Hi well perhaps i should add forgetfulness to the list. I asked him to call me when he returned from his sailing trip to let me know he was back safely. The boys received a postcard from hoim on Friday but we haven't had a phonecall. Shows how much he must think about me when we are apart- nil.
I'm afraid I'm having a very low day and finding my resolve to hold out for restoration being severely tested.
jante

Hi J, <p>I love my wife and we are together ( not separated or having a A) . But I forget to call her sometimes when she asks me to. I am forgetful but I DO care for her. I do think about her often when I am traveling. But sometimes not when I am by a phone. It is especially bad when I am tired. Don't worry too much about that, I don't think it is a factor, or that it means he doesn't care. <p>Look at all the interactions you have had with him over the last 3 months. Judge on the whole thing, not on one missed phone call. Compare to the first year and then tell me what it looks like. <p>I believe the fact that he sent a postcard is good. I would not have done this. But, you know him better than I. Would he ( when you were still together) have sent one to you also? Or would he (in your old life) assume that you would know that he loves you, and just want to let the boys know he was thinking of them? Is being forgetful something new?
Just some more to think about - <p>I got the computer at home repaired and the twins sent mail to the address you gave us. I was going to post but I did not have my MB password with me, and so I waited until this morning. (Sorry) I will take password home today and be able to post from home in the future. <p>My twins have not done much with e-mail, or the internet. I am going to set up some rules for them both to keep them safe and to prevent them from spending to much time on the net. I will have them send their rules to your son so he will know what they can/ cannot do. ( I will probably restrict them to answering mail once or twice a day, so I just want him to know about it so he won't perhaps expect an immediate reply. ) At home, we use the same telephone line to access the net that we speak on, so I must limit the length of time my children can get on the net. <p>At work, we have a DSL line that is always on, so I am connected always at my desk at work. <p>
I have not had time yet to analyze what you told me about you and H ( reply to my last big post.) <p>I may leave it for a time, and go to your upcoming conversation with H. By now, you should have some notes - an outline of what you think you need to talk about. <p>Don't let things that H does from week to week bother you. Our relationship with God would not be very good if he judged us harshly on every mistake we make. He takes a long term view, and you should try to do that also. By now, you are tired, and you need a friend and a helpmeet. It is hard to continue to be positive. Don't let the bad thoughts rule what you do. They will always come and go, but your decisions need be made from logic, reason, and promptings from God, not on these negative thoughts. You have friends to support you, we are praying for you. We care, you are not alone. <p>
I will come back later, and discuss upcoming conversaton with H. Need to go for now. <p>SS

Hi SS and thanks. Yes H would have previously sent each of the boys a card and not one to me- this time he sent one addresses to |The Family and signed it Dad.
Still no communication from him so i take it he is planning to visit as normal tomorrow.
I appreciate your thoughts and prayers- I'm just struggling at the moment with the whole concept of waiting- after so long I just want to give up and start again. Gos designed me to be a help meet and I'm not fulfilling that function.
Have given some thought to the conversation with H when he raises it. Points I want to raise with him
!
1. is he happy?
2. What does he think /feel will be the longterm situation?
3. How can he see his involvemment with his children increasing?
Also if the opportunity presents itself I would like to raise the issue of his walk woith God, reminding him of how God has worked in his life in the past and reminding him of Gods promises that have been fulfilled.
Not sure if there is anything else. Am continuing to think and pray.
Jante

J,
are you planning to meet with H tomorrow for talk?
or this weekend or after? <p>if tomorrow, I will try to give you a little to help with it before you go to bed tonight. (meaning soon)
SS

SS I don't honestly know. The last time we spoke was when I said I would like to have the talk with him. He said he wanted to wait until after he'sd been sailing. He is supposed to be up tomorrow but so far he hasn't phoned to say so. He'll probably text me when hes on the train to tell me what time the train is due. I planned to leave it up to him to raise the subject now rather than pressure him. He may suggest tomorrow- I'm away at the weekend so there won't be chance then. Alternatively my mum is staying next week so I could suggest we go out after hes seen the kids on tuesday and have a talk in a neutral place eg the pub. Still not sure what will be the best.
Jante

I will try to reply witin an hour but if I get phone calls etc, it will take me longer. Or it may be a big post and take me longer. But will try to get it soon. Don't mean to keep you up late.

