Lori,<BR>You know what I am going to say. You did GREAT. That must have been so hard to listen to. But your H needed you to listen and you did. He let it out and look what happen, He felt better and laughed and joked with you. He will remember that for a long time. <P>Don't stop Plan A now, It's may be starting to work. Yes, His brain is tofu. Yes, He doesn't feel like a good man. Yes, He says no matter what he can never come home....... Horse pucky. That's his evil twin GUILT talkin'. He still feels bad about all of it. His self worth is in the toilet. That may take awhile to get over. How long are you willing to wait??? I know your answer but I want you to feel good about what your doing. You are being there for him, wheather he relizes it or not. <P>Keep it up, Be his friend, And listen when he talks. <P>BABY STEPS...................<P>PS. Read your e-mail, I wrote you a novel.<P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

It's morning now. I need to get some sleep.<P>Lucks - no, I don't think he will move out on Sweetie. And yes, I agree, (and so do those in the family that spend time with her) that she's much smarter than he thinks. Now, not about most things, she really is from a different world, but in manipulating people, oh, yeah, I think she rivals just about anyone I've ever met.<P>TNT - so good to hear from you again. I'm glad you think I did ok. I've been so upset about the whole stupid thing. You know, I've never seen him like he is now (I don't suppose that's a big revelation now is it?). I'm trying my best to be his friend. Couldn't blown it last night. I said a lot of things that made him very uncomfortable. Hopefully the in-laws will back me up. His new-found temper easily intimidates his family, though. Heck, me too, but I just stared him down until he got over it! I talk to mom every other day or so and she's been calling H when she doesn't hear from him in a few days. Good idea. I'll pray for wisdom. Thanks a lot, C. <P>Rutger, my friend. I hope it was great. Last night I was nervous. This morning I feel sorta lost, oh well, we'll see.<P>I have some ideas as to how to deal w/ the evil twin, but I don't think most of them are legal and I'm pretty sure they're not moral!!<P>I know, baby steps. How long??? Well, you know me! I get tired and frustrated but I keep on plugging. Besides, compared to some people, I'm just getting started here!!<P>Gotta check my e-mail. Been waiting!<P>Lori

Lori - I agree with Lucks 2nd post. This is really a crisis situation for your H and something drastic needs to be done in a hurry. Would it be possible for your and H's families to get together and find some way simply to take him away from Sweetie Pie? (What an ironic name!) It's clear that he's her prisoner almost like a prince in a fairy tale being under the spell of a wicked witch. (She probably cheats on him too when she goes out and leaves him with her daughter. Unbelievable!) If you have to, I would even suggest finding a way to get rid of her, even drive her out of town, whatever. Buy her a one-way ticket to someplace at least 1000 miles distant and tell her, "There's a bus leaving tomorrow, be under it!" Escort her and her daughter to the terminal and make sure they get on. Wave goodbye. I really am serious about this. Otherwise, your H will just remain under her spell even if you manage to have him committed someplace. (Might be a good temporary solution though, just to get him away from her - but what's to prevent her from visiting him all the time to keep her power over him?) Maybe even call the cops on her. That is really a terrible situation as you describe it and I do feel very badly for you and your H too. You have my best wishes for a happy resolution to all this. Regards, blessings and hugs,<P>--Wex

Hi Lostva -<P>You know that I am going to say<P> ATTAGIRL!!!!!!<P>I think you were perfect with both your statements and listening techniques!!!!<BR>Absolutely Brilliant and your self-discipline was terrific!!!!!<P>I would like you to come to my house and give me lessons...I'll be my H and you could act and say what I should do when my time comes!!!! What do you think? We could videotape it and send it to others here who need it!!! LOL!!!<P>(I am serious, you know!!)<P>Anyway, I was thinking on this last nite and apparently real hard cuz I had a dream about all of us MB people coming to H and Sweetie's and picking up H to take him away from her!!!! <P>It was kinda neat cuz we (MB people) all had faces and bodies and everything!!!<P>LOL!!! It's so funny that you mentioned going to get him, Wex! I guess we're thinking alike here!!!!<P>I know that this is going to help him, Lori...I just know it!!!<P>You're a good Wife....You're a good Friend .....<P>And you are definitely a good person!!!<P>BIG HUGS and ONe more ATTAGIRL!!!!!<P>Sheba<P>

