2long:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>doesn't think anyone can help, but when I help, IT HELPS! So, I'm gonna try and help more! Think that'll help?? <hr></blockquote><p>I think... YOU need help!!<p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p> [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>oh wait... that's not what you asked. <tee-hee><p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p> [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

OK, one at a time here....<p>Honey, just so you know; I do A LOT of housework. I pick stuff up, wash dishes (I WISH my wife felt like you do when I do! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ), I cook once or twice a week, go to the grocery store with her EVERY TIME, I do care about the kids picking up, and they actually do most of the time...that's PRECISELY my point; WE DO ALL THIS STUFF! Sure, not always exactly when she want us to, or the exact way she wants it...but we do...that's why it's SO frustrating that she gets in such a major tizzy about it. <p>Plus, of course, I ALSO do all the guy stuff; yard, insects, dead animals that need picking up, paint, electric, cars,....shall I continue?<p>I'm sorry, Honey...after I re-read this post it sounded like I was punding on you, and that was not my intent...sorry... [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>"If you agree, call me right now; I've got a bridge for sale! It's in Brooklyn."<p>And I've got a really nice sinkhole in FL that I'd like to sell!<p>You still have the same marching orders, no matter the outcome of what all you said (and I did read it all!):<p>1) You need to make your W feel comfortable telling you personal stuff (like I do mine).
2) You need to clarify with her and SH what constitutes honesty, and what are lies of omission (like I need to do with mine).
3) You need to keep up your plan A (like I do).
4) You'll need to keep tabs on YOU, and see where you are when or if she "comes around." If you're worn out or out of love and she's still putzing around, you've passed your plan B deadline (like I will have [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>I think you're right. She hasn't really shown remorse for what she's done (and it doesn't matter much whether the A is over or not). I bet she will at some point. <p>Hang limp, SC. You're still doing fine! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: 2long ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know 2L! I'm OK, just in a very sarcastic mood today...I mean Steve's actually still going on the basis that what she's saying is true...he just kills me!<p>I'm doing fine...and I'm on plan...and will stay there...at least while the drugs are still having an effect!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>... when My h started doing the dishes... I wanted to make love... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Honey, do you think you might want to become my W's friend? Maybe you could bring her around to this kind of thinking....I'd be ETERNALLY GRATEFUL! I mean, this would mean...OK, I'll do the math later...<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
DO yall have a housekeepper.. now you know my opinion about spanish 19 yr old.. housekeepers who offer other services... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, we do...and no, she doesn't offer any additional services that I know of...you are too funny, girl! I'm sorry, but I AM glad you can have a sense of humor about this!<p>Big hug!!!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Hey SC:<p>Have you ever thought of building a full-scale replica of the Titanic out of popsicle sticks or Lego blocks?<p>I agree, you're doing very well, just don't fall into the trap of focusing too closely on the details of what happens and what's said. Stand back from time to time and cogitate on the big picture.<p>And take up some interesting hobbies to keep your mind occupied, like building steamers out of Legos... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: 2long ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I actually did start a new hobby; I'm learning to grow Bonsai trees! Have some very cute river birches I'm starting to work on...if they survive, I'll post photos! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Today was clean sheets day, whatever you call it; the day the beds get changed. So my W if doing her thing, the kids are gone, at work, pool...she calls me and asks if I'll help her with a couple of the beds, so I say "yes, I'm coming!". 2 seconds later, she's hollering about the mess in our D's room; "see, they never help with anything, always do the same thing, and then I end up having to clean up for them...." yada, yada, yada.&#8221; <p>Space, oops! This sounds just like me! She&#8217;s venting only!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know, I know...but I'm SUCH a sucker, and so entrenched in my habits...I just HAVE to try to talk sense into her...makes me NUTS!!!!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
&#8220;So I come in and start in my very best Plan A tone, "W, they're teenagers, take it easy, don't work yourself up over this stuff so much..." when suddenly, WHAM! the trap springs on the unsuspecting BS:&#8220;<p>She might have heard you saying &#8220;Messy rooms are important to you only wife. Not a priority to the rest of us in the family&#8221;.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Probably. But she knows it's not quite that bad. Most of the time we're all pretty good with this stuff...<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
"Well, we agreed that we were going to talk to them about this, didn't we?" she says. Then continues "I was waiting for you to do it after we talked about it twice, to see if you would do it" , "you never do anything around here!"<p>Hmmm. She wasn&#8217;t playing fair here.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Playing fair? Pu-leese! This was just the opener for what she REALLY wanted to do...<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
&#8220;At this point, I knew I was toast. She'd skewered me again! The last vestiges of my best Plan A behavior were rapidly dissipating as I said "What do you mean? Were you testing me?...we were both supposed to do it, we just haven't had a chance with all 3 kids here at once!"
