Third Session with Steve Harley! - Marriage Builders® Forums

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OK all,The single number one thingh I learned in today's session is this:I DON'T DO AS GOOD A PLANA AS I THOUGHT!!!!Steve dinged me all over the place and I MUST learn to do better or I will blow my opportunity here. Here is a summary from my session: REMEMBER THIS PERTAINS TO ME AND MY SESSION [disclaimer [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

]I need to stop trying to educate my H. [OK, there are plenty of you out there who are trying to do the same thing, so pay attention.]Steve made me see that all I am doing is all the "work" and offering ideas to my H for him to shoot down one by one. He needs to learn some things, but NOT FROM ME. This is a MAJOR LB!!!!!! Steve said, I'll bet the OW is NOT trying to educate your H. AUUGGGHHH [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

My job in Plan A is to listen to my H and try to see what he responds to and what he doesn't so I can best meet his needs. Steve says right now my H and I are not on the same page (major understatement [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

]. My H is learning things from me, but the PRICE of this is too high. By me educating him, I am in fact pointing out his faults and weaknesses, telling him what he doesn't know and telling him what his responsibilities are (like he is setting a bad example for the kids). This is akin to taking the candy away from the baby and even if it is good for the baby, the baby doesn't need this right now.Steve says when you are in Plan A, you need to ASSUME you will eventually move into PlanB. Everything I am doing now should be to help me in PlanB. Steve says I am trying and struggling to avoid PlanB so much that I am compromising the effectiveness of PlanA. That I am so afraid of planB that I am bargaining and trying to EDUCATE my H.The educating has to stop because my H is looking negatively at me because of it. I come across as selfish and the education is really benefitting me because I am in essence saying things to my H like:"You need to focus less on yourself" "You need to focus more on the marriage" "You need to focus more on me"This is HYPOCRITICAL because I am telling him he is selfish and yet all the benefits I am suggesting of the above benefit ME. [Major eyeopener here!]Steve's recommendations: *Continue working on me - no more education and judgements. [All - this is a major problem for me....please pray for me to do better!} * Avoid talking about the past * Try to understand that my H is probably unaware of how much damage he is causing me * If my H says he doesn't understand something right now, DON'T go there (example I gave Steve is that I told my H I feel as if I have lost "status" and he could not understand why I would feel that way.) * Talk about the kids, my life, his life - nothing that is likely to make us uncomfortable unless he brings it up. * As we interact, make offers to him to do things together, etc. - lay them at his feet and if he doesn't take the offer, drop it at that time and try again later. * Be my H's friend * Avoid saying or doing ANYTHING that would make him unhappy * Send him occasional cards and e-mails, but make the message short and sweet, so he knows I am still interested but he doesn't feel pressured. * Ask H to call Steve (again)OK, so I had posted somewhere here this morning that I suspected many of us are not doing as good a job in PlanA as we THINK we are. Certainly this is true for me. I recounted my last couple interactions with my H to Steve and he showed me where I stepped off the cliff over and over again. It is not important what I think about why and what happened or what I think I know...it is what my H figures out through all of this. You would think I would have learned this by now: How many times have I tried to reason, educate and talk sense into my H with no results??????? Maybe even getting negative results!!I guess I have been coming across snooty and know-it-all and condescending and pushy...... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I need to tattoo this on my brain!Last point:Steve's take on why my H doesn't want to file for D at this time - conflict and pain avoidance. H is going for the instant gratification of the affair and he is unsure whether filing for divorce is in his best interest right now. I still have some opportunity here and my job is to be the best wife I can be so that H may decide that I am in his best interest, not the OW.Roll Me Away------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

RMA,Sounds like you had a fruitful session! Doesn't that hurt when you find out in therapy that you are doing something wrong! I've had that happen to me a couple times.Well you've got to rework your plan. So hang in there and keep praying about it.God Bless,Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>conflict and pain avoidance. H is going for the instant gratification of the affair and he is unsure whether filing for divorce is in his best interest right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He told me basically the same thing about the Mrs. But he also said that wankboy doesn't seem to show any "commitment" on his part. He's just letting her "tag along." If he did show any commitment & asked my Wife to divorce me, she do it in a heartbeat.He's been single for 20+ years so a wife wouldn't interest him (unless it's someone elses). I have read this in a few books also. A married person is "safe" in that they don't have to have any commitment.Anyhoo, listen & learn from Steve. He's probably heard it all before. Make yourself someone "safe" your h can talk to or be with.------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Very Cool. I sure am learning a lot from your sessions!!!!Thanks!! Lori

RMA,Having been in 'Plan A', I certainly can't fault you for your mistakes. I think I made all the same mistakes. I know I tried to 'educate' my H by purchasing books, & printing off reams of Harley's stuff. Although, my H indicated he wanted to read the stuff. I know how hard it is to try to ignore the OW issue when it constantly looms over your head, & you keep getting slapped in the face with 'signs' of her ugly presence. You know, I never considered that I would be going to Plan B. I really thought if I did the Plan A well enough, it would end. But, he's right. In these types of cases, I think the Plan B's are inevitable. So, if you look at it that way, you won't get as frustrated as I did when I wasn't getting the results I wanted in Plan A.How much longer do you have in Plan A??

