OK all,<P>The single number one thingh I learned in today's session is this:<P>I DON'T DO AS GOOD A PLANA AS I THOUGHT!!!!<P>Steve dinged me all over the place and I MUST learn to do better or I will blow my opportunity here. <P>Here is a summary from my session: REMEMBER THIS PERTAINS TO ME AND MY SESSION [disclaimer ]<P>I need to stop trying to educate my H. [OK, there are plenty of you out there who are trying to do the same thing, so pay attention.]<P>Steve made me see that all I am doing is all the "work" and offering ideas to my H for him to shoot down one by one. He needs to learn some things, but NOT FROM ME. This is a MAJOR LB!!!!!! Steve said, I'll bet the OW is NOT trying to educate your H. AUUGGGHHH <P>My job in Plan A is to listen to my H and try to see what he responds to and what he doesn't so I can best meet his needs. <P>Steve says right now my H and I are not on the same page (major understatement ]. My H is learning things from me, but the PRICE of this is too high. By me educating him, I am in fact pointing out his faults and weaknesses, telling him what he doesn't know and telling him what his responsibilities are (like he is setting a bad example for the kids). This is akin to taking the candy away from the baby and even if it is good for the baby, the baby doesn't need this right now.<P>Steve says when you are in Plan A, you need to ASSUME you will eventually move into PlanB. Everything I am doing now should be to help me in PlanB. Steve says I am trying and struggling to avoid PlanB so much that I am compromising the effectiveness of PlanA.<BR>That I am so afraid of planB that I am bargaining and trying to EDUCATE my H.<P>The educating has to stop because my H is looking negatively at me because of it. I come across as selfish and the education is really benefitting me because I am in essence saying things to my H like:<P>"You need to focus less on yourself"<BR>"You need to focus more on the marriage"<BR>"You need to focus more on me"<P>This is HYPOCRITICAL because I am telling him he is selfish and yet all the benefits I am suggesting of the above benefit ME. [Major eyeopener here!]<P>Steve's recommendations:<BR>*Continue working on me - no more education and judgements. [All - this is a major problem for me....please pray for me to do better!}<BR>* Avoid talking about the past<BR>* Try to understand that my H is probably unaware of how much damage he is causing me<BR>* If my H says he doesn't understand something right now, DON'T go there (example I gave Steve is that I told my H I feel as if I have lost "status" and he could not understand why I would feel that way.)<BR>* Talk about the kids, my life, his life - nothing that is likely to make us uncomfortable unless he brings it up.<BR>* As we interact, make offers to him to do things together, etc. - lay them at his feet and if he doesn't take the offer, drop it at that time and try again later.<BR>* Be my H's friend<BR>* Avoid saying or doing ANYTHING that would make him unhappy<BR>* Send him occasional cards and e-mails, but make the message short and sweet, so he knows I am still interested but he doesn't feel pressured.<BR>* Ask H to call Steve (again)<P>OK, so I had posted somewhere here this morning that I suspected many of us are not doing as good a job in PlanA as we THINK we are. Certainly this is true for me. I recounted my last couple interactions with my H to Steve and he showed me where I stepped off the cliff over and over again. It is not important what I think about why and what happened or what I think I know...it is what my H figures out through all of this. <P>You would think I would have learned this by now: How many times have I tried to reason, educate and talk sense into my H with no results??????? Maybe even getting negative results!!I guess I have been coming across snooty and know-it-all and condescending and pushy...... I need to tattoo this on my brain!<P>Last point:<P>Steve's take on why my H doesn't want to file for D at this time - conflict and pain avoidance. H is going for the instant gratification of the affair and he is unsure whether filing for divorce is in his best interest right now. <P>I still have some opportunity here and my job is to be the best wife I can be so that H may decide that I am in his best interest, not the OW.<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

RMA,<P>Sounds like you had a fruitful session! Doesn't that hurt when you find out in therapy that you are doing something wrong! I've had that happen to me a couple times.<P>Well you've got to rework your plan. So hang in there and keep praying about it.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>conflict and pain avoidance. H is going for the instant gratification of the affair and he is unsure whether filing for divorce is in his best interest right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He told me basically the same thing about the Mrs. But he also said that wankboy doesn't seem to show any "commitment" on his part. He's just letting her "tag along." If he did show any commitment & asked my Wife to divorce me, she do it in a heartbeat.<P>He's been single for 20+ years so a wife wouldn't interest him (unless it's someone elses). I have read this in a few books also. A married person is "safe" in that they don't have to have any commitment.<P>Anyhoo, listen & learn from Steve. He's probably heard it all before. Make yourself someone "safe" your h can talk to or be with.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Very Cool. I sure am learning a lot from your sessions!!!!<P>Thanks!! <P>Lori

