Hi just a very quick pdate before I leave for camp- do you remeber the missing testimony etc? Well I opened the drawer this morning that I searched last time and they were laying on top! Now I wonder where they came from ?
Jante

Hi folks, well just back from a brilliant time at camp- only slightly spoilt by the changeable British weather- rain, sunshine wind, and freezing cold all in 4 days. However a great time to spend with friends and children- though they were so busy I didn’t see much of them.
It was also an opportunity to reassess where I am in my fight for my marriage. As it was a Bible camp I spent large chunks of time in meetings worshipping God and listening to messages. A key one as far as I was concerned was yesterday when the message was from the prodigal son- but applied not just to children but spouses as well. My H had been a leader in the church for years and in having the A has walked away from God also. I found myself challenged one again to pray without ceasing for him to return to God. The hopeful result of that would be a return to the marriage and this family but that was a lesser issue for me. I am at a point where I will keep praying and hoping for that out of a desire to honour the commitment I made but am just as happy to walk on, on my own. However I do have a burning desire to see my H back walking with God and serving Him as I know he can.
Having come back from that meeting I made the children phone their Dad to wish him a Happy Birthday, only to learn that he had taken OW away to Belgium for the w/e – the only place abroad that we went to as a couple .I was very hurt at first but am gradually able to review it with amusement- he doesn’t have much imagination when it comes to choosing places! Why does he keep taking his new g/f’s to places that we went to together? Also I wonder how often he forgets himself and refers to times when we were there and things we did or saw!! Hope those reading this have had a good weekend.
Jante

Hello J,
I don't have much time as I have been informed by my wife that our basement is flooding. I had better go and see what it is about. I will check in tomorrow, glad you had a good time at camp.

SS

Hi SS Hope you managed to stop the flood- or are you busy building an ark!!
Well went to see solicitor today with regard to financial dealings with H when the castle ssale completes. I can just settle things with H amicably and hope he sticks to any agreement and that he doesn't want to keep a large share of the equity to pay his debts, or I can go the legal path in which case H could be unpleasant as he wants to keep solicitors out of it. I'm waiting to hear what he says on Saturday when we discuss it and then make a decision. In meantime am praying for wisdom in all of it.
Hope you had a good break- as you will have gathered I did. Jante

Hello Jante,
Well, Well, I am glad you had a good time at camp. It is always good to be made to think of things relative to God's point of view. It is good for our thought processes to be challenged and have others help us see things differently. It looks like you were helped as much as you wished.

It was also an opportunity to reassess where I am in my fight for my marriage. As it was a Bible camp I spent large chunks of time in meetings worshipping God and listening to messages. A key one as far as I was concerned was yesterday when the message was from the prodigal son- but applied not just to children but spouses as well.

One of the reasons I worry about you is that you need to have a companion in order to be happy. Not just to be loved, but you need someone to serve, and give love to.

I am at a point where I will keep praying and hoping for that out of a desire to honor the commitment I made but am just as happy to walk on, on my own.

When you say you are just as happy to walk on your own, I do not believe you. I believe you are getting more used to the idea of him not coming back, and I believe you could find someone else that you would be very happy with, but I do not believe you would be happy forever by your self. Note that I think you could do it very well, and would if you had to, but I think for reasons I stated above that you would be happier with someone. Perhaps if you had expanded your statement, you would have said this. ( If I called this one wrong, please correct me. ) I am not sure why I brought this up, usually I would have not.

Now, I do believe you would like to see H return ( as indeed he will do if he returns to God,) but I also believe as things progress it will be much more difficult to ever reconcile ( for you also, not just him.) One of the things I worry about, is that the day may come when H wants to return but you may say, " Well, T, I have wanted you back but taking you back now would be more trouble than it's worth, and create more problems than it would solve."
If he does not hurry, that point will come (IMHO.)

My H had been a leader in the church for years and in having the A has walked away from God also. I found myself challenged one again to pray without ceasing for him to return to God. The hopeful result of that would be a return to the marriage and this family but that was a lesser issue for me.
I believe you - you have a lot of faith and everyone is important to you. I commend you for your faith and prayers in his behalf. That is one of the reasons I believe you will reconcile with him. God still has power to bless those that come to him in faith as you are doing.

