Pepper you said:
{{CSUE}}} Being crazy is better than being dead ---> or;("I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy")... so what if you went a little nutzo ... we all have our limits .... our boiling point ... out straw that breaks our back.
Towards the end of one of my very worst LB rants ... I "took down" the Christmas tree ... literally took it down in less than 60 seconds ... using my feet!! And then ... I left the house for 3 days!! <p>I say:
Pepper!!! Hehehehe, yes you&#8217;ve made me laugh. Was this Kung Fu like?
You&#8217;ve given me an idea; too bad Christmas is soooo far away!! LOL<p>Pepper you said:
Pick yourself up ... dust yourself off ... and give yourself a hug. This is tough + tiring work ... and sometimes our train goes off the track.
Hope I made you smile
Pepper <p>I said:
Thanks, with support from you and the others this will fall into perspective. I&#8217;m relieved you didn&#8217;t think I was so bad!
--------------------<p>Spacecase, you said:
Don't know what to say CSue;
Except that we ALL go through these bouts of destructive, LBing, and anti-MB behaviour and you know what?
IT'S OK!!!!!!!!! <p>I say:
Yes&#8230;.well&#8230;.I just expected better from myself; after all I am the one who has been so obsessive about reading/learning/applying all that I know.

Space said:
We pick ourselves up from the muddy pit we've fallen into, dust ourselves off, and we're back to our best Plan A behaviour again!
There will always be moments like that, days like that, weekends like that; it's part of the job. Remember we're doing something that is extremely difficult; for most of us, the hardest, most challenging thing we'll EVER do! We are not experts (G_d forbid we should have to do this twice!) and we will fail. We just have to pick it back up again and keep going...and I'm glad to see that's just exactly what you've done!<p>I say:
Thanks Space, I really appreciate your support! Thanks for the loan of your thread. I was afraid to start a new thread with this!! And&#8230;I wanted your opinion & your humor!!

2long said: CSue
I'll chime in here if SC doesn't mind (and I know you don't, do you, SC? )
I learned more today in my MC with my beautiful W that it's all about communication. <p>I say:
So very true 2long; that is why I am currently reading Give/Take. H & I have so many things going for us; I can hardly imagine what our potential might be.<p>2long says:
None of the past memories and bitterness matters if we want to progress and recover. So, I'm of the opinion now that my W's saying that "if I have to yell and scream to get your attention, I'm going to" is her way of voicing her frustration with the way I clammed up during her As and felt hurt by her "attacks". We just need to learn to communicate better. We're doing better since D-day, but we've got a long way to go. Bottom line is that I don't think it does anybody any good to bottle their feelings up inside for any length of time. Pretty soon... someone's having an A.
Well, that happened, and we can either go on with our lives together or apart. Apart will be no fun, in my opinion, and together will be a lot of work. But even an "amicable DV" will require a lot of work - pulling heads out of butts on both sides, so why not put the work into rebuilding our Ms?
I'm rambling... Anyway, CSue, your feelings are valid, they're about how you feel about what's happened. Tell your H what's on your mind if it affects your M, preferably before you blow a gasket . Yeah, you'll blow gaskets again. I'm sure my W and I will, but each time the replacement part is easier to get (because they learn to keep more in stock in anticipation of our future visits), meaning we're calmer talking about the truly sensitive subjects, and so their power to overcome us is diminished with time.<p>I say:
You&#8217;ve given me a little peace 2long&#8230;sigh!<p>2long says:
I now return control of SC's thread to SC. <p>I say:
Hehehehe &#8211; Space has been too kind!! CSue

CSue;
I'll have you know that you have the honor (perhaps questionable honor) of having made the 400th post to this thread! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi SC.. so glad you had a wonderful lunch... I love La Madeline too! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Glad your wife is being kind... I think you're going to be OK... give Steve some time--- and please think for a few days... even a week before major confrontation etc. if you get bad new s tomorrow... hope it is a good confirmation of the end of the end... let us know ... we are here and care.<p>I am so glad your wife is trying... hopefully with time... she will become the wife you need. It's gonna take a while... they really do get in the Deep FOG... I am suprised they even come out... <p>Honey

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>...I am so glad your wife is trying... hopefully with time... she will become the wife you need. It's gonna take a while... they really do get in the Deep FOG... I am suprised they even come out... <p>Honey</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Amen to that!

