<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>...Who was this person? An expert? I have to 'fess out that this "sounds good" to me because I want so hard to believe that the slow progress over here is due, not to my or my C's inability to identify what was wrong with our M, but because the As happened at all. Am I just trying to feel better about myself at my WW's expense?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I have no idea; just an Amazon username, so I wouldn't assume it's an "expert".<p>I do see the point they make, but I think it's naive to believe that "the state of the M" and the environment of the R don't have an effect on the potential betrayer.<p>I'm a firm believer in that, given the right opportunity, many people will do things that are inherently believed to be wrong, or that they might not otherwise do. In the end, it is, to a certain extent, the law, and society's unwritten laws, that keep us from behavior we might otherwise act on.<p>Sure, having "weak character" or other character flaws might facilitate this, but I don't think it explains every case, and it's a cop-out to believe that it is ALL the betrayer's fault, and that it's only a character flaw. There's more to it than that.<p>And I also believe in a person's ability to change. After all, (especially those of us who have read and really learned here, are living proof of that), we learn and change all the time; and our kids learn and re-learn in front of our own eyes, and I've learned and taught as my work experiences have taught me what works and what doesn't, and so on.<p>I think it's too easy, too pat, to dismiss an affair as just a character flaw, and especially to state that it's impossible to change the flaw in someone's character.

SC:<p>It does make me wonder, then, whether the reviewer was a victim of an A that wasn't processed and ended in a DV, thus leaving them bitter and rationalizing their own responsibility down to a minimum. <p>You're right. I do really know more all the time just what my responsibility for our M going south was. But I also know that my W's choice to have an A was not an appropriate "response." And was none of my responsibility. And so we continue...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>It does make me wonder, then, whether the reviewer was a victim of an A that wasn't processed and ended in a DV, thus leaving them bitter and rationalizing their own responsibility down to a minimum. <p>You're right. I do really know more all the time just what my responsibility for our M going south was. But I also know that my W's choice to have an A was not an appropriate "response." And was none of my responsibility. And so we continue...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, no question that the moral values and the character of the WS plays a part; I'm not going to be an apologist for WSs here!
All I'm saying is that there's more to it than that. And part of the responsibility lies with the BS and their handling of the R and M.<p>Oh, and there's another thing; reality is that we are all flawed in some ways. No arguing that. So how do we deal with it?<p>By taking the "academic" route and saying "there's nothing that can be done, it's a character flaw", or do we try to find the middle ground; "OK, we know my WW has this character flaw; can we keep it under control?" How? "well we can fulfill all of her emotional needs, for instance" or we can follow a POJA, etc. etc.<p>We "compensate" if you will, for those flaws, by counteracting them, even if we are not able to "correct" them per se, or change them.<p>Same with mental illness; we can say "he's psychotic and dangerous, write him off, lock him up" or we can say "while on this drug, he's under control, so let's watch him and give him the drug."
It doesn't mean there was a change or correction of the flaw, but we put it under some control and observation, which minimizes the risk of recurrence.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>Did you ever share with us what your "evidence" showed on Friday? Did you get what you were expecting? Did you call Steve H about confronting W about it?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No, Not yet, and No.
Sorry, I've been meaning to respond but got carried away with less important, but much more fun matters! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Info did not arrive, I'm trying to track it as we speak. But fear not! I shall begin "Affairs that don't end...The Confirmation" with the infamous "smoking gun" info [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Space,<p>Picture me waking up from a major LB weekend; sitting on the floor looking around and saying "Wow what happened? What crazy woman was that that said all of those things?" Oh...it was me...<p>Back to reading Give/Take because it was my Taker whom I visualize as dressed in black wearing a black mask holding a black sword, riding a big black horse charging to the scene to viciously attack FWH while he sat unaware minding his own business! I have the Taker back under control now, and am picking myself up off of the floor to try and figure out WHAT HAPPENED?? CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Hi Space,<p>Picture me waking up from a major LB weekend; sitting on the floor looking around and saying "Wow what happened? What crazy woman was that that said all of those things?" Oh...it was me...<p>Back to reading Give/Take because it was my Taker whom I visualize as dressed in black wearing a black mask holding a black sword, riding a big black horse charging to the scene to viciously attack FWH while he sat unaware minding his own business! I have the Taker back under control now, and am picking myself up off of the floor to try and figure out WHAT HAPPENED?? CSue</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Welcome back!
I'm not sure I want to ask any more about this...but if you care to tell... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

