I think I'm now certifiable!! (We're talking LONG here!!)

Marriage Builders

Good Morning, Friends. First a bit of good news, I guess. H called and asked if he could come over and do some hunting after the funeral today and I asked if he'd like dinner w/ us when he came out of the woods. He said it would be nice.Well, I've been up most of the night, nothing new there, but the reason was a little different.I have had the same dream, over and over all night long. I don't remember the details, not many of them anyway, which is unusual for me, but always the ending.I know it was about H. Nothing new there, either. And I kept waking up to a voice saying "If you really love him as you say you do, you'll tell him the truth, no matter what the cost to you."The strange part is, I do know what truth it's talking about. For several months now, everyone who knows him, me, my daughter, his family, friends, people at work have been treating H with kid gloves, like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. To tell you the truth, I'm not so sure he wasn't - or isn't - after the visit on Saturday.No one wants to say anything to upset him. No one wants to confront him when he's out of line. One of his brothers actually suffered a breakdown a few years ago, was hospitalized and released WAY too early. He doesn't take the prescribed medication and lives isolated in an old camping trailer, with no electricity, phones, vehicle, job, nothing. This successful, properous and loving man is nothing but a shell. He now carries on telepathic communications with the FBI concerning America's most dangerous criminals and cannot stand human interaction for more than 15-30 mintes. He then asks you to leave.H's family talks about H as if he were his brother, heading in the same direction and treats him as if he's not sane or rational. Behind his back, they worry and worry and say that he's losing his mind. To his face, they treat him like a child. He is the exact opposite of everything he's ever been or believed in. And it's tearing him apart inside.Who am I fooling? His actions have not been sane or rational. I guess last night's conversation with MIL brought all this on. She's really sick and she was upset. We lost a friend last week. And when asked to console his closest brother, H replied "We've never been very close." He made the same sort of comment to Mom and she was devastated. Of all the kids, these two have always been the closest. Her tearful comment to me as she hung up was "Lori, we have to help him. I can't lose another son."So, maybe that's what brought on all these dreams last night, but they are now haunting me in my waking hours. I've done a pretty good job of showing H that I love him very much and believe in him. I have made him welcome and kept his daughter close to him, even though he's not made much of an effort. I have been frank about the way I feel about him. But I have never, ever addressed his behavior. I didn't feel that I should. What it's doing to him, what it's costing him. He looks as if he's aged 10 years in 6 months. He's been sick w/ a virus since August when he left. He saw the doctor, but they couldn't tell him what was wrong. He's had a headache since June 28. Nothing touches it. His eyes are dead. His face is constantly red and he says he feels like a blood vessel is exploding in his brain. He had his first seizure in more than 20 years.He yells and blusters and cusses. He's angry and in dispair. He's driven away his friends. He has family members (like his favorite brother) who really go out of their way to avoid him. He actually screamed at his 70 year old mom. He has been spoken to at work by his managers. He has driven everyone there so far from him that he is alone all day long. He is the subject of their gossip and their disdain because of his behavior. He is kind in his conversations with me and d. But he's edgy underneath. He blusters constantly about the fact that he's more of a man now than he ever was. The only real influence in his life is that little Sweetie Pie that he lives with and she is feeding this for her own purposes. I found out last night that, aside from the money to help support her, he is left caring for her 2 year old almost every night while she goes out. He is broke. Dispite a good salary, he is stone broke. Don't know where the money's going still, but Sweetie's station in life is steadily improving. He's given up college (A average, 2 courses left) because he can't afford it. She's signed up for night school. All of a sudden, she can.I don't know. Doesn't seem like a good Plan A-er to me, but it sure makes sense when I think about it. Talking with him about my concerns for what he is becoming IS what I should do if I really care for him, I guess. And, I'm pretty sure it might drive him even farther away. But, especially after Saturday, I have the feeling that Mom might be right. He's not living the loving la-la fantasy anymore. Everyone knows that. Now he's living in a hell of his own creation and he doesn't know how to escape.What do you guys think? This is too good a man to lose forever.Thanks, Lori

Lori--I don't get it. I really don't. I know you don't either.It's almost as if he, as "Scrooge," needs the ghosts of Christmas past, present and future to visit him. Are you volunteering for the part of the ghosts?You've even said yourself it will drive him away. I'm not sure playing the martyr for the sake of the whole family will produce any positive results? What might happen?On the other hand, he DOES need to be shaken up a little. How, I have no idea. Or whether it should be you or not? I see your point, maybe you're the only one who CAN. But at what cost?Talk some more. Tell us what you are thinking.

