I think it is imperative that we make room for the WSs to come here and post. And this includes those who qualify as the OW/OM as well.<p>To begin with, the fact that they are here at all is a very good sign that they wish to learn and hopefully make good. And even if that is not the case, their input is INVALUABLE to all of us.<p>I can say that I have learned an enormous amount about WSs from interactions here, and under no circumstances would I wish to deprive myself or them of that information.<p>Likewise, I feel I've been able to help some of them as well, to undestand how we, the BSs feel, and what goes through our heads, and hopefully give them positive guidance to rebuild their Ms and their lives.<p>Let's remember that the WS is NOT the "bad guy" here, we all played a part in these Rs, big, small, major, minor, devastating or inconsequential, but we ALL played our part and share some responsibility.<p>Lastly, if you are a BS, and you somehow feel WSs don't belong here, it is only because YOU are seeking to place blame (or more blame, or all the blame) on them, when clearly the blame is shared by all parties. Some more, some less, but shared by all nonetheless.<p>We, the BSs, have a lot to learn and a lot to offer to the WSs. Let's not allow our feelings of anger and rage and frustration deceive us into thinking that this is not the case. It is.<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

I think having WS who are trying to recover post here is great...they can learn from other WS, as well as BS, and vice versa. <p>But, I would vote "no" on having it a seperate area of the forum...I think the mix of seeing both sides is what makes it valuable.<p>Kathi

As I have read over all the various responses, it brought to mind why I hardly post here anymore. It's very hard being a FWS. I have had no contact with my OM in over a year, yet some days are as hard as the first month was. Seeking help on here did encourage me to work on my marriage and it is going better to some degree. But many of the changes I thought I saw in my H before the no contact letter have gradually disappeared again. But this time I have the strength and wisdom I have gained from this forum, to let him know what is on my mind instead of keeping it inside and letting it fester up. Now, I realize that anyone is capable of becoming involved in an A. And I am determined not to let myself get caught in that trap again. <p>I would love to be able to share with other WS's as they are working to keep their marriages together and working to seperate themselves from their feelings for the OP. It's hard work, both of them and working at them at the same time can be very exhausting. We all have stories on how we got the where we were, but we can all create new endings to those stories as we work and grow and learn from others.<p>So other FWS's, don't back down from here and don't be too discouraged when those flames come at you. They will come and you can learn and overcome them. Those hurting spouses need our input to help them gain a small measure of understand, and we need them to understand how deep the wound is that we have inflicted.<p>My prayers to all who seek wisdom from this forum.
Debbie

Absolutely Affirmative. This is a great place for both the WS and the BS. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (the BS dosen't always refer to the betrayes spouse in our house, my wife says she can tell if i'm full of it by the color of my eyes on any particular day)<p>Guardian
Psalm 61 [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Spacecase, what a nice post! My sentiments exactly... we can all learn something from each other. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Being a FWS and FBS, I don't think a separate forum would be beneficial.<p>From my WS viewpoint, PERSONALLY---the only support I would be wanting is a listening ear as to how much I miss the OM and what I felt when I was with him. It has been 2 yrs since my last contact with him and still I have thoughts of him and even want to contact him sometimes.(Thank God I don't know where he is.) I also noticed that I only feel like contacting him when I am feeling lonely, when I am angry at my H about something, or when I am not feeling so good about my marriage on any given day. <p>Why did I have the A? I can make up any reason as to why just to justify why I chose to do it, but why would I only need to share this with other WS's? So I wouldn't get flamed for my reasoning or felt I was being judged?? Maybe even because I don't want to feel guilty anymore for what I did or feel guilty for what I am thinking or wanting to do deep down?? There are so many possibilities. <p>The way I see it, if WS's have HONESTLY given up the OM or OW, and ended the A COMPLETELY, then what are you afraid of? Why would WS's need their own forum if they have nothing to hide or be ashamed of? or do they? <p>By all means, all WSs should share their feelings. I know my BS viewpoint wants to know why my H cheated on me over and over or why it is so hard for some WSs to end the A. All the stories and varying situations here on MB help me. <p>So, no, in my opionion, I don't think there should be a separate WS forum. To keep WSs posting on MB, I don't think there should be any flaming either, if we can help it. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>INTHECLOUDS

Hey, just putting everybody back on the same wavelength, this thread title is about whether WS should have their own forum, not whether or not they belong on MB boards. (see Spacecase's thread on Recovery)<p>Of course WS should be a part of the MB forums!

