<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space, <p>You have been an inspiration for so many of us who have followed you on your journey. Being new to MB Principles I have admired how you have turned the principles into actions/non actions. You are a poster child of the reality that if A isn&#8217;t properly processed and healed; it will only come back to haunt. I don&#8217;t know if this helps you; but with your openness on this forum you will probably give others the motivation to &#8220;do it right&#8221; the 1st time around, because as we know NO ONE wants to go through this kind of pain again.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You made the tears come streaming down with this statement, CSue. Tears of profound sadness for not having realized the pain that the first A would bring us; brought us all these years, and of frustration and despair that my W does not see it...does not even imagine it yet.
And yet also of some happiness, because although I do not wish to be a poster child of anything, much less of such a tragic thing as un un-processed affair, It gives me some comfirt to think that others may benefit from my painful experience. You are too kind.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What is interesting about this forum&#8217;s culture is that we&#8217;re blessedly anonymous if we choose to be; and we have the insight to help others because we know how it feels to go through this ordeal. We also have the ability to detach from other&#8217;s situations so we can operate with more objectivity and hopefully give clarity to the owner of the thread. Plus we have a common goal; each of us wants to save our M. Therefore we team-up with each other to assist in achieving this!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Very true; and a wonderful thing it has been for me! On both the giving and the receiving end.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My thought is that it's possible that since her openness at the luncheon; you finally have a little space to address some of the feelings YOU have that may have been surpressed prior to the luncheon. <p>SC [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I'll need you to explain this to me; I don't quite get your drift...it sounds very intriguing and interesting to explore. Tell me more... )<p>Am I ever going to make a point you ask? My point is that with the discussion you had with WW that you reported on page 18 you might be starting to come out of &#8220;crisis mode&#8221;, which makes you free to surface buried emotions that have been forced under for the past 9 months (I believe you said) you have been dealing with this A. That would explain the more extreme highs & lows of the roller coaster ride, buried emotions that are now seeing the light of day! Very healthy IMHO. I have more to say; will be back later!! CSue</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Very interesting. And probably true. (Are you involved in medicine, therapy, something like that?)
I think what I felt was that now we could begin to move forward again; perhaps she was "getting it" and we could, indeed, begin to talk about some of MY feelings, pain, etc. So I guess in that sense you're absolutely right. I felt it was somehow now "my turn", even if only for a little bit.
Is that what you mean?

Space, Part 2 of CSue Post!!<p>I said -
You have been doing such an incredible Plan A; and with the SH counseling you are finally taking your relationship with her in the direction you want to go.
Space, I&#8217;m back; You said &#8211; <p>(I don't know about "Incredible Plan A", I've been getting better and better at it, but I have my down days where I send things back to square one, and my good days, when she seems to stand up and ask herself if this is real...all in all a decent Plan A, I guess, since she IS showing signs of progress. But it's painfully slow, and I'm not one to deal with that pace easily; that's been my worst enemy. The "baby-steps" thing has been a life-saver for me...without that thought process, I'd have put us all out of our misery long ago!)<p>Because she is showing signs of progress, your ability to Plan A is paying off. The agonizingly slow progress is horrible & I don&#8217;t deal with that too well either. This is where having SH on board makes the situation bearable at least.<p>
My question of -
Do you suppose that some of your fears can finally feel safe enough to come to the surface? <p>(This is another one you're going to have to elaborate on for me...not quite sure what you mean, but very intriguing nonetheless.)<p>Because your WW is taking responsibility and is sorry for the A and the pain it has caused you; I think that all of the unprocessed feelings that must have been building over the last 9 months are working their way to the surface for you to deal with.<p>I said -
I think that with the tremendous potential your R with WS has now since the luncheon that you need to give yourself a little space to get comfortable with the possibilities of success. <p>(I think you're right with this; not quite sure how to deal with it. One gets so used to the presence of the brick wall we're trying to tear down, and when pieces of it start to fall, we're not sure what to do with it!)<p>Yes, it&#8217;s kind of like unneeded old emotional defenses that at one time were useful and you have now outgrown their usefulness. They are hard to put aside because they protected you at one time; however now they can hold you back. It&#8217;s time to let them go and find something new that works better. Also I think there&#8217;s a little healing that needs to be done here as well. Once healed you can then move on.<p>(It's hard to know what the next step may be, there's fear of "blowing it" by doing something different or changing things we've finally become good at doing. It's scary...uncharted waters!)<p>That&#8217;s why you don&#8217;t make a move that SH hasn&#8217;t given his blessing to. You stay within the ground rules of his coaching to you. No uncharted waters without your coach!