I don't even know, Lucks. I know it's been on my mind for weeks now. I got excited when I realized that he wasn't in love - and knows it. But that was a while back.I don't know what the hold is. She manipulates well with guilt. That's always been a weakness for H, moreso now that he's in the state he's in. At first I thought this was the "infidelity fantasy". I know depression, etc. is a big part. I'm not so sure anymore. No one is.He becomes more and more isolated every day. When we talked Saturday about talking and seeing d more, he go so upset. He said, "I know, I want to. She needs me. I need her. I don't know what's happening to me. I think about her all the time, want to pick up the phone and call, but I just don't."Last night when he called (from Sweetie's of course), we talked for a few minutes. He's very sick again. It never went away but now it's worse. He says he's still not sleeping - never has since he left. He told me to tell d "Hi" and "Lori, tell her I love her." I asked if he wanted to talk with her. He said he did, but he didn't want her to hear it if someone came up behind him and said anything. I do know that Sweetie's 2 year old now calls him daddy. Runs to him every time she needs something - even to go potty, even if her mom is there, too. MIL was so upset last night. Said "Lori, he doesn't love that little girl - you can tell he doesn't even want to be near the child, but Sweetie told me H takes care of her all the time, she felt he needed to get used to it."You're right about the ghosts. And as for my volunteering - I've been avoiding it like the plague. But they won't. They're not strong enough. I love this family. They're MY family too. But I watched when Larry was hospitalized (the police had to take him away and he was involutarily committed for a while) and the doctors interviewed family members. They were so afraid that he would be upset with them that they lied to the doctors. They destroyed a journal with information that the doctors needed to know to help him. Maintenance medication and therapy could have helped him then, but they were afraid. So, now they support him financially, visit him weekly, and mutter about poor Larry.They won't take the chance of losing more of H than they already have. He was the "golden child" of 8. He quit HS when his dad left and went to night school to help his mom support the other kids - none of the other boys contributed. He has spent his life "taking care of things". Repairs for his mom and step-dad's house, his brothers and sisters, me and d and now Sweetie. He only starting working on his own dreams a few years ago, that's when he finally began college. He was so proud of himself. When I tell you this was a good and decent man, I'm not talking like a wife in love. Until the last six months, I don't know that I ever met anyone I respected more. Most people feel that way about him.But not anymore. Especially himself. His words "I'm scum, I'm nothing, I'm all the men I ever hated." I truly do not know what to do. You're right. It may not make a difference. And it probably, most likely, will cost me any relationship with him. If my dad were still here, to tell you the truth, he would be the one. He could do it and do it right. They were so very close. But he's not. And no one else will.I don't know, maybe I'm making too much of this. Maybe it IS the infidelity thing, but we never saw the blissful in love happiness. We have only seen pain, from beginning to now. Even those who supported his doing what he wanted and welcomed Sweetie at first. Nothing but pain.But I know what I see when I'm with him. He's dead - it shows in his eyes. His memory of anything pleasant in life is gone. He's talking about wanting to die again. Scares me to death that he's going into the woods with a bow and arrows right after Butch's funeral today.Or, I could just be nuts, like I said.Got any more input.Lori [This message has been edited by lostva (edited November 02, 1999).]

I'm wondering if you should consider authorizing his short-term commitment for mental treatment (depression). He needs to see a doctor for those physical ailments also. Good insurance?Thoughts?

Lori,Don't want to scare you but with everything you have posted so far. Family history of mental problems, brother, no offence intended, Iv'e got them too. It sounds to me like H might have thoughts of suicidal ideations. I certainly hope I'm wrong, but, you must ask him up front if he has any intention of hurting or killing himself. I transport psych patients everyday with less problems than we are facing and all they see is the easy way out. Once again I hope I'm wrong, but, this is serious [censored].Please don't take any of this as an insult to you or your H. I would hate to see another tragey on this board.

Lousy insurance. Big company, world-wide, lousy benefits regarding anything psychiatric. I can't even get therapy for me or d w/out driving more than 70 miles in the middle of the workday for them to pay 50%. It's the only clinic in the area they will cover. No choices whatsoever.For the first time, Lucks, I'm getting angry at this girl. For the very first time. MIL told me so much last night. She professes to still love h, but she has orchestrated everything possible to KEEP him in this state of mind and make it worse. Take the daddy thing. Mom overheard this conversation Sunday. "I'm not your daddy, Leah, my name is H, remember." "No, Leah, you can call him daddy, go ahead." (giggle). "No, sweetheart, you can say H, you used to call me that, I like that better." "Leah, I told you to call him daddy, now go tell him what you need." (Angry) 2 year old starts crying."Now look what you've done by not letting her call you what she wants to. You better pick her up and make her feel better."H shrugs. No one has EVER told this man what to do - wouldn't even THINK about it. But this whip of a girl has got him jumping through hoops.And Mom says, she smiles and walks away. And everytime something like that happens, he loses more of himself.

Medic - no offense taken. He threatened it for the month before he left home. We didn't plan his leaving. We had planned to work on the things that were bothering him. He was late coming home one night, called from a phone booth and said I can never come home again. I talked him into coming home and talking to me. We talked all night. I went to shower in the morning and he left. He took: one shirt, one pair of pants and the two antique guns (pistols) that my dad had left him. I checked the other room, the bullets that were locked separately were gone as well.I almost died. I contacted his family - he had gone to stay with a sister for a few days. They got him to give them the guns and my BIL locked them up.Most of his things are still at home. He told his step-dad he couldn't bear to take them away, even though he knew he was never coming back.He has cried, stared into space, and worried everyone around him. So, no, the possibility is NOT unreasonable.Lori

