He looked like a scared little rabbit this afternoon. Quite pitiful actually. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] He was at it again, checking out porn sites on the net. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I had been lying down in bed, and got up to go upstairs. H was on the computer in our basement rec-room, and that's when I saw it. Nudie pics on the pc screen. I shook my head, and calmly told him, "That's it", as I headed upstairs.<p>I got the kids up from their naps, and once they were settled will full cups of juice and snacks, I came back downstairs to talk to H. As calmly as I could (which I was, which I'm still amazed at!), I told him that he has crossed my boundaries yet again, and that I will not tolerate it any longer. I explained to him (again!) how much it hurts me when he visits those sites. And I tried to tell him about how I believe that he was doing this behind my back thinking "what she doesn't know won't hurt her"... and that he's wrong. I asked him to use his next few EI cheques to pay for his 1st and last on a place.<p>As I told H, I don't know what it is that he can do anymore to prove to me that he is no longer into the porn sites. I have my own doubts that even professional counselling would work for him. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Although H and I need to talk it out more, my plan is to have him move out for the first weekend of June. I don't want to fly off the handle like I did back in Feb 2001. I do want to give him a good chance to find a place. After all, I still care about what happens to him. I just don't care to be around him for now. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I know I cannot change what I have said to him. And I don't feel that I acted out on my emotions at all. We have been through this porn thing numerous times, and he has made the choice to NOT do anything about his addiction. I know he's not taking me seriously either. I could tell by his conversations with me shortly after I confronted him (talking about future plans of building a train set in 'our' basement - the 3yr old is in love with Thomas the tank engine and friends).<p>I should have come straight on here after H was off of the computer. As usual, I put my kids' needs first, and didn't keep my mouth shut long enough. But I'd like to think that for those of you who are familiar enough with my story, that you would agree with me that "enough is enough".<p>For those that aren't familiar with my story, let me assure you, that these problems are a direct result of me NOT setting my boundaries clearly enough upon reconciliation. I jumped into it too soon.<p>Any advice, comments, or flames would be most appreciated.<p>Karen

Hi Karen. I'm not familiar with your entire story but I understand that you have reached your limit. I wish I had some advice but all I can offer are long distance hugs and I'll keep you in my prayers. Be strong.

I'm sorry Topie.<p>June seems a long way off.<p>If he changes his behaviors during that time, you can always reconsider. Or let him move and if he would ever be sincere about changing his behavior, he can do it while separated as well. It's even more convincing done when he's not needing to hide, but chooses to not do porn.<p>My H moved into his own house about 6 weeks before we reconciled this last time & had his house for 3 more months afterwards.

Karen - I'm so sorry to hear about this continuation. I can't find fault in how you reacted.<p>I do believe this is a sickness. Take it from this guy - few guys enjoy that stuff. Yep, I've peeked, but I just cannot imagine more than 10 or 15 seconds of that crap.<p>Be strong for your kids.<p>Dave

TD: Thanks for the hugs! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lor(Lor): You're one who has definitely learned about cementing those boundaries before true reconciliation can occur. You're right, June is a long way off (6 weeks from now). H and I have been hashing this out for a few months now, and no changes yet. Sadly, I don't see much hope for him in 6 weeks.<p>WAT: I hope you're right in that most men aren't into that crap. I can see it with teens and curiosity... but adult men with a W and kids - nuh-uh. There's no reason for it, IMO. Thank you for not seeing much fault in my reaction to H. I'm quite proud of myself. I've obviously learned SOMETHING from here [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>He started pulling out his excuses, which I chose to ignore. He said, "I suppose it doesn't matter to you that I've been TRYING for the past while?" (I can't remember if he said weeks or months). I said, "Nope. You're right. You've lied to me. You're doing this behind my back. You know how it makes me feel. And I've had enough.".<p>The lies are the worst part of it. Granted, I haven't come out and flatly asked him, "Are you visiting porn sites" in the last couple of weeks - but come on! I shouldn't have to ask him constantly - not about something like that. And it's not as though this is a big surprise for him either - after all, we had it out a few months ago over this same issue. And it was at THAT time, I told him that that was his final chance to make good of himself. If he went back to the porn, it would be over between us for now.<p>It feels really good to vent this out on here. I"m starting to get the urge to go upstairs and give H a piece of my mind. But I also know that won't solve anything. I'm just trying to resign my status as the Queen LBer. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

tough place topie, did you not install tracking software on comp? This shouldn't have been a surprise....all I can say is my usual, life does not begin or end with ones marriage, it either has to work (be a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place) or not, and end it as amicably as possible if not....what effect that has on your H is up to him, sometimes you have to totally lose out to reach the motivation you need to choose different behaviour, tough on you, as you may have moved on by then, but that is how life works. If he attempts manipulation (as he will) make it clear if you accept it, he is under 24/7 surveillance, and put into place everything you need to insure that....and require he practice all the MB stuff, and no love busting...frankly I don't think you have a keeper, but that was his choice, you will be fine if you want to be....him, well that is questionable, but it is up to him, you cannot, nor should you, fix him.

oh yeah, ditto to wat, many men do not need or want porn, and it is a perfectly acceptable boundary for you to set and expect...nor was your reaction unreasonable.