I support this idea.<p>I maybe didn't sound that supportive because I always search the multiple forums here, by clicking on "today's active topics" first, to see who's on for some semi-live dialog. Then, I'll go to the individual forums for the things I'm interested in that may not have been updated since the previous day, just in case I missed something. <p>I agree with those that have pointed out the value of having the FWS perspective in helping me with my own sitch. Even the few current WSs have been of help to me. They're in tough positions, comparable to, but on the other side of the fence from, what we BSs are feeling. I know my W is having a tough time trusting me to be able to maintain this "new me" indefinitely, just as hard a time as I'm having rebuilding my trust in her. <p>But we're making progress, and I owe a lot of thanks to people like Ashirley and CMiranda (FWS and WS, respectively) for their take on what my W might be going through. You've contributed to me being able to save our M! Thank you!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oaktown:
<strong>conqueror...<p>by no stretch of the imagination am i the victim... i am not a villain either... just a woman who made a poor choice and the biggest mistake of my 43+ years...
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I not sure why this is directed at me IF it is defensive, as it appears to me, though as always, I could be completely misperceiving; if so, I welcome clarification. But just in case, I'll defend myself by noting that I didn't say anyone was a villain. I used the terminology of victim and perpetrator. BSs ARE victims, and WSs ARE perpetrators when it comes to infidelity. I believe that with nearly all other marital issues they share those roles.<p>I don't object to the labeling of infidelity as a mistake as long as that is not the ONLY label used in an effort to minimize the impact on the victim(s). Whether with conscious intention or otherwise, the act of infidelity is the perpetration of harm on another human being. No matter how awful any particular spouse may appear under subjective or even objective examination, no BS has earned, asked for, or deserved the wounds inflicted by infidelity.<p>When we hurt another, it is always helpful to fully understand and articulate the depth and breadth of the wound inflicted on our victim and to fully own our responsibility for it. It is the best course for the healing of both parties.<p>I certainly am not innocent of wrongdoing in my life. I have hurt many people, both intentionally and unintentionally, and I have learned that the pain ALWAYS ends sooner when I fully own my actions, even if they were unintentioned, articulate them very specifically to my victim along with my plan for avoiding repeating the offending action, and request forgiveness as well as information about anything else I can do to help restore the R.
--------------------<p>When I re-read my previous post, I noticed that I didn't specifically state that I think we all should stay together in the same forum. I always think it is better to emphasize our similarities rather than our differences and to learn everything we can from each other as many have already noted. My biggest concern about a separate WS forum was as I stated--that it might slow down or even eliminate progress through the withdrawal period if there wasn't enough input from recovering WSs and BSs who've already made it to the other side of withdrawal.
------------------------<p>I also want to thank the WSs on this thread who have shared that they have lingering feelings for the OP for so long. I doubt that my H would ever voluntarily give me this information if it is a factor for him. I hate the thought of that maybe being the case for him, too, but as always, I'd rather know that I am not the only person he longs for than to not know that. Very painful to think that even 2 years down the road, I could likely still have reduced significance and value to my partner, or even just competitive value. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Folks, nobody puts any conditions on BSs and the positions or attitudes they need to have to be on these boards, why do some people think they can impose conditions to the WSs who want to be here?<p>They should be here, under the same conditions as everyone else; no conditions. (just follow the board rules).<p>On the same or separate forums? that's indifferent to me.<p>I will say this; some of the best, most valuable feedback and guidance I have personally received here at MB has come from WSs, they have taught me how to be more understanding of my WW, and they have taught me to see their side, which has helped me in my path...my W will have a better H because of it.<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Hi SC,
I really like and appreciate what you had (have) to say. You have been so kind and so patient to me and others. You have made me feel welcome and able to express my feelings and thoughts regarding so many different aspects of relationships.
Thanks so much for being there and for being so accepting.
Your friend,
AS<p>2long,
Thank you for mentioning me. That made me feel really good and I'm glad that I might have been of some help to you and your marriage. You and SC have really helped me stay on the right track and do the right thing.
Thanks,
AS