Well I am not trying to educate my spouse. I am just trying to let him know that I am interested. Had an interesting phone call from MIL she talked to H asked why in the h@!! it sent me that letter, told him that he was cruel and that everything he did to me he was doing to her too. I don't think he really responded to much except to say he knew or he didn't know. Iguess I'll keep doing ths short notes or cards ever so often then soon go to plan B. Of course it wiil pobably make no difference to him except relief that he won't hear from me anymore. I am curios how Sunday will be at my inlaws/ I drop s off that morning hopefully before H gets there, but I will be ready for him. Smile sweetly and look fantasticKeep trying on plan A practice makes perfect.------------------ di

Bob,Yes, it stings like crazy to keep making stupid mistakes. I tell you, for all the effort and trying, you'd think I could manage a few things right???? Well, I did do a couple things right and Steve told me so, but of course I can't remember them right now! This is all so tiring.....Yes, I will keep praying and would appreciate some of your prayers, too. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Chris,Interesting - I guess there is a lot of commonality in these affairs. I wondered if my H didn't want a divorce so he wouldn't have to feel as if he had to marry the OW???? Who knows why the affair participants want all the pleasure of the relationship without the responsibilities...?Lori,I post a summary here to maybe help those who aren't able to call Steve. If any of this helps you...great!!!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

sidney,I have to continue to remember that Plan A is NOT designed to bring my H back to me, but to "demonstrate to him that it is in his primary interest to be married to me." [Direct quote from Steve Harley.] I think sometimes I forget that. I m truly impatient and want to get SOMETHING back for all my efforts. It has been 10 months and it feels like a whole lifetime!!!!Diana,Send me an e-mail with the details of the phone call. I want to hear more. Yes, I would keep sending him the cards. Frrom Steve: talk about ANYTHING but the relatiojnship or problems betwen you two unless absolutely necessary. You are supposed to make him LOOK FORWARD to talking to you or to receiving a card or letter from you!!!!!!Desiree ------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

Yup. It's a moment of clarity after a few Christmas bevy's at lunch day.I made that same mistake for sure. Educate my ex, work on the marriage, all that crap.See Heartpain's "Revelation on the way to the shrink" thread. I bet this all ties together some how.Thanks everybody and have a happy holiday season.

I have done little in the way of trying to "educate" my H, I have tried to talk about non-controversial things, I and the kids have invited him a few times - and each time I have any positive interaction with him, within a day or two he reacts negatively. He has said for instance that he does not want to ever again eat dinner at the same table, because it "sends the wrong message to the kids". He has essentially told me that he doesn't want the kids to think we get along. I suspect that whenever I do anything nice for my H, if the OW finds our she tries hard to convince him that I am trying to manipulate him. He has convinced himself that I am persecuting him - he even turned around my offer to pay off some of our credit card debt, and accused me of not sticking to our agreement. Plan A, Plan B, Plan whatever - none of them are of any use when there is a desparate OW who is interested in commitment, and who will go to any lengths to try to keep him, and a spouse who is willing to go along with whatever she tells him to do or think.

RMA-I love that you are doing these sessions!! I have some questions, though. If you aren't suppose to talk about the relationship, or it's problems, how in the world can you ever move forward? This confuses me.Also, if you were my friend, and I did something that upset you, you would tell me, right? And, you would probably tell me who and why it upset me, right? Which in a round about way is 'educating' me, right?I can understand about saying things like, you are selfish, you are making a mistake, etc, etc, but how can we learn all these things if no one will tell us. I guess what I am trying to say is, if educating our spouses is wrong, what is right? I mean, we would never learn anything is someone or something didn't help us along.Sorry, I don't even know if this makes any sense. I am just confused on the educating thing. I can see where we shouldn't be judgemental and pressuring, but we all need to be educated. Frankly, I think that is what my H main problem is. No woman has 'educated' him on proper behaviors.Sorry for the ramble. Glad your sessions are going so well!!God Bless,Cheryl

RMA -- Good for you!!! As for finding out in therapy that you've been doing something wrong. I like that. I use it as a barometer as to whether the therapist is looking at me objectively or not. If I never get any correction or criticism, then I know that I'm being told what they think I want to hear, because I know I'm not perfect and make lots of mistakes.You just do the best Plan A you can. I'm hoping beyond hope that it works....--DeWayne--

ceecee I'm with you on this. When is the betrayer suppose to meet our needs? Do we wait around for them to be enlightened? I'm confused. Is there a fine line between being loving and being a doormat? Compromise should be in there somewhere. Sorry just venting. I'm just tired of hearing people saying they have grown apart when it means it is too much work to save a relatioonship. Roll Me Away Best of luck to you!Love faythe

nonplused,Sorry you have made the same mistakes as me...<sigh>Yes, I agree with you there is some cross-cponnection with Heartpain's thread and I have posted there as well.Hope your holidays go well, also! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

nellie,I think things with my H and I are a little different than with you and your H. My H has enjoyed coming around here - but only when HE wants to. He pops in all the time - every week. I think he still WANTS to feel a prt of the family, even though he is the one who chose to leave. I know about just a few folks knowing. Would you believe that 2 of my H's kids who live out of state do not even know we are separated???? If he ever calls them, he calls them from here. Still praying for you by name each day.ceecee,I will try my best to explian. But go back and re-read my original post. My H needs to learn from all of this, JUST NOT FROM ME. As Steve pointed out to me, each time I try to convince my H of my point of view, it is always that we should be working on the marriage and he should care more about me and the kids, etc. As Steve pointed out - this is another way of saying, quit being so selfish and do things MY way, what I want, to benefit ME. Steve said, Desiree, isn't this hypocritical becuase you want him to do exactly what he is doing, except make YOU the focus instead of HIMSELF? YIKES!!!!! Yes, if you look at it that way....it is hypocritical. My H needs to learn a balanced approach to a relationship, which he isn't looking at right now. It's all about him. If I try to get him to "see" that by pointing out things or telling him my numerous opinions [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