Wex - I do like the way you think. A one-way ticket to anywhere would be cool. And, you wanna know the truth, if we could have found a way to do it without getting arrested so far, we probably would have. MIL even tried to figure out how to raise a substantial sum of money, 'cause she figured she could BUY him out. She's probably right! Actually one of Sweetie's little plans backfired. She's been trying hard to get in good w/ MIL. "Would you teach me this, I don't KNOW how to do that...oh, could you show me?" (I've heard her - imagine the voice of a twelve year old!!) So she called mom while H was here last night (he didn't TELL her they were hunting here!) and said she wanted to do something "special" for H's b-day. She thought she could make some cookies w/ M&M's in them but she didn't know how. Since she goes to her ceramics class on Thursday night and H is home watching the little one, could she come over and have MIL take her to the market and show her what to buy and then go back to MIL's house and show her how to make cookies?<BR>H will never suspect where I am.<P>GIMME A BREAK. MY DAUGHTER COULD READ A SIMPLE RECIPE AT 5!! And H is a great cook (had to learn when I broke my legs!)<P>First of all, MIL could not believe she was asking, secondly, her suspicions were aroused. "Wonder how many ceramic projects she's bringing home, Lori?" <P>Thanks for the support. Any any more ideas of how to make her disappear.<P>Sheba - HI! Does pacing and crying a bit work with the self-discipline part????<P>Hey - I'll come visit. Sounds like fun to me. But I want to get smudged!!!!<P>What a picture! All the MB people ganging up on Sweetie. Now THAT I'd want to videotape. Faces and bodies and everything, huh? Pretty cool.<P>Thanks for the Attagirl. I'm trying. Keep sending good thoughts our way.<P>Luv Ya,<P>Lori

Lostva,<P>I second, third , fourth everything everyone else has said. You did a spectacular job and I know it was hard. But I am concerned about your H. It is not Sweetie Pie, but his health. He knows something is wrong with him and it may be physical not mental. Is there any chance that you could get him to see a physician? Yes, it could be hormonal, but it could also be something else. The family history shows that it is likely something is wrong.<P>Please consider it. The temper, the loss of drive, and many other things can come with physical problems. Even the depression sometimes can be associated with the fact that people do not feel well. I'm not a physician, but I can offer you some very simple examples, many times people who have blocked arteries will be short tempered and down. In more than several cases of people who had heart attacks, close relatives observe short temper, loss of drive, loss of self-esteem. <P>I think you have made a major breakthrough with you H. I suspect he now knows he can talk to you and you won't go away. Get angry maybe but you won't be intimidated. If there is the possibility that this is physical and it can be fixed he might see some hope in the situation. Rather than the mental problems such as his brother had, for which he has not been cured, and your H see no hope for. Do you see what I mean. If in the course of the physical they find, he has some chemical deficiency, that can be fixed to if you know what I mean.<P>You have done a wonderful job, and it seems your dream was telling you something very important.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>P.S. The constant headaches make one really suspicious. Medical insurance may not cover mental but they will cover this type of thing. Go for it.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 03, 1999).]

