How can she be so cheerful? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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My wife of 20 years who is divorcing me and I still live in the same home. I must stay to keep alive any hope of reconcilation and to do right by my two children (ages 12 and 15), however she is so cheerful and normal acting. She is even normal acting to me except when I talk about us. Every cheerful word that comes out of her mouth is so hurtful to me. Why can't she can't she act like what she is doing is bothering her a little, or just leave if she is going to do wrong and damage our children. It must be so confusing for them to see their Christian mother who knows divorce is wrong yet she still is pursuing divorce with their father (me). HOW CAN SHE ACT SO CHEERFUL WHEN SHE IS KILLING (figuratively speaking) ME?

Joe, It is so hard trying to remember it isn't really our spouses saying and doing these things. We are fighting against satan, not our spouses. Satan has his grips on them, they can't help it. We must continue to pray for them and pray the Lord will open their eyes to see and their ears to hear the truth. He will, but it will take time. I don't know when, but I do know it will happen. We have his word on it. Continue to stand on his promises and we will get through this. Barb

Joe, i agree with Barb. Your wife is under a delusion and she more than likely isnt so cheerful inside. The Holy Spirit wont allow it. She may also be taking antidepressants. Trust in God and not your wifes emotions nor actions. Just do your part and keep your faith. She is probably testing you to see how stong it is, if you have claimed your trusting God to restore your marriage. She may be trying to shake your faith. She is being used by the enemy right now. The enemy figures , hey it works most of the time. Lay it all in Gods hands daily, and pray for His strenth daily to carry you thru. Mark

This is my first time here at this sight; a friend thought I might learn a thing or two. Your topic caught my attention, and tweaked my curiosity enough so that I went back and looked at all you postings in a attempt to have a better understanding of you and your wife. You state that your wife has major emotional problems in your early writings, and in your last writing state that she is happy as long as you aren't talking about "US". In additon, you ask the question abut writing her a letter to tell her how much you love her and are willing to change to make the marriage work if she drops the divorce proceedings. But your first note says it all; she is divorcing you for no reason, your opinion. Joe, can you see the incongruence in your statements? If you have done nothing wrong to cause the divorce then there would be no need for you to make cahnges, and if you made changes to accommodate your wife, then wouldn't you be compromising who and what you are as a man of God? But, if you have committed sins against your wife and marriage either by omission or commision, then not only do you need to make changes, but you need to humble yourself and ask for specific forgiveness. Next you would have to prove to your wife that your are a differnt person then the person who sinned in the marriage and that will take time a effort on your part, along with allot of patience. Yo8ur action will have to show her how sorry you are,not words before she will beleive you and start to trust you again. Have you examined how you are living right now to see if you are showing your love for her? If you are truely innocent in this, and as you statement says, "wife has severe emotional problems," maybe you should get the children out of the house and into a safer and more emotionally stable environment. I know that is what is suggested to women who are in your position. They ae told that the house and things are not as important as the children and themselves. Sometimes a marriage needs space, and if she won't give you the space then you need to make that space needed to heal the relatinship. Remeoving you and the children out of the home temporaily will help create that space and maybe she will realize what she is losing and get the help that she needs. If you keep pursing her, it sounds like you will drive her away even farther than she currentlyis and could create additional probelms for you and damage your children even more than what she already has done to them. Finally, maybe she hasn't left the house because she feels she deserves to stay becasue of your actins that might have undermined your marriage to the point where she feels no other option but to divorce. This would explain why she appears to be happy when she is with the children. As for your final statement, "she is killing you" I would pose the question, what is killing you, her being happy by ending the marriage ending, losing the one who you love an dcherish and want to spend the rest of your life with making her happy, or becoming a divorcee?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by billiam1: This is my first time here at this sight; a friend thought I might learn a thing or two. Your topic caught my attention, and tweaked my curiosity enough so that I went back and looked at all you postings in a attempt to have a better understanding of you and your wife. You state that your wife has major emotional problems in your early writings, and in your last writing state that she is happy as long as you aren't talking about "US". In additon, you ask the question abut writing her a letter to tell her how much you love her and are willing to change to make the marriage work if she drops the divorce proceedings. But your first note says it all; she is divorcing you for no reason, your opinion. Joe, can you see the incongruence in your statements? If you have done nothing wrong to cause the divorce then there would be no need for you to make cahnges, and if you made changes to accommodate your wife, then wouldn't you be compromising who and what you are as a man of God? But, if you have committed sins against your wife and marriage either by omission or commision, then not only do you need to make changes, but you need to humble yourself and ask for specific forgiveness. Next you would have to prove to your wife that your are a differnt person then the person who sinned in the marriage and that will take time a effort on your part, along with allot of patience. Yo8ur action will have to show her how sorry you are,not words before she will beleive you and start to trust you again. Have you examined how you are living right now to see if you are showing your love for her? If you are truely innocent in this, and as you statement says, "wife has severe emotional problems," maybe you should get the children out of the house and into a safer and more emotionally stable environment. I know that is what is suggested to women who are in your position. They ae told that the house and things are not as important as the children and themselves. Sometimes a marriage needs space, and if she won't give you the space then you need to make that space needed to heal the relatinship. Remeoving you and the children out of the home temporaily will help create that space and maybe she will realize what she is losing and get the help that she needs. If you keep pursing her, it sounds like you will drive her away even farther than she currentlyis and could create additional probelms for you and damage your children even more than what she already has done to them. Finally, maybe she hasn't left the house because she feels she deserves to stay becasue of your actins that might have undermined your marriage to the point where she feels no other option but to divorce. This would explain why she appears to be happy when she is with the children. As for your final statement, "she is killing you" I would pose the question, what is killing you, her being happy by ending the marriage ending, losing the one who you love an dcherish and want to spend the rest of your life with making her happy, or becoming a divorcee?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am flattered that in your first time on this site you chose to respond to one of my postings. I don't have much time to respond right now but her emotional problems are not so severe that I can take the children out of their present situation, she is under medication. I regret any uncongruancies in my previous postings however this is an extremely emotional time for me right now and the emotions of the moment may rule what I write. Finally I think all of the things you suggested are what is presently "killing" me and I hope that emotion is rational. I am seeking God's will in everything and my sincerest prayers are for my wife drawing close do God again and us reconciling. I hope you will pray for that end with me. Joe