As a FWW (I am really glad I can add the "F" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ), I hope that WSs feel just as welcome on MB as BSs. I do think I prefer everyone integrated on the same boards and not having a separate forum. <p>As the FWW, I have received invaluable advice from BSs - they have helped me to see how my XH will perceive things, how he might be feeling, things I can do (and not do), etc. Another WS would not be able to help me like that. Yes, a FWS can empathize with withdrawl and other matters, but I think this needs to be done very carefully, so as not to encourage the WS in the wrong way, even if it is unintentional. <p>I do feel, however, that some BSs seem to flame WSs - almost as if the WSs that post here are their own personal WS. Some seem to take out their feelings and hurt on those that post here, perhaps b/c their WS is not around or available to vent to or it would be an LB to do so. I can understand this.....but I do feel that it is an unfair thing to do. I think it takes courage for a WS to post on this forum, knowing that many BSs may misinterpret what they say and blast them (and they do).<p>Anyway....I hope more WSs feel they can post on this board and I'd prefer to keep it intergrated so we can benefit from everyone's wisdom.<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: NC20505 ]<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: NC20505 ]</p>

I understand both sides of this: As a WS, I would have not listened to anyone. The only thing I wanted for about a year of my life was to be with dweeby little OM. Anyone who contradicted my heart's desire would get a fight. OM kicked me to the curb and it STILL took a very long time to get over him, and I guess I even brought the residual emotions of my ended marriage and my ended affair into my new marriage. What a mess I was!!!! But nobody could have told me nothin' without making me mad!<p>And now, here I am a BS, and the images of my husband in bed with some skanky old woman, telling her that she's the love of his life while they both are laughing at me. . .well, all I can feel is hatred--still--towards OW.<p>You see, we do not need a separate forum. The WS's who are not ready to hear the truth--eventually they will be. It might be that their lives have come full circle first (like mine did) but still, there is no such thing as candy-coating the truth. Anything less than the truth is not the truth, even if it hurts some feelings.<p>The BS's here could stand to be a little more compassionate. I will give you, most of them are very compassionate and understanding. Sometimes the anger gets the better of them--I am no exception.<p>One day, my husband's girlfriend signed on here. It was my fault--way back at the beginning, I e-mailed her the link to this place just to be nasty and rub it in her face, not because I cared about her. I just wanted her to know the dammage she caused to me.<p>Anyways, I kept my mouth shut when she posted--I said nothing about her identity. Nobody knew but me who she was to me. I did post to her, and though I tried very hard to rein in my anger, it came out anyway, very quietly. A few people chastised me for being nasty, and I felt really bad, believe it or not. For a few days, she even had a little following. Kinda hurt my feelings, but anyways. . .she bowed out and I haven't seen her on the forum for over a year now. She claimed to have no feelings of regret (boy, don't I know that!) but she still managed to get people to listen to her with kindness.<p>Anyways, we don't need another forum. I can see that turning into another TOW board. That's about the opposite of what we want, right? And what's to keep some mean ol BS from going over there and venting? It would turn into a fight.

