending lots of $$ on fun and stuff. I was keeping up OUR house, OUR bills, covering for him in relationships with OUR friends, plus meeting whatever other needs he would let me. He got away with a lot of stuff during Plan A. But it was short-term, and he admits now - he was selfish, and all the fun and games was not worth it - it didn't get him where he thought he wanted to go.<p>It MAY be great for them for a short time, but there's some negative stuff going on in FantasyLand they wouldn't dare admit to us... or even to themselves. Plus we know that FantasyLand won't last forever.<p>There's lots of calories in that cake they're eating. There's guilt, pressure to keep 2 lives going, perpetual lies, loss of friendships, loss of jobs, over-spending money, loss of self-respect, confusion, etc etc.<p>So, even though we hate it, let her have her cake and eat it too for a little while. She'll look in the mirror one day and realize what all that sugar, fat and calories is doing to her!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>In the meantime, you're lean, mean, and workin your buns off. You'll come out a winner, k?<p>sorry to ramble... but you know me by now. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm so glad you are both talking with Steve. I know you see that as a blessing. Trust his lead... he won't steer you wrong, and you won't regret it.<p>[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>