Lori-Your H sounds like a carbon copy of mine, in many ways. It really does sound like he is in a major depression. This is an illness that can be treated. What is so sad is that so many people suffer needlessly as they never seek help or are misdiagnosed.I found out a wealth of info about depression on <A HREF="http://www.mentalhelp.com" TARGET=_blank>www.mentalhelp.com</A> They have a section on the signs & symptoms of depression that describe my H almost perfectly.What I am doing is trying to get him some help. Until the depression is addressed, there will be no way that he can rationally deal with the affair he is currently entangled in. I suspect that his OW is a master of manipulation, too. H told me she has skin cancer, & I think she has played that card to the hilt. At one point he told me that his relationship with her was "terminal". I asked him what that meant. He implied that she was going to die. I asked him if her doctors had told her she was terminal. He said that doctors won't tell you that as they want to keep your hopes up. I have read enough to know that melanoma is highly treatable, and that doctors will tell you if there is no hope. So, I really think she is using this as a cruel means of manipulation.Anyway, right now, I am focusing on his illness and trying to look at the affair as just a symptom of how sick he is right now. I have an appointment set up for him today to consult with a doctor who can refer him to a psychiatrist. He is going along with this as I think deep down he knows that there is something very wrong with him. You are right in that their situations are a living hell. I know my H wants out, but is not capable in his present state of mind to address the situation. He feels hopeless and helpless.Have you tried to discuss your concern with him about his mental outlook? Maybe if you show him you are concerned about him, he will agree to see a doctor. I will keep you posted on my progress (or lack of). I don't have a tremendous amount of hope that things will turn around. But, if the relationship continues to go south, at least I will have a clear conscience in that I have tried to get him some help.Hang in there, and good luck to you.

Lori--My dad committed suicide over 10 yrs. ago. No need to express sympathy; I've come to terms with it. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

He'd been very depressed and physically ill for a long time, but managed to hide it well. Matter of fact, after his first attempt, he passed psych tests perfectly, and was released from the hospital to begin out-patient appointments with a family-friend psych. Fooled him too. He planned the next (and last) attempt carefully and was successful in ending his life. I do not blame my mother for her inept handling of the situation. (She died of a massive coronary a year later.) But I do remember her anger and impatience with dad after his first attempt. She just didn't understand...and did not provide a safe haven for dad's recovery. It may not have made a difference if she had, but then again....Just food for thought.

Second reply, back to back. Get him home, Lori. Now. Do whatever it takes. Tell him he needs help, he needs no stress, he needs to rely on you, and family, until he feels stronger again. If he growls, tell him tough.I really, REALLY think he needs help. He's drowning.

Lori, I don't mean to worry you but take the possibility of mental illness seriously. Mental illness is often inherited and it sounds to me like he is withdrawing as his brother did. Please try to get him some help. I know alot about this as I have alot of mental illness on my mothers side of the family. Have you figured out yet what it was that he is seeing a lawyer for? keep strong girl! Listen to your instincts because they are right.I worry about you!Jill

Lori, I too tink he needs help, fast. I just don't know what the best way to do it is. If you openly tell him, he might get defensive, if you go around it he'll get hurt and turn against you ( at least at that moment ).. I don't know... DO you have a chance of talking to his family doctor? He won't be able to do anything without his consent, but can talk to him and probe, and maybe reach him somehow because he'll be impersonal. Whenmy H was at its worst, and completely depressed, I called his family doctor. She didn't really know me but listened to me. Next time he went for his appointment, she talked to him and asked him if he was stressed he denied it but because she was not me or family he didn't close himself in a defensive gesture, and was able to listen to her list some signs of depression, and after he was even able to think about it and confessed to me that he probably was depressed and needed help. Never really go as far as go for help, but acknowledging it, did help a lot.I don't know lori, but something needs to be done, and it doesn't look like he'll be able to do it. Again the only thing I dont know is how to go about it.Big HugKat------------------ Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I'm back, guys. Thank you so much for jumping in here.Just got a call at work from my MIL. She was crying again. H took off work today and spent the morning at her house. He's so very upset. He left to go get something at the store and she called me. She sounds so desperate. "We're losing him, Lori."I don't know what to do.Sidney - I know some about depression. My dad suffered for years before he finally got help. It almost destroyed everyone. I'll keep praying for you and your H, too. I'm so glad you're there for him. I'll check out that site too. I need to know what to do.Lucks - OMG I know I need to get him home. Or at least out of that situation that's making it worse. I don't know how. He's coming over today. Pray that somehow I find a way to talk to him that he'll hear.Crazy - good to hear from you again. I know how serious this is, that's why I'm so worried. I watched Larry fade away before my very eyes. Sweetie told mom they never went to the lawyer's. It was for custody of the little one, but they broke the appointment. Don't know if it's true or not. I'm trying to be strong.Kat1 - thanks for writing. When I went in to our doctor to help w/ my symtoms, I told her all about him too. She said if I could just get him in, she'd try to take it from there. He went in later - took Sweetie with him, believe it or not - and told her he was fine. And, to tell you the truth, he can make you believe it if you only see him for a few minutes. She didn't get anywhere.You guys are wonderful to help me through this. That last call from MIL has done me in. I have to do something. Marriage or no marriage, I have got to do something.Any suggestions are appreciated. Otherwise, I wing it. Wish me luck.Lori

OK, guys, he's here. Out in the woods. Wish me luck.Lori

Lostva: I am thinking of you and praying for you to keep you strong. Speaking from a person who also suffers from mental illness, sometimes we don't see our illness or how it is affecting others until much damage has been done to our loved ones or ourselves. He is denying that he is falling apart and the little miss isn't helping matters either. She maybe an instigator or the obstacle that seems to always be in the way causing you to continue to stub your toe. He hasn't quite figured out how to move the object. The sad thing is it sounds like she's pushing her two year old into a stressful situation. She probably does not understand the severity of his mental anguish. I am not saying that he will harm the child, but, I know during my dark hours, but my ability to think logically and reason was lost. I called the police on myself once because I believe I would hurt my children. If she is not careful,it could back fire on her. He may have to start his healing process one baby step at a time. As you know, I am still working on getting well. Be aware that he may not heal, but it is not your fault. I am not a licensed therapist, I am just the patient. I do know that sometimes the patient knows what ails them and what they need to feel better. Take care of yourself. My love to you.