2Long said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Well, that happened, and we can either go on with our lives together or apart. Apart will be no fun, in my opinion, and together will be a lot of work. But even an "amicable DV" will require a lot of work - pulling heads out of butts on both sides, so why not put the work into rebuilding our Ms? <hr></blockquote><p>I wish my wife could see that through all that fog. Not being one to get revenge, [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Since it appears that the WW is in "high gear" towards Dv, I don't think she will find the Dv "amicable" very quickly. Oh...she may in time, but at least I will be able to look at her and say.."That was a waste. We could have molded each other to be perfect with all that work".<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Like one of my favorite colloquialisms: "More dangerous than a cow pi$$in' on a flat rock!" <hr></blockquote><p>Ever saw 2 cats with their tails tied together and then thrown over a clothesline? Now that's a site! But then...I may be headed for something similar myself....<p>hcii

hcii:<p>"Ever saw 2 cats with their tails tied together and then thrown over a clothesline? Now that's a site! But then...I may be headed for something similar myself...."<p>No, but I"ve heard about that. Boy, that's cruel.<p>I hope you're in for something much better, either with your W or with someone not suffering from such a severe case of Corneal Rectumitis.

Space,<p>The 400th Post!! Wow I am impressed. It's because you have been so kind as to allow hijackings to occur by letting this be somewhat of a general thread. And I was on a rampage yesterday.<p>I like the posters to your thread! I should probably find 2longs thread on "measured honesty", but in celebration of the 400th post I'll vent here!<p>I learned a new term from WH yesterday. It is called "version of the truth". I said huh?<p>When H defined "version of the truth", I said isn't that lying? H said no..."it's a version of the truth".<p>This was in response to the reason why he fired OW as a client; when asked by his manager. He told manager that OW has PURSUED HIM (NOT!!!)with something other than a professional relationship, and when he turned her down repeatedly he felt that firing her as a client was the only way to deal with her out of respect to our marriage. <p>I knew the above story; just was amazed to hear it defined as anything less than lying to save himself embarrassment. According to H it's a version of the truth. Sheesh! Now I wonder how many versions of truth he has told to me.<p>We did have a very pleasant evening last night with me taking full responsibility for my behavior! I still keep picturing Pepper taking the Christmas tree down with feet in 60 seconds!!<p>Opinions of "version of the truth"?<p>Thanks, CSue<p>But with my less than decent ability to communicate with H lately I will pass this information on to SH for next counseling appt.

CSue:<p>"Opinions of "version of the truth"?"<p>Yeah. Measured dishonesty [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017551

CSue;<p>What your WH is doing is textbook WH; they develop a complete set of rationales for everything and everyone in order to assuage their guilt, and the deep-down knowledge that they are doing something wrong, something that goes against their morals and their "normal" nature.<p>For you, he develops all these "reasons" why you are terrible and don't fulfill him, and every little bad thing about you is enlarged to disproportionate size, so he can justify his looking elsewhere.<p>For his boss, he developed the "she was pursuing me" story, because it's plausible and it rids him of any responsibility.<p>Likewise, he's developed similar stories or "versions of the truth" for everyone; your family, his family, his friends, the kids, etc.<p>Ignore him. It's wayward-babble-talk that merits barely an acknowledgement; certainly nothing you can do or say right now will change that, and it'll probably be a big LB to try. If you must, acknowledge it by saying "I understand why you think that" or "I see what you're saying", or another non-comittal remark. Certainly say nothing that indicates you agree with what he's saying; just acknowledge it and perhaps show you understand where it might be coming from, but no more.<p>We've had quite a few very good discussions about "honesty", "Radical Honesty", "Measured Honesty" and the like here on the MB boards, but these refer more to the interactions between WS and BS rather than with WS and external people. However, the same principles should apply universally and perhaps they'll be helpful to you.<p>Here's a link to 2Long's measure honesty thread:<p>2Long: Measured Honesty vs. radical Honesty<p>Another good one is Pepperband's:<p>Pepperband: Magnanimous Deception and Lies<p>Enjoy!

2long, Space,<p>Thanks for your responses. AGHHHHHHHHHHH! Sigh... There I feel better!<p>I just loggeed back on to dig up 2longs thread because I wanted to be sure you guys saw this. & here you are!!<p>So my question is this...does "version or the truth", and/or "measured dishonesty" mean lack of willingness to take responsibilty for their behavior?<p>To clarify the "version of the truth" story; My H's manager is his employee. He's the boss. He doesn't want her or any other staff members to find out what happened. There's the unresolved issue of OW still owing money to H's company in order to clear up her account now that she has been fired by H. This part of the story isn't over yet...next move is OW's. CSue

Space & Pepper -<p>Just dropping in to say hello. I love both of your quotes about Pick yourself up ... dust yourself off ... and give yourself a hug. This is tough + tiring work ... and sometimes our train goes off the track.<p>It really made me smile! Thank you! Feel free to visit me and my chronicles sometime. Space, have you ever thought about writing a book? I'm a writer by trade and boy have I thought about it, LOL!<p>Llama

