Oh, Jante, <p>I feel for you now. I wish I knew exactly how things would play out and what to tell you. I wish I knew why I had strong feelings that you would reconcile. I don't know any of these things. But I do know that God knows and will take care of you. I do know that I had those feelings as strongly as I have ever had them. (feelings that something would happen or that it was right.) <p>You and I ( all of us in the world) cannot escape the refiners fire. We are to be purified as Gold and Silver is purified. The fire is hot, it must be to burn out all of the impurities in us. Why does it seem we are never given a rest? Wouldn't it be nice to have one. Some are consumed by the fire. I believe you will come out purified and refined. But that doesn't lessen the pain the fire inflicts upon us. ( my text is from the book of Malachi) <p>It wouldn't be right for me to try to tell you every little thing to do. I don't know it anyway. Sometimes God uses us to help each other. I really wish I could do more, but will support as much as I can, and say what I feel. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I then told H that despite that because it hurt so much to think of him with OW etc. I wouldn't be spending any time with him in future. Unfortunately already regretting that. <hr></blockquote><p>Contact with him often deposited units in your LB$. It will be hard for you to maintain your love for him. Especially with him confirming living with GF and spending time with her at ( former) home and wishing to sail with her. <p>I don't know if any good came from it either. No, I do know, it has to be good. You have done what you needed to do. Said what you needed to say. Now, we must have faith in our Heavenly Father and let him take it from here. Please don't give up on him or on yourself. <p>This is from Luke Chapter 11
 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent 12 if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?<p>I don't know how it was with you and your Father. However, Christ tells us how it is with our Heavenly Father. If he is our Father, then you are his daughter. He is a careful, loving Father, he holds you in his hand. He won't drop you, or let things get too bad. Believe in him. I know he is there. I promise you he will not leave you alone in this. <p>Please continue to pray. ( I know you will, don't know why I say it. ) <p>I have only two suggestions. <p>1. Send the love letter you have written. I believe he needs to see it.
2. Ask H to pray for you. Tell him with all that has happened, you need lots of help. Ask him if he will pray for you. Say please. Be strong.
We once discussed asking him for hugs, etc. Do this that way, ask if he will do you a favor. You would know best how to phrase it. He will say "Yes" or he will say "It depends" or
"perhaps" or " if I am able to " or something of that sort. Then ask him to pray for you. <p>Call your Mum, his Mum, your sister, or a good friend. Talk to them. Cry some for yourself. We are able to cry for a reason. I suspect many of us will share tears with you before this is all over. We are here today praying for you. We will still be here tomorrow. Don't despair, have hope. <p>SS

Thanks for the encouragement SS.
I have had a sleepless night going over all that was said and what it may man for the future and praying for God to act and to bring peace to me. Will drop in again later in the day. (7am here)
Jante

Good Morning J,
You will still have a few sleepless nights. You may wonder what it all means for a few weeks. <p>Let me ask you a question. Why would God restore your love for H as he drove up the other day? What could be the reason? I mean, if it was over, wouldn't he just let you go? Could he be sending you strength to last because it needs more time? <p>Hang on to your faith in God. It is real. I have thought about your H much of yesterday, I can't think of anything else we can do for him except fast and pray. ( do you know the story of Ester from the old testment? ) I don't know if you have tried fasting, it works for me. <p>I wonder if you could ask sons, reletives, close friends etc to all pray for H on the same day, same week. Well, I didn't mean to write so much this time of day. I will check in later today also. <p>You have gone through a lot of pain, and it is not over yet. Please hold on, we do care. The problem is not with you. You have done nothing wrong. Lets go another few weeks and see if anything changes. <p>SS