Thanks SS any time would be fine, and I usually check when i get up in a morning. About 1am your time!!!!
Jante

Yes, but how much time do you really have to think before you go to school? <p>Working.....

J,
Did you ever send love letter?
and if yes, can I see it?

SS, I didn't on this occasion, but here are copies of ones I have sent in the past.
"Well you got the last word by walking out and I can't force you to read this so you can choose to delete it now if you want to.
I am not going to apologise for what I said- to me it is the truth. You have been a great man in every sense and it grieves me to see what you are doing. You have only given me two choices
1.to wait for you to make up your mind with no definite hope it will be what I want to hear or
2.to end it now and free myself of the pain and if I wish to find a new partner who will be all that you once were to me.
Until now I have chosen to wait to give you time and to pray for change.
PERHAPS THE TIME HAS COME FOR ME TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MY MARRIAGE IS DEAD AND FOR THE TIME BEING TO GET ON WITH MY LIFE WITHOUT YOU.I believe God can raise this marriage from the grave but only when you are ready.He has said so much of what you are in Him and that man I am sure is still there but hidden by a worldly coat that you see as protection.
I LOVE YOU. NOTHING you have done has changed that but I need to be loved back and if you can't give me that love then perhaps now is the time to call quits.
If you are not willing to put some effort ito renewing our marriage by spending time with ME as an individual then I will seek a formal separation and just see you to hand over the children at the appointed times.You then won't have to face my seeking answers and asking for the love you are not willing to give. I havre needs and they are not being met. I will find peace somehow.
If you have read this then on Tuesday perhaps you will have the decency to at least acknowledge you have read it. If you don't I will take it as a sign that you want it all to be over and will start to put proceedings in place to make the end as clean and pain free for me and the children as possible. If that happens you will be to blame as I have bent over backward to be everything you wanted. The decision is yours and only yours.

PLEASE PLEASE remember I love you and want us to live together as husband and wife to work these things out.I don't pretend it will be easy or painfree but it has to be better than this.
Love , your wife for ever."
This was sent 11 months ago.
Although I hinted at a plan B type action in this, I hadn't read any harley then. In the end i didn't go ahead with it.
I have sent other messages which i don' have copies of, in cards with inspirational verses at various times. the last was back in March. H never acknowledges them usually, although he did the above as i had asked but was very insistant that nothing was going to change and just after this our counsellor reefused to see us any more cos of H's attitude. there is a waiting list and H was making no attempt to do anything which she had suggested. thanks for any comments or help. jante

I can see I will be longer with this, Thanks for the information. I hope I can help. God willing, it may do some good. <p>SS