(And yet; what I feel the most is perhaps that now that SOME progress is showing, the pace should pick up, things should start falling into place, the next steps should be easier, but it seems that is not the case, and it's frustrating and very annoying.)<p>Ah, but I completely disagree here. Now that some progress is showing and she is starting to feel the full impact of what she has done and I think it is staggering. My H took his snail pace down to nothing as he was trying to cope with the magnitude what he has caused. I think the next steps are very hard and I agree with your frustration and annoyance. I have voiced this to SH and he says to me over, & over, & over&#8230;&#8221;You can&#8217;t be H&#8217;s coach right now. Leave it to me because if you do coach H you will only slow us down&#8221;. Eventually he says H & I will be each other&#8217;s coaches; but not now.<p>(Steve is keeping me calm, and holding me on a tight leash, lest I lose our hard-earned progress!)<p>Your chance to practice self control!! Yipee!!<p>(Time will tell; but frankly, I'm pretty close to doing something dramatic!)<p>Don&#8217;t you dare! You&#8217;ve come too far. Don&#8217;t give in to this temptation. Just think of all the money you&#8217;ve paid to SH that you don&#8217;t want to be for naught!! Think of how much more money you&#8217;ll spend with SH undoing whatever dramatic action you take! LOL!!<p>I said,
Hope you take this in the way I intend and are not offended. You're shaping up to be one of the success stories around here. Best wishes...CSue <p>(I have no idea what you could possibly mean by this. Your post was wonderful, has some very intriguing thoughts behind it, and I am not one to offend easily anyway!)<p>My point here is that we Mbrs can sometime assume we know what each other is thinking and feeling; so I didn&#8217;t want to appear presumptuous. Especially since I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;ve ever posted to you before. I have followed your thread continuously; but was a little intimidated by the longevity of it; plus we&#8217;re not in similar situations etc&#8230;However these thoughts have been brewing in my head for quite sometime and I felt I had an opening to share them with you as you were pondering whether or not you were justified in having these new feelings! <p>(I appreciate your taking the time to read all this, especially my often-rambling, psychotic posts, and I look forward to hearing your elaboration on those two very interesting thoughts, so we can discuss them further.)<p>You&#8217;re actually quite humorous and I enjoy laughing whenever I can as I wade through the mud of my situation!<p>
(As to "shaping up to be one of the success stories around here", G_d-willing, and with everyone's support, and if my M and the process survives my numerous failings, I pray that one day this may indeed be the case.)<p>Space, have you read on the web site about Giver/Taker parts of our personality? I&#8217;ve read it and became so fascinated I purchased the Give/Take Book from the Harley bookstore. I think you would benefit from becoming an expert with principles of this book; and of course it ties in with the other Harleyisms. It helped me understand why I feel the way I do, and why I&#8217;m so conflicted at times as though I am waging an internal battle within myself. Now that I understand Give/Take that&#8217;s exactly what is happening with me. Way past time for me to understand and hold myself accountable for applying what I&#8217;ve learned. It&#8217;s something that looks like &#8220;core issue&#8221; stuff with me that helped make the conditions right for my H to have A. Besides I can keep my focus on my (not coaching H) HINT,HINT, HINT!<p>End of Part 2 of CSue Post!!