Hi SS and thanks once again for taking time to reply and to pray. Yes I know that God must have a purpose and I have been holding on to that. Slowly today my spirits have lifted and though I'm not back on top yet I am feeling more positive than I did this time yesterday. Have also fasted and prayed today and I will continue to do so on a regular basis as I know it can unlock situations that seem impossible.
I did tell H that i would pray for him and that i didn't believe that gos had let go of him what ever he may be doing.
I have found a copy of a testimony that H wrote sometime ago for a magazine and a copy of a prophecy that God gave him which amongst other things speaks of how God will cpomplete the word H has brought despite what ever any one else may do. Am considering sending them with a love letter from me to H. Will pray for certainty over this before i do. Jante

J, <p>I wish I had words that would heal all your wounds, fix all your problems, and bind up your broken heart. It would be wonderful if words could do that, but alas they cannot. So, we rely on prayer, and Gods spirit of love to lift us. Oh, J, I hope you are being lifted. <p>This is the place where we would normally say " well, you have given it a good try, its time to let it go." But I can't say that. I don't know why, on the surface it makes no sense to hold on. I would like to see you happy and in love with someone that is also in love with you. We all would like to see you without these problems. <p>This seems like one of these impossible situations that there is no hope of ever recovering from. God would be the only one that knows what will happen to you. I can only say that you should do what you feel he wants you to do, nothing else will work. <p>A few weeks ago I was advising you to look at plan B. I was just using logic based on what I could see was happening to you and to H. If I was just using logic now, I think I would still advise plan B. I also have some other feelings so I will communicate them. <p>Go ahead and send the letter, and testimony. What can it hurt? It is consistent with seeking Gods help in restoring things. I would still ask those close to you that know what is happening, to pray for both of you, Also ask sons to do it. Do you pray as a family each evening? We read a chapter or two from the scriptures each night ( right now we are in the book of Numbers in the OT) and then we kneel and pray together. We feel it brings us to be a closer family and unites us in our goal of helping our family members that are struggling, and in helping others around us. If you are not doing this, I recommend it. We take turns saying the prayer. (different person each evening.) It may help unite your sons behind you and help them develop a love for their father, and a desire to help him if they will pray for him. <p>After such a difficult conversation, I would give things a few weeks before you do anything, or make any changes. Let your heart settle down, collect your thoughts. Try to get back to normal, or as normal as things can be right now. Continue to pray until you are sure how to proceed. You are sure to be given advice by some to move on now. Logic says you should, but I cannot feel to tell you that. <p>I say the same thing as before, wait, watch, pray. I hope you are explaining to the boys why you are doing what you are. They need to have their faith built up. I know you have mentioned it to them before. They need to understand that prodigals can return, and that they need to be welcomed when they do. When we read the bible, we discuss what we read until I know they ( children) understand. That would be a good story to study. You seem to always do the right thing, perhaps you have already covered these things. <p>When you read this, I want you to smile. I want you to practice your best, most confident look and use it when teaching sons. Hold that smile -
SS<p>PS, I just read this page again ( all of your and my posts, page 10) , I don't know how you could have done any better in your discussion. We always think of things after we are done - "what if I had said this." I believe you covered the most important things in the right way. Well done.<p>[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Hi SS and thanks as always for the encouragement. Have had times in the past with sons when wehave read the bible ogether etc but at the moment I pray with each child at the end of the day and we usually include a prayer for their DAD.
H has just been for the evening. He sent me a text to say his train was 7 minuytes late and was he still alright for a lift. I texted him back to say Yes. Went and collected him and we all ate tea together before i went to church group.
H only mention of the talk was in relation to whether i minded him still eating with us. I said that it wasn't a problem, that i didn't intend to invite myself on any more trips with children, though if I was invited that would be a different matter. Also told him that this home was the childrens home and he was welcome in it in that context. He then left.
Oh he had also offered to do a website for me for something i had done at work- and to register the domain for me. It seems to me that despite his claims about divorce deep down he is still not wanting to sever all ties with me.
Haven't written the love letter or sent the prophecy etc. yet but do intend to. I was feeling rather low after Sundays conversation and not in a place to write it.
I know I can't plan B it just isn't in me to cut all ties- especially with the children.
jante