As far as H and Belgium, I also wonder how many times he forgets and says something that would embarrass both of them. I think he still loves you. The more I mull it over, the more I think his problems had to do with a mid life crisis - as well as the other reasons we have discussed. All his dreams seemed to be coming apart about the time he left. I don't think he chose to leave you so much as he chose to get away from these problems. I still think about it sometimes and wonder.

About the flooding basement.
A pump failed that takes care of the drains in the laundry room in the basement. Water started coming up one of the drains and my W was concerned. When we built the home we had the contractor lower the floor in that room 3 inches in case it ever flooded and so it was all contained in that one room. We replaced the pump last night and it is OK now. The first pump lasted 10 years so I hope we get another 10 out of this one. It took about two hours from when I got home until we were finished - including clean up. So not too serious.

My Trip
My friend was better in some ways than I thought and worse in others. He is loosing feeling in his fingers and feet, so he has a hard time picking up small items, and has a hard time walking. He has learned to compensate by watching closely what he is doing but he can't go on for ever, and I suspect will be in a wheel chair within a few years. He is a very dear friend and I hate to see him in this state. I asked how he was doing mentally and he say he trusts God to take care of him and doesn't worry about things from day to day. His home is paid for and he has few expenses - all his children are grown and married. His wife is a jewel but she has had problems from the stress of his illness ( He has MS) and she has recently had a heart attack ( and can't work for a few months) . I hope my visit gave some encouragement, that was what I intended. It was a relaxing trip for me, and yes, a good break.

My biggest worry -
Well went to see solicitor today with regard to financial dealings with H when the castle sale completes. I can just settle things with H amicably and hope he sticks to any agreement and that he doesn't want to keep a large share of the equity to pay his debts, or I can go the legal path in which case H could be unpleasant as he wants to keep solicitors out of it. I'm waiting to hear what he says on Saturday when we discuss it and then make a decision. In meantime am praying for wisdom in all of it.
I worry about you in this because I know you want to be kind to him. I know that you have a hard time saying no when he wants something. There are a number of ways to deal with this, but you have to want to. I also know that a solicitor will see things you cannot, and look out for your interest, but at a price - perhaps not just in pounds.

One way is to make sure you don't decide anything when you speak with him.
It could go something like this.
H - " Well what do you think, will that be OK? "
J - " I want to think about it and I will get back to you."
H - " I need to know right away."
J - " I'll tell you as soon as I can then."
H - It's pretty simple, why don't you just tell me now."
J - " I will think about it and let you know as soon as I decide."
H -" I would like it better if you tell me now."
J - " I will think about it and tell you right away."
H - " You have never been like this before, why won't you tell me now."
J - " As I said, I will let you know as soon as I decide."
H- "Why are you doing this?"
H - " I told you , I want to think about it and will let you know."

I think you get the idea, with this one, you only need to say one thing over and over, no matter what he says, you just keep repeating it.

Another way would be to hire the solicitor and tell H to speak with them - but you will probably speak with him Saturday before you make up your mind about that.

If you think you are strong enough you can just talk to him but hold the first suggestion in reserve and use it when you don't know what to say.

H - "So, you will get 15,000 and I will get 15,000, does that sound OK? "
J - "It does, but I will let you know for sure next Tuesday. "
H - " Is there anything else you are concerned about?"
J - "Nothing that I can think of right now."
H - " Then why don't we just go ahead and settle it now?"
J - " Since you chose to leave us, my first responsibility is to look out for the children and myself, I just want more time to think about it."

This way you converse a little more but still hold out and decide later.

If he says He needs more of the equity than you do, you could tell him perhaps you will wait for the D when you will probably get 1/2. But this would make for bad feelings. That's why I suggest stalling. You can then reply with e-mail, or if it is really bad, have the solicitor contact him with the reply. If he has been kind, you can reply later and agree with him.