She then goes on to say; "Well, I wanted to see if this was as important to you as it is to me, and obviously it's not."<p>A possible alternative here is &#8220;Wife you&#8217;re right; kids messy rooms aren&#8217;t as important to me as they are to you; however what is important to me is that you are upset about this, so let&#8217;s make a plan to talk with them tonight together.&#8221; Space, this could have been an opportunity to make a deposit in her LB on the domestic support EN.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>That's a good one...I'll try to file it in my caveman brain!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
&#8220;Why is it SO EASY for them to just slash away at our few remaining shreds of dignity and restraint? I totally went off: "I can't believe you set a trap for me! Why would you do that? You deliberately set out to trip me!" and I went on about how this had nothing to do with what the problem had been, how come I'm responsible for this, we need to find better ways to communicate these things with the children, etc..... &#8220;<p>Space you are absolutely right on this one!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, it's sad; this is like Boris Spassky playing chess against me....toast...burnt toast, and the first move hasn't been made yet!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
No giving up allowed!! I think this kind of situation is a reflection of the stress in the house. There is probably adjustments when college student comes home for the summer right?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not really...she is happier than a (how come I never remember these Texas sayings for this?)...VERY happy her "baby"'s in town! But yes...there's a lot of activity...3 very busy teens and their cohorts! Lots of them! All the time!! I Love it!....she say's she has 4 children when the kids are around and I'm foolin' with them!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
"So anyway, later when things had calmed down, and all the fires in my stomach had been put out, I went downstairs, hugged her, gave her a kiss, and said: "W, can I tell you something?...look, when I say these things I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm just trying to help us see that there are many things we both need to change, and that's whay I say them. And I wish you would do the same for me." she said it was OK, that she'd try to also do it, and that she understood....yeah right!" <p>Good communications here!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Finally did SOMETHING right! Yipeee!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
"OK; so what is a man to do when faced with this? How could I have handled it better? Are there just some traps we cannot avoid? Am I just dense or stupid, or hot-headed or what?
Help me out here....I keep falling unto these!"<p>No, no; you&#8217;re just annoyed that she set you up. I also think that just working on M especially where all of are; working so intensely that there is an overall air of stress in the household. Kind of like in my situation where it seems at times a hangnail is reason for panic in the streets. Overall Space, I think you did beautifully. You recovered nicely!! CSue</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You are too kind, CSue! But thanks, I guess it was better than others we've had, and I AM learning...a little!
Thanks!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>2long:
<p>I think... YOU need help!!<p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p> [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>oh wait... that's not what you asked. <tee-hee><p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p> [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Nah...he just needs drugs...doing fine! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>
And I've got a really nice sinkhole in FL that I'd like to sell!
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Why'd you have to say FL? Huh?
Your "sinkhole wouldn't just HAPPEN to be next to this prison down there, would it? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Space,<p>My head is spinning!!!! I don't know what to think! Sheesh I didn't realize the 1/2 of this. Does SH really think you're paranoid?<p>You need to spend a few more moments with SH at your next appt to find out where he thinks W is in all of this.<p>Keep us posted!!

SC:<p>The sinkhole isn't quite developed yet. It's still a large, underground cavern... ...RIGHT UNDER the prison!!!<p>I'd buy it!