Have also just had a chat with eldest son. He finds it difficult to talk about his feelings etc so it was good that he wanted to talk. He is resentful of having to do things with his dad and said2 he left so why do we have to spend time with him"
I pointed out that it was me he left not the children and that he di still love them and want to spend time with them. Son also objects to how H has different rules to me when it comes to things like computer time and eating food in the main room. I said he ould have to accept that that was how things were and when dad was in chargedo as he wanted.
Son is a mature 13 year old and is becoming increasingly resentful of anything that intereferes with his own plans and time with friends. H doesn't recognise how he has grown in past 18 months.
Jante

Hi J, <p>You seem to do so well after all that has happened. I would ask how you do it, but I think I know. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Oh he had also offered to do a website for me for something i had done at work- and to register the domain for me. It seems to me that despite his claims about divorce deep down he is still not wanting to sever all ties with me. <hr></blockquote><p>This is one of the oddest cases I have seen. I don't pretend to understand what goes on in his mind most of the time. I wonder sometimes if he just can't bring himself to admit he made a mistake, so he just goes on in it, and tries not to think about it. <p>As far as Bible study, and family prayer. These have become part of the glue that holds our family together. We are together for them, we focus on each other, shut out the world. We can counter act the falsehoods that come into our home on the radio, television. ( Television glorifies sex without marriage, etc., etc. ) We discuss the things the world says along with what the bible says. ( for instance, we found in the old testament that the penalty for cursing parents was death, kind of puts a new light on the way they speak to us.) The children can re-inforce the things we read with each other. ( thou shalt not covet, so leave my coloring book alone ! )<p> J, it looks like you do a good job at parenting, I am amazed how you support H to the children, you are doing it right. As always, take any thing that makes sense to you. Just Ideas for you to consider. I throw out lots of ideas - things that work for us, just for your information. And my children are not angels by any stretch of the imagination. They are usually on the right track, but they sure make lots of mistakes along the way. ( I do too, what's up with that?) <p>I am glad you pray with children for their Dad. The bible teaches us to love our enemies. He is not the enemy, but it has to seem that way sometimes to the boys. This is a good thing. <p>It has occurred to me that really nothing has changed with the talk you had. You kind of knew these things before. His stated position has not really changed at all. What has changed is that you have had him say all the things out loud that you have thought about many times. It has hard to have faith in a marriage when one of the partners is saying they expect a D. Nevertheless, your faith is coming back since the talk, and that is good. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Haven't written the love letter or sent the prophecy etc. yet but do intend to. I was feeling rather low after Sundays conversation and not in a place to write it. <hr></blockquote>
I think you need a few weeks off. ( IMHO.) Try to think about other things for a while. Let your feelings have a rest, see what the boys are up to - boys have strange ideas compared to girls. Sort out the confusion in your mind. Let relationship things take a back burner ( on very low heat) for a while. I still have positive feelings about your situation, hope you do also. <p>As for plan B, it would be hard to do a full fledged plan B after telling him you still love him and always will. It would be kind of conflicting messages. There may be other things you can do. <p>J, I have an idea of how you can give your H a plan B type of experience with out ever doing a plan B. I think it may just shock him deeply. It will not require you to withdraw at all, or do anything different than you already do. I will work up an outline and let you look at it. I think you will like the idea. (There is no hurry, is there?) <p>Take that time off. You need a break. <p>The usual questions -
Have you spoken with your Mum or Sister about talk? If so, what do they say? <p>You say you are confused because his words ( divorce) don't match actions (hugs, helps you with things.) How are his actions different now from - say one year ago? <p>This is OW #2, what happened to # 1? What was H like between #1 and #2? How long between? ( sorry, hate to bring this up.) <p>I am curious as to what OW thinks of his contact with you - do you have any idea? <p>Have you asked him for anything beyond a hug? ( thinking of kiss here) <p>Would he benefit from a good knock on head? Just kidding. <p>I have been writing this in a word processor and just checked back and saw your last post about oldest son. I ought to do this later and in another post but here goes. ( I am waiting to pick up 3rd son from the airport, so I am finished with work, just waiting.)
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Son is a mature 13 year old and is becoming increasingly resentful of anything that interferes with his own plans and time with friends. <hr></blockquote>
This seems to happen to all boys at some age. It can be dealt with after a fashion but it is hard even if family is whole. I have done better with youngest son than the older three. I have done more things with him one on one. ( things he wants to do) I believe the bible study, and prayer helps too, we pray for him by name and he knows we care about him. He probably has a hard time thinking his father cares, after all, he is not living there right now, just as he has said. Your reply probably does not mean as much to him as fathers actions mean to him. But you are doing what needs to be done, saying what needs to be said, don't take me wrong. <p>Besides being a father of 4 sons, I was a scoutmaster for the Boy Scouts of America for about 17 years (lived in three different places, did it in all three.) This ( wanting to be with friends more than family) happens with probably 90% of the boys. It is a normal abnormality. I don't think it is right, but it happens. Encourage him to spend time with friends when it is convenient for you ( if they are good , well behaved friends) Your support at other times will make him understand that you care about what he wants, he just can't always do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it. Another lesson we have taught our children from the bible is about this very thing. Christ said many times that he came to do the will of his father, not his own, and he commanded us to be perfect as he is. We are not on earth to do whatever we want, but to find what God expects of us and do that. ( I have noticed he gives us some free time so it's not all work.) We have tried to teach this concept to our children. Life is not all doing what they want, it is much work and the good of the family comes first over what they want for themselves. ( I said this before, didn't I?) If they forget ( and they do, more than once a week) we remind them over and over again. ( that's why I don't post very often on Sunday, we have good discussions on Sunday evenings.) We also find (and teach children) that we are happier when doing Gods will than when we try to do things our own way. <p>Well, It's time to go, Just got message that flight will be on time ( son in law works at airport) I will come back to this about your son, I have lots and lots to say about boys. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
(stop me if you get tired of it)
See you later
SS<p>[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

