Please bear with me, I'm on a roll here... Most of you have probably read this but for someone who may not have had time to read the concepts--to understand advice given on these forums, here's more of Dr.Harley's "conditions" for WS's & BS's who intend to rebuild their marriages after A's:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
...
<strong>Never see or communicate with a former lover </strong><p>Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage. <p>The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay. <p>Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity? <p>In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, <strong>I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.
</strong><p>Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation. <p>We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation. <p>How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone...<hr></blockquote><p>Granted, my delivery is definitely not as eloquent as Dr.Harley's but the sincerity is there. True MBers are not here to flame anyone. After all, the assumption is that we have all (already) read and understood the MB concepts, right???<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love. <p>Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade. <p>It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful. Honesty is an extremely important element in reconciliation, and it should be understood that if the unfaithful spouse ever sees or communicates with the lover, he or she should immediately tell the spouse that it happened. They should then agree on a plan that would prevent a recurrence of contact in the future. But as soon as any contact is made, it throws the unfaithful spouse back to the beginning of withdrawal, and the time it takes to overcome the feelings of grief begins all over again. <p>There's a sense in which M.S.'s husband was in withdrawal even before M.S. discovered the affair. As soon as the move was made, he became depressed, and what M.S. noticed the most was his lack of interest in sex. Depression will do that to you (and so will anti-depressant medication -- one of it's only side effects is a loss of sex drive). <p>If M.S.'s husband were to avoid talking to his lover for three weeks, it's likely that his sex drive would start to return, since the worst symptoms of withdrawal would probably have ended. He has a long history of sexual interest in his wife, and I guarantee that he will eventually do just fine in bed. <p>The problem that R.J. may soon face is that his wife's cheerful attitude will wear thin. There's no telling how much longer she can try to please him without an approving response from him. Someimes I tell spouses to just avoid each other until the withdrawal stage passes because all the effort to be kind and thoughtful is easily wasted until they start feeling better. <p>It's the stage of recovery after withdrawal that gives spouses the best opportunity to learn to meet each other's most important emotional needs and overcome Love Busters. Spouses should save their most tolerant mood for that stage, where they could both be receptive to each other's care.<hr></blockquote>

Am I supposed to read all of that? Hope4future, great post and I have to say the best argument i've heard for not having a separate forum. Seeing the pain that BS's are in here helps me to keep fresh in my mind the pain I have caused my H.

I only wish my thoughts and words had even been heard by thepowersthatbe at the old site. It was a true disservice to the community they had accumlated.<p>There are other problems with having seperate forums. People who are actively in an affair don't like their boat rocked...they don't welcome reality - er, should I say conflict? When you have a seperate board for them, they tend to band together and run off anyone who gets their panties in a knot. On occasion I have posted at the newly segragated board from the one I used to post at. It's amusing to drop in one totally emotionaless, not bashing, not preaching post with a small dose of reality involved...and watch the posters come at you like you're a grasshopper in a chicken pen. And I would say what they do would qualify as hen-pecking, to be sure. Having a seperate board gives them a sense that they own the joint...that they are entitled to being treated with kid gloves. I prefer they have to fight for their position if they deem themselves so smart.<p>The other problem I have...is that it's the WS's and the OM/W that I mostly try to reach. Occasionally I've found there are some betrayed spouses I can help by giving some insight into the twisted frame of mind and stages a WS goes through...but for the most part I try to reach out to those who are going through what I did. If there is a seperate board...It'd be one more on my list. People can't be everywhere all the time. I think the things that we can learn from the other side of the fence are invaluable to BOTH sides. It's easy to hate the OW when you are a BS...then you begin to post with some and get to know them, and you start to see that they are lost hurting souls too. There's plenty of pain to go around in an A.<p>I know you THINK they'll leave if they don't feel safe here. If they aren't ready to hear the truth that may be. But as they get in deeper and deeper the thought will remain that there IS information out there. They can lurk and you would never even know it. Adults need to be treated like adults...whether they're feeling weak or not.