Originally posted by CSue:<p>Space,
You have been an inspiration for so many of us who have followed you on your journey. Being new to MB Principles I have admired how you have turned the principles into actions/non actions. You are a poster child of the reality that if A isn&#8217;t properly processed and healed; it will only come back to haunt. I don&#8217;t know if this helps you; but with your openness on this forum you will probably give others the motivation to &#8220;do it right&#8221; the 1st time around, because as we know NO ONE wants to go through this kind of pain again.<p>(You made the tears come streaming down with this statement, CSue. Tears of profound sadness for not having realized the pain that the first A would bring us; brought us all these years, and of frustration and despair that my W does not see it...does not even imagine it yet.And yet also of some happiness, because although I do not wish to be a poster child of anything, much less of such a tragic thing as un un-processed affair, It gives me some comfirt to think that others may benefit from my painful experience. You are too kind.)<p>Space,
I hope you know I didn&#8217;t mean it was all your fault that the first A wasn&#8217;t processed properly. I am sorry for your pain with this. The savings grace of all of this is knowing that others will have the opportunity to learn from all of our mistakes as well as our successes!<p>I said<p>What is interesting about this forum&#8217;s culture is that we&#8217;re blessedly anonymous if we choose to be; and we have the insight to help others because we know how it feels to go through this ordeal. We also have the ability to detach from other&#8217;s situations so we can operate with more objectivity and hopefully give clarity to the owner of the thread. Plus we have a common goal; each of us wants to save our M. Therefore we team-up with each other to assist in achieving this!<p>You said:<p>(Very true; and a wonderful thing it has been for me! On both the giving and the receiving end.
quote [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>(My thought is that it's possible that since her openness at the luncheon; you finally have a little space to address some of the feelings YOU have that may have been surpressed prior to the luncheon.) <p>(SC I'll need you to explain this to me; I don't quite get your drift...it sounds very intriguing and interesting to explore. Tell me more... )
Am I ever going to make a point you ask? My point is that with the discussion you had with WW that you reported on page 18 you might be starting to come out of &#8220;crisis mode&#8221;, which makes you free to surface buried emotions that have been forced under for the past 9 months (I believe you said) you have been dealing with this A. That would explain the more extreme highs & lows of the roller coaster ride, buried emotions that are now seeing the light of day! Very healthy IMHO. I have more to say; will be back later!! CSue)<p>(Very interesting. And probably true. (Are you involved in medicine, therapy, something like that?)I think what I felt was that now we could begin to move forward again; perhaps she was "getting it" and we could, indeed, begin to talk about some of MY feelings, pain, etc. So I guess in that sense you're absolutely right. I felt it was somehow now "my turn", even if only for a little bit.Is that what you mean?)<p>Space -<p>Involved with therapy went to the &#8220;School of Hard Knocks&#8221;! I have a habit of analyzing EVERYTHING. Plus H, and my sister are in the medical field. I have tried my whole life to figure out why at times am I my own worst enemy. <p>It was perfectly normal for you to feel that maybe it could be your turn now to discuss your feelings pain etc. Question for you. Has SH started your WW on her &#8220;Recovery Plan&#8221; to present to you? That is when your feelings and pain will begin to be addressed by her. VERY healing for me to have WH present this to me. He still has step #3 to do. On hold for the time being however.<p>I think you're doing brilliantly! Just work on you and leave you WW to SH. It was a relief in a sense when I finally left H's part of the A in SH's hands. Any concerns etc. about H, I take up with SH at the following appointment. That allows SH to coach not me. The pressure off of H with me choosing not to coach him has had the unexpected benefit of H actually opening up to me, I guess because he doesn't feel under potential attack. <p>SH is hold H accountable for his actions. I can tell by the way he acts after a session with SH. <p>Bless you Space!! CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>Ah-hah! ... my ears were burning for a reason! I see you 2 talking about me! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>haha....</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Uh, Oh...The force is strong with Faith...and her radar's very sensitive! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Thanks for the kind words Orchid. I would most certainly have to agree. That is one of the hardest aspects for us BS's to believe. We feel like life is wonderful for the WS. I just knew it was all fun and games for XH, and they would live happily ever after. He had VERY little responsibility, and was spending lots of $$ on fun and stuff. I was keeping up OUR house, OUR bills, covering for him in relationships with OUR friends, plus meeting whatever other needs he would let me. He got away with a lot of stuff during Plan A. But it was short-term, and he admits now - he was selfish, and all the fun and games was not worth it - it didn't get him where he thought he wanted to go.<p>It MAY be great for them for a short time, but there's some negative stuff going on in FantasyLand they wouldn't dare admit to us... or even to themselves. Plus we know that FantasyLand won't last forever.<p>There's lots of calories in that cake they're eating. There's guilt, pressure to keep 2 lives going, perpetual lies, loss of friendships, loss of jobs, over-spending money, loss of self-respect, confusion, etc etc.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think you're right, Faith. Thing is it BURNS to think about it. It DOES feel to us like they are just having a blast, while we're bleeding, when it probably is not so. Thanks.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So, even though we hate it, let her have her cake and eat it too for a little while. She'll look in the mirror one day and realize what all that sugar, fat and calories is doing to her!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm there. Hard to tough it out; but I'll find the will and the strength somewhere....always do! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I'm so glad you are both talking with Steve. I know you see that as a blessing. Trust his lead... he won't steer you wrong, and you won't regret it. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know. Deep inside, I know.
Thx! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

CSue,
I'm going to work on responding to your posts. Very though-provoking, and very insighful.<p>I do want to say one thing; I don't know you, and you don't know me, and yet from the first time you posted yesterday, it somehow felt like we connected well.<p>I know some here will say "watch out, don't say stuff like that" and I know that's right. But I did want to express it. And it only means what I said.

Space, <p>This could be partly because I have been a lurker on your post for so long. I haven&#8217;t been in a place where I felt I could contribute much; then I started seeing some things in your post that sounded like it could have been coming from me. <p>Which is an indicator to me that I too have something to learn although I can&#8217;t quite define it at this point. Life is interesting&#8230;someone once said &#8220;First you take the test&#8230;then you learn the lesson.&#8221; Well I&#8217;m still testing!!<p>(I know some here will say "watch out, don't say stuff like that" and I know that's right. But I did want to express it. And it only means what I said.)<p>I understand what you mean by saying this. In reality we&#8217;re all teachers and students of each other. The hard part can be when to teach and when to learn (ie &#8211; listen!!)<p>There are a couple of other threads from other posters that I am processing in my head for later! It's kind of funny, being a lurker.<p>Speaking of teaching&#8230;How do you post the way you do vs the way I do? I can't figure that out and it reads so much easier the way the learned ones like you do??<p>More later Csue!