I didn't want you to think all my posts had to be long, so here is a short one.

Hi SS
and thank you for your thoughts.
have had a very rewarding talk with two younger sons while driving tonight. Youngest son said - I think dad really ants to come home but doesn't realise it yet. Middle son said- Dad used to be really clear in his thinking and pray a lot. Since he stopped going to church hes become really mixed up in his thoughts.
Middle son was also encouraging me to get out and make new frienmds cos he says i don't have many friends since we moved back to England.
All boys are in a much better place this week. i wonder if its because of the more regular contact with their dad. I have wondered about suggesting H write to each boy individually expressing how important they are to him. Or should i just let him come up with suggestions and solutions?
Am taking time to myself and to do things to build me up without dwelling too much on H and rel.
Looking forward to reading your suggestions on ways of making H stop and think.
Jante

So what do you do at the university Wed nights?
Taking a class?
Work part time at the library? <p>You asked me a question - I am thinking - sorting things out in my mind. The pegs are not dropping in the right slots, I'll come back. <p>SS

Have just completed a five month course retraining to teach junior school - 7-11 year olds rather than secondary 11-18 year olds. I had originally trained and taught Religious education but found it increasingly difficult to relate to the age group and arouse any interest in the subject.I seemed to spend most of my time policing the classroom and the behaviour of the children. I'm hoiping to be able toget a teaching job in the younger age range and actually teach.
Jante