then I am really critizing him.If we were in a stable relationship, this wouldn't necessarily be so bad. But, isince things are so strained between us right now, this is the KISS OF DEATH!!!!! If I take the approach that I am "dating" or "trying to date" my H, would I start out by criticizing and trying to educate my new boyfriend or POTENTIAL boyfriend????? NO. So, since my H isn't acting or "considering" himslef married to me right now, I need to take the approach of trying to attract him as a POTENTIAL mate, again.To be "attractive" back to him, I need to be positive and focus on all his positive qualities, and he does have many. After all, isn't that EXACTLY what the OW is doing right now???? She is minimizing all his faults and maximizing all his plusses and I MUST do that, too, if I want to have any opportunity here.Heartpain,I have been posting on your thread and yes, we are reading eachother's thoughts! Our S's may NEVER come back. This might work out for them and they go off happily into the sunset. I have to accept that as a possibility, although I don't think it is necessarily a probability in my case. But, of course all these efforts mean diddly squat if our S's aren't even looking inour direction! All we can do is keep trying and as you say, these efforts ofr improvement will benefit us whether we end up with our S's or not. I don't care if you are feeling so discouraged about your W, I am still gonna pull for you two anyway! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

faythe,I know what you mean about OUR needs. Unfortunately, the sad reality is that this time is all about THEM and their needs. We play a very tiny role right now. As long as the OP is still in the picture, or even if they aren't but still the focus for the recovering S, it is so very, very hard for us to be a consideration by the betrayer. I guess I get madf and angry about that sometimes, but then I remind myslef that I still have a choice here. I can walk away and give it up. I have no doubts that I would be able to find another partner and have love and happiness again. I just am not ready to give up on my mule-headed H. His affair is about anger towards me for an EA I had over 2 years ago. He stuck by me during that time and now I am sticking by him during this most devastating time. I really do love my H. In my heart, I do believe that he really loves me but is afraid to trust me again. If I run out now, it will only convince him that I didn't love him. I will stick with this until I don't love him anymore. I will keep trying to better myslef. That is all any of us can do....Roll Me Away ------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

I went back and really read my Harley tonight. 1. " While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconilliation is definitely possible."2."If the first plan is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan is followed until the affair is ended"3.page 76-66 It says that you are to avoid upset the betrayer andtry to meet their needs if they let you. Telling about time limit is seen as a threat.4. "But even when plan A doesn't stop an affair, having used makes marital reconcilliation easier if separartion from the lover ever does occur."5.'Another advantage it plan A is thaat when it ends, the betrayed spouse leaves the wayward spouse with the best possible memories of how he or she was treated."6.Most affairs last LESS then SIX months after they are supposed to light of day. A few may survive two years of sunlight but that is rare when a betrayed spouse lets go and gives the affair a chance to destroy itself."7. The book also talks about the fact that depending on how long the affair last, the betrayed may start having doubts about whether or not they want the betrayer back. I think most of us have tried to do something else rather then a true Harley plan. He even says in the book that it is a now line that we have to follow if we want it to work. This is almost like study for an exam. You have to keep reading and rereading for all the information that we missed the first time and the next time and the third time. Each time I read the book the more I see things I did not see before and the mosre I begin to understand. Of course Desiree having you tell us what Steve say to you has helped me see things better.------------------ di

Diana,Thanks for typing that in. As you know, my H took all the infidelity books when he moved out. So, I don't have any of my reference material anymore.I am glad I am doing these sessions with Steve. I HIGHLY recommend them to everyone. I feel I am getting good advice and insights I would not have without talking to Steve. Oh, Dr K......I asked Steve if he was K and he laughed and said No and I told him I wasn't sure if I believed him [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

!Roll Me Away------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

Desiree, you have mail. When I have a few minutes of quiet time I am going to reread SAA. Things are begining to be a little clearer now. Since you are without the book maybe you need to buy you self a present and get another copy of it. I think it would help.------------------ di

RMA-Ok, I still need some clarfying here. I am concerned that Plan A makes the betrayed spouse seem that they have no self esteem- in the eyes of the betrayer.I think that if you have to walk on egg shells, watching EVERYTHING you say, as not to upset the apple cart, you are giving them a FALSE idea of who you are.I am not suggesting that LB should be tolerated by either party, ever, but I think there is a difference b/w LBing and sharing what is on your mind. If you can't share opinions and thoughts, what is left.I am sure that when you were dating, your H found your mind as an attrative part of the package. I know that my H found me attrative, at least in part because of my opinions and the fact that I was able to share them.I guess I am just worried that over playing Plan A can make your spouse lose respect for you, and as faythe said, there is a fine line between Plan A and being a doormat.I think that my Plan Aing is only feeding the huge ego of my H. He is very attractive and women fall all over him. Obviously, he doesn't have trouble finding another to 'meet' his needs.Sorry, I am rambling. I am venting on your thread. Sorry.Cheryl

Cheryl. I got my book out have really started reading. I think we all have misunderstood plan a. What it says is no angry outburst, disrespect and demands. You are not to upset your H and if possible meet his emotional need if he lets you. The book goes on to say that is why there is a time limit and that writing letters and talking on the telephone was an easier way of communication because it kept the love busting down. You are to make them feel comfortable with you, show consideration for their feelings but don't expect anything in return.I keep on reading maybe I will figure this out yet!------------------ di

SDS/RMA-I understand about not LBing. I also understand about not getting anything back.I guess what I don't get, is that, if you get your spouse back, by not LBing (yes, I agree that you should NEVER do this), by giving yourself, w/o getting back, why would they EVER give anything back.I appears to me, that the selfish side of them could stick around, if they know that you can love them w/o having to give you back anything.Does this make sense?