H SC, cking in... I have been on m y own little emotional rollercoaster for 2 days... and actually resulting to having a wine cooler this afternoon... oh no! could I be a closet alcoholic... I usually dont drink under stress... but I am out of anti d's ..> i did not pay my cobra.. and I am desperate to calm myself.. I took headache medication too... after 2 blackberry wine coolers I started to chill and smiled and cracked a joke... I feel a little stupid... but I got myself way out of shape mostly over my families reaction to my time with my H.... ALL VERY BAD.. mom and sis are irate and punishing me... etc.... very bad.. as I have so much contact with my parents that it would drive any person nuts... <p>I cked out daycare prices today and started to freak thinking about an extra 1000 a month or so going to daycares fow what my mom does... for me... albeit with some strings attached.. but she still loves the kids..<p>DO TELL about your info. I am curious.<p>thanks so much for meeting us last friday, it was fun... I hope we make it a monthly thing. I apprecitate the friendship and sharing stories and comparing war stories.. is just so calming to know I am not the only one.. and that this is so foggy and nutty for our dear ws's/<p>Anyway... I just wish I had my life back... I know you do to. If only clocks could turn back time... I just have trouble dealing with this part of reality that I cant stand right now.<p>
Hope your day is good.
Honey [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Space & Honey,<p>Ok, since this is Space's thread and he said I could tell; and Honey you're supportive too...I guess I could use some MBers perspective. Looking back (whew, glad I can now) I can see where resentment started building, and so on...<p>Funny, because it has to do with what Space and I were talking about earlier - WS moving so slow that a snail or turtle would be speedy in comparison.<p>Ok, resentment started building after last phone meeting with SH; where SH and I both were trying to talk WH into picking up the pace a little bit because where we are is so excruitiatingly painful that it is difficult for me to exist where I am. SH and I wanted WH to schedule appts more frequently with SH to check on progress of homework assignments etc.<p>WH had been on a 3 week break from reading SAA; too overwhelming for him he said. SH left it with us to decide together if we were willing to make more frequent appts (we're at 2 per month). WH told me later he just absolutely couldn't do more because it's more than he can handle, blah,blah,blah. However he did start reading SAA again and agreed to work on next homework assignment. This all happened 6/3/02. clock is ticking in my mind at this point because the homework assignment was to schedule time together to interview each other re:ENs now that we've presented them to each other. This meeting would be to clarify how we would actually carryout meeting ENs. <p>I knew it was a very busy week for H. Career wise he has alot shaking in multiple areas. We agreed it would be the following weekend before we would have a chance to meet. (That would be this past weekend). Side note here is that I have been the leader/pusher through the whole MB thing and I started backing off to see if H would take the initiative to move ahead on his own. So I didn't take the initiative to schedule the upcoming meeting; waiting to see if H would. What I didn't realize was that my clock was ticking and resentment was building...More later

to be continued....<p>Fast forward to Sunday 6/9/02. I don't know why this happens to me but this isn't the 1st time; so I'm going to have to figure out a strategy because there will probably be a next time too.<p>What happens is that when I am sitting in church supposedly listening to the service I start visualizing very graphically WH & OW in PA. I can't seem to stop the pictures from coming into my mind. I tear-up and have a hard time keeping it together hoping no one is noticing. I'd like to rush down the church aisle to escape my thoughts, but don't want to make a scene so I sit still and suffer. H is clueless that this is going on with me as we sit there. Just me in agony.<p>Well this happened on Sunday. Later at home H is in the kitchen updating our family calendar to include his newly scheduled activities so all will know. Still not knowing time bomb clock is ticking in my head; he sitting there cheerfully reviewing all of the highlights of the upcoming week filled with mentally stimulating/fun activities (yes I'm jealous...gave up career to be a stay at home mom;however working internet telecomute job out of home office), compared to me trying to work on computer with clients on phone while KIDS ARE OUT OF SCHOOL FOR THE SUMMER.<p>Not once during his musings of his upcoming schedule did he mention that we needed to schedule MB meeting together. CRACK...I snapped!
More coming...

More...<p>In my worst LB way I said that while he was so happy, I on the other hand had suffered my way through church with these "movie images" of what it must have looked like WH & OW getting it on... and since he hadn't mentioned our time to meet while filling out the calendar our M must not be of value to him etc. <p>Well you can imagine an all out verbal brawl broke out with me saying every terrible thing I could think to say that would hurt him the most. I couldn't stop myself. Talk about being taken over by aliens!! (Now I know that this is the 'Taker' I had mentioned on previous post on this thread).<p>Ended by me having to leave because I was scheduled to teach a class and it was time for me to go.<p>H calls me on my cell phone while I am driving. He is very remorseful, sorry I'm upset etc...I am driving with cell phone in hand sobbing....no emergency makeup to make me look presentable for teaching this class. Sheesh! Finally I say I have to go because I need time to get it together while I finish my drive.<p>4 Hours later I am home again. H is withdrawn (don't blame him a bit)and proceeds to suggest we meet later in the evening re: our homework assignment. Sounded like a good idea at the time doesn't it? Well I wasn't ready (didn't know it though).<p>Stop me Space if this is more than you wanted to know. Don't mean to hijack your thread. CSue