Thanks SS as its now 11.30pm I'll log off and read in the morning. jante

Hi Jante,
I find I want to switch the last two letters, my fingers have typed it that way more than a few times. But that is neither here nor there. <p>Lets talk about you first.
I don't want to say these things, but honesty says I must. You seem to be reaching the end of what you are able to stand. You start to dream about "normal" life. I can't see inside your mind and heart, but if you have even considered "who," then you are to plan B. You and I both know that God expects us to do everything in our power to reconcile in most cases. He makes an exception for Adultery. But he blesses those that try even then, after all, he tries with all of us and never gives up on us. We may give up on him and quit trying, but he does not give up on us. However, there is a final judgment, and at that point we can no longer choose to repent. ( I am speaking not of sin on your part, but those that sin so deeply that they give up on themselves and won't try any longer. ) <p>If you knew that your marriage could be saved, knew it positively, but it would be 5 years before you and H would be together again, then what? Would you find the strength to do it?
Only faith and prayer can give you the answer to the question of stay/ leave, have you gotten your answer? <p>So where are you? What do you want? You need to answer these before your talk with H.
For your own peace of mind, you need to have Gods permission to go on, do you have it? No matter that you feel you are ready, and want a normal life. Your walk with God is to close to permit you to go on without his permission. Is it judgment day for H? <p>I don't know if you need to answer these questions before talk with H. But you will need to answer them before you go on. So, I bring them up so you won't say something to H that is not true. ( " H, I am finished, it is over.") I don't think you will do something foolish, but if you think about it all around, you will do a better job of it. <p>Now, isn't it interesting that no contact for a short time has put you into this mood? Seeing him twice weekly for the past few months seemed to help you, and you thought perhaps you could see positive things happen. But having him away for a short time and missing a phone call ruins it all for you. There is something here that I do not understand, or - are you leaving something out? I could say more but am prompted to quit. <p>Next - Husband.
If he is kind, he will probably talk to you. You can't leave this up to him to get around to it. If he does not bring it up, you should mention it, and try to set a time. Before, it was just something to be able to judge his thoughts. Now it is getting to be life and death. You won't be able to go much longer. Well, perhaps I shouldn't put it that way. You could go to plan B and have him respond, but your feelings are changing so fast, I am worried about you. YOU need this talk. You commented it is hard seeing his strengths, that tells me a lot about the condition of your love bank. <p>If he does not want to talk at all, you need to be honest with him. He needs to know that you are considering moving on. <p>Pride and being sure of himself go hand in hand. One is a strength, one a weakness. I have found that I can do any task if I am sure that my Heavenly Father wants me to do it. I'm pretty unsure if I don't know. He would have to have a great deal of pride to keep being so sure of himself - doing as he is. If he is a little unsure now, that would be good for the purposes of your discussion. He may accept seeds of change planted in his mind. <p>Good father, loves kids, tries to do what is right.
That kind of man could come back. <p>Does he know he is losing the boys? You need to tell him about their turning away from church. He needs to know. <p>I am sure he just forgot to call you, I have forgotten to call my wife on trips before, she is used to it now, but before it was a major LB and I didn't even know it. ( interestingly enough, now that I understand about meeting needs, I call her more often, forget less.) <p>Lets just go to the Talk. That's what I am referring to in every sentence anyway.
I am just trying to get you to think, I don't believe I would do as well as you are going to do. If you use any of this, you need to modify it and say it as you would usually say it. As a shy person, I have gone so far as to practice in front of a mirror. Don't laugh, it helps, ( well, you can laugh if you really want to.) It really would help to practice major questions that way. <p>Let me say again, you need to reassure him about this talk, he may be thinking you are going to bring up Divorce Papers. Or he may forget about it, not even remember. There are two extremes and you may not know where he is. There are many approaches:
" I want to be able to understand your feelings, and I would like to express mine to you."
"It's been a long time since we had any kind of a meaningful talk, lets see where we are."
"I feel like I am stuck in limbo, please help me to understand what is going on "
or the simple direct approach,
" It has been a difficult year for me, a discussion about where we are would really help me to be able to move on, will you spend a couple of hours helping me understand what is going on?"
If he seems to want to back out, be firm but gentle:
Look, I need help here, I won't put any pressure on you, I won't make any demands, I'm not filing for divorce (yet) or asking for a decision or anything like that, please talk to me, it would really help me out. <p>I wouldn't press him if he is in a bad mood, better to wait a week. The other thing you could when he comes ( the week your Mum is there) is just pick him up at the station and take him somewhere to talk, if he says anything you could say " You agreed to talk after your sailing trip, so I scheduled it for today, I thought it was what you wanted. " <p>If he wants to know exactly what you want to discuss, have vague list ready