Cheryl, I haven't gotten that far yet remember I am just working on plan a havene't hought about what would happen if he came back. The idea of plan a is to leave them feeling that you have been considerate of their feelings and have tried to meet their emotional needs. If they are deep in the affair & have not given up the op they will leave. All you have done is ive them pleasent memories that when things start to fall apart with OP they can remember and say hey I was better off with my spouse. Something like that. Then when the come back you go to the next step which is recovery. I get the idea that you go into plan a if the spouse will not give up the OP and that if you go into plan a you will most likely go to plan B. So plan a is to prepare the way for plan b. In other words if they won't give up the op then they will leave. And as long as they won't give up Op their is no chance for reconcilliation. I guess those of us whose spouses have left should go into plan b if we want a real chance. This is a great discussion but I am going to have to take a break. I have to go to a 24 hour Wal Mart to do some shopping. I will check later to see if anyone is still up or will check in tomorrow.Discussing this helps me to understand what Dr. H was saying in his book.------------------ di

I know that I am in the minority here, but I just can't see myself trying to be with a spouse that maintains his/her affair after discovery. I am having great difficulty working on rebuilding a better marriage than I had before even after my W hasn't had any known contact since discovery. Resentment is my main problem at the moment, even though I fully realize my part in creating an atmosphere that would lead to an affair. To try to rebuild with someone who obviously does not put the same value on the relationship and openly admits it has to be the most painful and humiliating episodes in a person's life, and I believe life is too short to go through that type of pain. To know and have it thrown in your face that your spouse is still sleeping with someone else for me would be totally unbearable, I would have to move on, hell it is hard enough to deal with even though it has stopped. Either the people who put up with this are afraid to be alone and move on or they possess a love that I simply do not have in me............I wish you all luck!!

F A-Well, I can only speak for myself here, but here goes. I am not afraid to move on with my life. I am moving on with my life. I am assuming that our divorce will go through, that my H will not give up OW, and that I will meet someone else. But, this is only an assumption. As far as having a love that you don't possess, I don't buy that either. My love for my H is a deep committment to him , to my D and to my family. It is also the kind of love that God gives me. I don't have those 'tingly' love feelings, like you have when you first "fall in love". I do have great passion for him, but it is different. I am trying to get my H to see, that, no matter what he does, what I do, we can and should be forgiven for our sins. No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. I also believe that my H continues his affair now, because he has moved out, he has filed and he is lonely. He is scared to come back and face the piper, so to speak. I actually feel bad for him, knowing that may be exactly what he wants to do, but is to guilt-ridden to do it. I am rambling tonight. Sorry. I guess my point it this. If you can't take the pain, then don't. If you want out, it's ok. But, if you can hang on, for however long, i think it will only make you a stronger, better person.God Bless,CherylPS- I am going to reread SAA! I need to be re'educated' [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Cheryl...I see this 100% the same way with my W... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It's sad... What may be sadder is holding on too long... to the point of hurting our ability to love and be loved again.I don't even want to consider this possibility... but I'm beginning to think it can happen.I hope to get some good advice from Steve Harley on this Monday 12/27. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I'm praying hard for you tonight... I see what you are saying so clearly...Jim

RMA,Thanks for shareing you sessions.Do we have the same plan-a guide?I can totaly see Steves points.I need to reread the part on LBs and plan-a.Is calling dude LRB around my W a LB?heheBill------------------ BB

What I don't understand is how you can avoid upsetting your spouse when your very existence makes them angry. And I don't necessarily agree that letters/email/phone calls are better - often my H has a harder time being cruel to me when he is standing right in front of me. Plan B may be good for the betrayed, but I think it is horrible for the children. I can not totally avoid difficult subjects and still do a decent job of raising the children. As long as you try to avoid LB's, I don't think it makes any difference at all what you do as long as the spouse is in the affair, especially if they are consumed by "narcissistic rage".