Hello, everyone.I'm here. I'm shaking all over. This may not make much sense, I'm sorry. I won't be doing much posting tonight. It's about all I can do to let you guys know what happened.We talked. Before dinner and afterwards. I tried to stay calm, but I didn't feel calm at all. He said some things during the first part of the conversation that got me upset. So I cried. Raised my voice a little here and there. But I was honest with him. Told him exactly how I felt. I had hoped he would read most of it in the letter, but he didn't get a chance.I told him I knew I was risking any relationship we might ever have by talking to him like this, but I had decided that, if I really love him, nothing was more important than his well-being. I told him I was worried. We all were. He was losing himself and he had to get in control again before it was too late. He argued and was difficult at first. I didn't give in. I didn't hold anything back. Once I got started I just couldn't seem to stop. He got angry and then quiet. And then he started talking.All of a sudden he said, how can I find myself and be the man I've always tried to be after doing the things I've done. He talked about some mistakes he made in the past. He talked about thinking he had fallen in love with Sweetie. We talked forever and he actually talked. A few notable comments he made:He had thought he was falling in love with her, but now he knew he hadn't, but he did care for her very much and she depended on him.She's stupid.(Yep, that's what he said.) and she's very poor and she wasn't brought up like we were. Even if I don't really love her and she doesn't love me, she'll always stay with me as long as I take care of her. It won't matter if I'm a good man or not. I don't deserve any more than that.I wish we had stayed together, I had never left and we had worked on this house, sold it, and built the house we wanted to build and started over, but now it's too late. I can never come back, no matter what you say.How can I be a man again? I don't remember the past because it hurts too much to remember. I can't run away from the mistakes I've made. I have to put them out of my mind and move on. That means I have to forget all the good stuff too. Or I'll go crazy. My brain never stops. I feel like I'm gonna explode.Our marriage was not a bad marriage. I was happy with you. We were always good together. We had a terrific future. I just couldn't live with the fact that I let myself fall for someone else. I'll never forget the way I felt when I realized I had done that when I promised you I never would. And I'll never forget the look on your face the night I told you. I could never stand to see that again. I wanted to kill myself.What am I supposed to do? A good man would come home and build a life with the woman he started with and make a great future together. But I'm not a good man. I can never be a good man again. I won't have anything. My dreams won't come true. But I won't disappoint anyone again.I let him do a lot of talking once he got going. It takes him a half hour or so to stop yelling and start just telling the truth. I can't believe he actually admitted he doesn't love her and she doesn't love him. He said that she's noticed he's not happy, too and has been giving him a hard time.He asked "What would your advice be to someone like me? Never mind. You'd tell me to come home and make the best of it."I was on my knees in front of him by then, with my hands on his knees, listening. I told him that I believed that no one - not a single human being on this earth, no matter how good, how moral, how Christian (he's lost all his faith, BTW. Please pray for him) - is immune from being attracted to someone else. And, if the circumstances were just right, any one of us could slip. That didn't make him a failure, just human.I told him he was worth more than to settle for living life with someone he didn't love. He would have to work out what he wanted to do about that, but that's not what was best for anyone and everyone would be hurt in the long run.I told him that deep inside, he still is a wonderful man, but that he was so troubled he was making one bad decision after another. He needed to find someone he could trust complete, tell them the complete truth and let them help him decide how best to help himself.I told him I loved him. I believed in him and I would love to share the rest of this life with him. But it was more important to me that he find himself and make himself whole again.I told him that, no matter what I would like, I would advise him to get away from the things that were causing this stress. Move away from Sweetie, don't worry about me and Kristin and get the help he needs until he is strong enough to do what is best for him. He said that his mom has been trying to get him to move into her garage apartment. I told him I thought it would be a great idea. I'd leave him alone if he needed, he could save money and send some to Sweetie to help her out and have the quiet time and time with his family to heal. I told him that seeing a doctor would help, but he was adamantly opposed. So I stuck to the things that would get him out of such a stressful situation.I told him that, no matter how much I loved him and wanted him back with us, I wanted him to love himself again first. And he had to do it. He promised to talk to his sister. He said she will tell him the truth. (Of course MIL called just as they left and I filled her in so that she could fill in SIL and she would be prepared. Particularly for the fact that you think you'll lose him and you have to give him 30 minutes of being angry before you can actually talk!!!)To tell the truth, I don't remember what else I said - but it was all the same sort of stuff, I think. And he seemed pretty receptive after a while.BIL had come w/ him to hunt and have dinner. Bless his heart, he fell asleep on the living room sofa while we were in the den. We went to wake him up and headed for the kitchen to talk. By then we were cutting up a little and laughing. (I can hardly believe it.) I told him that D was singing on Saturday. He said, "That's my b-day and I'll be out of town. Damnit!" I told him that's ok, BIL had asked me to dinner on Friday night and I'd send his present and cards by him. He was NOT a happy camper, but he composed himself pretty quickly. Is D going? Nope. Do you think it would be ok it I went too? I fell on the floor, rolled around several times, fainted and screamed in shock, all without his noticing, but recovered quickly. (That WAS a joke guys!) Oh, doooo, that'll be so much fun with the three of us! But what do I tell her? Tell her the truth. I can't do that - too many repercussions. Tell her whatever you want, but I vote for the truth. I don't think I can afford it. He talked for 10 minutes or so trying to figure out whether to go or not.By then BIL was awake and standing there and I told him H was thinking about going to dinner with us. He just raised one eyebrow. H said maybe he needed to bring a date to make it easier. I told him that if he brought her, I'd simply have to castrate him, besides I rather liked the idea of two handsome men taking me to dinner. He laughed "I'll bet you would."Another hug and off they went, laughing and joking about dinner on Friday.I gotta go get yet another glass of wine to get over this one. My heart is still racing. My nerves are shot. Somebody please tell me that I did ok.Sorry this is so long, I had to unload a little.Lori