BTDT;<p>I did not express my position based on any particular poster's position.<p>I will say this, though; you state many of the key conditions and circumstances a WS and a BS must learn to meet in order to re-build a M.<p>However, those are not meant to be conditions for posting on these boards. We are all here to learn those conditions and hopefully implement them in our Rs.<p>To that end, no conditions or positions are or should be required for posting here. Neither is agreeing with all of Harley's ideas.<p>Therefore, any and all should be here posting if they wish to, and each one will learn (or not), and adopt the Harley theories (or not), as they feel it best for their particular situation.<p>I personally am comitted to the Harley principles, but I know not everyone here is, and that is, and should be, their choice.

"grasshopper in a chicken pen" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Yup ... that about sums it up. The board that was inclusive of all sides and open to all opinions was lively, sometimes combative, usually supportive (of healthy choices) ... and often incredibly spiritual.<p>I have learned MUCHO communicating freely with the WS's ... They taught me things and opened me up in ways that I would not have learned from BS's exclusively.<p>Remember .... I am IN LOVE with a FWS ... so it makes sense to open up to other WS's !!!!!!!<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>PS<p>Hope4 ...... you just slay me! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Amen!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

personally i'm not looking for a way to avoid seeing the pain the bs's are in... if a ws is having trouble understanding their bs or what their bs is going through this is definitely the place to come... i'm looking for validation that i'm on the right path and that i'm reading the road signs correctly...<p>lots of bs's post describing some behavior their ws is exhibiting... other bs's respond with "oh yes, that's normal"... i say beautiful... there's nothing more powerful than validation from outside...<p>i'm looking for the same thing from fws's (especially those who have successfully followed the path of no contact)... i have questions like: should i be feeling guilty, be beating myself up, be etc-ing for the last thought, feeling about the om or is that just normal?... do the same things come up weeks, months, years down the road?... how do you deal with your bs always wanting to see the negative in your every move and action?... does normal ever return?...<p>so, let me go out on a limb and ask you forumites... is this the right board for me?... i've been lurking on this board for two months and i'm beginning to wonder... if you all think i'm out of place, please let me know and i won't bother you again...<p>for those of you who think i should move on can you recommend a board where ow/m, bs, ws, oc etc are welcome to express their thoughts and feelings without fear?...

Spacecase--peace offering?<p>When I posted as FWS reading about other WS contacting the OP wouldn't be good for me, I meant that was what I would fear a WS forum would turn into. <p>I DID NOT mean that WS shouldn't post their feelings. <p>I likely wouldn't go to a WS forum...partially because for me being FWS mainly means getting the FOM out of my head and also, because my remaining recovery healing is on my FBS side.<p>But if I feel that posting from the perspective of being a FWS can help an individual poster, I do that.<p>Being both FBS & FWS horridly compounds the problems/issues of being either. <p>I was against the first split of the infidelity board, though, with so many people now here, it was a good move. And the Recovery board has kept some recovereds here longer than they used to stay, so perhaps it would work that way with FWS.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> so, let me go out on a limb and ask you forumites... is this the right board for me?... i've been lurking on this board for two months and i'm beginning to wonder... if you all think i'm out of place, please let me know and i won't bother you again... <hr></blockquote><p>For me, getting the perspective of the WS has been SO helpful. Maybe I'm just dense, but it took me a long time to realize that I was not the only one hurting in this affair. So YES, please post here. The more I understand, the more compassion I have for my WW, and the more I can understand the need for patience. And that makes it easier for me to wait, and encourage, and listen without being devastated by what I'm hearing. I would hope that even if there was a WS forum set up, that BS would visit there and WS would continue to visit here.<p>Here are the main reasons I see for a WS spouse forum:<p>1) It would be easier for FWS's to see where their help is needed.<p>2) It would be a place where the slant was toward helping WS's make a decision - where expressing the difficulty of making this choice is the norm, not the exception.<p>3) It would be a place where BS's should also be able to go and add their insight, if they choose. And if they choose not to, if it bothers them, they could stay away.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by findingmywayback:
<strong>Am I supposed to read all of that? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes. Actually we are supposed to have read all of that before coming to the forum:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi01_forum.html<p>We are requested by the owner to follow these guidelines before participating in the forum. If we have followed the guidelines, we all will have read the Basic Concepts and the Summary of Q&A Columns as well as any of those columns specific to our situation, which for BS and WS alike should include the "How to Survive Infidelity" column.<p>Oaktown,<p>Please continue to participate. We all learn from each other, and I believe we all need each other to get the full picture of what is happening in our lives. The recovering WSs are among the people I have enjoyed getting to know and have come to admire very much as I've participated on these boards.