YIKES!!!!! My server went down last night and kicked me off and I could not get back on to see all these posts.Let me try to answer as best I understood what Steve was trying to say to me:My situation may be different from some - my H has moved out, is NOT living with the OW (she lives in another state), but spending time with her weekly. He has not filed for divorce and told me two days ago that he does not want to file for divorce right now, that he is inlove with the OW, and that he is having this affair because he can never forgive me for having an EA two years ago.Since my H moved out about 10 weeks ago, we have had little contact. Bascially, I was AVOIDING contact with him, trying to do a modifed PlanAPlanB - being nice when I saw him. 2 weeks ago I decided to call Steve Harley and Steve told me to move directly back to PlanA. FOR ME, the reason to go back to PlanA was that we feel my H's affair is a retaliation affair due to ME having emotionally left him 2 years ago, so WHY in the HELL am I doing that AGAIN, NOW by avoiding him, if I want to save my marriage????????????So, here I am trying to PlanA, but my H is further from me emotionally now. So, in order for me to try to re-engage some interest here, I need to make it "safe" and "happy" for him to interact with me. Thus, our talks AT THIS POINT (not forever!!!) need to be like people who are "dating". To at least keep him wanting to have some contact with me so I can show him all my positives again (I do have a few, although my negatives have also been clearly spelled out here, too).MAKE ONE THING CLEAR: PLANA WILL NOT BRING MY H HOME. AS HEARTPAIN AND OTHERS HAVE POINTED OUT - MY H WILL ONLY COME HOME IF HE WANTS TO. SINCE HE AND THE OW ARE IN LOVE, THEIR RELATIONSHIP WILL HAVE TO FLOP FIRST.OK, so I am doing PlanA to give my H BETTER last memories of me when I go to PlanB. It is not good to have him remember my emotional withdrawal as our last interactions, when I go to B, as my emotional withdrawal is part of his ORIGINAL BEEF with me (my EA).To do a good PlanA might seem like being a doormat and enabler and Steve and I did discuss this. Yes, in a way, they are definitely BOTH. Yet, I am trying to leave a legacy here for my H in the event he ever turns around. So, I can do this for a while longer. When I feel too debased, then I go to PlanB.In regards to why am I doing this??? I am NOT afraid to be alone - Hell, I AM alone right now. I haven't lain next to anyone or had sex in exactly 10 weeks today (NOT that I am counting!). I do feel that I could move on and have a happy life if we end up divorced. I know I will find love, again. I am spending alot of time with friends and family having fun. I am just unpartnered right now.BUT, I have already been divorced once and getting that little peice of paper DOES NOT ease the suffering one little bit. You still have to go through the entire process no matter if you get back together of if you get divorced. I would rather rebuiild with the man I know than go through all of this and maybe find someone else and have to live with their imperfections, too. There is no guarantee that the next time will be better for anyone. I would rather keep my family intact and work with my H, because at this point, I still love him. Despite his current actions, my H is a very good man and we ahve ahd a loving relationship. But, the man AIN'T perfect, and NEITHER was I! Perfect people DO NOT exist.I know I will not love him forever ifr this continues, and until I feel like it isn't worth it, this seems to be the best way to go for me.... ceecee and all, If your S is talking to you and showing willingness to work on the marriage, then I think PlanA has to take on a little different tone that it does for me. If, however, you have a S who shows no inclination to do anything towards the marriage and is totally immersed in the affair like my H, then according to Steve, this is the BEST avenue to go. After all, talking about the mistakes and the hows and whys and whos and when and wheres doesn't make the wayward S give up the affair. PlanA doesn't make the wayward S give up the affair. Neither does planB. It is your S's decision that YOU are better for him or her than the OP, and PlanA allows you to set that legacy in place.Roll Me Away------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

Again, I know that I'm in the minority here, but it just seems to me going through a Plan A with a spouse that is openly having an affair and waiting for that relationship to flop and having your spouse come back after that relationship didn't work out is to me allowing yourself to being disrespected, used and humiliated. Again, I am going through these emotions with a W that has stopped contact with the OM. But even though there has been no contact, I still can't help but wonder if she would have left me if the OM cared about her like she did for him, if he would have left his wife, would she have left me. These are thoughts that sometimes creep into my head and make it difficult for me to follow through on my own Plan A, but to accept her back after her leaving me because another relationship didn't work out, is something I know I definitely wouldn't do. I may very well be way off base, but it seems to me that people are allowing themselves to be used as a security blanket when all else fails. It reminds of the old song, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." Do you really want to be with someone who views you as their second choice, someone to be with only because it didn't work out with the person that they really wanted to be with, do you really want to be that second choice? Again, I may be way off base, but those are the thoughts that cross my mind when I read some of the things posted here. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

F A,No, you haven't offended me. Many people feel like you - the affair is happening and the S needs to quit right now or the marriage is over. My H feels even stronger - his approach is that I had an EA and he wasn't #1 in my life and he can never accept or get over that, so that is why he "left".I am doing what I am doing out of MY CHOICE. I can file for divorce...and I may yet do that. I could have said to my H "OK, youcan live here and sleep with me and have the OW on the side." I defintely did NOT say this, and in fact said the opposite, which is why my H decided to leave. I could wait a little longer here, which is what I am doing. I am using my time as constructively as possible to stabalize my emotions and form a new routine for myself. I am spending time in counsleing to better myself. I am enjoying time alone, which I never had before. I am spending more time with family and friends. Am I sitting here waiting for him to come home????? Yes, in all honesty...a big part of me is wishing that. In large part, I do feel my H will "get over" my EA and eventually forgive me and want to rebuild with me. Realistically, I must face the fact that he might never do that. I know that time alone will resolve things one way or the other.For me, I think about how my life would be different if I was divorced? The only thing I would do that I am not doing right now is to date. I have to tell you, I would enjoy some affection and attention so VERY much right now. But, on the other hand, if I was single, I am so desperate for the attention and affection, I might just hop into the sack with anybody if I was single. This would not be good for me, because I am not the bed-hopping type at all. Much better for me to spend this time focusing on healing myself. In my heart, I honestly believe that my H and I will get back together one day. But, I can not discount that I might be fooling myself, too. Anyway, this is why I continue to stay married to him right now, although he IS dishonoring me and disrespecting me in the vilest of ways imaginable.Roll Me Away------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

F AOne guy to another-I feel your pain. You're not wrong to have these feelings (VERY NORMAL) but your Taker is in charge.To see what I mean read Dr. Harley's articles about the Taker and all other infidelity articles immediately.You won't "feel" better,but you'll understand what's going on inside, and if you're interested, the process to try and heal your marriage.P.S. One big tough capable mean "man's man" macho guy to another-most likely you want to heal your marriage or you wouldn't be here.You've come to a place that can really help you do it. Good luck and feel free to ask more-I've been there. JBarn

JBarn I have read all the articles on this website and I understand what's going on, but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with everything that is in the articles. I don't believe it is a matter of my Taker being in control, it is a matter of having some type of self respect for yourself as a human being. I agree totally with the principles here about rebuilding a marriage when you have two people who want to do just that, but what I have been commenting on is the situations where the betrayer is continuing their affairs after discovery and the betrayed follow either a Plan A or a Plan B with the hopes of one day rebuilding their marriages. Like I stated in an earlier post, I may be way off base, but taking back a spouse that only is returning because their relationship with the OP didn't work out is playing second fiddle, it's being there only because they don't have the person that they REALLY want. I am just posing the question, do people really want to take back someone and live their lives knowing that the only reason their spouse is there is because it didn't work out with someones else and not because they really wanted to be there in the first place? Addiction or no addiction, do you really want to be with someone who would walk out on you and your family, an affair is bad enough, but to choose the OP and abandon an entire family is taking it to a whole other level.............just something to think about.