Oh, I left this off. Sobeit - thank you so much for being there for me tonight. This was a tough one for me. You have a lot of words of wisdom. You know, one thing in particular. He told me tonight that he has moments lately that he loses control, goes off on anyone and anything around him. I'm a little concerned too. H is usually crazy about kids and very very good with them, but he's not H right now. He knows it too.Send your prayers for both of us, please. We need them badly.Lori

"She's stupid.(Yep, that's what he said.) and she's very poor and she wasn't brought up like we were. Even if I don't really love her and she doesn't love me, she'll always stay with me as long as I take care of her. It won't matter if I'm a good man or not. I don't deserve any more than that."Smart enough to manipulate him!! Oh, the veil over his eyes. My bet is that little girl will be off-and-running with the next benefactor quicker than he can blink an eye.I don't think he'll leave her to live in mom's apartment. Do you?I'll do some more thinking on this. (Okay, so...ya find somebody who will lure her away and he gets wind of it? So...you become needier????? Hmm...nahh.) Still thinking.

Keep on thinking, Lucks. I'm gonna go have a well deserved night of restless sleep.Whaddya think? Did I do OK? We talked, we cried. He even held my hand once or twice. (ok, so for me these days, ANY sort of contact feels good!)I don't know what's gonna happen now. Guess I'll figure it out later.Hey, thanks for being there today.lori

I thought you did good.Really good. And your BIL and SIL and MIL sound like they are going to support you, because they know that you are the best thing for your husband. And you are.Don't back off from being his friend. Stay very very consistent. And I would check on him way more often than you have been.Maybe make a plan with the inlaws on who calls him when - does he allow anyone to call or does he do all the calling?I think you did really well. Pray for wisdom. God Bless, TNT

Lori, You know what I am going to say. You did GREAT. That must have been so hard to listen to. But your H needed you to listen and you did. He let it out and look what happen, He felt better and laughed and joked with you. He will remember that for a long time. Don't stop Plan A now, It's may be starting to work. Yes, His brain is tofu. Yes, He doesn't feel like a good man. Yes, He says no matter what he can never come home....... Horse pucky. That's his evil twin GUILT talkin'. He still feels bad about all of it. His self worth is in the toilet. That may take awhile to get over. How long are you willing to wait??? I know your answer but I want you to feel good about what your doing. You are being there for him, wheather he relizes it or not. Keep it up, Be his friend, And listen when he talks. BABY STEPS...................PS. Read your e-mail, I wrote you a novel.------------------ Rutger......One day at a time.

It's morning now. I need to get some sleep.Lucks - no, I don't think he will move out on Sweetie. And yes, I agree, (and so do those in the family that spend time with her) that she's much smarter than he thinks. Now, not about most things, she really is from a different world, but in manipulating people, oh, yeah, I think she rivals just about anyone I've ever met.TNT - so good to hear from you again. I'm glad you think I did ok. I've been so upset about the whole stupid thing. You know, I've never seen him like he is now (I don't suppose that's a big revelation now is it?). I'm trying my best to be his friend. Couldn't blown it last night. I said a lot of things that made him very uncomfortable. Hopefully the in-laws will back me up. His new-found temper easily intimidates his family, though. Heck, me too, but I just stared him down until he got over it! I talk to mom every other day or so and she's been calling H when she doesn't hear from him in a few days. Good idea. I'll pray for wisdom. Thanks a lot, C. Rutger, my friend. I hope it was great. Last night I was nervous. This morning I feel sorta lost, oh well, we'll see.I have some ideas as to how to deal w/ the evil twin, but I don't think most of them are legal and I'm pretty sure they're not moral!!I know, baby steps. How long??? Well, you know me! I get tired and frustrated but I keep on plugging. Besides, compared to some people, I'm just getting started here!!Gotta check my e-mail. Been waiting!Lori