To sum it up.
1. Stall for time - nicely if you can, bluntly if not.
2. If he is not being fair, stall and get the solicitor as soon as you can.
3. If he is being fair, stall and let the solicitor approve it anyway. This will not cost much and may save you some worry.
4. Speak kindly but be firm.

I really do suggest you have a standard reply to give him if he presses you and you don't want to say yes. Practice it over and over so it will come easily to your lips if you need it.

J, I am glad you had a good time. I wish you well in these important decisions. I believe God will continue to help you to perform beyond your normal abilities.

I should also tell you that I often come on early in the day but I usually post to you last. It usually takes me a little more time to figure out what I want to say to you, hence I post to you later in the day.

You did not say how C, A, and D did at the camp. I am especially interested to hear what D thought about it. I hope he was of the frame of mind to enjoy it, not just go because he had to go.

Lets see, one other observation, T's birthday is in August. My W's is also. Your birthday is in Sept., mine is also. There is always something in life to bring a smile to our faces.

SS

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks SS as always for your considered reply.
I will certainly stall rather thn mmake definite decsion on Saturday- I have also arranged to go for lunch with a friend after H and I have talked .
A so enjoyed the camp he didn't want to come home. D said it was ok which is high praise from him at the moment! C went forwrd for salvation ( not the first time!) baptism in the spirit and healing of his asthme. Only down bit of whole w/e was when I collected them from a meeting and A burst into tears over his dad!
To your comment re me and the future. You're right of course- its being without T which I will be ok with. I will be better with someone to love and serve. Plus I would love to have a consitent male in the boys lives.
Glad the flood was averted!!
Jante

Hi SS hope you get chance to read and possibly comment before Saturday am my time!
It was H's b'day on Monday, and I bought a card which the boys signed and I posted. I also made them ring him on the day to say Happy Birtday. However when I suggested they may want to get him a present they couldn't think of anything to get him and so said I should get something from them if I wanted to. I haven't done, neither have I sent a card or got a present from me.
While away I had thought of writing him a letter telling him about the prayer for him last monday and telling him that was the only b'day present i could give him along with copies of his testimony and the prophecy. However I'm no longer sure about that either.
Any thoughts or comments.
On a different note WW3 broke out between boys earlier and A rang his father ( again) to ask to go and live with him. T then spoke to the boys- but not me- and D hung up on his dad cos he felt he was getting all the blame. I dealt with my end of it all very calmly and was actually releieved that T didn't ask to speak to me. Progress indeed!!
Jante

Hi J,

I still have some questions for you about sons, but it doesn't seem right to bring them up now. You should probably worry about speaking to T tomorrow about Levan. You are in my prayers, and I believe you will do well. ( I suspect you wish that you felt more at ease - and had more faith in a good outcome, please don't worry so much. ) I suggest you don't wear the spotted socks, he may think they are in poor taste!!!
( they don't have a symbol where the tongue is sticking out, but this is where I would put it.)

There are always many more things I would like to say, but perhaps this would make a good end. Hold on to your faith, you know God is helping as well as I do. One cannot get better help than that. We lend our faith and prayers to yours, I sincerely hope it is enough.

SS

Hope a little teasing doesn't bother you, that's all I mean to do. Don't take this to serious.

SS our posts crossed I hope you get to read my last one. I don't mind the teasing

Jante

Hello J,
What fun you are having. What great fun. - WW3 - Well, I suspect after WW1 and WW2 that England would have to be involved in some way.

It was H's b'day on Monday, and I bought a card which the boys signed and I posted. I also made them ring him on the day to say Happy Birthday. Yes, and T was gone to Belgium.

No matter what he does, they should be taught to respect their father. I agree with you in having them do this. My Wife's Father and Mother were divorced when W was about 15 years old. Her mother always showed him respect and did the same with regard to birthdays for him. ( She did not send cards, but had children do it) Wife's mother never spoke badly about him and never complained about him even though he treated her badly. W's father badmouthed her mother constantly but no one ever believed a thing he said, because we could all see by her actions what a noble person she was, and what a jerk he was being. You already know what needs to be done here but I just wanted to confirm that you are doing the right thing with the boys.