I've lived them both for extended periods of time, counseled with Steve, read nearly everything in print and have plenty of comments. Bear with me.Plan A is meant to be temporary. It's most fundamental requirement is NO LOVEBUSTING. It's secondary goal is to attempt to meet emotional needs if the betrayer will let you. While an affair is active, most betrayers WILL NOT be responsive to you meeting their needs. Initially, they may reject your attempts (like not acknowledging gifts and cards). Eventually, they may thank you for things as they would any other acquaintance on the planet. But the meeting of emotional needs has very small, if any, payback while an affair is active. Harley hopes it will be a pleasant memory at some future date when the affair blows-up.It is counter-intuitive to try to fix a marriage by not talking about the problems. But the reality is the affair is all consuming. So bringing up the marital problems or talking about the future are lovebusters when the spouse doesn't want to talk about them. In essence, they become a selfish demand - a demand to talk and to impose our will and superior judgment on them through persuasion. THE BETRAYED CANNOT MAKE THE SPOUSE STOP THE AFFAIR AND WORK ON THE MARRIAGE, NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY OR DO. Only the betrayer can stop the affair, and they have to really want to. If they come back through coersion or persuasion, it won't last. The addiction is too strong.The educating them comment has also been a very tough one for me. But again, you have to remember what we're dealing with. The spouse DOESN'T WANT TO BE EDUCATED. They want to continue their affair without being bothered by things like responsibilities, guilt, other people's opinions, or some written prognosis that affairs end. They are in a fantasy and want to stay there.Furthermore, educating a spouse is a disrespectful judgment. It says that I've taken the trouble whereas you haven't, I know more, and if you would only get your act together, you'd see that I was right. Definitely a lovebuster.So Plan A is really about not lovebusting. That is feasible to do for extended periods of time. With very few exceptions, I haven't lovebusted in more than a year.But unrequited attempts at needs-meeting is not feasible to do indefinitely, in fact, not for very long at all. I don't know too many people that can continue to send their spouse gifts, cards and letters, not get acknowledgement of receipt, while knowing an affair is active, and not get angry. Furthermore, for some of us that have literally been abandoned with all responsibilities and have watched their spouses ditch children, continuing to needs-meet as the respect level literally plummets and resentment builds becomes practically impossible. That is where I'm at.The comments made about being a doormat and maintaining self-respect are relevant, in my opinion. I have concluded that there is never a need for lovebusting, as it is only destructive. But conversely, there is no need to continue to treat a cheating spouse like a king indefinitely. It does impact your self respect after a while. When you've done it for more than three months or so, you get disgusted WITH YOURSELF. Then it's time for Plan B, if you still love your spouse.Harley's plans are great guidelines for those who really want to save the marriage and can forgive what the betrayed has done. But, Plan A is extremely hard to do. It requires the most unnatural of reactions - for a betrayed spouse to give, give, give in the face of continued hurt from the betrayer. It requires you to be positive and up when you feel destroyed. And it demands that you stop discussing the marital problems and hold your tongue at a time when it's obsessing you. Most people do not have the self control to do this for long.Unfortunately, the affair really rules the outcome and there is nothing we betrayed can do about the affair. While it's active, nothing really works. When you're in Plan A, you're really working on establishing a good memory for later on, when the affair is over. It will not cause the affair to end. And even if the affair ends, there is no guarantee that the betrayer is coming back, although they almost certainly will be more open to it then.Furthermore, while affairs are active, many betrayers leave the human race. They may become cruel and angry, blame the betrayed for everything, completely irresponsible, lose their values, ditch their children, drop friends and family, and plenty of other horrible things that they would never otherwise have done. To watch this close-up is very destructive to the betrayed's love bank. If you stay too close to them with Plan A and endure this behavior, you lose your love quickly. Another reason not to stay in Plan A too long.So for all of you doing this, listen carefully to Steve. He'll tell you how to do a good Plan A, but don't stay there too long. If the affair doesn't end, protect yourself and your lovebank. The trick to this is to understand it's all a big waiting game. Which will happen first - the affair ends or you lose your love? You want to set yourself up to wait the maximum amount of time for the affair to end, while you still have some desire left to work on the marriage.Good luck to all.

F AI know I know-but I'm sorry, I don't buy it! You sound like I did (by the way, I'm dealing with a W with infidelity issues and things are starting to improve).Just the fact that you seem to be consumed by thoughts about "self-respect","yourself", "I" this,"I" that, tells me your Taker is The Man. Could this have contibuted to your trouble?-it sure did for me.OK OK,not to beat on you-you're doing a good enough job for me. I can tell your torn up about your W coming back to you as fall-back etc. etc. Do you want her back?F A, the only hope for you to be the type of H that I sense you want to be, is to have a W to be one for. Do you want to try with the one you have, or not? If so, take her back and go to work. Like Dr. Harley says, if the marriage is going down,at least let it go down fighting.Would any self-respecting men proud of his abilities have it any other way? JBarnP.S. I just saw your thread on "Infidelity Personalities"-you're determined to "figure it out" aren't you?[This message has been edited by JBarn (edited December 24, 1999).]