I didn't take the time to read all the responses...but I would like to give a very STRONG opinion.<p>I CAME from a board that was for all sides. There were OW/M, BS, WS's in all stages, and adult children who had been devistated by their parents affairs.<p>I entered that site as a WS newly IN LOVE and looking for validation to end my marriage. 2 years later I left there healed in more ways than I'd ever imagined. The ONLY reason I ever left...was because they split the board. "They" decided that the WS's and OW needed a seperate forum...one where they could "safely" talk about their pain.<p>My @SS!! I fought against that segragation with all I could muster...because if it had been segragated when I found it...I might not be where I am today. I PLEADED with "them" to reconsider....there are MANY "cushy" forums for WS's and OW to commisserate. For whatever reason those never appealed to me. Mostly, I think, because everyone was enabling and STUCK...and had every appearance of planning on staying that way. That is SOOOO not ME, so I went to the board with all the ACTION. BS's fighting OW's total disreguard for the wife, and OW fighting the idea that they were being purpously cruel and self serving.<p>What I learned will never leave me. I saw the ugliness from all sides...I saw the pain from every angle. I saw people struggling to grow and learn. You could just sit back and lurk and still really "see" who had all the answers and who was just grasping at straws.<p>I entered that site fighting for my "position". I presented my "case" against my H...only to have a bunch of vindictive, know it all, higher than thous' shoot me down. P**sed me off! I made a big stinky poo and stomped out of the room! HMPF! Tell ME I'm only thinking of myself...like YOU'D KNOW..you have NO IDEA..poor me waaa waaa waaa. Surfed the net and found PLENTY of other sites that weren't anything like that one....yet I still lurked at the other one. That was the only one that seemed a plethora of REAL information from people who were NOT STUCK! I began posting again and this time learned a bit more respect for the diversity of opinions (still doing that from time to time [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) There was so much personal growth that went on there, not just whining and back patting. And when I reached a point where my head was clearing, I asked many questions that helped me to be where I am today. I felt personally betrayed when they took that site away...it's nothing like it used to be.<p>WS's and OW are adults. If they are SO SURE what they believe in is right, why do they need to be "protected"? I feel that if I had been sheltered I would NOT have successfully grown. I realize the information won't help them if they leave...but then those that are REALLY ready to learn, will stay. Maybe not post at first, but they will read.<p>This site is good...it's not as diverse as the other site used to be and the "ideas" are mainly around Harleys principles...but it does have much to offer someone who is lost. Please don't try to shelter them from that...that's often what got them lost in the first place.

hope4future... great post.

Oaktown, just wanted to encourage you for your courage to leave "lurkdom" (lol--you are right, there's gotta be a friendlier word for those who prefer to observe from a distance while taking in the wisdom offered!)<p>You are right. WS are often aware of their shame. Sadly, there are some in such tremendous fog but if they post here, generally that fog doesn't stand too much chance of enduring. And that's what MB is about...supporting one another to move past the shame, pain and unfaithfulness toward restored relationships, forgiveness and coming to understand oneself better.<p>It is pretty scary when you are first new to MB as a WS but it's sure worth the risk. <p>I am one of those FWS who only drops in on occasion now--as someone mentioned, sometimes it tends to dredge up thoughts of OM that are better left in the past now (mine are not pleasant thoughts toward him--finally I can pray that he will find a better life but too often I wonder who is hurting now [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ) but it is also a real privilege to share the healing and try to be there for others on the journey, too.<p>There are a lot of heroes here--both BS and WS. I still marvel (and now sound like a broken recording) at the incredible fortitude of BS who forgive and dare to reach out to WS for their M to be restored. <p>So my jury is out on whether an exclusive forum would be best but definitely my jury is in that I am glad you posted, Oaktown and hope you enter recovery full force. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] All the best to you.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
<strong>Hey, just putting everybody back on the same wavelength, this thread title is about whether WS should have their own forum, not whether or not they belong on MB boards. (see Spacecase's thread on Recovery)<p>Of course WS should be a part of the MB forums!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Don't misunderstand my position. I understood what the thread was about, but many posters apparently felt they could "flame" and place "conditions" on WSs presence here, so I felt that I should support their free access the same way we all have it.
It was not my desire to mis-direct or otherwise deceive...it just seemed like the thread was going in another direction.
My apologies to the board for any confusion I have caused.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>I support this idea...<p>...But we're making progress, and I owe a lot of thanks to people like Ashirley and CMiranda (FWS and WS, respectively) for their take on what my W might be going through. You've contributed to me being able to save our M! Thank you!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I didn't want to mention any names, but since we got started on that, I owe an immense debt of gratitude to ashirley for her insight, knowledge, and her limitless desire to help. She has a huge heart, and I feel her pain, and if in some small measure I can reciprocate, I gladly do it.

