My WH and I went to a marriage conference and they listed 5 types of affairs. You might be surprised!<p>1. Activities affair<p>2. Materialism affair<p>3. Career affair<p>4. Family affair<p>5. Love affair<p>If you are the BS, I'm assuming #5 doesn't apply. Look at the others. Are you guilty? They defined an extramarital affair as an escape from reality or a search for fulfillment outside the marriage.<p>So did you have one of the above affairs either during your WS's affair or before?<p>I'll admit, I had more than one of them. I had a career affair, and when it fell through and was unsatisfying, I had an activities affair. I let church activities take me away from my husband 2-3 nights a week or more. No these affairs do not cause the same level of betrayal that a love affair does, but can we agree that they hurt the marriage just as much in the long run?

Family affair here...I devoted all of my time, energy, effort, love, etc to my little boy...WH says he felt replaced, unimportant, like I had gotton out of him what I wanted (sperm donor) and tossed him aside. Though his view is extreme, I can easily see how he felt that way. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Though he could've communicated that to me at any time insted of having a sexualized EMA

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamup:
<strong> No these affairs do not cause the same level of betrayal that a love affair does, but can we agree that they hurt the marriage just as much in the long run?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>In a word: No.<p>My H did 1 through 4 (which I would never call affairs, but rather out-of-order priorities) before he went on to 5, and 5 by far trumps 1, 2, 3, and 4 put together.<p>You cannot create an affair-type bond with an activity, career, material things, or your family (unless you commit incest). You may be obsessed, addicted, or other such characterizations, but none of those is any legitimate comparison to being replaced by a flesh-and-blood person.<p>In fact, I need two words to disgree emphatically enough: HE\\ NO!<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I'm with Conqueror on this one. None of these "affairs" compare to infidelity - emotional or physical.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>but can we agree that they hurt the marriage just as much in the long run?<hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely not. Nothing hurts a marriage, or a human being, anywhere near as much as infidelity. One partner could work a 120 hour week and it wouldn't come close. <p>I would also dispute the existence of a "family affair." (and btw, this has never been one of my H's complaints). Both parents are part of the family - it is not a competition between children and parents. A parent should no more complain that he or she isn't getting as much attention as little Joey than he or she should complain that his Christmas present wasn't as big or exciting, or that Joey got a bigger bowl of ice cream. Once you have children, you are part of a family, not merely individuals coexisting in the same house. It is inconceivable to me that a parent could accuse the other of spending "too much" time with the children. Why aren't both parents spending time with the children, together or separately?<p>[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]<p>[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamup:
No these affairs do not cause the same level of betrayal that a love affair does, but can we agree that they hurt the marriage just as much in the long run?<hr></blockquote><p>Hi Jamup,<p>I agree with Conqueror on this one. There is no way #'s 1 - 4 (even collectively) could in any way meet the same level or degree of hurt and devistation that learning of an EA or EA/PA do. <p>In several relationship books they equate the discovery of one's spouse having an A to the equivilent of devistation of the death of their spouse. In addition, people have comitted suicide over discovery of their spouse having an A (EA/PA). <p>IMHO, these other types of A's cannot come anywhere near equal on the "Betrayal" scales. JMVHO.<p>Jo<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

One other thing, Jamup.<p>The #'s 1-4 affairs, those are all the "activities" that a spouse is filling their time with instead of meeting their spouse's ENs.<p>This marriage conference's take on affairs 1-4 are just another way of saying spouse's are not meeting one another's emotional needs because they're pre-occupied with 1 - 4, maybe an escape, maybe not .... but regardless ... these so called "affairs" are not in the same category or even in the same hemisphere as an EA/PA. <p>Jo<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TinyDancer:
<strong>I'm with Conqueror on this one. None of these "affairs" compare to infidelity - emotional or physical.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Same here. And I didn't have any of them anyway.

Probably a Career affair; but I disagree that this had, or could have, the emotional impact of an A. For one, there's no fog involved, no deception either.

OK, so everyone jump on me and beat me up at once. <p>My outlook, had I been tending to my marriage and not my career and outside activities, I might not have ever had to deal with #5. That's how 1 - 4 hurt MY marriage.<p>Can't speak for yours. That's why I'm asking.

This is interesting. I had #3, career priorities, but all of those first 4 lack the betrayal and dishonesty of #5. If she would listen, I could use this thread to explain the difference to my wife. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Maybe it's partially a matter of word choice. "Affair" sounds kind of light-hearted, especially embedded in that list of 5 items. I think "infidelity" says it better. <p>- Tom

I think its a really interesting concept Jamup.<p>I don't think anyone is disputing that #5 is the most painful, Conqueror. <p>But there is pain involved in the others as well.
I felt pain when my H choose softball over his family night after night. <p>And it is a matter of priority. But absolutely my H's obsessions with other things deteriorated our marriage.