Distressed,You posted exactly what I have been trying to say and you did a mighty fine job there. The betrayer will have to decide if he or she wants out of the affair and no Plan anything is going to make that happen. I also loved your comment about the betrayer "leaving the human race during the affair." How true...my H has isolated himself from so many. He has "kept" himself to a very select few - mostly the OW and the guy friend he is living with. Thanks for adding your 2 cents in here and helping to clarify.JBArn,Your comments about F A's post - all the "I"s is interesting. And, agree that he probably wants things to work out, too. Like so many on this post, I always said in the past,I would never stay with my H if he cheated on me, and here I am....F A,Please go back and read the initial post on this thread. Steve showed me where my needs right now are actually the SAME as my H's, except with ME, instead of him, as the center of the universe.Right now, I want my H to come running after ME, beg ME to forgive him, pledge his undying love and fidelity to ME, knock his socks off trying to be the best H in the world to ME, go 1,000% plus some more making this up to ME...ME, ME, ME, etc! SEE???? It's all about ME. Isn't that the converse of the affair right now, which is all about HIM??????Neither of these attitudes - all about him nor all about me is healthy. Someway, we would need to get back to a more BALANCED relationship where we are both caring about each other and neither is being a doormat.In order to get there, my H needs to DECIDE he wants to work on the marriage and he hasn't decided that yet.You pose some good questions about doormat, self-respect, "winning by default" if the affair flops and why would anyone take an errant spouse back in general. I think the answers to these questions are personal and different for everyone.FOR ME, I have been divorced already and know ther is no "perfect" relationship out there waiting for me or anyone else. People are human and life throws you curve balls when you aren't looking. I look back on my life with my H and kids and find it has been satisfying for me. Why did I screw it up by having an EA 2 years ago??? Through current counsleing I am identifying what lead me to make that mistake. I guarantee you I will NEVER repeat it again.I still have very strong feelings for my H although I despise what he is doing. As long as I have feelings of love, I will try in PlanA or planB. As Distressed pointed out...this will resolve in time. Maybe I will stop loving him before his affair ends and file for the divorce. I do not know the future.You have options, too. You can file for divorce and feel like once scorned, never again. You can try to rebuild with your W, but hold a grudge about it forever. You can try to rebuild with your W and truly try to forgive and build something better. You are lucky because your W is there. Maybe you are the type that wouldn't wait like so many of us do. That is a personal choice. I think it is less about self-respect than it is about POTENTIAL that we see. Although my H is doing nothing for US, I do see tremendous potential for us to reconcile. I know he is hard-hearted and unforgiving, but he will get over this in time. RIGHT NOW, I am willing to wait.Sometimes I do feel a doormat. I am treating my H like a king and showing him my love while I am getting nothing back and the OW is having the time of her life at the expense of me and our children and grandchildren. As Distressed pointed out, that is why PlanA is meant to be temporary.Then to planB as I continue to work on enjoying my life. I always have the option here at any point to say "Hey, I don't want to do this anymore and I am ready to quit." I have felt that way already, but it was brief and not sustained. When I get to that point and know it really is how I feel, I will move on it. I think alot is attitude - do I see myself as a victim or in control with choices?? In a sense, I am a victim because things are happening that I do not want to happen and I can not stop them. On the other hand, life ALWAYS causes things to happen that I don't want to happen and I can't stop them....bUT I can choose how I wish to ract to them. I am CHOOSING to hang around and wait some more. In that light, I feel empowered, not victimized, because I can always say to my H, "I am picking up my toys and not playing with you anymore."Roll Me Away ------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

RMA, Great thread!!!.....and thank you for sharing Steve's counseling. Btw, I've been counseling with him and I'm also a big "educator"! Distressed, I agree that nothing can MAKE the betrayer stop the affair if they don't want to but by doing Plan B(after a good Plan A) they are forced to have all of their needs met by the OP and this can "pressure " the relationship (as Steve told me at one time).FA, I know what you mean about the self respect thing and I've struggled with all of that but as someone said you look at the "potential" . Plus when in an affair it's like the betrayer goes insane and that's not their real character....we all remember the good people they were (usually for a good many years) and feel like this affair "persona" is temporary....that's not really them. I doubt many would consider reconciliation with a spouse who always treated us as bad as during the affair.... Merry Christmas all! LU

So you mean I shouldn't read a book and highlight the points my h needs to pay particular attention too? I know that I am trying to "educate" my h too and I need to stop. It's not my job to help him grow up, just to be here when he does.