Hold on a minute Lostva...I'll be right with you........<P>BLLLLLLLAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! UGH!! I just hate throwing up!!! and that's even before I tasted any cookies of hers!!!<P>How about making the man a decent meal, you ignorant @%!!?@#$#$#!!!<P>OK Lori - I'm with you now!!!<P>I have a wonderful idea!!! I could send some "VEEEEERRRRY SPECIAL" M&M's for her cookies.....only thing is your MIL has to make her sample the batter!!! Make sure MIL DOES NOT GO NEAR these very special M&M's!!! (EVIL Laughter and rubbing of hands!!!)<P>That will take all the problems away!!!!<P>Meanwhile, in the real world, you could be making him that decent meal (like only you can!!) that will actually help to improve his health!!!<P>So, tell me.....did your MIL get stomach pains from all the laughter after that conversation? LOL!!! She is truly remarkable...and/or scared poopyless about her son, that she tolerates this "predator".<P>On to what you asked me about crying and pacing....of course it is self- discipline!!! Look at it this way - you didn't choke him or use the old 2x4 out of frustration....now that would lack self-discipline!!!! LOL!!! I think it would qualify as a Lovebuster also....although, I personally feel that it would be, in fact, a Plan A'ish thing to do....after all you are just trying to show how much you love him, right?<BR>Well, sometimes love hurts!!! LOL!!! <P>You come and visit me and I will set up all my fun stuff....bring D, it'll be a kick!! I'll get the "smudge sticks"!!!<P>We can get the old cards read and hey - maybe we can do that group meditation thing.....we could giggle like crazy!!!<BR>I even promise to get you one of the "true" twigs....maybe we could split a bush!!!! How does that sound?<P>I am happy that i am starting to remember my dreams again...this one I definitely would have wanted to be aware of....I can't fully see the faces anymore, I remembered better this morning...oh, well it was a great picture while it lasted!! Wouldn't it have been cool to actually do that?<P>Well, there's always the picture of it to use when you feel blue!!!<P>I'm always sending good thoughts and prayers and hugs!!!<P>Sheba

Oh, Sheba - you do crack me up!<P>Same request (not particularly healthy though) - every year - I used to want to do SOMETHING different,but he wouldn't have it - now, I'd LOVE to do it just once more. Oysters for appi's, Crab-stuffed Prawns, Standing Rib Roast, special potatoes (a made up kinda thing) , steamed broccoli, caesar salad he's NOT going to touch, homemade bread, wine and whatever cake d decides he should have. Yes, it's too much for 3 people, but I think he likes the leftovers. <P>I LOVE your recipe for cookies, though!!!!!<P>OK, clear the guest room - we're on our way.<P>BTW - the 2X4 was in the corner - break glass in case of emergency!!!<P>Luv Ya<P>Lori

Hey Lori, <P>I'm sorry I'm so late to this thread... I've been really sick and on pain meds (which is fun all by itself ) but wanted you to know that I read aaaaalllllll of what you wrote. You've done very, very well....<P>Just wanted you to know that I am thinking about you and supporting you! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

AAAALLLLLL of what I wrote, Sheryl? My, aren't you ambitious!!!<P>I'm so sorry you're sick. Got meds, not. Hope you feel better very soon. Thanks for your support. I'm working on it. <P>My brother called tonight (he's got pluresy - ok so I can't spell). Filled him in. He says, well, he's almost there - the bottom. Not bad. Took me 2 years. Wish I could have talked to w like he talked w/ you last night. It's time for me to talk to him maybe.<P>Tell me something. How does H feel about me now? Well, used to be close, but when he left he said he hated my whole family, now he's a little better. Ask him if he wants to build a fence. HUH? Ask him if he wants to get away for a weekend and help me build a fence at my new place. It's a guy thing. (I knew that - once I took him literally). See what he says.<P>SSOOOOOO - there's my next letter to h. Wanna go build a fence with b? Get away. No Lori, no nobody, just you b and the fence.<P>Sounds pretty therapuetic to me. Hope he'll do it.<P>Everyone. Thank you SOOOO much. I think I'll actually sleep tonight.<P>You guys are life savers.<P>Lori