SNL: Hmmm.. the tracking software thing, well, I have never considered that to be an option. Mainly because H is so much into programming and doing computer 'stuff', that either he'd find it, or it would disappear when a different hard drive was put in the cpu!!! You're right that it isn't much of a surprise. That's probably why I was able to react so calmly. It's sad (to me) that I no longer have much faith in his actions. And I do know that I cannot fix him. If he can see that fixing is required, he's the only one who can use the tools to do it. I've got the tools. I've been using them on myself. I've offerred them to him. That's all I can do.<p>Karen

Hi Karen,<p>Sorry to hear about the latest discovery. This porn addiction is like any other, the addict has to want to quit and no one and nothng can make them, except themselves.<p>What I'm most concerned with is you and the kids. If you wait until June it's likely he won't be moving out. In a month things and feelings can change plenty. If he doesn't move I don't know if that's good or bad at this point. <p>Have you ever talked to Bernzini? Berni has been there and back with this porn issue. Perhaps she'll show to offer advice and support. I certainly hope so.<p>I'm so sorry, Karen. After seeing your very wonderful family pics I really feel for you and kids.<p>Prayers,
Jo<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong> If you wait until June it's likely he won't be moving out. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Do you really think that is the case? I'm only trying to be fair to him, and give him the chance to get some money together for a new place. I know why that is, and it's because I didn't allow him to do that last year after we had agreed upon it.<p>I've already offerred to help him with his packing, and to find a place too.<p>But as I said, I don't think he is taking me seriously - and strangely enough, I don't think he's taking me seriously because I'm CALM!!! <p>I also know that if I set my mind to it, I can detatch from him in the next 6 weeks. I know all too well (now) on what I need to do - and that includes emotional divorcing en route to plan B.<p>I'm still focusing on me again. I even explained to H just over one month ago (when I started taking Celexa) that I was 'plan A'd out', and that I'd be focusing more on me than him for a little while, because I have put me off for too long.<p>Resilient, how would you deal with this if you were in my shoes? (and that question goes out to everyone reading this too.).<p>Karen

How would I deal with it?<p>I'd be just as disgusted and fed up as you, Hon. I keep thinking about that Dr. Phil segment that is quite similar to your story.<p>The H didn't take his W seriously that it very well might mean their marriage if he didn't get help and quit the porn.<p>Not until H was on National TV being confronted by a leading high profile Therapist did he realize he was not only addicted but in denial regarding his addiction.<p>I can imagine that he and his W are still struggling with the addiction altho I did see that they have made some strides in he admitting it was an addiction. I think that's the first step, admitting you have a problem. Until then, everything you do is academic, IMVHO.<p>Jo<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I remember watching that on Oprah. I even asked H to watch it with me!!! He obviously didn't get it. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (I only asked H to watch the 10 minutes that couple was on - not the full one hour program - maybe THAT was my mistake? Lol).<p>It's strangely comforting to know that I'm not the only one who's getting fed up with my H.<p>Karen

Karen,<p>I validate you as well. I think you should stay on course and maintain your quiet calm. He will have to adjust to the new you. I do believe, though, that he will either try to manipulate the outcome as SnL suspects or he may sincerely face his problem. Either way, start now to prepare your response and be ready for that.<p>Decide within yourself: If he REALLY gave it up for good, do I want to remain married to him? What would that look like? How could I know? What would have to be in place for me to risk the roller coaster again?<p>Get it all clear in your mind first so that you will be able to lay it all out on table for him when he begs for another chance, which I think is inevitable.