Oaktown,<p>I think this is the right board for you. It's the right board for anyone who wants to learn about how to build a better marriage, learn about themselves, their spouses, about how to meet each others EN. I think all of us who have been through the pain of infidelity ( BS, WS, OM/OW) have lots to learn from one another about how we got here. I also think no one should be afraid to ask a question or get input on whether or not they are on the right path. <p>Any BS who feels it's ok to flame a WS for asking a question or getting input to improve their marriage does not belong on this board...IMO.
That is not to say anyone should be afraid to dissagree...not at all....that's what I enjoy most about this forum, so many different ways of looking at the same situation...many have helped me trememdously over the last several weeks...<p>I read more on these boards more than I post, but I can see why many WS are hestitant to post...there are some BS out there who use this board to vent frustrations on any BS as if it were their own WS....not fair and definitely not conducive to building understanding and giving support.<p>Ok I'm rambling....stay Oaktown, lurk some more, and if the urge hits you, post a question. I think you'll be glad you did....<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

oaktown-
I think this is a good place for you, too. The BS are usually quite helpful to WS. If there is a better place, I don't know it. <p>I would be very happy to answer some of the questions you asked. Do you mind if I start a new thread to you?

Oaktown,<p>THis is a good place for you. You WILL get flamed from time to time. I do, and I am neither a BS nor a WS. I came here for different reasons over 3 years ago. Just read for 6 months, and then a post struck me and I logged on. Been learning and hooked since then. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This is a place to learn about marriages from just about any perspective. So come on in the water is fine, sometimes a little choppy, but you will learn alot and I suspect you will help even more.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

clouds...<p>permission granted...

baffled...<p>once again, thanks for starting this thread...<p>i like your three reasons a lot... you've hit the nail on the head... that's exactly what i'm looking for... for me a safe environment is crucial... i'm just trying to avoid having acid thrown in my face (i get enough of that at home)...<p>your wife may not know it but she is a luck woman...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong>...Actually we are supposed to have read all of that before coming to the forum...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My sentiments exactly... AND, the reason why I went to all the trouble of cutting & pasting it HERE... In hopes that a WS MBer WOULD read it...<p>Thanks Conqueror... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I think that a board just for FWS and the WS would be a great idea. I myself am not only a BS, but I am a WS also with an OC. <p>All of the boards on here are beneficial to everyone, BS, WS, etc., and should be read by all that come here. There is a lot to learn from them all. BUT, you have to admit, there have been some serious flames of WS, bashing to say the least. It's perfectly fine that the BS has a place to come and vent, but the WS should be allowed to have a place to do that too without getting bashed like I've seen one too many times on here. I personally have never been bashed, maybe that is because I can see from both sides of the fence and have been there. Dont take me wrong, I have seen a thread here or there that was very supportful of the WS who is trying hard to be a FWS too. But it's few and far between. I really believe that there are plenty of FWS such as myself who can really help the WS move on to being a FWS and clear some fog. There are BS, such as myself also, that can help to do that too, but the bashing part is why I believe there should be a board for the WS. There are a few WS and FWS that I talk with in emails because they are too afraid to post on here. They lurk, they read, and they know if they did post they would more then likely get blasted. A board for the WS would be a great idea, where support could be given, and it would be of great benefit to all. The BS then has the choice to read or not read that section of the boards. Anyway, thats just my two cents...<p>One more vote for a WS board!<p>Ann

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
<strong>Spacecase--peace offering? ...<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>LOR, I never meant to come across as anything but "In Peace"...and if I did, I'm sorry.<p>I believe this should be a free forum, and as such, we will have all kinds. I also believe we should all take it as a free forum and respect others' opinions...very much a believer in that.<p>I think what got me going was that some posters APPEARED to be saying: "If you don't conform to the MB/Harley principles, you shouldn't be here"
(And that is VERY different from what the "rules" say which is that we should have "read" the information on the site, not necessarily agree with it, or be committed to it, or know it all by heart.)
When the discussion really was whether WSs and BSs should be in separate "areas"....anyway, a healthy discussion it's been!<p>Peace!<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>