Lori - Yummy meal! Love those oysters and crabs! Glad you can keep your sense of humor in this situation too. MBFers are great when it comes to this kind of support aren't we? (LOL's all around to everyone's witty posts and suggestions for Sweetie Pie!)<P>All seriousness aside, would it be possible for you simply to TALK to this woman, nauseating as that might be? I mean, everyone in your family and H's family could get together, go over to her place, tell her all of you just want to sit down with her and have a serious talk, because you're concerned about the effect she's having on your H. And then tell her what you see happening to him and that you believe it's because of his relationship with her. H's family members (esp. your MIL) could make it perfectly clear and in no uncertain terms that Sweetie Pie is extremely unwelcome in their family and that they don't want to have anything to do with her. They might even suggest in strong terms that she leave town. Simply telling her this would not get you arrested (as long as no actual threats were made) and might be very effective if there were 4 or 5 of you from both families impressing upon her the fact that her intrusion is highly unwelcome.<P>Whatever you do, keep after it. I think you might be amazed when all your hard work to save your marriage pays off, and you rescue your H from this hussy. (I think breaking up our spouses affairs is, in a way, rescuing them from the OP.)<P>--Wex

Lori you have done really well so far. Obviously everyone, including H, but maybe not sweetie, knows he needs help. You and your H's family must continue to show him you are non-threatening, a safe outlet, but he needs one more thing before he can consider moving to MIL. <P>He needs to know sweetie will be taken care of. The guilt he feels for letting you down is what he fears will happen if he "lets down sweetie". You and H's family must not run her out of town, not yet anyway. Get your H to share his concerns for her so that he knows you are willing to help her become more capable of looking after herself and not dependent on anyone else, least of all your H. <P>He will not take care of himself until he knows she is being taken care of. You and MIL have been so patient and understanding,I'm sure you can come up with something. Unfortunately there is a lot more to do.

Lori, you know, Sweetie seems to be such an enigma...no record of her anywhere, etc.<P>I have to say that I think y'all ought to see what in the dickens she's <B>really</B> doing on her "ceramics" nights. Who knows? Maybe she's out robbing convenience stores. <P>Find out why your H thinks he "owes" it to her to make sure she's taken care of. I think that she must have something on him that he doesn't want any of y'all to know about. It may be that he didn't really <B>do</B> anything, but that she's somehow convinced him that he has.<P>I would have to snoop, snoop, snoop!!! Between you and your H's family, there should be enough people to pull a little surveillance off. Find out what Sweetie's up to, and you may find out what's bugging your H.