You know what I think? I will totally get hit with the flamethrower for this, but I think that you should stick to your guns over what you said: "Either the porn or me, and I guess it's the porn, so hit the road."<p>You know why I say this? Sometimes it's only the reality of life and hitting rock bottom that scares the bejeezus out of someone and motivates them to change. Talking yourself blue the face has no effect on some people. Without you in his life, he will realize his priorities. Maybe not suddenly, but he will start to understand the harm of what he does and how it makes you feel.<p>Some people swear there is nothing wrong with porn, and you should come to an agreement over it and tolerate it, ie, look at it together, or allow only some things to be viewed, ect. I think that it is very wrong, and very harmful. I guess I won't get into all of that here, you have all heard it from me before. But Topie, if it's something that really hurts you, and your husband will not stop, he is not protecting you. He is harming you willfully. He is being dishonest with you.<p>Yes, it is an addiction, like overeating, alcoholism, drug use, even just smoking. Anything that you have to do secretly, without your family knowing, proves that is an addictive behavior. While I have never suffered this particular addiction, I know that repeated addictive behavior is so hard to break--it's like an instant reflex after a while. You can't just "stop."<p>I think that this is where tough love comes into play. The more that you tolerate and accept this behavior, the more it will occur. I think that it would be harmful, in this particular behavior, to allow it to become an "ok thing," where you allow your husband to openly pursue his passion.<p>My husband, as soon as we bought our first PC in 95, started looking at "nekked girls," as he called it, as soon as he found the "joy" of internet surfing (kind of a waste of time to me, but hey.) Every time I found a nudie pic on the screen or in the documents log, I would chew him out. It wasn't a big deal. I just told him to cut it out, wasn't I good enough for him? (I WAS pretty hot back then [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) One day, I went all over town looking for a printer cartridge for his dumb printer, already obsolete, as technology goes, and finally found one. I lovingly presented him with the cartridge and went and did my thing for a while. I returned to the livingroom to find a really nasty lesbian sex-act depiction popping out of the printer. I hollered "Why are you printing that?" His reply: "Well, I wanted to test the colors, and this picture had all the colors in it." (Duh!) That earned him the silent treatment for the afternoon. He begged forgiveness. But then, I guess the only lesson he learned was that I was just plain not going to go along with his little hobby, and he took it underground.<p>I moved to WA state in a permanent change of station move with the army, and I left my husband behind, expecting him to move with me in a couple of months. That's another story. But anyway, in my absence, he was free to pursue his visual gratification, and that he did. <p>Not only was he into relatively harmless chat rooms, but he learned that you could combine the two pleasures into one. You could meet pretty girls on line, look at their bodies AND talk to them. You could talk about sex with them. You could talk about things that you wouldn't talk about with your wife. You could talk about sex acts that you had never dared try in real life. In the absence of your wife, you could masturbate while looking and talking. And you could also talk about meeting them in real life and continue the conversation in person, which he ultimately did in the end.<p>To me, it's like digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. You get away with one thing, and then the next thing seems a little more attractive and not that big a deal. At first, it's just a fun little "thing" that you do. A little "pleasurable diversion" turns into a desperate driving need to fulfull yourself in the only way you have left after destroying everything else in your life. That's how a serious, intelligent man like my husband became a pervert.<p>This is how he met the "love of his life," the notorious Miss Kitty. Only with her, she was in a struggling marriage, and she became dependant on him as well, for HER emotional needs. And doggone it, they were only two hours away from each other, just perfect. So close, yet far away enough to hide their meetings from her husband.<p>Well, after the Kitty situation burned itself out, and d-day came and went, and then I left him, the only comfort he had was. . .you guessed it: the thing that had gotten him into trouble in the first place.<p>He asked me to come back, and I did. But he wasn't through with his hobby. Far from it. One day, after he went to work, I got onto his computer and did some searches. I was so sickened by what I saw. He had moved on from just nekked pictures, to things so nasty, I don't even want to talk about them. He had mostly movies depicting these things. It was clear that his fetish was for obese women (huh?) and certain sex acts that have to do with body waste and places that they are excreted from. We are talking about the man that I was supposed to love and share my life with.<p>All the searches that he had done were searches for porn sites. All the cookies that he had on his temp internet files were for porn sites. And for swinger sites. What was especially disturbing was that he had a microphone and a webcam set up while I was gone. Yes, he had begged for me to come back, but none of those cookies included marriage counseling sites.<p>I told him that I was going to go back to the US, back home. I was sick and disgusted--funny me, I figured that after what we had been through, he had learned his lesson. He begged me to change my mind, saying that he would stop it. <p>Oh, but then he just tried a lot harder to hide his hobby from me. He thought he was being tricky. He tried to install a keystroke recorder on the PC to see if I had been on there, doing searches, so that he could change his passwords and erase the temp internet file, ect. Boy that was dumb. I quickly learned how to access it, and I found all his passwords. I found one enlightening conversation with someone named "Big Girl Wears a Thong," in which my husband claimed he was going through a divorce, so he was separated, and boy, was "Big Girl" pretty and sexy, ect. On and on. I took a hard copy of this little conversation to the Air Force counselor that I was seeing for help (alone, obviously.) CPT Stevens told me that I had three choices--1) tolerate it and be miserable 2) leave him for good 3) go to his command with evidence and thus, subject my husband to disciplinary action that could destroy his career. <p>I wanted none of these choices. None of these options were OK for me. I was perplexed.