Desert,<p>Your point has been backed up by many WS here who have expressed their regret that they didn't come clean immediately with everything. They, too, acknowledge that the holding back impeded recovery and that things would have been easier and come farther sooner if they had been completely open and forthcoming from the very beginning. So, even from the perspective of the comfort level of the WS, it is better to lance the wound and get ALL the pus out right away, then the healing can truly begin.

I have to put my 2 cents in here;
Disclosure is very, very critical. As I see my situation, and many of you have also followed or contributed to that, if there had been disclosure sometime near d-day, half the problems we're facing now would not exist!<p>Now, because of the lies, my snooping and recording to uncover the lies, the confrontation with the proof, the new methods to keep it hidden, etc. are the greatest hurdle my WW and I are facing in even being able to start moving forward!<p>Thos things have caused so much grief and LBs that both of us have hardened our positions and have made it harder to move on.
Disclosure is GOOD!!!!

Space, <p>Have you told her this, is she still in the fog?<p>I've done some of the snooping thing too, but she gets more adept and the snooping gets worse, so I quit. Fortunately W still shows guilt on her face and actions, so I can still see when something has happened, she won't talk, but I can see it. Drives me crazy, what do to? I started another thread on Disclosure, why its important.<p>Conan, <p>Your last post is encouraging and also enlighting.
When I read about you talking with the both of them, ref 3-way call, what came to mind was a parent scholding the kids. Perhaps its time for some strongere extraordinary actions as suggested by Dr. H What do you think? Moving out of state, getting very far away if you can (having just recently started posting I don't know too much about your situation)<p>I tough love needed?<p>As we know, plan a is good to keep us feeling good about ourselves and our actions toward everyone else, and to realize we are not sheep or dormatts, even as we move into plan b (you know, I think I'm talking to myself here too!) <p>All this to say, try not to go down the research/snoopping path, unless your ready for plan B. I've found the less you actively look the more will show itself to you. (this may just be my situation)<p>Stay strong, and clear about your goals and if the "Kids" don't want to stop playing well [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ..you will be the better for having been the better.. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care....DRS

All:<p>This talk about unmet needs, susceptibility to As ourselves, early disclosure, and all has me thinking about my sitch again. <p>Since H&O is my topmost EN, I really think I would have a hard time being sucked into an A myself. But Conqueror makes a good point. My W "was" high in integrity before this all started, and was pretty torn up when she succumbed initially (after drinking too much), but she didn't tell me anything about it, so it went on, sporadically for the past 11 years. So, I've thought a lot about my "opportunities" and realize that there are probably a half dozen occasions I can think of that I either fantasized about an "encounter" or that there was someone that actually might have been interested in me in that way, but I never did anything about it, probably because I thought I wouldn't be able to face myself if I did. I'd really like to think that, even if things go sour in our M NOW, that I wouldn't be even as likely to give in to an A myself than I was before D-day, but I guess I can't know for sure. <p>I agree about early disclosure. I would have a much easier time trusting and respecting my W if SHE had told ME, not that I found out by accident. <p>Then there is now. My W and I are getting along great, but it's pretty superficial most of the time. She believes the 15hrs/wk of undivided attention is way too much to be practical, and I guess I agree, but much more than the 1 or 2 hours we DO have is needed. AT some level, I think I need to give her the chance to talk with her IC more (our MC urged her to ask her IC why she doesn't want to let go of OM). <p>She really needs to think about the "anti-M" (with apologies to the Wizard of Oz [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) statements she's made to me during her A and particularly since D-day. If she's "not cut out for M" or if "M isn't right for her" then I will want out. I don't think that's what those statements mean, because I truly believe they're her fog latin talking, but we really do need to figure out what the root bases are for them. They really hurt me a lot, and they've got to stop and be understood if I'm going to go on.<p>But things, even the SF, have been awesome since Tuesday's meeting with the MC, when she was told she needs to commit to only one R, and think about why she wants to keep OM in wings. <p>regards to all.