Hi, Wex. Got to have a little sense of humor, now don't we. And I do love to fantisize about how to get rid of her.<P>In-laws won't help confront Sweetie. H has told them early on that if she wasn't welcome, neither was he. They've lost one, they won't lose another, even if they do the wrong thing. Remember how they lied to counselors for the other? If I confronted alone, H would run for sure. This is the same girl who, when she killed the puppy we gave her (out of stupidity, took her 15 minutes) drove 1 1/2 hours to his jobsite and told him I was unkind to her on the phone (Only if "Sweetheart, is there anything we can do to help you?" is considered unkind) Yes, she was working on him even then. Took the dead puppy in her arms (my favorite of the litter btw) to his job crying and asked him to help her bury it! That was 1 week after she started working around him - he was calling her a poor stupid piece of trash. she read him well, though. Besides, H told me Tuesday that she noticed that he was miserable. She told him that he could leave if he wanted, he didn't have to keep the promises he made to her, she knew she would never have anything good in life and had realized that even when she was a little girl. AAUUGGGHHH!!<P>I sure hope it pays off. I do love my H. But now I'm awfully worried. Wonder if he'll really show up for dinner w/ me and BIL tomorrow night? I'll bet no, but he sure was funny.<P>Awoken. You're right. Actually, the day before he left me, (my b-day) he stood at the end of the bed talking to me before bedtime. "You know, we might could make this work. But what do I do about my friend? How can I help her?"<P>"Well, we'll help her together. How do you want to help her - financially? What does she need?"<P>"That, and someone she can trust to talk to and be with. Damn. I've messed everything up. All our lives. We can't do it. We can't make it work without crushing her."<P>From what I can find out through H and in-laws and snoops: Now remember, she's 23, living on her own w/ 2 year old daughter.<P>She cannot cook (remember the cookies)<BR>She didn't finish HS -has now decided to get GED - one day.<BR>Can't do anything really domestic.<BR>Makes a little more than min.<BR>Only has partial custody of daughter. (H talked about that, btw. Said it was because they had to prove paternity by blood test and so judge awarded partial custody to paternal g-parents (father fled the state. G-parents pay the child support and have her on weekends.) Can't believe he's that gullible. Doesn't add up. But he bought it. <BR>Used to do a little drugs, but is a nice girl now. Has never dated anyone except 2 year old's father and H. Slept w/ the other one one time, got pg and he skipped. They had been dating for 3 years.<BR>She asked H to show her how to sort laundry!<BR>Her real father left them to starve. (He doesn't see the similarities, even though MIL has pointed them out)<BR>Her mother is mean to her. (But, she helped her move, got her a job and babysits anytime. She fusses w/ her about breaking up a family and that makes her mean.)<BR>Paternal g-parents were nice to her, but now they're mean too. Want to see the baby more often. (Now these people pay the sitter, pay child support for father - more than ordered, buy clothes and toys for little one. Horrible sounding people, aren't they? Not at all thrilled that she's living w/ such an older man w/ their grandchild, so now they're mean, too.)<P>He swallowed it all, hook, line and sinker.<P>I wish I knew how to assure him she would be taken care of, but I'm afraid her interest is not in making life better for herself, but in having someone make it better for her. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. My brain hurts!<P>Hi, Sweetpea. We did finally find a little about Sweetie - like her real name. It was her first one that she changed. But the only records are recent ones (4 addresses since July 1). We all doubt the ceramic classes too. Maybe we can have her followed?? If BIL will do it. <P>After H's confession Tuesday that he doesn't really love her and wishes he had never left home, MIL is rejuvenated!!! No telling what's happening this week. Ya know, MIL has always felt she "had" something on him....you may be on to something there.<P>Thanks a lot everyone.<P>Lori

Just Learning - I'm confused. I was re-reading this novel of mine and didn't find my answer to you. I had posted about the health concerns 'cause you are right. Even trashed my HMO and it felt good! I'm sorry, I don't know where it went!<P>Anyway, especially after the seizure, we finally got him to make an appt. They didn't find anything. When he told them about the headaches, they said they were probably caused by this long-term virus he has (so WHHYYY has he had it so long). Prescribed some Claritin and sent him on his merry way.<P>He called me on Monday after leaving the hospital after the seizure - he was scared. I know 'cause he was yelling about everything! That's when I convinced him to get a physical. He took Sweetie w/ him (to MY doctor, she made an appt too, but I don't know what for - oh never mind). His complete physical took 20 minutes! Wow.<P>Thanks for the encouragement and I'm so sorry my original post got lost. (You shouldn't be - it was, as usual, longer!)<P>Lori

Lori you asked for ideas and I have one. It isn't easy but with all you and H's family have been through give it some thought.<P>Sweetie needs a mother not someone else's husband!<P>Your H needs to separate from Sweetie, he should move back home. MIL should allow Sweetie to move into garage.<P>This is asking a lot from your MIL, but from what you have written she would do anything to help her son. She has already brought up a fine family. This situation would still allow H to help his family and Sweetie which it sounds like he needs and give him the opportunity to appreciate how much he is loved in his real home. When he gets stronger hopefully he will be able to help Sweetie move away when she has become more independent. Just one idea.

Awoken - Thanks for the thought - don't know how good an idea that would be, though. She likes her nice 3 b/r house in a nice neighborhood. Actually, she has one other female roommate. We just need to replace the THIRD roommate!