SC:<p>"If I'd known it was an ambush, I would have stayed home."<p>Hie yourself on over the local Home Despot and pick up one of those mirrors for seeing around corners... Carry this wherever you go so you can see ambushes before they happen!<p>"OK, here's a scenario where I just cannot imagine what I could have done and not LB. So I need some serious constructive criticism, because it seems like these just keep happening!"<p>Before going on to the specifics of the conversation, you could have walked out at a number of points and diminished the LBs, perhaps, giving her time to think about what she'd done? <p>"Today was clean sheets day, whatever you call it; the day the beds get changed."<p>Again, before going on, ...MAKE THE TEENAGERS CHANGE THEIR OWN SHEETS! This kind of incident is causing arguments with your W. Would your kids rather see you DV than do their own laundry? I know, I know. My D STILL doesn't like to have to do things for herself, but she DOES them. My son will even do things when asked, like dishes and even cooking from time to time. He likes to help.<p>"So my W if doing her thing, the kids are gone, at work, pool..."<p>Your kids shoot pool? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Sorry, couldn't resist.<p>"she calls me and asks if I'll help her with a couple of the beds, so I say "yes, I'm coming!"<p>GOOD ANSWER<p>"2 seconds later, she's hollering about the mess in our D's room; "see, they never help with anything, always do the same thing, and then I end up having to clean up for them...." yada, yada, yada."<p>For MY W, the "yada yada yada" would be where she'd fly off the handle and carom around the room!<p>"So I come in and start in my very best Plan A tone, "W, they're teenagers, take it easy, don't work yourself up over this stuff so much...""<p>I agree that you did a pretty good job here, but again, the teenagers need to take on some responsibility for their own $hit.

"when suddenly, WHAM! the trap springs on the unsuspecting BS:"<p>We feel for you, man!
"Well, we agreed that we were going to talk to them about this, didn't we?" she says. Then continues "I was waiting for you to do it after we talked about it twice, to see if you would do it""<p>Wifey-poo spousal unit made a big booboo here. You talked about it. You POJA'd it, right? You BOTH should sit them teenager aliens down and tell them about it. My W did (does?) this very thing a lot - make a "requirement" for me to do something, then DON'T TELL ME ABOUT IT, ASSUME I KNOW WHAT SHE'S THINKING, AND THEN POUNCE WHEN I DON'T DO WHAT SHE DECIDED I WAS SUPPOSED TO DO after she's waited the appropriate amount of time to allow me to dig that grave to the proper 6-foot depth!<p>"you never do anything around here!""<p>As you know, I've gotten this very statement many times over the years! AND, when I try to point out what I HAVE done, I get a revision "it's never enough!" There is no winning. I actually have contemplated writing down everything I do for the family, her, the house, the cats, the bird, the fish... in a notebook so that I can pull it out and SHOW her that I do "EVERYTHING" around here! (of course, I wouldn't write ANYTHING she did down, so that I could WIN that argument!).

"At this point, I knew I was toast."<p>I hope that's jam in your pocket!