Lori - I agree with Lucks 2nd post. This is really a crisis situation for your H and something drastic needs to be done in a hurry. Would it be possible for your and H's families to get together and find some way simply to take him away from Sweetie Pie? (What an ironic name!) It's clear that he's her prisoner almost like a prince in a fairy tale being under the spell of a wicked witch. (She probably cheats on him too when she goes out and leaves him with her daughter. Unbelievable!) If you have to, I would even suggest finding a way to get rid of her, even drive her out of town, whatever. Buy her a one-way ticket to someplace at least 1000 miles distant and tell her, "There's a bus leaving tomorrow, be under it!" Escort her and her daughter to the terminal and make sure they get on. Wave goodbye. I really am serious about this. Otherwise, your H will just remain under her spell even if you manage to have him committed someplace. (Might be a good temporary solution though, just to get him away from her - but what's to prevent her from visiting him all the time to keep her power over him?) Maybe even call the cops on her. That is really a terrible situation as you describe it and I do feel very badly for you and your H too. You have my best wishes for a happy resolution to all this. Regards, blessings and hugs,--Wex

Hi Lostva -You know that I am going to say ATTAGIRL!!!!!!I think you were perfect with both your statements and listening techniques!!!! Absolutely Brilliant and your self-discipline was terrific!!!!!I would like you to come to my house and give me lessons...I'll be my H and you could act and say what I should do when my time comes!!!! What do you think? We could videotape it and send it to others here who need it!!! LOL!!!(I am serious, you know!!)Anyway, I was thinking on this last nite and apparently real hard cuz I had a dream about all of us MB people coming to H and Sweetie's and picking up H to take him away from her!!!! It was kinda neat cuz we (MB people) all had faces and bodies and everything!!!LOL!!! It's so funny that you mentioned going to get him, Wex! I guess we're thinking alike here!!!!I know that this is going to help him, Lori...I just know it!!!You're a good Wife....You're a good Friend .....And you are definitely a good person!!!BIG HUGS and ONe more ATTAGIRL!!!!!Sheba

Wex - I do like the way you think. A one-way ticket to anywhere would be cool. And, you wanna know the truth, if we could have found a way to do it without getting arrested so far, we probably would have. MIL even tried to figure out how to raise a substantial sum of money, 'cause she figured she could BUY him out. She's probably right! Actually one of Sweetie's little plans backfired. She's been trying hard to get in good w/ MIL. "Would you teach me this, I don't KNOW how to do that...oh, could you show me?" (I've heard her - imagine the voice of a twelve year old!!) So she called mom while H was here last night (he didn't TELL her they were hunting here!) and said she wanted to do something "special" for H's b-day. She thought she could make some cookies w/ M&M's in them but she didn't know how. Since she goes to her ceramics class on Thursday night and H is home watching the little one, could she come over and have MIL take her to the market and show her what to buy and then go back to MIL's house and show her how to make cookies? H will never suspect where I am.GIMME A BREAK. MY DAUGHTER COULD READ A SIMPLE RECIPE AT 5!! And H is a great cook (had to learn when I broke my legs!)First of all, MIL could not believe she was asking, secondly, her suspicions were aroused. "Wonder how many ceramic projects she's bringing home, Lori?" Thanks for the support. Any any more ideas of how to make her disappear.Sheba - HI! Does pacing and crying a bit work with the self-discipline part????Hey - I'll come visit. Sounds like fun to me. But I want to get smudged!!!!What a picture! All the MB people ganging up on Sweetie. Now THAT I'd want to videotape. Faces and bodies and everything, huh? Pretty cool.Thanks for the Attagirl. I'm trying. Keep sending good thoughts our way.Luv Ya,Lori

Lostva,I second, third , fourth everything everyone else has said. You did a spectacular job and I know it was hard. But I am concerned about your H. It is not Sweetie Pie, but his health. He knows something is wrong with him and it may be physical not mental. Is there any chance that you could get him to see a physician? Yes, it could be hormonal, but it could also be something else. The family history shows that it is likely something is wrong.Please consider it. The temper, the loss of drive, and many other things can come with physical problems. Even the depression sometimes can be associated with the fact that people do not feel well. I'm not a physician, but I can offer you some very simple examples, many times people who have blocked arteries will be short tempered and down. In more than several cases of people who had heart attacks, close relatives observe short temper, loss of drive, loss of self-esteem. I think you have made a major breakthrough with you H. I suspect he now knows he can talk to you and you won't go away. Get angry maybe but you won't be intimidated. If there is the possibility that this is physical and it can be fixed he might see some hope in the situation. Rather than the mental problems such as his brother had, for which he has not been cured, and your H see no hope for. Do you see what I mean. If in the course of the physical they find, he has some chemical deficiency, that can be fixed to [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

if you know what I mean.You have done a wonderful job, and it seems your dream was telling you something very important.God Bless You and Your FamilyP.S. The constant headaches make one really suspicious. Medical insurance may not cover mental but they will cover this type of thing. Go for it.[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 03, 1999).]