almost finished...<p>Ok, now we're meeting regarding ENs. We both have the same #1 Need. Honesty & Openness. Both good and bad. Good #1 need bad timing. We suffered through the assignment and boy were we open and honest.<p>How did I know we were finished meeting for the evening? WH stands up without a word and walks out of the room. (disrespectful in my book)I feeling like a fool because I'm not really sure if we're done and starting to come to terms with being Corro (That's the name I gave my 'Taker'; you know the one on the black horse - It's my visual of Zorro; only Corro for CSue). Feeling very badly for everything I said that was LB.<p>I go to bed. WH shows up later and says he is sleeping in another room. (This scares the wholly sense out of me...when he does this espcecially since d-day). WH says it's a boundary thing...he needs space. Now I'm a mess. Don't sleep at all for the night; just lie there in fear imagining the worst will happen to us and wondering "WHat the heck happened to me?"<p>Monday, we're both withdrawn, distant, not talking unless we have to. I start saying stupid things later like; MB isn't working for us. I'm cancelling all of our future appointments with SH, I'm not reading the books anymore; not posting on the website. This isn't working for me and I can't take the pain any longer. H just listens and doesn't say much; after all he has a busy day-off on Monday filled with fun and interesting things. So he goes about them.<p>We agreed that we need to talk, but want to give us some more time - we agreed not to talk any more on Monday; especially since I coudldn't stop saying the stupid stuff.<p>Finally H could stay home to watch boys now that he's done with all of his fun stuff.<p>What do I do? I decide that the only thing fun I could think to do was to go to the movies by myself. What did I see? You guessed it...Unfaithful!! I felt that it was just what I deserved.<p>Came home later and picked up Give/Take, a pen and my journal and started trying to figure me out. H came back to our bedroom Monday night and I decided to lurk on this website in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep.<p>Now pondering the last few days, still a little stunned. The end...sigh, CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>... but I got myself way out of shape mostly over my families reaction to my time with my H.... ALL VERY BAD.. mom and sis are irate and punishing me... etc....
... I just wish I had my life back... I know you do to. If only clocks could turn back time... I just have trouble dealing with this part of reality that I cant stand right now.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Honey; I know it sounds harsh, and I fully understand all the pressure you're under, the financial situation doesn't help; (been there, done that) But I would urge you, PLEAD with you to PLEASE remove yourself from this pain...your H is not ready to be a constructive part of your life again; he maybe never WILL be ready.<p>Shut this thing down; live your life; create a new and different life for yourself, you are young and beautiful, and your heart is in the right place; you deserve better; just go out and get it!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>thanks so much for meeting us last friday, it was fun... I hope we make it a monthly thing. I apprecitate the friendship and sharing stories and comparing war stories.. is just so calming to know I am not the only one.. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm just as happy for the company and the support from people who understand...hope we can keep it going! ;-)<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>DO TELL about your info. I am curious.<p>Hope your day is good.
Honey [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Unfortunately; there's nothing to tell yet. Package got waylaid by UPS (ended up in Minneapolis, of all places!), they said it'd arrive tomorrow...we'll see!<p>Did have a good day; my W and I had lunch at La Madeleine, which I love, and she gave me some more details about the "end of the A"...supposedly happened 2 months ago...I hope there's some truth to that.<p>Also reiterated that she knows how this has hurt me, and that she's so, so sorry...<p>I should be happier; and I would be but for the fear I have that it's not over, and it's more lies...hope I'm wrong. We'll see. I'm hopeful, but 9 months of lies and deceit have made me a non-believer...

<p>[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

{{{CSUE}}}<p>Being crazy is better than being dead ---> or;("I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy")... so what if you went a little nutzo ... we all have our limits .... our boiling point ... out straw that breaks our back.<p>Towards the end of one of my very worst LB rants ... I "took down" the Christmas tree ... literally took it down in less than 60 seconds ... using my feet!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] And then ... I left the house for 3 days!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pick yourself up ... dust yourself off ... and give yourself a hug. This is tough + tiring work ... and sometimes our train goes off the track.<p>Hope I made you smile [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Don't know what to say CSue;<p>Except that we ALL go through these bouts of destructive, LBing, and anti-MB behaviour and you know what?<p>IT'S OK!!!!!!!!!<p>We pick ourselves up from the muddy pit we've fallen into, dust ourselves off, and we're back to our best Plan A behaviour again! <p>There will always be moments like that, days like that, weekends like that; it's part of the job. Remember we're doing something that is extremely difficult; for most of us, the hardest, most challenging thing we'll EVER do! We are not experts (G_d forbid we should have to do this twice!) and we will fail. We just have to pick it back up again and keep going...and I'm glad to see that's just exactly what you've done! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