"She'd skewered me again! The last vestiges of my best Plan A behavior were rapidly dissipating as I said "What do you mean? Were you testing me?...we were both supposed to do it, we just haven't had a chance with all 3 kids here at once!""<p>True, but DOH! Homer would be proud! If it were me (unthankfully, it is! Only it's in So. Cal. rather than Baja Oklahoma) and I were trying to live by the things I've said since yesterday, I'd "take it" and continue the true plan A sweetness. Will she be able to keep up these ambushes if you don't take the bait? (I know... ...probably! At least that's the way I feel sometimes in So. Cal.). But I guess I'm hoping that she'll realize how silly it all is, if she's playing this game alone all the time (and the beds are getting made anyway).<p>"She then goes on to say; "Well, I wanted to see if this was as important to you as it is to me, and obviously it's not." Why is it SO EASY for them to just slash away at our few remaining shreds of dignity and restraint? I totally went off: "I can't believe you set a trap for me! Why would you do that? You deliberately set out to trip me!""<p>You are absolutely right in this assessment of the conversation. But, could you have responded without getting upset? Hard to do, especially the more you know about what's going on based on your experience. Maybe we need a "chick's" viewpoint here??<p>"and I went on about how this had nothing to do with what the problem had been, how come I'm responsible for this, we need to find better ways to communicate these things with the children, etc....."<p>This sounds like good $hit to me.<p>"So I try my best recovery under the circumstances; "OK, look, I know this is important, and we need to do it, we will do it, but please don't place these traps for me. It's not right.""<p>More good $hit.<p>"No such luck; then she says: "And you don't have to keep repeating things, I understood it the first time!""<p>This is one of those wonderful tripping tactics used by aliens the universe over - not "winning" the argument? Trip up your opponent by suddenly changing the subject!<p>But I didn't offer any help, did I. Chicks?<p>"Yeah, and and of course, I had to come back with "well, the tone of your voice and your demeanor do not indicate that you understand, so that's why I repeat it!""<p>DOH again!! <p>"You get the drift..needless to say, it degenarated into an argument that I was not going to win. Never have, never will, I should give it up!"<p>MX missles at ten paces, tomorrow at dawn!<p>"So anyway, later when things had calmed down, and all the fires in my stomach had been put out, I went downstairs, hugged her, gave her a kiss, and said: "W, can I tell you something?...look, when I say these things I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm just trying to help us see that there are many things we both need to change, and that's whay I say them. And I wish you would do the same for me." she said it was OK, that she'd try to also do it, and that she understood....yeah right!"<p>This is the most positive thing you said you said the whole time. Give her the benefit of the doubt. No "yeah right's". She's your W. You have to live with her, she has to live with you (and you want her to keep wanting to). This is "real love." Vomit and water heaters and all!<p>"OK; so what is a man to do when faced with this?"<p>See the above.<p>"How could I have handled it better?"<p>See the above, and wait for the chicks to chime in, too.<p>"Are there just some traps we cannot avoid?"<p>I'm betting, yes. <p>"Am I just dense or stupid, or hot-headed or what?"<p>Sure, probably all the above at one time or another. But... and this is the most important thing - YOU CARE, and YOU'RE TALKING! We went years without the followup kind of conversation and hugs you describe at the end of your post. You're going to make it... Just not in one sentence!<p>"Help me out here....I keep falling unto these!" <p>And so you will. (and so will I! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

2L;<p>Yes, there was actually a point in the conversation when I DID walk away, tried to anyway. That was right before she said I never did anything around here...just can't win, don't really want to win...I'll take a draw!

This is for YOU .... SPACECOOKIE!<p>{{{{{{{{ HUG }}}}}}}<p>Take it easy .... this is some hard [censored].<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>This is for YOU .... SPACECOOKIE!<p>{{{{{{{{ HUG }}}}}}}<p>Take it easy .... this is some hard [censored].<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Pep; it's SO good to have you around!
If my W hears someone else is calling me cookie, though...I don't know if we'll be able to save this! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Here's a chick POV...<p>"You never do anything around here!"<p>I don't know your W, or what you actually "do around there". I have a feeling you do bunches. This might mean, "You never do what *I* need you to do, the WAY I need you to do it, WHEN I need you to do it." It's TOTALLY unfair that we expect you Martians to read our minds. But we *swear* that we've asked you a million times to do something a *certain* way, at a *certain* time. It was probably only once - and it MIGHT have even been muttering to ourselves in the shower. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You know one rule of communication - NEVER use the words *never* or *always*. She used that dangerous word, and it might-as-well been a porcupine up your butt. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The trick here, IMO, is to keep your cool [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] . I think you responded pretty well. But arguing with an alien is durn frustrating, and pointless. You know the routine around here... change your dance... and she will have to change hers.<p>Keep in mind Spacey, that one reason some of us have identified for the A, is the WS was NOT open with us about their needs/unhappiness/uneasiness, etc. How many newbies come on MB saying "I didn't KNOW he was unhappy!!!!" For whatever reason... whether most WS's are conflict-avoiders, or whether we *punish* them when they speak their mind... or a combo #3 of both (super-size those fries of course)... it has become a pattern in many of our relationships. <p>So.... same ole routine here... YOU can't control her.... you CAN control your reactions to her. <p>Try the hokey-pokey for a while instead of the tango. It might be fun. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>JMHO....