This quote, counter-quote thing gets complicated, but I'll give it a try.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>
Because she is showing signs of progress, your ability to Plan A is paying off. The agonizingly slow progress is horrible & I don&#8217;t deal with that too well either. This is where having SH on board makes the situation bearable at least.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Indeed. I've felt like he's stuggling so much with my W, that he's "ignoring" me, and that's OK; after all, I know where I am and if I get beyond the emotions, I know exactly what I have to do without his telling me. Perhaps that is why I post so much and seek validation from the board.
(It is true; we'll start the call and he'll say, OK 10 minutes with you, then 10 with W, then we'll all talk. Right; it turns into 5 minutes with me, 55 minutes with my W, and I get to come back and say "ok, thanks, bye") ! ;-)

<strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
CS:
Do you suppose that some of your fears can finally feel safe enough to come to the surface? <p>SC: (Geez, even this doesn't work; CS, SC...very confusing. I hope others can keep track)
(This is another one you're going to have to elaborate on for me...not quite sure what you mean, but very intriguing nonetheless.)<p>CS: Because your WW is taking responsibility and is sorry for the A and the pain it has caused you; I think that all of the unprocessed feelings that must have been building over the last 9 months are working their way to the surface for you to deal with.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I guess you're right in this. There are many unanswered questions, many things I've felt but have been unable to express, and many "connections" I would like to still make with my W and the situation, but they've been held back in favor of a good Plan A.<p>Perhaps this is what I'm feeling, and what gave me the sudden rush of joy, and then the let-down when I saw that it wasn't quite "real" yet. That there's still work to be done before it can all be addressed. Very good point.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
CS: I think that with the tremendous potential your R with WS has now since the luncheon that you need to give yourself a little space to get comfortable with the possibilities of success. <p>SC: (I think you're right with this; not quite sure how to deal with it. One gets so used to the presence of the brick wall we're trying to tear down, and when pieces of it start to fall, we're not sure what to do with it!)<p>CS: Yes, it&#8217;s kind of like unneeded old emotional defenses that at one time were useful and you have now outgrown their usefulness. They are hard to put aside because they protected you at one time; however now they can hold you back. It&#8217;s time to let them go and find something new that works better. Also I think there&#8217;s a little healing that needs to be done here as well. Once healed you can then move on.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Any in particular you think might be expected, or normal? I'm not sure which might be OK to discard/change, and which might not. Have to think about this....<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
SC: (It's hard to know what the next step may be, there's fear of "blowing it" by doing something different or changing things we've finally become good at doing. It's scary...uncharted waters!)<p>CS: That&#8217;s why you don&#8217;t make a move that SH hasn&#8217;t given his blessing to. You stay within the ground rules of his coaching to you. No uncharted waters without your coach!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think you're very right here. I will have to process some of these and go through them with Steve. I'm very confused right now; the path isn't as clear as it seemed before.

<strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
SC: (And yet; what I feel the most is perhaps that now that SOME progress is showing, the pace should pick up, things should start falling into place, the next steps should be easier, but it seems that is not the case, and it's frustrating and very annoying.)<p>CS: Ah, but I completely disagree here. Now that some progress is showing and she is starting to feel the full impact of what she has done and I think it is staggering. My H took his snail pace down to nothing as he was trying to cope with the magnitude what he has caused. I think the next steps are very hard and I agree with your frustration and annoyance. I have voiced this to SH and he says to me over, & over, & over&#8230;&#8221;You can&#8217;t be H&#8217;s coach right now. Leave it to me because if you do coach H you will only slow us down&#8221;. Eventually he says H & I will be each other&#8217;s coaches; but not now.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Seems perfectly logical, and a natural progression of things. Perhaps it's not as clear to me because my W has NOT yet realized "the magnitude of what (s)he has caused", but it seems we're clearly headed to that stage soon. So it'll probably come over the next few weeks that this process starts.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
SC: (Steve is keeping me calm, and holding me on a tight leash, lest I lose our hard-earned progress!)<p>Your chance to practice self control!! Yipee!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, I prefer drugs! Just kidding! ;-)<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
(Time will tell; but frankly, I'm pretty close to doing something dramatic!)<p>Don&#8217;t you dare! You&#8217;ve come too far. Don&#8217;t give in to this temptation. Just think of all the money you&#8217;ve paid to SH that you don&#8217;t want to be for naught!! Think of how much more money you&#8217;ll spend with SH undoing whatever dramatic action you take! LOL!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know, I know. I'm not going to do that. Feel like doing it! That's for sure.
But I put stuff like this in there so I can "see" Faith1 roll her eyes, and "hear" Orchid sighing and saying, "Geez; Cadet is getting out of control again, better get back there before he blows it", but mainly, to see if anyone's really paying attention!
(I know I'm going to get flamed for that! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] )<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
CS: Hope you take this in the way I intend and are not offended. You're shaping up to be one of the success stories around here. Best wishes...CSue <p>SC: (I have no idea what you could possibly mean by this. Your post was wonderful, has some very intriguing thoughts behind it, and I am not one to offend easily anyway!)<p>CS: My point here is that we Mbrs can sometime assume we know what each other is thinking and feeling; so I didn&#8217;t want to appear presumptuous. Especially since I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;ve ever posted to you before. I have followed your thread continuously; but was a little intimidated by the longevity of it; plus we&#8217;re not in similar situations etc&#8230;However these thoughts have been brewing in my head for quite sometime and I felt I had an opening to share them with you as you were pondering whether or not you were justified in having these new feelings! </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Some might; but I think we're generally pretty good about that. I value the insight, the challenge of digesting a new idea, the exercise of comparing notes and feelings, and especially the knowledge gained from others' perspectives and experiences. This is a very stimulating intellectual exchange, and it makes me think, ponder, explore uncharted areas...many of my theories and the "crazy" strategies that I float around come from this. Very good stuff! Fulfilling, I can't find the right word right now...but I love it!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
SC: (I appreciate your taking the time to read all this, especially my often-rambling, psychotic posts, and I look forward to hearing your elaboration on those two very interesting thoughts, so we can discuss them further.)<p>CS: You&#8217;re actually quite humorous and I enjoy laughing whenever I can as I wade through the mud of my situation!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you. I'm embarassed [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ....don't think of myself as a very humorous guy. CERTAINLY my W doesn't!...kinda' shy, actually.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
(As to "shaping up to be one of the success stories around here", G_d-willing, and with everyone's support, and if my M and the process survives my numerous failings, I pray that one day this may indeed be the case.)<p>Space, have you read on the web site about Giver/Taker parts of our personality? I&#8217;ve read it and became so fascinated I purchased the Give/Take Book from the Harley bookstore. I think you would benefit from becoming an expert with principles of this book; and of course it ties in with the other Harleyisms. It helped me understand why I feel the way I do, and why I&#8217;m so conflicted at times as though I am waging an internal battle within myself. Now that I understand Give/Take that&#8217;s exactly what is happening with me. Way past time for me to understand and hold myself accountable for applying what I&#8217;ve learned. It&#8217;s something that looks like &#8220;core issue&#8221; stuff with me that helped make the conditions right for my H to have A. Besides I can keep my focus on my (not coaching H) HINT,HINT, HINT!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I haven't read that one, actually. But you know what? I will. Because you're right; I DO have some problems with that. Mostly understanding it and finding the right balance. (Now that you mention it, this may be a good option for those of us who might appear to need to read about Codependency, but perhaps are not really codependent in the traditional sense. Same kind of thing, different degrees of intensity.) Perhaps that will help me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,
You have been an inspiration for so many of us who have followed you on your journey. Being new to MB Principles I have admired how you have turned the principles into actions/non actions. You are a poster child of the reality that if A isn&#8217;t properly processed and healed; it will only come back to haunt. I don&#8217;t know if this helps you; but with your openness on this forum you will probably give others the motivation to &#8220;do it right&#8221; the 1st time around, because as we know NO ONE wants to go through this kind of pain again.<p>SC: (You made the tears come streaming down with this statement, CSue. Tears of profound sadness for not having realized the pain that the first A would bring us; brought us all these years, and of frustration and despair that my W does not see it...does not even imagine it yet.And yet also of some happiness, because although I do not wish to be a poster child of anything, much less of such a tragic thing as un un-processed affair, It gives me some comfirt to think that others may benefit from my painful experience. You are too kind.)<p>CS: Space, I hope you know I didn&#8217;t mean it was all your fault that the first A wasn&#8217;t processed properly. I am sorry for your pain with this. The savings grace of all of this is knowing that others will have the opportunity to learn from all of our mistakes as well as our successes! </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not at all. (don't be so defensive...) I don't think it's my fault at all that we didn't process it; it's both our faults; maily for being ignorant and naive! And it was an awful situation; my W wanted to end it "her way", I forced it to end "my way", whatever...it was AWFUL!!!! Never should have let it happen. But I'm over it...no I'm not. We need to deal with the consequences of that first, and maybe after that, if we're still breathing, we can deal with the guilt ;-)<p> <strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
CS: Am I ever going to make a point you ask? My point is that with the discussion you had with WW that you reported on page 18 you might be starting to come out of &#8220;crisis mode&#8221;, which makes you free to surface buried emotions that have been forced under for the past 9 months (I believe you said) you have been dealing with this A. That would explain the more extreme highs & lows of the roller coaster ride, buried emotions that are now seeing the light of day! Very healthy IMHO. I have more to say; will be back later!! CSue)<p>SC: (Very interesting. And probably true. (Are you involved in medicine, therapy, something like that?)I think what I felt was that now we could begin to move forward again; perhaps she was "getting it" and we could, indeed, begin to talk about some of MY feelings, pain, etc. So I guess in that sense you're absolutely right. I felt it was somehow now "my turn", even if only for a little bit.Is that what you mean?)<p>CS: Space -Involved with therapy went to the &#8220;School of Hard Knocks&#8221;! I have a habit of analyzing EVERYTHING. Plus H, and my sister are in the medical field. I have tried my whole life to figure out why at times am I my own worst enemy. <p>It was perfectly normal for you to feel that maybe it could be your turn now to discuss your feelings pain etc. Question for you. Has SH started your WW on her &#8220;Recovery Plan&#8221; to present to you? That is when your feelings and pain will begin to be addressed by her. VERY healing for me to have WH present this to me. He still has step #3 to do. On hold for the time being however. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think that as we become educated, we ALL realize we're our own worst enemies. (You know, now that I said that, that is a very interesting way to look at where people are at in their intellectual development; I think that when we realize things like this, that we're our own worst enemy, or that we have power over ourselves and not others, ... anyway, that's another though-provoker I'll have to think about).<p> <strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think you're doing brilliantly! Just work on you and leave you WW to SH. It was a relief in a sense when I finally left H's part of the A in SH's hands. Any concerns etc. about H, I take up with SH at the following appointment. That allows SH to coach not me. The pressure off of H with me choosing not to coach him has had the unexpected benefit of H actually opening up to me, I guess because he doesn't feel under potential attack. <p>SH is hold H accountable for his actions. I can tell by the way he acts after a session with SH. <p>Bless you Space!! CSue </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm glad you think so, I think I'm doing OK, but ever the perfectionist, and ever the inquiring mind, I perhaps over-analyze things and am over-critical....I appreciate the vote of confidence!<p>This is a very interesting notion; to leave the W's A issues in SH's hands...don't know if I can give up that much control, but it's a good idea! See, he hasn't even suggested this to me yet, so I'm still trying to figure a lot of this out on my own.<p>And I think you're right; Steve will hold her accountable for her actions. I have absolute faith in him.<p>Thanks again, CSue. Very very good stuff! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