1. the boys ( church, drifting apart from you etc.)
2. What are your thoughts on our relationship.
3. My feelings about what I need to do. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Points I want to raise with him!
1. is he happy? <hr></blockquote><p>Its a good one but if you ask someone with pride (who knows he is doing wrong) he may just say "Yes, I am very happy!" because of that pride. How could he ever admit he wasn't happy? You may get more out of it if you ask something like this -
"tell me your feelings about what has happened this last few years." Then probe when he is finished, or say "go on," when he stops, until he is finished. You can ask other leading questions to draw him out and make him sympathetic to your feelings. "how do you feel about the situation the boys and I are in." What do you feel I ought to do now?" <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> 2. What does he think /feel will be the long-term situation? <hr></blockquote>
You can probably ask that one word for word. If he says there is no hope, don't disagree with him. Show no emotion, ( well, perhaps a stray tear or two.) and say "thank you for sharing your feelings with me, I needed to know how you felt." Then go on. Probe if it looks positive. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> 3. How can he see his involvement with his children increasing? <hr></blockquote>
Lead into this one by explaining how they are drifting. Reaffirm that you are not trying to pressure him but that you feel he needs to know what is happening. Tell him the specifics that he needs to know to be a proper Father. He will be accountable to God for this one, so make sure he has all information he needs to fix this one if he wishes to do so. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Also if the opportunity presents itself I would like to raise the issue of his walk with God, reminding him of how God has worked in his life in the past and reminding him of Gods promises that have been fulfilled. <hr></blockquote>
God himself will fill your mind with what to say on this one. Listen for confirmation from him when you read this. Be careful, keep it short. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Not sure if there is anything else. Am continuing to think and pray. Jante <hr></blockquote> <p>I will suggest some other things.
At this point, your LB$ seems to be low. ( that word "seems" is important, I wish I could put a finger on it exactly.) You need to express your feelings to him. He needs to know you are thinking of ending things. You will not be fair to him if you do not bring this up. ( unless he falls on a knee, and begs to come back, however, doesn't sound quite like him, does it?) <p>So, I suggest telling him flat out :
1. That your are loosing feelings for him and you are considering changes. ( and it's true, isn't it. This is a statement, not a question.)
Don't be specific. Just explain you wanted to know how he felt so, you could make some decisions about things. Explain that you still love him ( do you? ) but it is getting harder and harder and you don't know how much longer you can last. That letter from last year was harsh and full of disrespectful judgments, and anger. Keep it soft and loving. ( by the way, it is mild compared to things I once may have said, but you and I are learning, aren't we.)
Be vague about changes, leave him an out. Don't say " I'm considering divorce," so he could in a fit of pride say, " good lets get it over with." <p>2. Express that you love him and would like to have him back. Don't expect him to comment on it, in fact, hope he doesn't express doubt that would make it hard for him to take back his words. Express your feelings and go on without waiting for an answer. If he interrupts, ask him to let you finish and when you do, tell him you don't expect him to comment on what you have said ( unless he has been positive and expresses a desire to come back.) <p>3. Express your desire to be with him again, and to stay married to him. <p>4. Tell him that you have lave learned things about yourself, that you have tried to improve so that if he comes back, you will be a better wife and be better able to make him happy. <p>5. Explain that the boys need their dad home. ( again) <p>6. You know he has it in him to make it work and you wish for him to try. ( appeal to the kind and hard working parts of him. ) <p>If he gets angry or says hurtful things, say you are sorry he feels that way and go on. If it gets too bad, say your feelings won't permit you to discuss things any longer, and walk away. However, I don't think it will come to this. <p>
If he leaves you no time, or if he won't talk, you can always say it in a plan B letter. <p>J, you don't need to answer this one point by point. It's just suggestions. I hope you can feel that we care. Be careful, at this point with your bank low, stay away from unsafe situations. Be wise, spend more time with God, and friends, but be safe ! I hope this is of some help to you. If you can't talk to him, you are going to have to go to no contact ( B) or D unless you see other positive signs. Be nice to him, don't act afraid, or say anything hurtful, even if you are hurt. Act like the queen would act if she wanted to be diplomatic, not offend, make peace. <p>Hope I don't ruin your school day. Teach them lots of good things. <p>SS