See, that's just the thing Faith; I don't seem to be able to do it!<p>She knows the buttons to push, and when to push them, and I'm almost helpless. I know I should have walked away, but it seems so hard to do when we never talk about these things, it's like I jump at ANY chance to talk about how we do things, what we should change.<p>One of her big complaints is that "that's ALL you want to do", and as far as I'm concerned, she NEVER wants to do it. As it is, we barely get in 1 hour of R or M talk a week, when the lunch doesn't get cancelled, and that's not nearly enough to get anything done.<p>But she still feels it's ALL THE TIME!<p>I swear one of these days I'm going to burst!

It's ok Spacey. You're doing fine... really!!!<p>R E L A X<p>You're doing the BEST you can. Which is great, IMO!!!<p>{{{{{{spacey}}}}}<p>I think last night's ambush is not as big a deal as you think. In the whole scheme of things. You are doing great, Steve is working with ya'll, and you are going through some growing pains.<p>Hold on tight to this roller coaster. There's loops and turns that can throw you off. I don't think you'll regret holding on.<p>Do you ever lurk on the recovery board? I don't, but I wonder if you might see some things over there that will help you. <p>Hang in there friend... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey Faith! Thanks for the encouragement. I know I'm doing OK, it just pains me to fall for the trap again.<p>I do sometimes lurk in Recovery, but rarely. I should go there more often...every time I do, there's good stuff to learn.<p>I just still feel like I belong in JFO...!

Hey SC:<p>Have you ever thought of building a full-scale replica of the Titanic out of popsicle sticks or Lego blocks?<p>I agree, you're doing very well, just don't fall into the trap of focusing too closely on the details of what happens and what's said. Stand back from time to time and cogitate on the big picture.<p>And take up some interesting hobbies to keep your mind occupied, like building steamers out of Legos... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: 2long ]</p>

Oh, I'm not writing off the process for this, believe me! I'm just upset at myself because I haven't been able to break that habit of reacting...but I'll keep working on it.<p>Had a good session w/Steve this morning too. He's concerned that we may be "building the skyscraper" too far before we have definite evidence of on-going contact...but that can't be helped. There have been all kinds of complications to getting the info, the first copy was totally unreadable, and I may never get it at all. And if that happens, I'll have to resort to my old "tricks" to try to get it.<p>His fear is that as we move along on the assumption that contact has indeed ended; as she states, and we move forward to discussing our EN and LB Q's, and he keeps "chipping away" at the "privacy-reluctance" of my W, if it does turn out that there is continued contact, the "fall" may be more severe, and we may not be able to "pick up the pieces and keep moving forward".<p>In other words, he feels it would be better to have the "fall" (confrontation with reality) happen as early as possible. If we have moved forward quite a bit, and then the fall occurs, my W may not feel "comfortable" again with Steve to continue, since she'll know he discovered her lies.<p>So onward we move; and this week should be interesting, when we discuss out mutual ENQs...