Honey:<p>Did I do good?:<p>W called on her way home from out of town, stopped by Cosco to pick up foodies for dinner and stuff. I got home just before her. She's been working out in the 90+ degree heat all day for two days, and just drove 2 hours to get home, so I offered to make the dinner (just nukerowave main course and steamed veggies). She got to take a shower and go watch HGTV and relax (Sarah is almost done with that bathroom remodel!).<p>I brought her dinner on a tray so she could eat in bed. Then, when she was done, I picked up and cleaned up. Got several kissy poos and a few "thank yous" for effort!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,<p>My head is spinning!!!! I don't know what to think! Sheesh I didn't realize the 1/2 of this. Does SH really think you're paranoid?<p>You need to spend a few more moments with SH at your next appt to find out where he thinks W is in all of this.<p>Keep us posted!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>He didn't use the word paranoid, but did insinuate that perhaps the repeated lying and my "preoccupation" with all these little subtle details of my W's activities might be playing tricks on me.<p>And I will admit I've been obsessive about some of these things, although I'm getting better at not letting that affect me as much or drive me nuts like it has in the past.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>The sinkhole isn't quite developed yet. It's still a large, underground cavern... ...RIGHT UNDER the prison!!!<p>I'd buy it!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You're wlcome to it, my friend. Me? I prefer the wide open un-fenced spaces here in Texas! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Honey:<p>Did I do good?:<p>W called on her way home from out of town, stopped by Cosco to pick up foodies for dinner and stuff. I got home just before her. She's been working out in the 90+ degree heat all day for two days, and just drove 2 hours to get home, so I offered to make the dinner (just nukerowave main course and steamed veggies). She got to take a shower and go watch HGTV and relax (Sarah is almost done with that bathroom remodel!).<p>I brought her dinner on a tray so she could eat in bed. Then, when she was done, I picked up and cleaned up. Got several kissy poos and a few "thank yous" for effort!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Tell you what 2L; if you were married to Honey, you STILL would not have gotten to sleep! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Sheesh, the irony of it all!! Interesting thread here Space. I think anyone would be paranoid after what you've been through. Sounds down right healthy paranoia to me.<p>2long, what a treat for your wife. Watch out for your Taker however. What I have noticed with me is that as soon as I do a good GIVER deed; my Taker is standing back watching; foot tapping waiting for the results of the good deed.<p>I am sure however that you are too good a Plan A deliverer to fall into my trap!<p>Honey, my wish for you is the man who treats you the way you deserve to be treated.<p>You will never get that from a drinking alcoholic. My hope is that you break this cycle of craziness so that it doesn't continue to poison you and your children and your grandchildren and so on, and so on...<p>What a beautiful thing to be able to look back on years down the road. Happy, peaceful, joyful life you have made for your children and yourself. You can't save him, you can only save yourself. OK, lecture over!!!!<p>Space, I think it's wonderful that you enjoy your teenagers so much. I'll bet your house is a happy place for the kids to gather. The ultimate compliment! CSue

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Sheesh, the irony of it all!! Interesting thread here Space. I think anyone would be paranoid after what you've been through. Sounds down right healthy paranoia to me.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, I'm just realistic. Not paranoid or or obsessed (anymore!). Reality is all we have; any wishful thinking on my part is a delusion. I do admit that I'm much more cynical after going thru this, and I wish that weren't so.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2long, what a treat for your wife. Watch out for your Taker however. What I have noticed with me is that as soon as I do a good GIVER deed; my Taker is standing back watching; foot tapping waiting for the results of the good deed.<p>I am sure however that you are too good a Plan A deliverer to fall into my trap!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is VERY good advice. I've had a lot of trouble with this myself. It has to be a conscious decision to keep repeating to yourself: "Don't expect anything, don't expect anything..." Because the natural tendency is to expect SOMETHING in return. Don't feel bad CSue...we all do it...even the good Plan Aers.