However when I suggested they may want to get him a present they couldn't think of anything to get him and so said I should get something from them if I wanted to. I haven't done, neither have I sent a card or got a present from me.
I don't think you need to do anything beyond a card and having them ring him. I am surprised A did not want to get a gift. C doesn't understand and D has hard feelings, but I thought A would want to. I probably don't see as much as I think.

While away I had thought of writing him a letter telling him about the prayer for him last Monday and telling him that was the only b'day present i could give him along with copies of his testimony and the prophecy. However I'm no longer sure about that either. Any thoughts or comments.
I have always felt you should do this. God always gives warnings before he takes action. We both believe that he ( God) may be taking action soon. I think T needs the warning and this would be a way for it to be given. God still sends angels to take charge of his affairs, but does not seem to do so very much for ours, depending instead on us helping each other. Listen closely when you compose a letter to him ( and please do so,) God will speak to your mind and teach you what to say to H. You may have things come to you that will be hard for you to write. Write them anyway. God will teach you what to do, but expect you to do much of it yourself. Often ( usually) our success depends on our obedience. Write what you are given to write. He will get it out, and read it again when God acts, and it will be a great help to him. It is interesting that God himself took care of the timing on this one.

There are many different kinds of Love. I sense you are loosing the love of a wife for her husband. I can tell you still have charity for him - described as the pure love of Christ. I suspect this is what we will have for each other in Heaven ( if indeed we live there someday.) We will care for each other deeply like you continue to care for T even after all he has done to hurt you. I think you know this is happening - hence your comments to me about being able to do without him. Don't worry about it for now, God will take care of this later for you. God is still able to give gifts to his children, he delights to do it and he will take care of you.

Once I commented that you have friends to help you - seen and unseen. I would like to comment on the unseen ones. You know from the Bible that messengers have been sent all through the ages to help us. Angels have been mentioned - but we sometimes speak of Guardian angels, and you have them watching over you. Perhaps they ( on assignment) found the testimony and put it where you could get it. You need to know they are there and will watch over you and protect you. Our connection with God is real, both spiritual and physical. It is not just theory. I am not sure why you need to know this, but you do. Again, I feel I merely reinforce what you already know.

On a different note WW3 broke out between boys earlier and A rang his father ( again) to ask to go and live with him. T then spoke to the boys- but not me- and D hung up on his dad cos he felt he was getting all the blame. I dealt with my end of it all very calmly and was actually relieved that T didn't ask to speak to me. Progress indeed!!

It is natural and right to have both father and mother in the home. You are very capable and have been blessed with insight, but those boys have free will, and they will be increasingly exercising it. I hate to say this part, but feel it will get worse before it gets better. We have these same wars in our home so don't feel alone in this. They are not often, and we always get a treaty signed in the end, but we have them. I hope you do not worry much about A ringing his father, this is pretty normal for what is happening in your home, he will be OK. Actually, I believe it is a good thing that he did it, shows there is still some trust there, and love. It does not speak so much about you, as it shows there is still a link between father and son. Very positive in some ways. I did read ( with great interest) your account of the boys feelings about camp, it sounds pretty good.

And last, if you could attach a flame proof rope ladder to the trap door, it would be a big help.

SS

<small>[ August 30, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks SS- letter written and am now waiting for T to arrive- peace in my heart and in the house this am. Jante

Ok SS ull update- h has just left clutching an envelope containg a letter and card and the prophecy and testimony.
The letter basically offered him a b'day present of my prayers for reconciliation with God and told him how much God loved him. I went on to say that he would note that my prayers were no longer for reconciliation with him as I had had any hope for that crushed and was happy with life on my own or to think in future of other relationships.