I need to find your thread and read it.<p>It's easy to post with quotes; on the top part of any post, there's a ( " " )symbol. When you want to reply to that post, you click on that and it'll pull up the post with all the html necessary to make it look like that. It's pretty easy to do simple stuff; something like this:<p>for bold you add a [b] before the part you want bolded and at the end,[/b]<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>for a quote, you add <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>and for a bolded quote you add [qb]<p>This isn't going to look quite right since the command is executed when I write it, but I think it'll be ok.<p>[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Space, thanks for showing me how to use the ""!! It might make it easier for me to keep the quote/counter quote straight. I'll respond to your post as soon as I can.<p>It may be late tomorrow before I can. I appreciate your feedback; helps me too. My first thread is on JFO called "First Time Posting" I think and the second one is on the recovery board and is called "Update".<p>Thanks, CSue

Space,<p>I had planned to get back with you sooner; but had a HORRIBLE weekend. Basically I did everything I told you not to do. How do you like the irony in that?<p>I'm going to take a break from MB for awhile and try to get a little more stable; I'm a mess. Later! CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,<p>I had planned to get back with you sooner; but had a HORRIBLE weekend. Basically I did everything I told you not to do. How do you like the irony in that?<p>I'm going to take a break from MB for awhile and try to get a little more stable; I'm a mess. Later! CSue</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry to hear that CS; remember you've got friends and support here. Take care of yourself, and come back soon!