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>...So my question is this...does "version or the truth", and/or "measured dishonesty" mean lack of willingness to take responsibilty for their behavior?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ABSOLUTELY! <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To clarify the "version of the truth" story; My H's manager is his employee. He's the boss. He doesn't want her or any other staff members to find out what happened. There's the unresolved issue of OW still owing money to H's company in order to clear up her account now that she has been fired by H. This part of the story isn't over yet...next move is OW's. CSue </strong><hr></blockquote><p>He may have begun digging his own grave if this gets out of control enough for HIS higher-up to take notice. Hope not!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by llama:
<strong>...It really made me smile! Thank you! Feel free to visit me and my chronicles sometime. Space, have you ever thought about writing a book? I'm a writer by trade and boy have I thought about it, LOL!<p>Llama</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know I've posted to you before, but I will visit your "chronicles"...promise!<p>Now that you mention it; I have thought about writing a book; many times! I've written articles (nothing published) within the framework of what I do (The human aspects of technology deployments; training, change management, communications, project management, etc.) but nothing more than that.<p>I do love to write, and it'd be fun! Maybe we can collaborate on one?

Just a quick thought about the "versions of truth" thing... and this may be addressed on those links somewhere...<p>Perhaps what he meant, was this: There are really 3 sides to every story: HIS side, HER side, and THE truth.<p>Everyone has their perception of what happens. We often see situations with blinders on, and see what we want to see.<p>I may have read the situation incorrectly (so forgive me if I did [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ), but I'm just wondering if that's what he meant, and (was it here or on another thread??? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] ) saying something like, "I can see how you feel/see it that way." Respecting the other person's opinion is safer than calling it a lie.<p>?? just rambling... sorry [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Space:<p>Originally posted by CSue:
...So my question is this...does "version or the truth", and/or "measured dishonesty" mean lack of willingness to take responsibilty for their behavior? <p>Space said; ABSOLUTELY<p>I ask:
This sounds like a stupid question but&#8230;.what am I supposed to do about this?<p>I previously said:
To clarify the "version of the truth" story; My H's manager is his employee. He's the boss. He doesn't want her or any other staff members to find out what happened. There's the unresolved issue of OW still owing money to H's company in order to clear up her account now that she has been fired by H. This part of the story isn't over yet...next move is OW's. CSue <p>Space said:
He may have begun digging his own grave if this gets out of control enough for HIS higher-up to take notice. Hope not! <p>I say:
It all depends on whether OW will just simply pay her bill or will this get complicated with more lies etc. Starting to sound like a bad soap opera!<p>Faith Said:
Just a quick thought about the "versions of truth" thing... and this may be addressed on those links somewhere...
Perhaps what he meant, was this: There are really 3 sides to every story: HIS side, HER side, and THE truth.
Everyone has their perception of what happens. We often see situations with blinders on, and see what we want to see.
I may have read the situation incorrectly (so forgive me if I did ), but I'm just wondering if that's what he meant, and (was it here or on another thread??? ) saying something like, "I can see how you feel/see it that way." Respecting the other person's opinion is safer than calling it a lie.
?? just rambling... sorry Faith!<p>I said:<p>Faith, you made me smile!<p>The reality in a brief synopsis is WH on d-day 3/7/02 told me that he pursued 20 year friend for a PA 4 years ago. A lasted 4 months. H ended the A because he knew it wasn&#8217;t the answer to the problems in our M. Contact continued after the A up until d-day when H & I sent our version of a no-contact letter; prior to reading no contact letter in SAA.<p>H over the years used to joke that 20 year friend always made it clear to him that she was/is interested in anything and everything to do with H. I just rolled my eyes and dismissed until d-day. Prior to d-day H & I would often run into friend around town; and she would just &#8220;moon&#8221; over him.<p>In no contact letter H told OW that she would have to find another doctor. What he didn&#8217;t know was that she owed money to the company for previous services rendered. Office sent &#8220;collection notice&#8221;. OW sent H a letter stating since he had &#8220;fired her&#8221; as a client she had assumed that H had told office staff. <p>So explaining to manager, H told a &#8220;version of the truth&#8221; as I mentioned above. Hope this clarifies! CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
<strong>Space:
...So my question is this...does "version or the truth", and/or "measured dishonesty" mean lack of willingness to take responsibilty for their behavior? <p>Space said; ABSOLUTELY<p>I ask:
This sounds like a stupid question but&#8230;.what am I supposed to do about this?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I don't know there is much you CAN do about it. Each couple will have to eventually figure out how and if they will present their problem to the outside world, and I can certainly understand that one might not want to air an affair in the workplace.<p>However, within the context of a Recovery of the marriage using MB principles, he should eventually accept some of these defensive mechanisms he created to justify his illicit relationship, especially those related to how he "demonized" you, whether they were used with the OW or he used them only in his mind, and correct them. Otherwise, they may remain in his mind as "the truth", which is not good.<p>As to how to deal with the outside world, through the POJA you both should agree on how/if/when this should be discussed.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I say:
It all depends on whether OW will just simply pay her bill or will this get complicated with more lies etc. Starting to sound like a bad soap opera!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>That was my point. I hope it doesn't get more complicated by her, perhaps on purpose, and have to involve other people, who might perhaps dig into the details further. That could be embarassing, and in some instances, even lead to dismissal