<p>After about the jillionth time I had caught him, he promised me that he would stop. We were cool for a while. I thought that we were doing well, the marriage was looking up. I never stopped looking at his PC, however. I did not find anything ever again, so I figured that my husband was done with this crap for good. I was satisfied, but cautious.<p>One day, he told me to go ahead and take our son to baseball practice, since I had the day off (he usually took him) because he had some paperwork to do at home. I was glad to oblige, heck, I wanted to do something nice for my dear husband and give him some precious time to himself. <p>Well, when we came back from baseball practice, I immediatly knew something was up as the front door was locked. I knew it was like a momentary diversion--I unlocked the door, but my husband was not quick enough in shutting down the file he had open. He was so enraptured in what he was looking at that his reflexes had slowed down. He was looking at someone's fat naked stuff.<p>I lost it--it was hilarious how he stood there with the deer-in-the-headlights look, and he tried to lie! No, he wasn't on the internet, he swore (half truth, he had downloaded something from the internet and was looking at it off-line.) No, he wasn't looking at personal pictures that he saved on his computer (no, he had gotten smart! He gone surfing while alone in hotel rooms with his laptop during his business trips and saved it all on floppy disks for later use.) He lied and lied, right there while I had visual proof of what was really going on. We had a big fight as I grabbed the laptop and tried to run off with it--he grabbed the screen part of it and we busted it in half. The kid was sitting there, crying and watching the whole thing. I ordered my husband to pack up his stupid little computer and get out of the house. He did. He came back about 15 minutes later, crying, and asked if there was anything else he could say that would get me to change my mind. I told him it was too late and he would be sleeping in his office until I could move off island. He stuffed a few clothes into his gym bag and left.<p>He slept in his office for about a week, while I went to family services for help on how to get off the island and go back home. I told them what was going on in detail.<p>This is what scared me. My husband is a military officer. He works in a highly classified occupation--yes, like James Bond. After he was appointed to his position, he stopped the physical part of his affair with Miss Kitty, but he didn't stop IM'ing her. And he didn't stop the porn. When I told them what was going on, they told me that this constituted serious abuse and that he would be ordered into mandatory counseling--I just had to say the word and they would do up the paperwork. This meant that my husband would hate me forever, because his job is everything to him, I would say it is as important to him as his family, almost. He loves and serves his country passionately and he is a hardcore Marine. This private little passion of his would cost him everything in life--family AND job.<p>I was in a tough dilema. This is what I did. I mustered up some courage, then I sat him down and told him what I had done and who I had talked to. He was enraged, of course. I just let him be mad at me--he had brought this onto himself, and of course, he was blaming me for it. But like I said, I just let him be mad and hate me for a while. At the time, I was not trying to suck up to him, Plan A or whatever you call it. To heck with that. This is reality. It was not about treating him with kid gloves and smothing him with affection in spite of what he had done.<p>You know, I am sure it got him thinking long and hard about what he was doing. He didn't stay mad at me for too long, I was really suprised. I guess being able to come home to his family was better than staying angry. He came home, but wasn't in the mood for talking.<p>A couple months went by and I did in fact find one more disk, this time a CD-rom that was hidden in a music CD case. That was the night of the Marine Corps ball--he came running home all happy and stuff, put a big show into getting his dress blues ready. Me, I did the silent treatment. I slipped into the bathroom and donned a pair of sexy jeans and put on a lot of makeup. You know, the Marine Corps ball is a big deal--around November, there are a lot of grown women acting like little girls playing dress up, so it broke my heart. But I was mad.<p>When I came out and told him to go on ahead, I was going to go to the club (we already had the babysitter reserved) he was shocked. I told him that he had better ask one of the women featured on his secret CD-rom to go with him, and find her a size 22 dress. <p>You know what? Instead of freaking out, (for once) yelling, screaming, and lying, he sat me down and started talking to me. HE did the talking--I didn't have to prompt him, plead with him, or argue with him. He told me that the CD was one that he had had for a while and forgot to destroy. (Yeah, right.) But for some reason, I believed him, because he went on to tell me about his problems, some of the things that he was thinking and feeling about his addiction, his fears, some of the things that lead him to do what he did. He told me that he loved me and he asked me repeatedly to go get my ball gown on and come with him--I refused over and over again because I am a big pouter--but in the end, I did. It was like magic--finally, he was changing and something had clicked in him.<p>He held my hand all night, and was very romantic towards me. Granted, we had to hang out with his
"dudes" and talk about man things that I had no clue about while they smoked cigars. But I had fun, and felt a surge of love towards my husband.<p>This is the turning point that helped me realize that my marriage had finally gotten on track. We have been doing well ever since, and there has been no porn.<p>I think that if I had not stood my ground and let him know that I was serious about it, we would not be together now. Sometimes this is what it takes--stand up for yourself and what's right.