Space,<p>Oooooohhh...I have so much to say; so little time! I will be back.<p>I can especially relate to "clean sheets day" & 2long's response.<p>What's so great about you guys is that you present questions and answers in such a funny - humorous way that you make this whole process FUN!<p>Oh? Are we allowed to have fun?<p>Be back with more...CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,<p>What's so great about you guys is that you present questions and answers in such a funny - humorous way that you make this whole process FUN!<p>Oh? Are we allowed to have fun?
CSue</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, making fun of ourselves is the only way we stay sane, and hopefully to get SOMEONE to laugh...are we allowed to have fun? Of course!!! If it weren't fun it would be too painful! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Space:
&#8220;If I'd known it was an ambush, I would have stayed home.
OK, here's a scenario where I just cannot imagine what I could have done and not LB. So I need some serious constructive criticism, because it seems like these just keep happening!
Today was clean sheets day, whatever you call it; the day the beds get changed. So my W if doing her thing, the kids are gone, at work, pool...she calls me and asks if I'll help her with a couple of the beds, so I say "yes, I'm coming!". 2 seconds later, she's hollering about the mess in our D's room; "see, they never help with anything, always do the same thing, and then I end up having to clean up for them...." yada, yada, yada.&#8221; <p>Space, oops! This sounds just like me! She&#8217;s venting only!<p>&#8220;So I come in and start in my very best Plan A tone, "W, they're teenagers, take it easy, don't work yourself up over this stuff so much..." when suddenly, WHAM! the trap springs on the unsuspecting BS:&#8220;<p>She might have heard you saying &#8220;Messy rooms are important to you only wife. Not a priority to the rest of us in the family&#8221;.<p>"Well, we agreed that we were going to talk to them about this, didn't we?" she says. Then continues "I was waiting for you to do it after we talked about it twice, to see if you would do it" , "you never do anything around here!"<p>Hmmm. She wasn&#8217;t playing fair here.<p>&#8220;At this point, I knew I was toast. She'd skewered me again! The last vestiges of my best Plan A behavior were rapidly dissipating as I said "What do you mean? Were you testing me?...we were both supposed to do it, we just haven't had a chance with all 3 kids here at once!"
She then goes on to say; "Well, I wanted to see if this was as important to you as it is to me, and obviously it's not."<p>A possible alternative here is &#8220;Wife you&#8217;re right; kids messy rooms aren&#8217;t as important to me as they are to you; however what is important to me is that you are upset about this, so let&#8217;s make a plan to talk with them tonight together.&#8221; Space, this could have been an opportunity to make a deposit in her LB on the domestic support EN.<p>&#8220;Why is it SO EASY for them to just slash away at our few remaining shreds of dignity and restraint? I totally went off: "I can't believe you set a trap for me! Why would you do that? You deliberately set out to trip me!" and I went on about how this had nothing to do with what the problem had been, how come I'm responsible for this, we need to find better ways to communicate these things with the children, etc..... &#8220;<p>Space you are absolutely right on this one!!<p>
&#8220;So I try my best recovery under the circumstances; "OK, look, I know this is important, and we need to do it, we will do it, but please don't place these traps for me. It's not right." No such luck; then she says: "And you don't have to keep repeating things, I understood it the first time!" and of course, I had to come back with "well, the tone of your voice and your demeanor do not indicate that you understand, so that's why I repeat it!"
You get the drift..needless to say, it degenarated into an argument that I was not going to win. Never have, never will, I should give it up!&#8221;<p>No giving up allowed!! I think this kind of situation is a reflection of the stress in the house. There is probably adjustments when college student comes home for the summer right?<p>"So anyway, later when things had calmed down, and all the fires in my stomach had been put out, I went downstairs, hugged her, gave her a kiss, and said: "W, can I tell you something?...look, when I say these things I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm just trying to help us see that there are many things we both need to change, and that's whay I say them. And I wish you would do the same for me." she said it was OK, that she'd try to also do it, and that she understood....yeah right!" <p>Good communications here!<p>"OK; so what is a man to do when faced with this? How could I have handled it better? Are there just some traps we cannot avoid? Am I just dense or stupid, or hot-headed or what?
Help me out here....I keep falling unto these!"<p>No, no; you&#8217;re just annoyed that she set you up. I also think that just working on M especially where all of are; working so intensely that there is an overall air of stress in the household. Kind of like in my situation where it seems at times a hangnail is reason for panic in the streets. Overall Space, I think you did beautifully. You recovered nicely!! CSue