All:<p>Check out Happy_Hus' post at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=010467&p=2<p>Great metaphor for plan A/B. I'm glad I read it, because part of my conversation with my W this am while dropping her off at the rental agency got me down again. Then I read HH's post and it yanked me back firmly onto the plan A track I worked so hard to build these past months. I'm happy again! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>All:<p>...Great metaphor for plan A/B. I'm glad I read it, because part of my conversation with my W this am while dropping her off at the rental agency got me down again. Then I read HH's post and it yanked me back firmly onto the plan A track I worked so hard to build these past months. I'm happy again! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>DON'T YOU JUST HATE THAT!?! WHY CAN'T IT JUST...FLOW?

SC:<p>Sure beats the white off my a$$!<p>I'm still struggling with how to answer when one of these stupid statements crops up. I'm not fast enough on my feet for handling surprises, and this one came 9 hours ago and I STILL don't have a "comeback." Not that I want to rebuf her with some snide comment - I don't, and that's the trouble. But I don't just want to let them go without saying something "nice" and at the same time useful. <p>Gonna try, when I talk to her on the phone this evening, though.

If I'd known it was an ambush, I would have stayed home.<p>OK, here's a scenario where I just cannot imagine what I could have done and not LB. So I need some serious constructive criticism, because it seems like these just keep happening!<p>Today was clean sheets day, whatever you call it; the day the beds get changed. So my W if doing her thing, the kids are gone, at work, pool...she calls me and asks if I'll help her with a couple of the beds, so I say "yes, I'm coming!". 2 seconds later, she's hollering about the mess in our D's room; "see, they never help with anything, always do the same thing, and then I end up having to clean up for them...." yada, yada, yada. So I come in and start in my very best Plan A tone, "W, they're teenagers, take it easy, don't work yourself up over this stuff so much..." when suddenly, WHAM! the trap springs on the unsuspecting BS:<p>"Well, we agreed that we were going to talk to them about this, didn't we?" she says. Then continues "I was waiting for you to do it after we talked about it twice, to see if you would do it" , "you never do anything around here!" At this point, I knew I was toast. She'd skewered me again! The last vestiges of my best Plan A behavior were rapidly dissipating as I said "What do you mean? Were you testing me?...we were both supposed to do it, we just haven't had a chance with all 3 kids here at once!"<p>She then goes on to say; "Well, I wanted to see if this was as important to you as it is to me, and obviously it's not." Why is it SO EASY for them to just slash away at our few remaining shreds of dignity and restraint? I totally went off: "I can't believe you set a trap for me! Why would you do that? You deliberately set out to trip me!" and I went on about how this had nothing to do with what the problem had been, how come I'm responsible for this, we need to find better ways to communicate these things with the children, etc.....<p>So I try my best recovery under the circumstances; "OK, look, I know this is important, and we need to do it, we will do it, but please don't place these traps for me. It's not right." No such luck; then she says: "And you don't have to keep repeating things, I understood it the first time!" and of course, I had to come back with "well, the tone of your voice and your demeanor do not indicate that you understand, so that's why I repeat it!"<p>You get the drift..needless to say, it degenarated into an argument that I was not going to win. Never have, never will, I should give it up!<p>So anyway, later when things had calmed down, and all the fires in my stomach had been put out, I went downstairs, hugged her, gave her a kiss, and said: "W, can I tell you something?...look, when I say these things I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm just trying to help us see that there are many things we both need to change, and that's whay I say them. And I wish you would do the same for me." she said it was OK, that she'd try to also do it, and that she understood....yeah right!<p>OK; so what is a man to do when faced with this? How could I have handled it better? Are there just some traps we cannot avoid? Am I just dense or stupid, or hot-headed or what?<p>Help me out here....I keep falling unto these!