Thank you soooooooo much for your help, Berni.<p>Love you Hon.<p>Jo

Bernzini: Wow! Thank you so much for your story. I really do appreciate the time and effort it took you to share that with me (and anyone else reading this thread of course! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>I'm figuring on sticking to my guns too. I'm not so sure if it's tough love or not, but I do know that it's definitely not a plan A or B. I'm just tired of doing the leading to fix this M of ours. He needs to be the one to put some effort into it.<p>He says he has a very bad feeling about him leaving... that if he leaves, he won't be coming back. When I asked him 'who' it was that wasn't letting (?) him come back, he said he didn't know.<p>He has closed off his thoughts and emotions from me again. He is assuming that I am asking him to leave and will never take him back. I don't know how else I can explain to him that that's not the case. That HE is the one who needs to work on our M. That HE is the one who needs to figure it all out now. As I mentioned before, we've got the tools.. all we have to do is use them.<p>So, in your case B, your H was only out of the house for one week? Am I reading that correctly? And the fact that you asked him to leave immediately is giving me doubts on my decision to wait until June 1st. Hmmmm.... but I am not about to go back on my words in this issue.<p>Had you asked your H to open up to you like that before he did? Was that something you were requesting from him to fulfil your ENs or for closure? My reason for asking, is because I would love to hear those same things from my H. I certainly didn't get "but I love you" from him today (although I did tell him that). And I don't want to tell him exactly what it is I need to hear from him, because I don't believe that he'll say it from his heart. I believe that he would only say those things to pacify me. I hope I'm making some sense here.<p>B, I really do want to thank you for all of your help so far, so, THANK YOU! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

dear topie-so sorry for your problems. i do think bernzini is right though. sometimes you just have to put it all out there. i did this weekend-shocked the bejeebies out of my husband. read my post-dont want to highjack yours. now its all on the table for him-what he does with it is up to him. but he knows what i will and will not accept any longer.<p>all my prayers to you and the kids, and a special prayer for your hubby to wake up.

Well, he was out of the house for one week, PLUS I went to family advocacy about getting off the island and going home (besides the fact that they would contact his command about what was going on, which would ruin his future.) I think that got his attention that I wasn't fooling around. I had a little extra leverage, an ace up my sleeve. It sounds terrible that I threatened with a negative consequence like that. It really does. I often wonder what would come of things if the situation was different, if my husband didn't have the job he does and if we lived somewhere else. I don't know.<p>There is no porn now, I am pretty sure of it. But we still have a little of the effects of the affair floating around. He will not talk about it. He is in WA DC right now on a business trip and Miss Kitty is an hour away from him. He got angry with me for posing the question "Are you going to see her?" I guess he felt that was a stupid inquiry--I felt that it was quite valid. OK, stupid, but valid. I am supposed to show that I trust him, right? (But I don't completely)<p>I wonder what he will think about after seeing good ol Motel 6, and all the bars that served as rally points during the affair--their territory. Will it make him sad about the chain of events in our life together, or will it make him reminiscent of the times he spent with her? A big part of me really wants him to feel like crap when he sees their old haunts again.<p>Well, anyways, he'll be back Thursday, we'll see.

I was going to ask you if you had checked out any books on the subject--do a search on Amazon.com about pornography. There are some promising titles about it. It seems that you husband feels penitent enough and wants to change, but he just can't make that leap. The idea of going to counseling about this, I imagine, is humiliating for him. <p>Ask him if he would consider reading about the problem as a first step while you think about the June date. It might open his eyes. If the two of you study up on it, it might help.<p>As for my husband, he would tell me to put any book on psycobabble where the sun don't shine, but your husband sounds a bit different in mine as he at least identifies that he has a problem. (My hubby has no problems--he's the man, or so he thinks.)

Karen,<p>I just read the 1st post so if anything has changed I don't know.<p>I just wanted you to know I was thinking about you. <p>I'll try & read again today but it maybe Wednesday.<p>Take care of yourself & your boys.<p>I remember those Thomas the Tank days, my YS LOVED him for 3 or 4 yrs.