Hi J,
I have been off the net today, our DSL line is out and I have just re-connected an old dial up line to my desk to get on. We run part of our business over the web now, so we had to have some kind of connection. I have been working on it for the morning. ( lunch time now, taking a break)
I finally have a slow connection for the orders, e-mail to be checked and worked on, so I can relax a little bit. Our ISP says they need a part and won't be back up for sometime, perhaps Monday, so I may not be on much until then. ( but we will see how it goes) <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Youngest son said - I think dad really wants to come home but doesn't realise it yet. Middle son said- Dad used to be really clear in his thinking and pray a lot. Since he stopped going to church he's become really mixed up in his thoughts. <hr></blockquote>
I think youngest son is spot on. Both of them are pretty clear thinkers for young men. For middle son to say this is quite a feat or reasoning. I take my hat off to him. ( or would if I had one on.) <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Middle son was also encouraging me to get out and make new friends cos he says i don't have many friends since we moved back to England. <hr></blockquote> New friends? I hope you have time to do that. I have been thinking about you since yesterday. I think about all the work you have to do, taking a class, work, running the home. Paying bills, teaching sons, all the things that two parents usually share, you do alone ( and many others on this site do it also, may I add.) I have been praying for God to give you extra strength to last as long as you need to last. And one hard part will just start with H returning. Rebuilding is difficult also. So, I pray for you , God must do the rest, I expect he will, he always does his part. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> All boys are in a much better place this week. i wonder if its because of the more regular contact with their dad. <hr></blockquote>
Or is it because God always gives you a break when you can't take any more. You needed a break. You got one, even if only a small one. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I have wondered about suggesting H write to each boy individually expressing how important they are to him. Or should i just let him come up with suggestions and solutions? <hr></blockquote> Writing would do them some good. I wrote my 16 year old a letter when he turned 12 and he still has it. I noticed it and asked him " You still have that letter?" He said, "yes, it's a keeper, I don't get that many letters from you so it's pretty important to me." <p>Let him come up with suggestions? Will he? How did he react to the part of your discussion about your sons and their needs? Does he want to do something about it? How serious does he take it? Is he the type to think of something himself and do it? Or does he expect you to help him and provide an idea?
I find myself wondering how close you two worked on parenting when he was still home. My first thought is to say you were a pretty close team, but I find I wonder - you do so well now by yourself, I wonder if you were the prime mover then. <p>I don't know the answer to these last two ( the last two above) quotes. Right now, what you do will have more effect on your sons for good, than what H does. ( He does have a big affect though, I am not suggesting he doesn't. ) You are a good example, that has more effect on them right now, and God will bless you ( and sons too, ) for your efforts, for not giving up, for trying to do what is right in every case. If you have done all that you could, you should expect God's help to complete things<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Am taking time to myself and to do things to build me up without dwelling too much on H and rel.<hr></blockquote> Good!!! <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Looking forward to reading your suggestions on ways of making H stop and think. <hr></blockquote> Will try and put some of it together tomorrow (Friday). <p>Questions come to mind ( to ask you) , but if you are going to get any rest, you don't need me asking you to think about things. I may wait until Monday with all the other ideas ?
Give you a rest?
Your call. <p>SS<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Hi SS.
We did work well together on parenting but there have also been times in our marriage whrenH has worked away from home so day to day parenting has been left to me. That said H is still involved in the boys lives and I know its far more than many seprated dads do. He comes to most if not all school parents evenings, will try to talk to the boys hen he is here and does try to think of things to do with them that he thinks they will enjoy. Unfortunately because hes not here all the time he's not fully aware of how they are growing and changing. Youngest son has had day off school toady- he kept crying whmen I tried to get him to go to school. It seems to boil down to him missing his dad and wanting to know why he won't come home to live.
Am hapy to answer questions etc. Though I'm trying to take a break from rel. in depth I am still wanting to move on and work on it and welcome any input. I think the only way to have a rest from it would be to be away from home, children and H's visits and thats not practical at the moment.
jante

Hi J,
I - well, I thought you would say that, and started working on it after I posted. Will post some on it tomorrow. <p>8 years old. All the preasures of a teen, the emotions, thought processes of a child. All the problems to cope with, none ( or few) of the skills needed to do so. Just love him, that's what he needs most right now. I wonder if your going away on the mystery weekend fed his insecurities. ( I do believe it's his dad being gone that is the big problem, don't mean to say othewise) Make sure you tell him that you are not going anywhere, you will always be his Mum. He needs it right now, no matter what the the causes, it will help.
See you tomorrow,
SS<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: still seeking ]</p>