Lu, Since you are also counseling with Steve, please advise. First are you and your H together? How are you curbing the urge to tell him everything you are learning???Derby,Steve told me that my H definitely needs to learn form this, but NOT FROM ME. The only way I can "teach" him anything is to point out everything he is doing wrong, his faults and weaknesses, etc. Big time love busters. Besides, and I KNOW this as a fact - H doesn't listen anyway. He is going to do this affair until the time comes when he doesn't want to anymore. Period. So, Why waste my time when not only do I not get the desired results, I am probably getting negative reactions instead, making me look worse in his eyes. No, don't read any more stuff to him...I have read enough to my H for everybody on the forum plus some! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Roll Me Away------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

Thank you RMA, I see a lot of my situation in your posts. I have been trying to educate my H, and have spent hours talking to him about where we went wrong, etc. I do think that my H listens, but it takes time. Now, though, after reading your post, I will stop. All our deep & meaningfuls leave me (and him) so drained that there isn't any energy left to try and enjoy each others company.A couple of weeks ago I did a beautiful Plan A, and my H responded enthusiastically. Then the LB started and my H responded negatively. So, Plan A akin to dating is what is planned from now on.One question that I have for all of you is this: If talking about reality, responsibilities, etc, is a love buster, how can any betrayed S get on with their life? My H walked out on me, our D, 2 dogs, 1 cat, a mortgage, bills, took our only car, etc. In order for me to make arrangements to get on with life, meet our finanacial obligations, meet my work commitments, have our D minded, etc, I HAVE HAD TO DISCUSS THESE ISSUES WITH HIM but have not gotten anywhere. I am still struggling daily and can only make ends meet for so long. Eventually, he either has to come to the party, sit down and make some plans that he will stick to, or I will be forced to turn to the law to protect myself. He sees this as taking out the big guns and is has threatened to be even more uncooperative then. Any thoughts on how to Plan A and still get on with life?FA- If their first choice is the OP, and it doesn't work out, why would they come back to you? My H is my first choice, and guess what? I'm still trying to work it out in the face of such odds. I'm not letting an itty bitty affair get the best of my marriage. If S wanted the OP so bad, they wouldn't give up and come running to you. As such, you can't really be considered as second choice.IF THEY GIVE UP THE OP BY CHOICE AND THEN RETURN TO YOU, YOU HAVE BECOME THEIR FIRST CHOICE. get it? Anyway, that's how I look at it.Merry Xmas to all.------------------ Black Heart

Hi Desiree,Well, I'm spending Christmas this year in sunny CA with my family. Just read through your entire post. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It has been SOOOO helpful to have both plans clarifed. I am kinda/sorta in a Plan B (still have to write the formal letter, although I told him to his face that I didn't want any contact when he moved out), & I have seen some progress (I think). It's hard to tell if he is leveling with me or just still trying to straddle the fence. I have not initiated any contact with him. But, the last time I saw H (& I know there isn't supposed to be any contact but he showed up unannounced), he told me that he cannot stop thinking about me & the 'addiction' of the affair is lessening. I could tell he was definitely NOT happy. Then he sent me a Christmas card telling me he thinks about me all the time, & that I have "unjustly become a bystander while his life goes to hell". Perhaps, another sign that the affair isn't going as well as he expected? I still have not contacted him, & I did not send him a card.So, now since I haven't done the formal Plan B letter yet, do you think I should stand my ground and not contact him, at all? I was thinking about the Plan B letter as being my next point of contact.It's so very hard to know what to do.

This thing is growing. Any one reading here might also want to read Heartpain's thread on the way to the psychiatrist.Blackheart,I don't think you NEVER discuss things you need to. Certainly, you have to discuss the kids and the mortgage and bills and whatever. I think the point from Steve is that in my position - H in the active affair and moved out, I need to not discuss negative things unless absolutely necessary. My H and I have spend a lot of time talking about what happened and why. WE KNOW. What we don't know is the conclusion to this story. Really, my H doesn't need me to tell him he needs to make a choice and move on either way. He knows that. He has made a tentative choice of her, but then he was unsure and came here on Wednesday morning and told me he doesn't want a divorce. He doesn't want me to file and he isn't planning on filing. What more can I possibly say to convince him to come home....NOTHING. He either will want to or he won't and logic and books and printed threads from this site and other people's opinions - none of it matters. He has to decide and I need to give it all a big rest. This isn't easy for me. As I better understand it all, I keep thinking I can tell him or show him something new that might make a difference and it doesn't really. H does listen to me and he does consider what I say and have learned. He has read everything I offered him to read. I asked his permission..."If you want to read such and such, I will print or copy, or lend you the book, etc" and he always says yes. But has he changed his actions???NOPE.He is still mad as hell at me over the EA. he told me last week this is why he left and is having the affair. And, of course, now he is inlove with the OW and has to deal with that, too. So the big question is how does this all end up now that we KNOW????As for how to PlanA and get on with your life - I asked Steve Harley this at the last session. His answer is - you don't really. You have to consider your life "on hold" while in PlanA. I think this is in regard to making a life for yourself and moving away from the marriage. In planA you are focused on identifying and meeting your S's needs. In planB, you are focused on yourself and that is when you are really working on getting on with your life. Hope this helps [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

sidney,Having fun???? Hope so. Sounds like you are starting to get some response here. I am still praying for you!!!!!!! Merry ChristmasRoll Me Away------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy

Hi RMA -Been off MB for awhile and wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas!!!!Great thread....just skimmed it now but will come back and concentrate more fully......One thing that I have tried to do...when speaking of "improvements" (educating?) - I put it that "I" am learning...etc.!!I wonder if that is still considered LB if used in the context of my own revelations? And in talking about my own actions, habits, thoughts, etc?Hmmmmm.....I will have to think on that!HUGS and Merry XMas to you and your family!!!Sheba

Sheba,Thanks and Merry Christmas right back to you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

To answer your question, I think when we share what we've learned, it sends the message that we've been working hard, we've learned more, we see the light, we have it all figured out...etc. I guess the implication to that is: you haven't been working hard, you don't understand, you don't see the light, you are making mistakes because you don't have it all figured out...etc.From that perspective, I think we need to be careful how we "present" the info we are learning here. I think there is a fine line between sharing ideas/points of view and educating/pontificating. I am working to understand the difference......Desiree------------------ "Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."Sir Humphry Davy