Hey!!<p>I'm back--I needed a day to gather my thoughts. You ladies are beautiful. Thank you all for the pep talks. I needed you. Thank you for listening to me vent. Thank you for taking the time to counsel me.<p>You guessed it--he is all over me with attention now. He called me from his office 3 times today just to ask if I needed anything. Why does he do this? He is the very picture of evil one day, and I make up my mind to walk, then he lays low for a couple of days until I have calmed down. Then he's all lovey. Then it starts all over again.<p>Bottom line--if he discusses his affair and all the little nasties that he's done for the last 3 or 4 years, that means that he's admitting to doing it. And we all know that he's perfect, after all.<p>Some will say--OK, let it go. You don't need to know everything about the affair to forgive and take him back, right? Don't sweat the small stuff. Forgiveness means not making him feel ashamed by rubbing his nose in it like a puppy that's doo-doo'ed on the carpet.<p>There are so many people who would give their right arms to be where I am--just to live in the same home and sleep in the same bed with their WS. Am I being ungrateful?<p>What triggered this whole uprising--this time--was seeing OW's webpage and reading about her undying love for my husband--still. It made me mad!!! What nerve!<p>But what made me madder was my husband's nonchalance about the whole thing. It's like "Yep! The entire world loves me, how can they help it? Now leave me alone."<p>You are all right--I should have insisted that my husband follow the correct proceedures in marriage building, such as outlined in SAA. <p>Like. . .<p>sharing passwords (I have, he has not.) <p>Avoiding temptations (I have, you won't see me in a club, but he dismisses the attentions of women as being circumstance, still. He came back from a business trip with a "funny" story of how a prostitute followed him all over the place begging him for his business. He thought he was being "honest" for telling me. I fought to keep from blowing my stack the whole time he was recounting this story.) My husband still loves to go to the clubs while he's on trips. He sees nothing wrong in this. (Duh! What do people do at clubs besides play pool and dance? They try to score with other people, that's the whole point of going there!)<p>He should have written the letter of no-contact. Instead, he admits that OW came to him last winter and confessed to him that she had a new guy, and asked for his blessings, like "I know I told you that I would wait forever, but it just seems that you love your wife a teeny bit more than me, can't understand why." Trashy!!! (I wonder what happened with that? She's single again.) She just kind of hovers like a buzzard, never quite enroaching, but she never quite leaves, either. And he doesn't flat out tell her to.<p>As for me, I shouldn't have come back unless I had agreements signed in blood. He asked me to come back, and I did, but I came back to the same ol' BS. He said we would talk, he said he would clean up his act (and he has, noticably, I will give him that) but we haven't talked. We fight when I try to talk to him about the affairs. We should have talked before I agreed to come back--right?<p>What can I do to go back and fix everything as I should have done at the first? Do I shove SAA in his face and make him read it? (Yeah, right. He went as far as to hide all my books. He says I have deemed myself an armchair psychologist and he's tired of my analyzations.) <p>What can I do to convince him that in order for the marriage to heal, I have to be able to trust him, and that that trust has to begin with his behavior?<p>His activities in the past do not give me any basis for trust. Up until six months ago, we were still go around and around with his porn. He still sees going to bars as a thing that he has the right to do. He is still evasive--he tells me that he shouldn't have to explain his whereabouts at all times or "call in his coordinates" at any given moment. He leaves for work in civilian clothes and returns in them even though he's in the military--and he gets mad when I ask him why he does that. (To a BS, the first thing that comes to mind is that he is making a stopover on the way home from work) He tells me that he doesn't want to be targeted as an American in a foreign country--it makes sense, it's what I was told to do when I was in the military. But when he tells me that, he is angry and defensive, giving me the impression that he is hiding something.<p>We came to blows about why he had to stay in a posh civilian hotel on one of his recent trips rather than stay in military billeting. He blew up and hollered about it--he said he was going to stay whereever there was room and that I was being bothersome by asking about his every move. Why does he always have to explain himself?!!! DUH!!! Because he has proved to me that he is a sneak and a liar from his past activities and I would be a fool not to ask!!!<p>Here it is four years since the start of his affair, three years after the PA ended, two years since d-day, one years since I came back to be with him. And we are still at square one when it comes to the honesty/trust issue. The marriage, in most other areas, such as time spent together, affection, attention has improved immensely. The angry outbursts are less frequent (unless I initiate it by "harassing" him.) On my part, I have become stronger, smarter and less co-dependant. So why does this continue to antagonize me? Why does he insist on keeping his secrets? Does he have the right to keep some secrets? Should I back off and leave well-enough alone?<p>Should I keep up my stance at not moving with him until he comes clean with me? (he says he has and he's not going through it again. Uh huh. Alrighty then.)<p>This makes me think about you, Topie, and your June move-out date. BTW, how are you and what are your plans now concerning that?<p>Okay, enough for now.<p>Thank you all for your help. Love you all!!