Hold on a minute Lostva...I'll be right with you........BLLLLLLLAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! UGH!! I just hate throwing up!!! and that's even before I tasted any cookies of hers!!!How about making the man a decent meal, you ignorant @%!!?@#$#$#!!!OK Lori - I'm with you now!!!I have a wonderful idea!!! I could send some "VEEEEERRRRY SPECIAL" M&M's for her cookies.....only thing is your MIL has to make her sample the batter!!! Make sure MIL DOES NOT GO NEAR these very special M&M's!!! (EVIL Laughter and rubbing of hands!!!)That will take all the problems away!!!!Meanwhile, in the real world, you could be making him that decent meal (like only you can!!) that will actually help to improve his health!!!So, tell me.....did your MIL get stomach pains from all the laughter after that conversation? LOL!!! She is truly remarkable...and/or scared poopyless about her son, that she tolerates this "predator".On to what you asked me about crying and pacing....of course it is self- discipline!!! Look at it this way - you didn't choke him or use the old 2x4 out of frustration....now that would lack self-discipline!!!! LOL!!! I think it would qualify as a Lovebuster also....although, I personally feel that it would be, in fact, a Plan A'ish thing to do....after all you are just trying to show how much you love him, right? Well, sometimes love hurts!!! LOL!!! You come and visit me and I will set up all my fun stuff....bring D, it'll be a kick!! I'll get the "smudge sticks"!!!We can get the old cards read and hey - maybe we can do that group meditation thing.....we could giggle like crazy!!! I even promise to get you one of the "true" twigs....maybe we could split a bush!!!! How does that sound?I am happy that i am starting to remember my dreams again...this one I definitely would have wanted to be aware of....I can't fully see the faces anymore, I remembered better this morning...oh, well it was a great picture while it lasted!! Wouldn't it have been cool to actually do that?Well, there's always the picture of it to use when you feel blue!!!I'm always sending good thoughts and prayers and hugs!!!Sheba

Oh, Sheba - you do crack me up!Same request (not particularly healthy though) - every year - I used to want to do SOMETHING different,but he wouldn't have it - now, I'd LOVE to do it just once more. Oysters for appi's, Crab-stuffed Prawns, Standing Rib Roast, special potatoes (a made up kinda thing) , steamed broccoli, caesar salad he's NOT going to touch, homemade bread, wine and whatever cake d decides he should have. Yes, it's too much for 3 people, but I think he likes the leftovers. I LOVE your recipe for cookies, though!!!!!OK, clear the guest room - we're on our way.BTW - the 2X4 was in the corner - break glass in case of emergency!!!Luv YaLori

Hey Lori, I'm sorry I'm so late to this thread... I've been really sick and on pain meds (which is fun all by itself [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) but wanted you to know that I read aaaaalllllll of what you wrote. You've done very, very well....Just wanted you to know that I am thinking about you and supporting you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

------------------ ~SherylMarriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.

AAAALLLLLL of what I wrote, Sheryl? My, aren't you ambitious!!!I'm so sorry you're sick. Got meds, not. Hope you feel better very soon. Thanks for your support. I'm working on it. My brother called tonight (he's got pluresy - ok so I can't spell). Filled him in. He says, well, he's almost there - the bottom. Not bad. Took me 2 years. Wish I could have talked to w like he talked w/ you last night. It's time for me to talk to him maybe.Tell me something. How does H feel about me now? Well, used to be close, but when he left he said he hated my whole family, now he's a little better. Ask him if he wants to build a fence. HUH? Ask him if he wants to get away for a weekend and help me build a fence at my new place. It's a guy thing. (I knew that - once I took him literally). See what he says.SSOOOOOO - there's my next letter to h. Wanna go build a fence with b? Get away. No Lori, no nobody, just you b and the fence.Sounds pretty therapuetic to me. Hope he'll do it.Everyone. Thank you SOOOO much. I think I'll actually sleep tonight.You guys are life savers.Lori

Lori - Yummy meal! Love those oysters and crabs! Glad you can keep your sense of humor in this situation too. MBFers are great when it comes to this kind of support aren't we? (LOL's all around to everyone's witty posts and suggestions for Sweetie Pie!)All seriousness aside, would it be possible for you simply to TALK to this woman, nauseating as that might be? I mean, everyone in your family and H's family could get together, go over to her place, tell her all of you just want to sit down with her and have a serious talk, because you're concerned about the effect she's having on your H. And then tell her what you see happening to him and that you believe it's because of his relationship with her. H's family members (esp. your MIL) could make it perfectly clear and in no uncertain terms that Sweetie Pie is extremely unwelcome in their family and that they don't want to have anything to do with her. They might even suggest in strong terms that she leave town. Simply telling her this would not get you arrested (as long as no actual threats were made) and might be very effective if there were 4 or 5 of you from both families impressing upon her the fact that her intrusion is highly unwelcome.Whatever you do, keep after it. I think you might be amazed when all your hard work to save your marriage pays off, and you rescue your H from this hussy. (I think breaking up our spouses affairs is, in a way, rescuing them from the OP.)--Wex

Lori you have done really well so far. Obviously everyone, including H, but maybe not sweetie, knows he needs help. You and your H's family must continue to show him you are non-threatening, a safe outlet, but he needs one more thing before he can consider moving to MIL. He needs to know sweetie will be taken care of. The guilt he feels for letting you down is what he fears will happen if he "lets down sweetie". You and H's family must not run her out of town, not yet anyway. Get your H to share his concerns for her so that he knows you are willing to help her become more capable of looking after herself and not dependent on anyone else, least of all your H. He will not take care of himself until he knows she is being taken care of. You and MIL have been so patient and understanding,I'm sure you can come up with something. Unfortunately there is a lot more to do.

Lori, you know, Sweetie seems to be such an enigma...no record of her anywhere, etc.I have to say that I think y'all ought to see what in the dickens she's really doing on her "ceramics" nights. Who knows? Maybe she's out robbing convenience stores. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Find out why your H thinks he "owes" it to her to make sure she's taken care of. I think that she must have something on him that he doesn't want any of y'all to know about. It may be that he didn't really do anything, but that she's somehow convinced him that he has.I would have to snoop, snoop, snoop!!! Between you and your H's family, there should be enough people to pull a little surveillance off. Find out what Sweetie's up to, and you may find out what's bugging your H.