Ok SS ull update- h has just left clutching an envelope containg a letter and card and the prophecy and testimony.
The letter basically offered him a b'day present of my prayers for reconciliation with God and told him how much God loved him. I went on to say that he would note that my prayers were no longer for reconciliation with him as I had had any hope for that crushed and was happy with life on my own or to think in future of other relationships.
I then went on to explain that with the possibilty of divorce in future he couldn't take my availibilty to collect him from the station and provide meals for granted and that he would need to make arrangement s to have the boys and that I had worked to maintain their rel. but it was his responsibilty.
I finished by saying I had included the prophecy and testimony to remind him what God wanted for him and how God loved him. I enclosed these in a card which had a scripture and verse about God loving him forever and added the verse- You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
We have had a discussion about the sale of the castle and the division of furniture. there was no argument about the furniture and though he wanted me to settle the figures involved in the division of equity I asked him to say what he thought reasonable and that I would then think about it and let him know later in the week. What he has suggested seems fair and equitable- and no mention of DV again, so I am probably going to go with it. Will write it all down and post it to him.
It hasn't been a sressful or difficult time after all. Thanks for your prayers. Jante

Hi J,
I have been fasting and praying today for T. He needs it. Began after supper last night and quit my fast tonight at supper time.

I am glad things went well for you also. I don't have much time tonight or tomorrow ( will be out tomorrow)but will check in with you on Tuesday.

I suppose now you need to wait and see what happens. See you later,
SS

SS, wanted to say thankyou for praying and fasting for T as you say he needs it and it blessed and touched me that someone so far away who doesn't know us in person should be willing to fast for him. Have a good Labor day
Jante

Hi J,
I help where I feel I can help. I hope as God teaches me, I can help more people, more often.
I often struggle with my own weaknesses, I also believe as I try to help, I will get help that I need. I suppose that the bottom line, is that we are supposed to help if we can help. I know I can't help everyone here, but perhaps I can a few.

J, as said before, you play a waiting game now. I keep having thoughts that you need to be careful with your feelings. It will be a miracle not just for H to come back, but for you to have those feelings for him that you once did. If indeed it happens, you will know that it could have only come about in one way.

I then went on to explain that with the possibilty of divorce in future he couldn't take my availibilty to collect him from the station and provide meals for granted and that he would need to make arrangement s to have the boys and that I had worked to maintain their rel. but it was his responsibilty.
What was his reaction to this? Or did he just say " yes J." with no comment? He has a great many things to think about right now. Probably many more soon to come.

How are the boys? I keep thinking about their stay with their dad but the thoughts are not coming together yet.

You seem OK from day to day. Not sure why I have uneasy thoughts about you.

SS

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi SS, we are all servnats who can only do what god shows us to do- but thankyou for bewing faithful to what God has shown you.
As far as comments are concerned- H received the letter on Saturday and has not commented at all on whether he has actually read it and if he has what he feels about it. Its in his hands now and I must leave it to him.
I can understand why you say
. "I keep having thoughts that you need to be careful with your feelings. It will be a miracle not just for H to come back, but for you to have those feelings for him that you once did. "
as I have been praying and thinking about my future plans with Castle levan sold, i can honestly say as far as feelings go I don't want him back anymore- but I can't explain why i suddenly feel like this other than a slow death of all that i had felt for him. if he wants to come back now as you say i will have to ask for god to return those feelings. At the moment despite all that has happened i am happy and at peace and though I do want more in the future, I'm not sure iyts T I want anymore. Trust will still be a big issure between us, plus my feelings of self worth in his presence. However, if god performs the miracle of bringing T home, than i have to have faith he can perform the miracle in my life of making my feelings grow again.
I have also been beset with concerns over the financial issues.
At the moment T has proposed that he gives me 60% of the equity in the property and he will retain 40 %. In return i should relinquish all rights in his pension. When these were first discussed last year the 2 figures were pretty similar. however the equity is now less, and my rights in his pension would remain until dv unless i give them up. My initial thought was to say i agreed to 60/40 split as i was the primary care and home provider for the children but that I would want to discuss the pension at the time of the dv . Am I being unreasonable or greedy, should I settle for a 50/50 split now and retain rights in pension, or take 60/40 split and relinqush rights , or 3rd option take 60/40 and ask for pension to be sorted when and if he dv's me??
All questions i need to settle.
jante

Good Morning Jante,
( well, it's morning for me here, and a beautiful day, hope it is a good day for you also.)