Thanks SS had read 9 twice0 and will spoend the day inwardly digesting) Jante

I had one more thought about #4. and it applies to # 6 too. <p>I don't believe that anyone ever has a reason for an A. But sometimes we could do better about meeting our spouses needs, and ( this is the important part) sometimes the spouse that has the A really thinks that it is the fault of their spouse. "If they had only been better at meeting my needs I would never have done this." ( we call this fog.) <p>I know sometimes as you discussed things with H in the first year, he told you some things you could have done better.( I think most of it is fog, but he did express some things.) <p>So, my point to all this is: Have you ever told him you were sorry for contributing to the deterioration of the marriage, and asked him to give you another chance? For a proud person, that could be the opening they needed to start a reconciliation. <p>Something like: " T, I feel I could have been a much better wife. If I had been taking care of you properly, this may have never happened. I have learned a lot in the last 18 months about how I could be a better wife, what are your feelings about giving me another chance?" <p>If you appeared to be meek, and humble and asked his forgiveness? <p>You should not say : " will you please give me another chance." or anything that can be answered with a yes or no. It needs to be open ended., get him to talk. <p>Again, I don't believe it was your fault, but if you think this approach would work, try it too. <p>Perhaps you have already tried this, but you could do a much better job of it now after all you have learned. <p>More and more I believe it would be better for you to just wait until Mum is here and pick him up and take him somewhere ( dinner? Pub? ) But it needs to be a place you both can talk without fear of someone hearing you ( park? ) Here, we have daylight until 9:00 PM. I could easily do it at a park. In fact, Friday night W and I went to a school lawn, put down a blanket and filled out the LB questionnaire. We took about 2 hours and had a very good talk. Some children came by once, but it did not interrupt us. You would know what would work best with H. <p>How are you feeling today? <p>SS

The reason for asking this question no longer exists. It's a long story.<p>[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Hi SS. Yes I have exprssed those thoughts about my own part - more than once and he just said he would never believe I acted out of love not duty.
That said I will certainly say it again.
H is here now and arrived 2 hours early due to having spent afternoon in casualty due to broken bone in foot. He is also tired so i don't think tonight will be the night for OR talk. Am planning on doing it when my mum is here next week. I had spent today praying about my situation and what you had written. I asked God to fill me again with love for H if i was to continue standing. the moment he arrived on my drive the love for him overwhelmed me. Now I feel like weepping for what has been lost but am resolved to continue to stand for my marriage.

Hi, H has just left. he spent a lot of the evening helping me with my computer, not doing it for me but teaching me, a big change for him. As he left I asked if we could hug and he said yes, it wasn't half hearted and it was me who detached first. (Ididn't want to start weeping on him)thanks for all your help and prayers. jante

Hi J,
I'm glad it happened just that way. It is just as you needed it to be. <p>I wish I could hold both your hands, look into your eyes and say " Jante, this is going to work." <p>How are you feeling?<p>(edit) I came back to add some more -
I hope you have gotten a good night sleep. I hope you didn't lay awake wondering what all this means. God's granting you the feeling of love, together with the hug must have lots of meaning for you. Keep up your prayers, you know they work. <p>You are starting the emotional roller coaster again, it will be rough. Rember that you got through it once, you will again. You know you can. When the bad feelings and doubts come, remember where they come from, and replace the bad with positive thoughts. <p>If I remember from about 3 weeks ago, you are going this weekend to meet with some DB'rs from other parts of the UK. Be careful and protect your emotions. Don't drink to much. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
But have fun. I could have waited until later in the week to post this part, but I try to always follow the promptings I get. So you get it today. <p>See you later, Hope you have a GREAT DAY !!!
And how are you feeling? - I am not expecting a pat answer, I really want to know, or I wouldn't ask.
SS<p>[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

I just got back from a funeral ( relitive of a neighbour that was staying with them for a few months, I didn't know him well. ) Neighbours son and mine are best friends. <p>Just bumping up, but thinking that you had probably spend the next few days thinking about things and not worring so much about posting. We will all still be here when you are finished mulling it over. <p>I am glad you can see some light ahead. You needed light right now. Do you ever wish God would give you the whole thing, and have it over with and not dole it out in bits and peices? But he always knows best. I just wish we could always understand. <p>But then for a bump, I am talking too much. <p>See you around,
SS