Today, for the first time, I actually had a "vision" that it was POSSIBLE that my WW might be telling the truth, and that perhaps there really is hope after all. Not that there wasn't ANY hope if she was not telling the truth, but that would be less hope.<p>Anyway; The scenarios I imagined were 2:
1. She's still in contact and in an ongoing relationship with the original OM, now comfortable in the fact that I'm not snooping, and that perhaps, she could keep this going indefinitely.<p>2. That she'd given up the original OM in favor of a new OM, probably a local guy, and was doing OK because she could honestly say she was NOT in contact with the OM (the original one), and at the same time, since I'm not snooping, she could keep THIS R going indefinitely.<p>Now, you may ask, why does this guy think like this!?!?!? So I'll tell you.<p>To begin with, she appears way too happy and chipper for me to feel that she's in withdrawl or has otherwise removed her EN support from somewhere else. (It would be presumptious on my part to believe that I am now magically fulfilling ALL her ENs) and I feel like she probably is pretty sure I will not now leave her, especially if she believes I won't snoop anymore, or that she's managed to create a bullet-proof communication system. And she may have. She's been pretty sly about this stuff. Or she feels safe, that even if I DO leave her, she'll be fine.<p>Secondly, she continues her misterious, secretive behavior, pretty much as before, so there's no reason to believe that there are NOT secret things going on. Often closes our bedroom door when she's alone which she never did before, is always out and about in the morning, the calls saying "I'm just walking in the mall", the rapid hiding of something when I walk in, etc. etc. etc. there's a thousand little things.<p>Thirdly, although she has now admitted that the A went on at least until 2 months ago, (end of March/beginning of April), she has not disclosed much more information than that. Nothing about how contact was maintained, mail delivery, calls, friends who helped her, nothing at all, so it's not exactly credible that it has, in fact, ended. Nothing about how she felt, what he said, what she told him, how and when it happened, etc. And if it had happened, there'd be no reason for her not to disclose some of this info, as she's very concerned about regaining my trust, as she's stated to Steve on several occasions.<p>Fourth, she has repeatedly (at LEAST 5 times) said it was over, only to be found out later that it was not over, so clearly, there's an established pattern of lying about this, and wishing to keep things as they are, probably believing that somehow this is OK, and it doens't hurt our M, etc.<p>And lastly, I do have some pretty good circumstantial evidence: Calls to the girlfriends where she stayed in Orlando when she visited the OM before, calls to Avis, when she said she was NOT getting a rental car on her trip to FL, calls to a misterious 800 number that answers "please enter your PIN", her endless pick-up of her home office phone line to check for messages, CONSTANTLY changing the PINS for her v-mail, cell phone, web-sites, etc. etc. etc.<p>So, having said all this, I've had a pretty good idea and feeling that the A is not over. Wouldn't you?<p>Now. As I keep thinking about it, and on Steve's suggestion that perhaps some of this is just my paranoia playing tricks on me, and to think about the positive possibilities and not the negative ones, here's the scenario I came up with.<p>OK, maybe she's happy and chipper because we are in MC with Steve, things SEEM to be going OK, and we ARE making SOME progress. And of course, My Plan A has just been stellar, so she's feeling pretty good about our possibilities, and sees that maybe this old fossil of her husband just might turn out to be OK after all. Sure, he's just a cavman, but maybe not such a bad caveman after all. Stop laughing; I'm serious here!<p>Maybe she still appers to be "misterious" and "secretive" because she just got used to doing these things, and maybe she IS just calkling her banks and credit cards to check balances and such. And maybe she picks up for messages 300 times a day because of her business. And maybe she closes the bedroom door because she's become shy now that our kids are teenagers, and maybe her Pilates exercises are a bit much to be comfortable with anyone watching. OK, I can see that. I mean it!
And maybe she needs to be out at the mall just walking around because her hubby is at home all the time, and she does need some time alone, and she thinks very well and relaxes with walks in the mall. I know; I can be a pain, and it IS important to get away from me sometimes. I'm not offended...really!<p>As for the end of the A; sure; maybe it did end 2 months ago, as she says, and maybe she has not revealed any other information because she's embarassed, doesn't want to reveal too much, especially her helpful friends, and she doesn't want to have to admit she WAS lying the last 6, 7, 8 times. OK, I can see that. And maybe the goodbye was too painful, and she just doesn't want to talk about it yet. And yes, maybe with Steve's help she now sees that it is impossible to fix our M while the A continues, and that's exactly what she's done. After all, these Harleys really know their stuff, and if they say that's how it is, then that's how it is!<p>The calls; well, the calls can certainly be explained. These are, after all, nice girls who allowed her to stay with them and not have to pay for a hotel when she was visiting the OM, and they are still friends, so a chat with them here and there is OK. Never mind that the calls were 1-2 weeks before her last trip there. Now Avis...I have no idea why she called Avis; maybe they owed her a refund? The mystery 800-number? that;'s probably someone's pager, and it requires a PIN to access it. Never mind that one call to the number was 31 minutes. I don't know; bear with me, I'm trying here! Now the PIN changing...that's just a habit. Security, you know; in this age of intenet fraud, you can't be too careful!<p>So you see, under this new and improved scenario, it does look like there's another explanation for all of this stuff. Nothing out of the ordinary here; just some old habits that will stop with time, as trust begins to be rebuilt, and the new and improved hubby starts showing the changes ARE really permanent and better than expected, and some innocuous calls to old buddies that mean nothing, and the Avis refund is in the mail, and we're well on our way to recovery! Withdrawl? What's withdrawl? The OM? What was his name again? See? just a few more sessions with Steve, a little more effort on both our parts, and we're home free; the happiest of happy couples, with a new and improved marriage and relationship, just ready to face any challenge that comes our way, as we walk, hand in hand, into the sunset!<p>See? It's not that hard. The power of positive thinking!
If you agree, call me right now; I've got a bridge for sale! It's in Brooklyn.