Thank you for being candid about your feelings, I won't worry quite so much today. I can see you have a lot to think about.

At the moment T has proposed that he gives me 60% of the equity in the property and he will retain 40 %. In return i should relinquish all rights in his pension. When these were first discussed last year the 2 figures were pretty similar. however the equity is now less, and my rights in his pension would remain until dv unless i give them up. My initial thought was to say i agreed to 60/40 split as i was the primary care and home provider for the children but that I would want to discuss the pension at the time of the dv . Am I being unreasonable or greedy, should I settle for a 50/50 split now and retain rights in pension, or take 60/40 split and relinqush rights , or 3rd option take 60/40 and ask for pension to be sorted when and if he dv's me??

Or course, not knowing what figures are involved it is hard to give much help with this. ( and I believe you were just commenting on what was before you, not really seeking advice.)

However, I almost always comment.
I don't think you are being greedy. I don't think you have that in you. If you would have to give up claim on pension in the event of a D then you might as well take the 60% now. If T was to come home, he would restore your rights to pension anyway, and if you are to loose it through D, you may as well take the 60% and be done with it. Did I miss something there? Perhaps there is more that I don't understand. ( Often the case, but I try.)

If you want a good gage about your true feelings, consider what questions you asked the boys when they returned from staying with their Dad. Did you ask about what they did, where they went etc.? Now, the real telling questions could be if you asked about OW and T. Did you think about asking but couldn't bring yourself to do it? Were there things you wondered - did he hold her hand? Was she good to the boys? Is she kind? Did she get tired of them? Did she provide most of their care, or did he?

You may be able to learn something about yourself if you can review the thoughts and feelings you had upon their return. Were you more focused on the boys experience? Did you have mixed feelings? Are the events surrounding meeting OW and watching H go off with her what caused you to feel you don't want him back? Are we speaking of the last straw here?

I have two reasons for this exercise.
1. I feel that you will find that you responded well to this challenge and that even though you are human, you did a good job in this.
2. I believe the answers to these questions will help boost your self esteem, for you do not always give yourself credit for a job well done, and you should in this case.

I found this unsettling
plus my feelings of self worth in his presence.
He has been systematically taking away your self worth with words, and his actions ever since you moved into Levan. Perhaps before. He doesn't seem to know how to do POJA, he just goes for what he wants. ( just my opinion, can't say I know him really well.)

When you disagree with him, he tries to get his way by what his says, he puts you down. This would be a reason why you dreaded speaking with him about the equity from Levan. One of the reasons you have done so well since he left is that you needed to feel you were capable of doing well on your own. You had to know that those doubts were not true. Now you know.

That's also part of the reason you feel that you don't want him back. You feel it may bring you down all over again, and that you may loose all that you have gained emotionally.

Well, I had better save some of these questions and comments for another day.

Oh, just one more. What did your friend say about all this on Saturday when you had lunch? You must get some pretty good support there, I can see it helps you- not because you comment on it, but because you are not as down as you could be, and are probably getting support.

The boys start back any day to school?? I can't remember exactly when, but it's soon. Hope they do well.

SS

Well SS the feeling of not wanting him back is growing! This is in part as you say I am a different person- my own person now he is no longer around. Also there is the issue of trust and the fact that in last 3 months I've spent very little time in his presence. It has always seemed to affect the love I had for him.
Yes I have a lot of support from friends, some of whom I have met through the DB board and who I now meet with occasionally - the wonders of living on a relatively small island. Also I have good friends in the church who support and pray for me.
I have found myself asking the question what next these last 2 days. There are many options and at this time no clear guidence. I feel that God is showing me that for the first time I have the freedom to really choose what I want to do. So now i'm working on what do I really want my life to be like for next 10 years ( until C reaches 18) and where do I want to live what job do I want etc. No one can answer these questions for me I have to sit befoe God and seek the answers. jante