Hi SS and thanks.
Have given younger 2 lots of cuddles and told them how much i love them and will always be here for them. the oldest won't let me cuddle but i try to rub his back or touch him in some way every day in passing, and also try to get him to talk and affirm him and reassure him of my love for him and that I'm always here for him.
jante

Hi J,
You understand what is needed and do it. I have a great deal of respect for your parenting skills.
Our older sons all went through the "ugg, don't hug me, thats for babies" stage, but they come out of it later. ( at least all of our sons have come out of it.) One thing my wife did was say "I need some extra love today, please give me a hug." So they did it "for her", and got what they needed too.

I won't be able to post much today before just about your bed time. Will work on the suggestions for H.

SS

Hi SS well H has been here today and after my saying last week that I would not be spending time with him unless invited he asked the boys what they wished to do today and then when they said go bowling asked me to join them. I love bowling and anyway enjoy being together as a family which hasn't happened for 5 weeks so said yes.
H also offered to go and get a couple of doors for me and nang them. This after insisting last week that he wanted a D. One confused man I think.
Hope you have a good weekend.
Jante

Hi J,
It is good to get an update from you. I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I got caught up on 2longs thread with some feelings I had about he and Spacecase and it took so long I did not get back to you. I made the statement that I would not get back to you until about your bedtime and that implied that I would post again yesterday and I did not. Please forgive me for my lack of integrity, probably it caused you no thought or pain, but it always bothers me when I do not do what I say I will do.

I find myself at work today - to work on a family reunion newsletter that I must get out to all family members soon. We hope to gather in late July and should have 300 to 400 family members here. ( I am kind of in charge of it, so much work.) My family left England in the 1850's and traveled to Australia looking for gold. It not working out as they wished, they came to America in 1861 and settled in the west. We will be visiting some of the original home sites as part of our 3 day reunion.

I can't explain what is going on in your Husbands mind. I wish I could lay it all out and tell you exactly what would happen and when it would take place, but I can't.

He does seem very confused. I believe right now that you understand him pretty well. That even as close to the situation as you are, you have an idea of what he is thinking. Go ahead with your plans, they are solid, and well thought out.

I had other ideas in my mind. I find they won't come out at all. I tried yesterday, and felt to wait, then didn't get to them. I am trying now, but they won't come. Just do what you have in mind, you have been speaking to God, do what you feel he wishes you to do.

Glad you were able to go bowling. Nice to have some deposits made isn't it. You are doing the same for him. Note that you are making those deposits for him at HIS REQUEST. Wow, the plot thickens. I believe he is making deposits on purpose as he understands it. ( building wardrobe, hanging doors, going bowling.)

I don't believe you are as confused as he is. Will you explain what you think is going on?

SS

Hi SS
H has been able to sort |sons email out so he has replied to Amanda and will reply to Sara after this ( his hands got tired!)
I did check in but understand that you have much more in your life than posting to me. I'm grateful for the time and thought you do give.
As for H's mind- I think he still wants a close rel. with me but knows that until hes willing to go back to God a rel between us is fraught with problems. I still don't get the sense of a great love towards his OW as I am sure i would if it existed. I'm not sure how much she knows about the time spent with me as well as with the kids but if she does I can't imagine shes too happy about it.
Have been toold about the 5 languages of love and my language was definitely acts of service-ie thats how I showed my love. H's never was and it never bothered me I accepted we were different.It seems as if either consciously or uncosciously he is trying to speak to me.
His love language was definitely of the sexual physical nature and he has cut me off from exp[ressing any of that but I am asking for hugs- though not every visit.(And last week hugged him with out asking and he didn't pull back ) And I've started touching him- ie rubbing his back as I walk past occasionally. Again not too often at the moment to make him uncomfortable just enough to express interest/love.
I suppose the truth is I have to settle myself to a long haul and not expect change overnight but know that god is at work.
Jante