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Honey, my wish for you is the man who treats you the way you deserve to be treated.<p>You will never get that from a drinking alcoholic. My hope is that you break this cycle of craziness so that it doesn't continue to poison you and your children and your grandchildren and so on, and so on...<p>What a beautiful thing to be able to look back on years down the road. Happy, peaceful, joyful life you have made for your children and yourself. You can't save him, you can only save yourself. OK, lecture over!!!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is everyone's wish for Honey!!!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Space, I think it's wonderful that you enjoy your teenagers so much. I'll bet your house is a happy place for the kids to gather. The ultimate compliment! CSue </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Nothing gives me greater pleasure than to see them do the stuff I did (OK, not ALL the stuff I did) and just be able to laugh and enjoy it! They are an absolute blast! My W frowns on some of this, but I'm totally un-uptight about teen-age antics!<p>And yes; our house IS a safe haven for our kids AND all their friends. It means we sometimes have to deal with a drunk kid or two, and sometimes waking up to find 4-5 kids sleeping all over the place, but it's worth it!<p>I'll never forget one morning; I'm sitting at the kitchen table having coffee, reading the paper in my robe, and one of the kids' friends suddenly walks in, says "Hi Mr. K!", walks into the kitchen, opens the pantry, retrieves his beer stash, says "Bye Mr. K", and walks out again with the case under his arm!<p>It was a bit of a stunner, but that's part of the price to be paid for the type of relationship we've built with our children...I'll take it any day in exchange for what we get from them; honesty, openess, and the ability to talk to us about anything, anytime. No secrets there. No hang-ups.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spacecase:
[QB]<p>Nothing gives me greater pleasure than to see them do the stuff I did (OK, not ALL the stuff I did) and just be able to laugh and enjoy it! They are an absolute blast! My W frowns on some of this, but I'm totally un-uptight about teen-age antics!<p>And yes; our house IS a safe haven for our kids AND all their friends. It means we sometimes have to deal with a drunk kid or two, and sometimes waking up to find 4-5 kids sleeping all over the place, but it's worth it!<p>I'll never forget one morning; I'm sitting at the kitchen table having coffee, reading the paper in my robe, and one of the kids' friends suddenly walks in, says "Hi Mr. K!", walks into the kitchen, opens the pantry, retrieves his beer stash, says "Bye Mr. K", and walks out again with the case under his arm!<p>It was a bit of a stunner, but that's part of the price to be paid for the type of relationship we've built with our children...I'll take it any day in exchange for what we get from them; honesty, openess, and the ability to talk to us about anything, anytime. No secrets there. No hang-ups.<p>Space, this is exactly the kind of relationship I want to have with my boys. Life tosses so much at them now days. I don't ever want my boys to ever feel they can't come to us about ANYTHING.<p>Mine are much younger than yours; but we've had 2 situations where babysitters/day care providers (with great references no less!!) have mistreated our boys. Thankfully it all came out. Took them some time to not have nightmares but all is well. The teenage years YIKES!!!! I'll have to work up some more courage before that happens. Especially knowing what I got away with!!<p>Hope you have a great Father's Day. How neat you have them all home!! CSue

Thanks CSue!
It IS great to have them all home. But yours too; 7 and 9 are great ages!

SC:<p>"I'll never forget one morning; I'm sitting at the kitchen table having coffee, reading the paper in my robe, and one of the kids' friends suddenly walks in, says "Hi Mr. K!", walks into the kitchen, opens the pantry, retrieves his beer stash, says "Bye Mr. K", and walks out again with the case under his arm!"<p>Isn't beer considered a soft drink in Baja O?<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>"I'll never forget one morning; I'm sitting at the kitchen table having coffee, reading the paper in my robe, and one of the kids' friends suddenly walks in, says "Hi Mr. K!", walks into the kitchen, opens the pantry, retrieves his beer stash, says "Bye Mr. K", and walks out again with the case under his arm!"<p>Isn't beer considered a soft drink in Baja O?<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Pretty much...I'm sorry to admit! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]