SC:<p>"Now, you may ask, why does this guy think like this!?!?!?"<p>MAY I, PLEASE!??? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

"Sure, he's just a cavman, but maybe not such a bad caveman after all. Stop laughing; I'm serious here!"<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I can't help it! You SLAY me!

"If you agree, call me right now; I've got a bridge for sale! It's in Brooklyn."<p>And I've got a really nice sinkhole in FL that I'd like to sell!<p>You still have the same marching orders, no matter the outcome of what all you said (and I did read it all!):<p>1) You need to make your W feel comfortable telling you personal stuff (like I do mine).
2) You need to clarify with her and SH what constitutes honesty, and what are lies of omission (like I need to do with mine).
3) You need to keep up your plan A (like I do).
4) You'll need to keep tabs on YOU, and see where you are when or if she "comes around." If you're worn out or out of love and she's still putzing around, you've passed your plan B deadline (like I will have [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>I think you're right. She hasn't really shown remorse for what she's done (and it doesn't matter much whether the A is over or not). I bet she will at some point. <p>Hang limp, SC. You're still doing fine! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: 2long ]</p>

Hi SC... As a females who hates to see the mess my kids make and that no-one cares but me.. and that I get overwhelmed with housework and etc.. and feel so alone in it... <p>DO tell her you willl support ehre and help here with that domestic need stuff... no matter what she needs... I bet she will start to melt...<p>when My h started doing the dishes... I wanted to make love... it makes my heart melt to have a man care aobut our home and help me care for it.. My dream would be for my H to help me clean out my closet and go through all that stuff with me and sort it out... I know that sounds so corny... I have begged him to help me with stuff like that .. but he refuses.. and it hruts... I wish he would help... well once he cleaned out my sons closet with him and I was close to heaven... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>when we women work in the workplace and then still have the responsibility of the home on our backs.. and we reall ywant a beaut. clean organized home.. and if it is a mess.. it is a reflection on us and makes us feel bad.. and like a loser wife.. since old views have not yet changed... <p>when someone comes into a messy house.. usually they think.. oh this woman must be slob< right? not the man.. alll men are slobs.. rightLOL>. just kidding.. but really WHEN WE WORK... it is so overwheoming.. <p>DO yall have a housekeepper.. now you know my opinion about spanish 19 yr old.. housekeepers who offer other services... <p>I have an older housekeepr... and she is awesome.. I did not have her come for the last few weeks...b ecause she does reorganzie my stuff and soomtimes I cant find things.. and deep down I would love to do it myself.. but truth is there is too much on my plate.. anyway.. this may not be the answer.. but maybe an option- or put the girls on some true chore routines and requirements... dont let them go out or do what they want unless room duty is done and rooms are [censored] and span .. that is what my mom did.. and our house was always SUPER CLEAN...<p>see it is just so hard.. we women want to be the domestic princesses but when we have JOBS>.. etc on our plate.. and even if not... we love to have a man share housework with us... I mean that just makes me fall in lust.. with my h.. when he did that kind of stuf.f..<p>anyway... <p>I think you are probably doing just fine... hugs to you! You will be fine, be patient.. (yea, who's talking here?)<p>I have thought even more..to write you.. but my kids are torturing me now for dinner / attention... so off I go to serve them.<p>Honey [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>"Now, you may ask, why does this guy think like this!?!?!?"<p>MAY I, PLEASE!??? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, I don't 2L, dear! I think it's a guy thing!
Must be...who else could be that cynical? Right, dahlin'? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Honey:<p>Dang! You're right on there. I need to offer to help my W clean and organize stuff more. She gets mad about things being a mess, but doesn't think anyone can help, but when I help, IT HELPS! So, I'm gonna try and help more! Think that'll help?? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]