Hi, Wex. Got to have a little sense of humor, now don't we. And I do love to fantisize about how to get rid of her.In-laws won't help confront Sweetie. H has told them early on that if she wasn't welcome, neither was he. They've lost one, they won't lose another, even if they do the wrong thing. Remember how they lied to counselors for the other? If I confronted alone, H would run for sure. This is the same girl who, when she killed the puppy we gave her (out of stupidity, took her 15 minutes) drove 1 1/2 hours to his jobsite and told him I was unkind to her on the phone (Only if "Sweetheart, is there anything we can do to help you?" is considered unkind) Yes, she was working on him even then. Took the dead puppy in her arms (my favorite of the litter btw) to his job crying and asked him to help her bury it! That was 1 week after she started working around him - he was calling her a poor stupid piece of trash. she read him well, though. Besides, H told me Tuesday that she noticed that he was miserable. She told him that he could leave if he wanted, he didn't have to keep the promises he made to her, she knew she would never have anything good in life and had realized that even when she was a little girl. AAUUGGGHHH!!I sure hope it pays off. I do love my H. But now I'm awfully worried. Wonder if he'll really show up for dinner w/ me and BIL tomorrow night? I'll bet no, but he sure was funny.Awoken. You're right. Actually, the day before he left me, (my b-day) he stood at the end of the bed talking to me before bedtime. "You know, we might could make this work. But what do I do about my friend? How can I help her?""Well, we'll help her together. How do you want to help her - financially? What does she need?""That, and someone she can trust to talk to and be with. Damn. I've messed everything up. All our lives. We can't do it. We can't make it work without crushing her."From what I can find out through H and in-laws and snoops: Now remember, she's 23, living on her own w/ 2 year old daughter.She cannot cook (remember the cookies) She didn't finish HS -has now decided to get GED - one day. Can't do anything really domestic. Makes a little more than min. Only has partial custody of daughter. (H talked about that, btw. Said it was because they had to prove paternity by blood test and so judge awarded partial custody to paternal g-parents (father fled the state. G-parents pay the child support and have her on weekends.) Can't believe he's that gullible. Doesn't add up. But he bought it. Used to do a little drugs, but is a nice girl now. Has never dated anyone except 2 year old's father and H. Slept w/ the other one one time, got pg and he skipped. They had been dating for 3 years. She asked H to show her how to sort laundry! Her real father left them to starve. (He doesn't see the similarities, even though MIL has pointed them out) Her mother is mean to her. (But, she helped her move, got her a job and babysits anytime. She fusses w/ her about breaking up a family and that makes her mean.) Paternal g-parents were nice to her, but now they're mean too. Want to see the baby more often. (Now these people pay the sitter, pay child support for father - more than ordered, buy clothes and toys for little one. Horrible sounding people, aren't they? Not at all thrilled that she's living w/ such an older man w/ their grandchild, so now they're mean, too.)He swallowed it all, hook, line and sinker.I wish I knew how to assure him she would be taken care of, but I'm afraid her interest is not in making life better for herself, but in having someone make it better for her. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. My brain hurts!Hi, Sweetpea. We did finally find a little about Sweetie - like her real name. It was her first one that she changed. But the only records are recent ones (4 addresses since July 1). We all doubt the ceramic classes too. Maybe we can have her followed?? If BIL will do it. After H's confession Tuesday that he doesn't really love her and wishes he had never left home, MIL is rejuvenated!!! No telling what's happening this week. Ya know, MIL has always felt she "had" something on him....you may be on to something there.Thanks a lot everyone.Lori

Just Learning - I'm confused. I was re-reading this novel of mine and didn't find my answer to you. I had posted about the health concerns 'cause you are right. Even trashed my HMO and it felt good! I'm sorry, I don't know where it went!Anyway, especially after the seizure, we finally got him to make an appt. They didn't find anything. When he told them about the headaches, they said they were probably caused by this long-term virus he has (so WHHYYY has he had it so long). Prescribed some Claritin and sent him on his merry way.He called me on Monday after leaving the hospital after the seizure - he was scared. I know 'cause he was yelling about everything! That's when I convinced him to get a physical. He took Sweetie w/ him (to MY doctor, she made an appt too, but I don't know what for - oh never mind). His complete physical took 20 minutes! Wow.Thanks for the encouragement and I'm so sorry my original post got lost. (You shouldn't be - it was, as usual, longer!)Lori

Lori you asked for ideas and I have one. It isn't easy but with all you and H's family have been through give it some thought.Sweetie needs a mother not someone else's husband!Your H needs to separate from Sweetie, he should move back home. MIL should allow Sweetie to move into garage.This is asking a lot from your MIL, but from what you have written she would do anything to help her son. She has already brought up a fine family. This situation would still allow H to help his family and Sweetie which it sounds like he needs and give him the opportunity to appreciate how much he is loved in his real home. When he gets stronger hopefully he will be able to help Sweetie move away when she has become more independent. Just one idea.

Awoken - Thanks for the thought - don't know how good an idea that would be, though. She likes her nice 3 b/r house in a nice neighborhood. Actually, she has one other female roommate. We just need to replace the THIRD roommate!