I'm guessing jamup's point - what she is bringing us from the conference - is similar to the Harley principles - of unmet needs. <p>These "affairs" are just a different way of describing (categorizing) the way we have all focused too much on things in life besides meeting our spouse's needs.<p>I'd have to say mine was sortof materialism/career. But we both had goals, mutual goals we were pushing for. Which shouldn't be bad - but probably was higher in the priorities than it should have been.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamup:
OK, so everyone jump on me and beat me up at once.<hr></blockquote><p>Sorry, Jam. Didn't mean to be hard on you in any way. <p>Lv,
Jo<p>[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> This marriage conference's take on affairs 1-4 are just another way of saying spouse's are not meeting one another's emotional needs because they're pre-occupied with 1 - 4, maybe an escape <hr></blockquote><p>The conference was very geared toward meeting emotional needs although they never really called them that. It was not a conference to address infidelity. It was a conference to teach you how to reach oneness in your relationship instead of isolationism. Just another way of saying the same things Marriage Builders says.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Nothing hurts a marriage, or a human being, anywhere near as much as infidelity. <hr></blockquote><p>I agree with the part about nothing hurting a human being as much as infidelity - Believe me, I'm the BS in my relationship. However I believe 1-4 are just as detrimental to the relationship. In one way because we don't realize they are taking us from our spouse and therefore never "end" them. If my WH had never done #5, we'd still be wrapped up in a miserable marriage. With 1 - 4, we never realized there was a serious problem in our marriage. With #5, we were forced to see the problems, address them, and have a better marriage now than we've had in years. YES, I HURT. But just as the Harley's say, you have to realize why the love affair takes place and correct it. The love affair may be one spouse's way of escaping the problems in the marriage (filling ENs), where as the other spouse may submerge themselves in a career to escape the problems in the marriage (filling ENs that way).<p>Regardless, all 5 hurt your marriage. If you are involved in 1-4, maybe it's time to do something about it. <p>And for BSs in pain, (remember I'm one of you), a truely remorseful WS has pain too. Yes, it's different, but pain is pain. Of the 5 above, #5 is the one that hurts individuals psyche the most by far.<p>[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: jamup ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamup:
<strong>However I believe 1-4 are just as detrimental to the relationship.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think everyone here agrees that misplaced priorities contribute to the deterioration of a M, but the statement above is the type I will always have a quarrel with. Leave out "just as", and I'd be able to agree with you, but what a difference two little words make!<p>My original offense was not so much with you, jamup, as with the purveyors of the conference you attended. Did you equate these marital issues before the conference? Or did they do a guilt trip on you about it?<p>Personally, I would not have been able to sit through such a minimization of the effects of infidelity, and I think it is very irresponsible for people setting themselves up as experts to give that kind of carte blanche to a dissatisfied spouse to go out and have an affair because "my H works all the time" or "my W shops all the time".<p>Comparing misplaced priorities or failing to meet a spouse's individual ENs to infidelity is like comparing consensual sex where you fail to help your partner reach orgasm with violent rape! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] There is absolutely no correlation between an inconsiderate lover and a rapist--none, and there is no correlation between taking your spouse for granted and commiting adultery against him/her.<p>There is a reason why God out of all the seven deadly sins chose Adultery to set aside as grounds for divorce. Adultery alone has the UNIQUE capacity to tear asunder the oneflesh union of M. And it is so destructive that Jesus even drew the correlation between an EA and a PA and said they BOTH were adultery.<p>I'm very curious about the people putting on this conference. I would like to write to them to request that they use a different analogy, one actually based in reality.<p>[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Conqueror, here's the link to their website (hope it works). www.familylife.com I sat through the entire weekend conference and did not feel the least bit offended by their approach. As a BS, I was glad they didn't talk about love affairs any more in depth than they did. They touched on it in the section on trust, the section on forgiveness and the section on threats to marriage. The reason I'm glad they did not address it any more deeply is because the LAST thing I wanted to do was break down sobbing in front of 1000 people. They did mention counseling if you were experiencing infidelity in your marriage. <p>Maybe terming these things an "affair" is what has your feathers ruffled. And they did use it loosely in my opinion. However, the first four certainly do not equate an "infidelity."<p>Personally I really enjoyed the conference. It wasn't about affairs, it was about better marriages. Who couldn't use one of those!!!??? Many of the things they suggested, my WH and I had already begun doing since DDay back in December. It was reassuring to find out that we are doing so many things "right" now!

Thanks for the link, Jamup. Here is the Email I sent them:<p>I am writing to alert you to a thread in the Marriage Builders Forum addressing an issue regarding your marriage conference:<p>[included link to this thread]<p>I encourage you to reexamine the terminology you are using in your presentations and instead use that which reflects the reality of the pain and consequence of adultery and empathy for its victims. Words DO matter.<p>As I said in my posts there, God draws a distinct line between adultery and other marital discord, and I believe that is a boundary we should respect and appreciate.<p>Thank you for considering my request. If I can be of any further assistance in illuminating the issue of adultery, please feel free to contact me.<p>[BTW, I also object to the term "love affair" (even though I know I've used it myself on these boards) because it is NOT an act of love by any stretch of the imagination.]<p>[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Never hurts to make a suggestion. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Well...I am going to disagree with you and say that yes they do just as much damage to a marriage..as does drinking or drug addiction..<p>Especially when the career or activities are MORE important than the spouse.. <p>My ex put his career over our family for ten years..he traveled with his job..was home only one
weekend a month..when I asked him to find another job over the years..he would say he would do it..and wouldn't..when he asked me to do up a resume for him, I would..only to have him "CHOOSE" his career of traveling yet again..<p>With another person you can at least try a plan A
to meet their emotional needs..but when it's a career...I couldn't give him the financial security his job did..I couldn't compete with money..his TOP EN..I offered to go to work so that if he needed to take a lesser paying job..it would help financially..he refused..didn't want me to work..and had I gone back to work he would have divorced me..because then "I" didn't NEED HIM for anything..<p>Yes, it's a matter of priorities and whats important..but when one spouse has an emotional
need for MONEY being their TOP need..you can't compete with that..he grew up DIRT POOR..and now he's making more than he ever has in his life..and he wasn't going to give that up..for me..or for his kids..<p>At least if there is another person you have a chance..when it's "something" you don't..