RMA,<P>Having been in 'Plan A', I certainly can't fault you for your mistakes. I think I made all the same mistakes. I know I tried to 'educate' my H by purchasing books, & printing off reams of Harley's stuff. Although, my H indicated he wanted to read the stuff. I know how hard it is to try to ignore the OW issue when it constantly looms over your head, & you keep getting slapped in the face with 'signs' of her ugly presence. You know, I never considered that I would be going to Plan B. I really thought if I did the Plan A well enough, it would end. But, he's right. In these types of cases, I think the Plan B's are inevitable. So, if you look at it that way, you won't get as frustrated as I did when I wasn't getting the results I wanted in <BR>Plan A.<P>How much longer do you have in Plan A??

Well I am not trying to educate my spouse. I am just trying to let him know that I am interested. Had an interesting phone call from MIL she talked to H asked why in the h@!! it sent me that letter, told him that he was cruel and that everything he did to me he was doing to her too. I don't think he really responded to much except to say he knew or he didn't know. Iguess I'll keep doing ths short notes or cards ever so often then soon go to plan B. Of course it wiil pobably make no difference to him except relief that he won't hear from me anymore. I am curios how Sunday will be at my inlaws/ I drop s off that morning hopefully before H gets there, but I will be ready for him. Smile sweetly and look fantastic<P>Keep trying on plan A practice makes perfect.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Bob,<P>Yes, it stings like crazy to keep making stupid mistakes. I tell you, for all the effort and trying, you'd think I could manage a few things right???? Well, I did do a couple things right and Steve told me so, but of course I can't remember them right now! This is all so tiring.....Yes, I will keep praying and would appreciate some of your prayers, too. <P>Chris,<P>Interesting - I guess there is a lot of commonality in these affairs. I wondered if my H didn't want a divorce so he wouldn't have to feel as if he had to marry the OW???? Who knows why the affair participants want all the pleasure of the relationship without the responsibilities...?<P>Lori,<P>I post a summary here to maybe help those who aren't able to call Steve. If any of this helps you...great!!!! <P>sidney,<P>I have to continue to remember that Plan A is NOT designed to bring my H back to me, but to "demonstrate to him that it is in his primary interest to be married to me." [Direct quote from Steve Harley.] I think sometimes I forget that. I m truly impatient and want to get SOMETHING back for all my efforts. It has been 10 months and it feels like a whole lifetime!!!!<P>Diana,<P>Send me an e-mail with the details of the phone call. I want to hear more. Yes, I would keep sending him the cards. Frrom Steve: talk about ANYTHING but the relatiojnship or problems betwen you two unless absolutely necessary. You are supposed to make him LOOK FORWARD to talking to you or to receiving a card or letter from you!!!!!!<P>Desiree <BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Yup. It's a moment of clarity after a few Christmas bevy's at lunch day.<P>I made that same mistake for sure. Educate my ex, work on the marriage, all that crap.<P>See Heartpain's "Revelation on the way to the shrink" thread. I bet this all ties together some how.<P>Thanks everybody and have a happy holiday season.<BR>

I have done little in the way of trying to "educate" my H, I have tried to talk about non-controversial things, I and the kids have invited him a few times - and each time I have any positive interaction with him, within a day or two he reacts negatively. He has said for instance that he does not want to ever again eat dinner at the same table, because it "sends the wrong message to the kids". He has essentially told me that he doesn't want the kids to think we get along. <P>I suspect that whenever I do anything nice for my H, if the OW finds our she tries hard to convince him that I am trying to manipulate him. He has convinced himself that I am persecuting him - he even turned around my offer to pay off some of our credit card debt, and accused me of not sticking to our agreement. Plan A, Plan B, Plan whatever - none of them are of any use when there is a desparate OW who is interested in commitment, and who will go to any lengths to try to keep him, and a spouse who is willing to go along with whatever she tells him to do or think.

RMA-<P>I love that you are doing these sessions!!<BR>I have some questions, though. If you aren't suppose to talk about the relationship, or it's problems, how in the world can you ever move forward? This confuses me.<P>Also, if you were my friend, and I did something that upset you, you would tell me, right? And, you would probably tell me who and why it upset me, right? Which in a round about way is 'educating' me, right?<P>I can understand about saying things like, you are selfish, you are making a mistake, etc, etc, but how can we learn all these things if no one will tell us. <P>I guess what I am trying to say is, if educating our spouses is wrong, what is right? I mean, we would never learn anything is someone or something didn't help us along.<P>Sorry, I don't even know if this makes any sense. I am just confused on the educating thing. I can see where we shouldn't be judgemental and pressuring, but we all need to be educated. Frankly, I think that is what my H main problem is. No woman has 'educated' him on proper behaviors.<P>Sorry for the ramble. Glad your sessions are going so well!!<P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl

RMA -- Good for you!!! As for finding out in therapy that you've been doing something wrong. I like that. I use it as a barometer as to whether the therapist is looking at me objectively or not. If I never get any correction or criticism, then I know that I'm being told what they think I want to hear, because I know I'm not perfect and make lots of mistakes.<P>You just do the best Plan A you can. I'm hoping beyond hope that it works....<P>--DeWayne--

ceecee <BR> I'm with you on this. When is the betrayer suppose to meet our needs? Do we wait around for them to be enlightened? I'm confused. Is there a fine line between being loving and being a doormat? Compromise should be in there somewhere. <BR> Sorry just venting.<BR> I'm just tired of hearing people saying they have grown apart when it means it is too much work to save a relatioonship.<BR>Roll Me Away<BR> Best of luck to you!<P>Love faythe

nonplused,<P>Sorry you have made the same mistakes as me...<sigh><P>Yes, I agree with you there is some cross-cponnection with Heartpain's thread and I have posted there as well.<P>Hope your holidays go well, also! <P>nellie,<P>I think things with my H and I are a little different than with you and your H. My H has enjoyed coming around here - but only when HE wants to. He pops in all the time - every week. I think he still WANTS to feel a prt of the family, even though he is the one who chose to leave. I know about just a few folks knowing. Would you believe that 2 of my H's kids who live out of state do not even know we are separated???? If he ever calls them, he calls them from here. Still praying for you by name each day.<P>ceecee,<P>I will try my best to explian. But go back and re-read my original post. My H needs to learn from all of this, JUST NOT FROM ME. As Steve pointed out to me, each time I try to convince my H of my point of view, it is always that we should be working on the marriage and he should care more about me and the kids, etc. As Steve pointed out - this is another way of saying, quit being so selfish and do things MY way, what I want, to benefit ME. Steve said, Desiree, isn't this hypocritical becuase you want him to do exactly what he is doing, except make YOU the focus instead of HIMSELF? YIKES!!!!! Yes, if you look at it that way....it is hypocritical. My H needs to learn a balanced approach to a relationship, which he isn't looking at right now. It's all about him. If I try to get him to "see" that by pointing out things or telling him my numerous opinions then I am really critizing him.<P>If we were in a stable relationship, this wouldn't necessarily be so bad. But, isince things are so strained between us right now, this is the KISS OF DEATH!!!!! <P>If I take the approach that I am "dating" or "trying to date" my H, would I start out by criticizing and trying to educate my new boyfriend or POTENTIAL boyfriend????? NO. So, since my H isn't acting or "considering" himslef married to me right now, I need to take the approach of trying to attract him as a POTENTIAL mate, again.<P>To be "attractive" back to him, I need to be positive and focus on all his positive qualities, and he does have many. After all, isn't that EXACTLY what the OW is doing right now???? She is minimizing all his faults and maximizing all his plusses and I MUST do that, too, if I want to have any opportunity here.<P>Heartpain,<P>I have been posting on your thread and yes, we are reading eachother's thoughts! Our S's may NEVER come back. This might work out for them and they go off happily into the sunset. I have to accept that as a possibility, although I don't think it is necessarily a probability in my case. But, of course all these efforts mean diddly squat if our S's aren't even looking inour direction! All we can do is keep trying and as you say, these efforts ofr improvement will benefit us whether we end up with our S's or not. I don't care if you are feeling so discouraged about your W, I am still gonna pull for you two anyway! <P>faythe,<P>I know what you mean about OUR needs. Unfortunately, the sad reality is that this time is all about THEM and their needs. We play a very tiny role right now. As long as the OP is still in the picture, or even if they aren't but still the focus for the recovering S, it is so very, very hard for us to be a consideration by the betrayer. <P>I guess I get madf and angry about that sometimes, but then I remind myslef that I still have a choice here. I can walk away and give it up. I have no doubts that I would be able to find another partner and have love and happiness again. I just am not ready to give up on my mule-headed H. His affair is about anger towards me for an EA I had over 2 years ago. He stuck by me during that time and now I am sticking by him during this most devastating time. I really do love my H. In my heart, I do believe that he really loves me but is afraid to trust me again. If I run out now, it will only convince him that I didn't love him. I will stick with this until I don't love him anymore. I will keep trying to better myslef. That is all any of us can do....<P>Roll Me Away<P> <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I went back and really read my Harley tonight. 1. " While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconilliation is definitely possible."<P>2."If the first plan is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan is followed until the affair is ended"<P>3.page 76-66 It says that you are to avoid upset the betrayer andtry to meet their needs if they let you. Telling about time limit is seen as a threat.<P>4. "But even when plan A doesn't stop an affair, having used makes marital reconcilliation easier if separartion from the lover ever does occur."<P>5.'Another advantage it plan A is thaat when it ends, the betrayed spouse leaves the wayward spouse with the best possible memories of how he or she was treated."<P>6.Most affairs last LESS then SIX months after they are supposed to light of day. A few may survive two years of sunlight but that is rare when a betrayed spouse lets go and gives the affair a chance to destroy itself."<P>7. The book also talks about the fact that depending on how long the affair last, the betrayed may start having doubts about whether or not they want the betrayer back. <P>I think most of us have tried to do something else rather then a true Harley plan. He even says in the book that it is a now line that we have to follow if we want it to work. <P>This is almost like study for an exam. You have to keep reading and rereading for all the information that we missed the first time and the next time and the third time. Each time I read the book the more I see things I did not see before and the mosre I begin to understand. Of course Desiree having you tell us what Steve say to you has helped me see things better.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Diana,<P>Thanks for typing that in. As you know, my H took all the infidelity books when he moved out. So, I don't have any of my reference material anymore.<P>I am glad I am doing these sessions with Steve. I HIGHLY recommend them to everyone. I feel I am getting good advice and insights I would not have without talking to Steve. <P>Oh, Dr K......I asked Steve if he was K and he laughed and said No and I told him I wasn't sure if I believed him !<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree, you have mail. When I have a few minutes of quiet time I am going to reread SAA. Things are begining to be a little clearer now. Since you are without the book maybe you need to buy you self a present and get another copy of it. I think it would help.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