I was re-reading what you posted earlier, Faith:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Thanks for the kind words Orchid. I would most certainly have to agree. That is one of the hardest aspects for us BS's to believe. We feel like life is wonderful for the WS. I just knew it was all fun and games for XH, and they would live happily ever after. He had VERY little responsibility, and was spending lots of $$ on fun and stuff. I was keeping up OUR house, OUR bills, covering for him in relationships with OUR friends, plus meeting whatever other needs he would let me. He got away with a lot of stuff during Plan A. But it was short-term, and he admits now - he was selfish, and all the fun and games was not worth it - it didn't get him where he thought he wanted to go.<p>It MAY be great for them for a short time, but there's some negative stuff going on in FantasyLand they wouldn't dare admit to us... or even to themselves. Plus we know that FantasyLand won't last forever.<p>There's lots of calories in that cake they're eating. There's guilt, pressure to keep 2 lives going, perpetual lies, loss of friendships, loss of jobs, over-spending money, loss of self-respect, confusion, etc etc.<p>So, even though we hate it, let her have her cake and eat it too for a little while. She'll look in the mirror one day and realize what all that sugar, fat and calories is doing to her!!! <p> <hr></blockquote><p>And I ran across this book, which appears to address some of that at least, so I thought I'd post the "reviews" it got at Amazon, and perhaps get feedback from some who have read it:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Affairs : A Guide to Working Through the Repercussions of Infidelity
by Emily M. Brown<p>Book Description
From a nationally renowned therapist, family mediator, and expert on extramarital affairs, this supportive guide offers couples clear advice on how to work through the emotional and practical fallout of infidelity. The author presents the five types of affairs that occur, and why. She then helps readers face the affair, let go of obsession, prevent violence, work on the marriage, work on themselves, get outside help when needed, rebuild their lives in the even the marriage ends, and talk with children. Affairs is a healing guide, giving readers the knowledge and information they need to deal with difficult issues, make peace with themselves and each other, and move on.<p>To be vulnerable to an event is not to invite it, March 23, 2002
Reviewer: A reader from Austin, TX USA
If marriage counselors were emergency room doctors, they would always be asking questions like, "We need to understand why you stepped in front of that car, and why the driver needed you to do it." If they were cardiologists, they would be asking, "We need to understand why you needed to occlude your arteries, and why your spouse wanted you to."
An article of faith, not a fact that anyone has discovered or theory that makes any logical sense, the notion that infidelity always reveals something about the marriage continues to impose on couples demands that no one in any other realm of health care would countenance.
That an affair has occurred obviously means that the marriage was vulnerable to an affair--that the pattern of marital interaction allowed for an affair to happen. That does not mean that the affair is a function of that pattern.
Ms. Brown's book is more sensible than many guides to dealing with infidelity, though it shares the dogma that affairs are always systemic.
And the "types of affairs" she mentions hardly encompass all the reasons affairs take place. Sometimes a spouse is mentally ill, for instance. Sometimes a spouse's early upbringing left him or her with serious ethical lacunae. Sometimes we just marry the wrong people, because we are young and naive or otherwise obtuse when marrying, and the person we marry chooses a dishonorable path. Sometimes we choose dishonorable ways of feeling better because of our own shortcomings. None of those are functions of the marriage.
If you try to fit your spouse's infidelity, or your own, into Ms. Brown's views, you may be taking on responsibility for managing someone else's mental illness or moral shortcomings, or you may be shifting your mental illness or ethical immaturity to your marriage, where they can never be fixed. <p>Nothing ever makes an individual trustworthy except his or her own good character. An affair need not show anything wrong with the marriage, but it ALWAYS shows unreliable character--a person who does not keep promises and engages in deceit is (by definition)unreliable. If you are the betrayer, you will never become a reliable partner without reforming the moral callousness that enabled you to use betrayal to make yourself feel better. If you are the betrayed, you make a serious mistake in believing that anything you can do will make your partner more reliable. Yes, you might be able to decrease the partner's unhappiness; but then you will have taken responsibility for keeping the partner happy enough that he or she won't do what they should never be willing to do anyway.

I've seen marriages destroyed by well-meaning therapists who convince partners that something is wrong with the marriage, when there isn't, really--when some individual therapy or moral education for the betrayer could have saved the marriage. I've seen therapists ratify the betrayed person's broken sense of self by telling them they had a role in bringing it on themselves, thus forever warping their understanding of themselves and of the moral demands of marriage. Ms. Brown invites more of the same. <p>All in the name of a dogma-both partners contribute-that makes no scientific or logical sense. <p>I have about decided that books by psychologists and social workers are the last sources you should consult when dealing with infidelity. None of them, that I've found, seem to reflect much understanding of ethics, of the psychology and sociology of social institutions, of agency and patience, or even of basic logic.<p>What an eye opener, December 3, 2001
Reviewer: willsmom from NC USA
I truly wish that someone had recommended this book before now. I am 4 months into a separation in which my husband left me for an affair partner. I turned into a woman possessed. I did things that truly were unhealthy for me in trying to understand what went wrong and obsessing over what was happening between the two of them. After reading this book, I had a wake up call. I truly felt as if someone had taken the book and hit me over the head with it. It put the affair into perspective and allowed me to start the healing process. It enabled me to understand that the affiar was not all my fault and began the discussion process with my spouse. I was able to "let go" of the obsession and was able to understand the person who got involved with my husband as well as my husband's perspective. A definite "must read" for anyone who is going through this!<p>A Destructive Affair, August 21, 2001
Reviewer: robnumber13 (see more about me) from Westlake CA USA
I read this book after I had come out of a long time affair with a woman who I fell in love with but who could not show me the same back in ways I wanted to be loved. Reading this book I realize how good at pointing out all the small things that you go through in life with having an affair. You might think they are fun, exciting at the beginning but they are so destructive to your well being, if you are starting to fancy someone and are married, buy this book and maybe you will see for yourself. The affair will destroy your life, especially if you are a decent person.<p>Thankfully I am healing now, but it destroyed my wife with what happened, buy the book save yourself countless hours of upset. The other person can and will turn on you with such evil if you don't do as they say believe me. This woman did it to me, she came into my home for the sole purpose of destroying me and my wife, evil isn't a strong enough word to use for what she did and tried to do. Still I am able to look back at the events and think well those were the sort of reasons we are not together today as I always knew what she was really capable of. Evil ways never win out no matter how someone uses them in the context of saying it was all done for love.. but now I say to myself, sure I was in love with her and we had some good times but time to move on and put the hurt and mistakes behind. Like my wife has told me, she would have let me go if she thought this woman would have been the right sort of person for me but even she could see how this other woman could and would have destroyed me so easily. Buy the book and save yourself a lot of pain. The other person will come after you will all their hate. I know it happened to me and unfortunately I always knew it would one day ..<p>"Affairs are not just about sex.", January 30, 2000
Reviewer: Diane Wiltjer from Great Falls, Virginia, USA
As a family mediator, I have seen many couples end their marriage because one of them has had an extramarital affair. After reading Ms. Brown's second book, "Affairs: A Guide to Working Through the Repercussions of Infidelity," I am more convinced than ever that an affair is not a good reason to end a marriage before the WHY of the affair is worked through. Ms. Brown identifies five types of affairs. She believes that some affairs, when worked through by both spouses together in a nonjudgmental setting, can lead to a happier, more fulfilling marriage than the couple ever experienced before--even before the affair. "Affairs..." is easy to read and contains checklists and other useful information to decide how and if the impact of the affair can be worked through so a new beginning of trust and love can emerge. This is definitely a book that offers hope, healing, and practical help to anyone who has been affected by the aftermath of an extramarital affair. ("Affairs..." follows another excellent book, written for therapists, "Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment.")<p> <hr></blockquote><p>[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Here's another "convict" affair on the D/D board:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=006527