thanks freshstart... i appreciate the words of encouragement...<p>i've yet to post a question (i have many)... i'm not quite sure where to begin, but i'm sure it's coming... until then i'll keep reading and learning...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>...Don't misunderstand my position. I understood what the thread was about, but many posters apparently felt they could "flame" and place "conditions" on WSs presence here, so I felt that I should support their free access the same way we all have it.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well you are not specific in your accusation, but if you are referring to me, please don't misunderstand my position either... The advice I was referring to comes straight from the Marriage Building Q&A's on How Affairs Should End. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
...There are three parts to the way affairs should end. The first part is revealing the affair to one's spouse, the second part is never seeing or communicating with the lover again, and the third part is getting through symptoms of withdrawal after a permanent separation takes place...
<hr></blockquote><p>These are "conditions" that Dr.Harley puts on the WS, not me... The WS is responsible for ending the affair and not feeding the addiction. We are in control.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
...For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse. <p>So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life...
<hr></blockquote><p>The above excerpt is to clarify my reason for stating that the WS must be willing to change their (double-life) lifestyle in order to make MB concepts work in their marriage...<p>I'm still understanding the purpose of this thread. Just still having trouble seeing why WS's cannot get what they need from this site and this forum exactly the way it is...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
...For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse. <p>So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life. <p>One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions. <p>I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding? <p>Another type of clue is records of communication such as telephone records, letters and e-mail. Most affairs depend on repeated contacts and evidence of those contacts can usually be found. That's how M.S. discovered her husband's affair. When his lover was living in the same city, he was able to hide his affair, but after he moved, it became almost impossible for him to keep his communication a secret. He was addicted to daily contact, and M.S. saw evidence of it almost immediately after the move. But how many people move away from a lover? It's very rare, and if M.S.'s family had not moved, she may never have discovered the affair because she trusted her husband. <p>When a couple spend their leisure-time away from each other, it is not only a breeding ground for an affair, but it can also be another clue to an affair. That's especially true when a spouse doesn't want the other to be present at their favorite activity. I counseled a man who went fishing every summer for a week with his friends, wives not invited. But they did invite a secretary from work who cooked their meals (and had sex with them all) during the trip. <p>Anything that takes one spouse away from the other overnight is an invitation for an affair. But when an opposite-sex co-worker tends to join a spouse on business trips, red flags should be flying in all directions. Any evidence that this relationship is anything more than pure business is, from my perspective, a gigantic clue that an affair might be in progress. That's also the case if a spouse and opposite-sex co-worker spend a great deal of time working together. <p>We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable...<p>I have been letting you in on some clues to infidelity when a spouse is unwilling to be truthful. But there are a few, of course, who are honest enough to tell their spouses about an affair without being confronted. Guilt sometimes sets in right after the first sexual encounter, and it continues to build as one lie is added to another. Depression follows guilt and it's not unusual for a wayward spouse to even consider suicide as a way to escape the nightmare he or she has created. As an act of desperation, honesty is sometimes seized as a last resort, often in an effort to relieve the feelings of guilt. <p>From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation. <p>Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse. <p>But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy. <p>It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity. <p>It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth. <p>It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed. <p>After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better. <p>The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one...
<hr></blockquote><p>So you see? MBers don't just pull this "advice" for WS's out of the air--it is taken from Dr.Harley's columns provided on this website for all MBers regardless of the backgrounds.<p>No "flames" or "conditions" intended on my part--these are basic MB concepts for WS's to change the lifestyle of dishonesty in relating to the BS's... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]