RMA-<P>Ok, I still need some clarfying here.<BR>I am concerned that Plan A makes the betrayed spouse seem that they have no self esteem- in the eyes of the betrayer.<P>I think that if you have to walk on egg shells, watching EVERYTHING you say, as not to upset the apple cart, you are giving them a FALSE idea of who you are.<P>I am not suggesting that LB should be tolerated by either party, ever, but I think there is a difference b/w LBing and sharing what is on your mind. If you can't share opinions and thoughts, what is left.<P>I am sure that when you were dating, your H found your mind as an attrative part of the package. I know that my H found me attrative, at least in part because of my opinions and the fact that I was able to share them.<P>I guess I am just worried that over playing Plan A can make your spouse lose respect for you, and as faythe said, there is a fine line between Plan A and being a doormat.<P>I think that my Plan Aing is only feeding the huge ego of my H. He is very attractive and women fall all over him. Obviously, he doesn't have trouble finding another to 'meet' his needs.<P>Sorry, I am rambling. I am venting on your thread. Sorry.<P>Cheryl

Cheryl. I got my book out have really started reading. I think we all have misunderstood plan a. What it says is no angry outburst, disrespect and demands. You are not to upset your H and if possible meet his emotional need if he lets you. The book goes on to say that is why there is a time limit and that writing letters and talking on the telephone was an easier way of communication because it kept the love busting down. You are to make them feel comfortable with you, show consideration for their feelings but don't expect anything in return.<P>I keep on reading maybe I will figure this out yet!<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

SDS/RMA-<P>I understand about not LBing. I also understand about not getting anything back.<P>I guess what I don't get, is that, if you get your spouse back, by not LBing (yes, I agree that you should NEVER do this), by giving yourself, w/o getting back, why would they EVER give anything back.<P>I appears to me, that the selfish side of them could stick around, if they know that you can love them w/o having to give you back anything.<P>Does this make sense?

Cheryl, I haven't gotten that far yet remember I am just working on plan a havene't hought about what would happen if he came back. The idea of plan a is to leave them feeling that you have been considerate of their feelings and have tried to meet their emotional needs. If they are deep in the affair & have not given up the op they will leave. All you have done is ive them pleasent memories that when things start to fall apart with OP they can remember and say hey I was better off with my spouse. Something like that. Then when the come back you go to the next step which is recovery. <P>I get the idea that you go into plan a if the spouse will not give up the OP and that if you go into plan a you will most likely go to plan B. So plan a is to prepare the way for plan b. In other words if they won't give up the op then they will leave. And as long as they won't give up Op their is no chance for reconcilliation. I guess those of us whose spouses have left should go into plan b if we want a real chance. <P>This is a great discussion but I am going to have to take a break. I have to go to a 24 hour Wal Mart to do some shopping. I will check later to see if anyone is still up or will check in tomorrow.<P>Discussing this helps me to understand what Dr. H was saying in his book.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>