CSue:<p>I'll chime in here if SC doesn't mind (and I know you don't, do you, SC? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>I learned more today in my MC with my beautiful W that it's all about communication. None of the past memories and bitterness matters if we want to progress and recover. So, I'm of the opinion now that my W's saying that "if I have to yell and scream to get your attention, I'm going to" is her way of voicing her frustration with the way I clammed up during her As and felt hurt by her "attacks". We just need to learn to communicate better. We're doing better since D-day, but we've got a long way to go. Bottom line is that I don't think it does anybody any good to bottle their feelings up inside for any length of time. Pretty soon... someone's having an A. <p>Well, that happened, and we can either go on with our lives together or apart. Apart will be no fun, in my opinion, and together will be a lot of work. But even an "amicable DV" will require a lot of work - pulling heads out of butts on both sides, so why not put the work into rebuilding our Ms?<p>I'm rambling... Anyway, CSue, your feelings are valid, they're about how you feel about what's happened. Tell your H what's on your mind if it affects your M, preferably before you blow a gasket [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Yeah, you'll blow gaskets again. I'm sure my W and I will, but each time the replacement part is easier to get (because they learn to keep more in stock in anticipation of our future visits), meaning we're calmer talking about the truly sensitive subjects, and so their power to overcome us is diminished with time.<p>regards,<p>I now return control of SC's thread to SC.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>{{{CSUE}}}<p>Being crazy is better than being dead ---> or;("I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy")... <p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>All I can say, Pepper, is I wish whatever you have were contagious, and I could somehow get you to have lunch with my W!!!<p>You are a Joy and a Wonder! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>CSue:<p>I'll chime in here if SC doesn't mind (and I know you don't, do you, SC? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Welcome back pardner!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I learned more today in my MC with my beautiful W... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>If I were a chick, this would sound better, but I'll say it anyway; I could just kiss you, 2L! to see you write these words about your wife!<p>(And Ladies, please don't take offense; I'm from an era where saying "chick" to your girl was a GOOD thing!)<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
...that it's all about communication. None of the past memories and bitterness matters if we want to progress and recover. So, I'm of the opinion now that my W's saying that "if I have to yell and scream to get your attention, I'm going to" is her way of voicing her frustration with the way I clammed up during her As and felt hurt by her "attacks". We just need to learn to communicate better. We're doing better since D-day, but we've got a long way to go. Bottom line is that I don't think it does anybody any good to bottle their feelings up inside for any length of time. Pretty soon... someone's having an A.<p>Well, that happened, and we can either go on with our lives together or apart. Apart will be no fun, in my opinion, and together will be a lot of work. But even an "amicable DV" will require a lot of work - pulling heads out of butts on both sides, so why not put the work into rebuilding our Ms?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is unreal! I said almost the exact same words to my W today at lunch; too weird!<p>And it's ABSOLUTELY true! I sure hope they get this, if nothing else! <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I now return control of SC's thread to SC. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Control of my thread? Yeah, right! Never had it, never will! Not with these assertive ladies around!
Dontcha' just love 'em?!?!?!?

SC:<p>"I should be happier; and I would be but for the fear I have that it's not over, and it's more lies...hope I'm wrong. We'll see. I'm hopeful, but 9 months of lies and deceit have made me a non-believer..."<p>Don't stay there. I sure hope that when the info arrives, you feel like a complete idiot (sorry for calling you an idiot, even if I did it tomorrow). This fear $hit is really dangerous to our Ms.<p>Like one of my favorite colloquialisms: "More dangerous than a cow pi$$in' on a flat rock!"<p>Picture that, if you will [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

SC:<p>"I learned more today in my MC with my beautiful W...
------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>If I were a chick, this would sound better, but I'll say it anyway; I could just kiss you, 2L! to see you write these words about your wife!"<p>Eeewwww!!! (but that's a chick word!). My W is beautiful to me. She was dressed to the 9's today, too. Just struck me, particularly since I've been feeling kind euphoric the past couple days.<p>"(And Ladies, please don't take offense; I'm from an era where saying "chick" to your girl was a GOOD thing!)"<p>But it wasn't long after that time when "girl" wasn't a good thing, either! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>At least I've never called her "the ol' lady". She ain't, and won't be even when she is!