Bern,<p>Your timetable is sure lighting a fire under me that I definitely need to lay down the gauntlet about this ASAP. Every night I run through the script in my head, and that's exactly what I'm hoping to do--tell him we need to "do it by the book" and hand him SAA. So far, I've chickened out every time. I think it's because depending on his reaction, it will force me to DO something.<p>If he finally gets down to business and does what should have been done from the beginning, then I'll have to face me and whether THAT will be enough for me to feel like this is a long-term R. If he gives me the kind of stuff he has in the past, I'm afraid I will be so disgusted with him that I'll have to file the papers to get him out of the house and go to court and all that hell, and I'm so drained of energy I may just crumple instead.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bernzini:
<strong>This makes me think about you, Topie, and your June move-out date. BTW, how are you and what are your plans now concerning that?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>All is not necessarily well on 'that' issue. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] We seem to have fallen back to the old standby routine of 'letting it pass for now'. And I know that sure as heck doesn't work! (we ALL do, huh?).<p>I have talked it over with H, and we are going to write up a contract with each other. It will be me who probably does it up... but we will BOTH have copies, and we will BOTH sign them. The contract will list things such as... should he get involved with internet porn without telling me about it (even little 'pop up' windows at his hack sites, etc), and should I find out on my own (I HATE that), then he has 'x' days/weeks/whatever to move out. Of course, this contract will include time with other women.... but I'm honestly not concerned about that one. I'm not sure exactly what all of the content will entail... but my feelings right now are that it will include a lot of EN's of mine... and if they're not met, then he's out. And of course, it will include HIS responsibility to tell me what his EN's are (preferrably in written form - I work best from that).<p>I'm stuck on another issue right now. His buddy guy friend. I'll be making a post (again!) about it soon (maybe tonight? I'll try... grin). I think that until that issue is solved, I cannot work on these other things.<p>You know what I just realized this is like? Someone with Alzheimer's Disease. Let me explain... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>A person lives their life. Things start to change. Their memory fades. The most recent events are what they forget first. Then they start moving backwards in time, until (should they live long enough) they actually end up in a fetal position, and cannot communicate with their surroundings. ( I remember this from my 'social service worker gerontology' college diploma course I was taking).<p>Just like going from A to Z. You can't skip any letters. Let's say A is the start of your relationship (or M), and Z is the start of recovery. You have to back track on it all to be able to start from another A again to 'rebuild' your M (or alphabet... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) ZYXWVU....CBA. <p>Does any of that make sense to anyone? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'll stop it now... before I get filled with analogies and head WAY OFF TOPIC! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Bernzini: I'm totally understanding your feelings right now. Is it worth this whole recovery process? I believe it is... but we know it's DAMN HARD WORK!!! And most importantly, it cannot work unless both spouses are doing the stuff that needs to be done. I know that neither of our H's are doing their 'stuff' now. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] And I'm fearing that the ultimatums are the only things that will work with them (you threatening not to move to Korea... and me threatening to kick him out). But as you said... that makes them change for a few days.. then they're right back to where they were before.<p>The secret is discovering what our true boundaries are. Then sharing them with our H's. And most importantly, NOT ACCEPTING ANYTHING LESS!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] This recovery stuff is really hard, eh?<p>Karen

So,
Do you think he was just drunk or hung over and now he is back to his senses? Hmmm... So maybe your timing was a little off when he came home.<p>You know your H best, but I'm just wondering how different the conversation would have been if he was able to get his nap in (I know, sweaty head and all)... [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I don't know if I could have restrained myself from responding to OW and closing his e-mail account myself if I found what you found! Yuck!<p>Then, I probably would have printed MY RESPONSE to the OW and left THAT for him to read!<p>I don't see anything wrong with protecting your marriage from that person. You can do that with a forgiving attitude. She obviously has learned nothing about boundaries after all these years. Perhaps you can be the one to teach her??? At least let her know that you read your H's e-mails. She's nervy...<p>Oh well, I don't want to encourage any love busters, but still...<p>I'm glad you are feeling better. I'm glad your H is back in his right mind. That's the thing. You know him in his right mind, your family has only heard some of the bad stuff and they don't like him hurting you.<p>I still think you should have a frank discussion about his bothersome behavior. It might be the drinking that's causing everything to have a domino effect?? Maybe??

His behavior is unhealthy, then he reels you back and back then hurts you again. It's not right. He needs to get some help. Maybe let him go ahead and move without you and get himself some counseling and stop drinking for a period of time (whatever you think is time enough to prove himself to you--6 mos., a year??), before you even consider moving. He needs to know that you are serious and that you cannot take any more of this--contact with OW, laughing about prostitutes gravitating toward him and you're supposed to think it's a joke, staying out all night drinking, coming home being beligerent, cursing at you, etc. I don't know any other MB way to preserve your love at this point except for Plan B???? [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sure, he's sorry, but it doesn't change the status of your dwindling love bank balance...

Gosh Bernzini,<p>The red flags are there. Be careful, and look after what YOU need from this relationship. <p>My H acted that exact same way after each of his affairs. Somehow, he always made me feel like it was always my fault--especially when I asked questions which he was uncomfortable about answering. <p>I tell you what...from my experience, he needs to know what you need for this relationship to improve and succeed. If he doesn't attempt to try--there is still something there.<p>My H also went to those type of places when he was away. He also always told me how women just approached him---even in the airports. When I think about it, how sick is that. Why would you even speak of something like that when you know how difficult it is for your partner to hear it. He used to flirt in front of me at swim meets and pretty much anywhere. That doesn't show caring or protection. <p>Somewhere in there his needs are still more important than yours. I don't like the feel of your posts....it brings back memories of what my life was like for the last ten years.<p>They need to change and put as much effort into repairing the damage done to the marriage as you. Sweeping it under the carpet doesn't work--I know.<p>My H could be loving and charming at times too--but there was always this level of disrespectful behavior that shouldn't be part of a marriage. Please look after you. There is no way I would move to Korea knowing what I know now. I did move with my H 3 times before moving to where we are now. When you move, you are totally at their whim for awhile---and if this isn't straightened out before hand--it probably won't straighten out. Just MOHO. Pat