Did you ever share with us what your "evidence" showed on Friday? Did you get what you were expecting? Did you call Steve H about confronting W about it?

SC:<p>"But I put stuff like this in there so I can "see" Faith1 roll her eyes, and "hear" Orchid sighing and saying, "Geez; Cadet is getting out of control again, better get back there before he blows it", but mainly, to see if anyone's really paying attention!
(I know I'm going to get flamed for that! )"<p>...2long gets out the smoke wrench, turns the valves on the tanks, lights the acetylene and brings up the oxygen to balance the 6300-degree (F) flame... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

SC:<p>From your quoted reviews of Brown's book: <p>"Nothing ever makes an individual trustworthy except his or her own good character. An affair need not show anything wrong with the marriage, but it ALWAYS shows unreliable character--a person who does not keep promises and engages in deceit is (by definition)unreliable. If you are the betrayer, you will never become a reliable partner without reforming the moral callousness that enabled you to use betrayal to make yourself feel better. If you are the betrayed, you make a serious mistake in believing that anything you can do will make your partner more reliable. Yes, you might be able to decrease the partner's unhappiness; but then you will have taken responsibility for keeping the partner happy enough that he or she won't do what they should never be willing to do anyway.<p>I've seen marriages destroyed by well-meaning therapists who convince partners that something is wrong with the marriage, when there isn't, really--when some individual therapy or moral education for the betrayer could have saved the marriage. I've seen therapists ratify the betrayed person's broken sense of self by telling them they had a role in bringing it on themselves, thus forever warping their understanding of themselves and of the moral demands of marriage. Ms. Brown invites more of the same. <p>All in the name of a dogma-both partners contribute-that makes no scientific or logical sense. <p>I have about decided that books by psychologists and social workers are the last sources you should consult when dealing with infidelity. None of them, that I've found, seem to reflect much understanding of ethics, of the psychology and sociology of social institutions, of agency and patience, or even of basic logic."<p>
Who was this person? An expert? I have to 'fess out that this "sounds good" to me because I want so hard to believe that the slow progress over here is due, not to my or my C's inability to identify what was wrong with our M, but because the As happened at all. Am I just trying to feel better about myself at my WW's expense?

"But I put stuff like this in there so I can "see" Faith1 roll her eyes, and "hear" Orchid sighing and saying, "Geez; Cadet is getting out of control again, better get back there before he blows it", but mainly, to see if anyone's really paying attention!
(I know I'm going to get flamed for that! )"<p>
LOL.... I didn't SEE that! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] Guess I wasn't paying attention!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

2L: You're the first one to catch on to that! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

oohhhhh... I see!!! In regards to Spacey's threats to do something "dramatic"... JUST to get a rise out of me and Orchid!!!<p>tee-hee... Guess I figured you are just spouting off steam, and won't really do it. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] yep... rolling my eyes!!!<p>No flames, here... I appreciate Spacey keeping me on my toes by hiding little presents for me here and there! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
[QB...LOL.... I didn't SEE that! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] Guess I wasn't paying attention!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [/QB]<hr></blockquote><p>GOTCHA' BABY!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]