Dear Billiam, If your friends sent you here because you might learn something then I hope you learn that not everybody would respond to what you said to Joe the way Joe did. I was so blessed by his humble responce. If you had said all those things to me I would have been crushed. Most of us come here to be prayed for and encouraged. Not judged. All I know is I came away from what you said to him, very discouraged and down. But fortunately because of Joe's humble and gracious responce, my faith in human kindness was restored and went away encouraged once more. He's a great guy and I will be praying that Joe's wife's recognizes the changes he's making and returns to him. It goes without saying all of us feel some responcibility for the pain we've gone through. Are you speaking from experience? I don't mean to be judgemental myself either. I'm just letting you know how what you said affected me. ONTHEMEND

I think leaving her to give her space is bad advice. No where in the Bible will it ever give advice to leave a marriage to make it better. That would give the evil one a bigger playing field. Keep up plan A and prayer.

Dear Billiam, I apologize for my defensiveness. It's something the Lord is working on me about. We do give advice here as well but it is generally given thoughtfully and hopefully in love and from experience and in line with the Scriptures and Dr. Harley's wisdom from the experiences of many others. I hope you will except my apology. I do agree with Very Hurt that to encourage leaving generally does more harm than good. We have a much better oportunity to influence our situation with them in the house than out. There are situations when it's necessary but these days it seems to be the norm instead of the exception and I know that's of Satan. They must really search their hearts for the Lord's will in that one. I've learned a ton from Dr. Harley Billiam and of course from the Lord. And although it may not seem like it judging from my last post, I HAVE learned alot about tactfullnes and am in the process of learning "to let my gentleness be evident to all" Philipians. I have a LONG way to go. I'm stubbing my feet as I go as you can see. Ha!! Again, sorry. God bless us and continue to teach us Your ways, Amen Love in Christ, ONTHEMEND

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONTHEMEND: Dear Billiam, I apologize for my defensiveness. It's something the Lord is working on me about. We do give advice here as well but it is generally given thoughtfully and hopefully in love and from experience and in line with the Scriptures and Dr. Harley's wisdom from the experiences of many others. I hope you will except my apology. I do agree with Very Hurt that to encourage leaving generally does more harm than good. We have a much better oportunity to influence our situation with them in the house than out. There are situations when it's necessary but these days it seems to be the norm instead of the exception and I know that's of Satan. They must really search their hearts for the Lord's will in that one. I've learned a ton from Dr. Harley Billiam and of course from the Lord. And although it may not seem like it judging from my last post, I HAVE learned alot about tactfullnes and am in the process of learning "to let my gentleness be evident to all" Philipians. I have a LONG way to go. I'm stubbing my feet as I go as you can see. Ha!! Again, sorry. God bless us and continue to teach us Your ways, Amen Love in Christ, ONTHEMEND<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I appreciated you defending me and apology to Billiam. I also appreciate that you seem to understand the great hurt and emotional turmoil all this is. My 15 year old daughter seems to be emotionally bonding with my wife now and I can't understand that either. Just today it occurred to me to look at this as a kinda of death. We all have some apprehension of death yet as Christians we know things will come out great on the other side. I guess that is how I can look at what is happening right now. What I am going through is dreadful yet I have begun to believe that things will be okay (whatever okay involves) when I am on the otherside of all of this. Thank you for the kind words in my defense. Joe

Joe, you are a true humble man of God. No party to any marriage is totally innocent contrary to popular belief. I have made many mistakes along the way in my marriage. I could hold onto the thought that none justified my wife leaving or wanting a D but instead i choose to allow God to heal my flaws while He does the same for my wife. I do understand that you are under a great amount of pain and anguish right now. I woke up one day and said life was going to be a living hell for the rest of my days and i hope God cuts them short. I believed that for about 2 years and felt it. Im on 3 years seperation and God pulled me through not only how i felt, but has reached my wife and we are on our way to restoration. The best advice i can give you Joe is stay close and humbled before the Lord and He will carry you thru this and also change your W heart. He changed my W heart and she had about as hard as a heart as they come. Dear Lord , i pray you continue to give my brother Joe strenth to make it the rest of the way and that you draw nearer to him wiith your peace and comfort. Lord, give Joe encouragement during those times when he wants to give up. I lift Joes W up to you that you would reach her heart and turn her back to you Lord and to her husband. Teach us Lord how to forgive as you have forgiven us so many times and many more to come. In Jesus nname, Amen Mark

Sounds as if she is a selfish person trying to make herself look virtuous. WWJD?? Tell her the cold hard truth - in love. Tell her that her actions and choices mean that the house is no longer her home, and that she is choosing to take herself out of the family. Therefore, she has to find other accomodations. Become a man, man! If she doesn't move out after this request, give her 2 more weeks, and then put her things in a storage unit, pay for one month's rent on it, tell her where it is. If the children question your actions, let them know that their mother is like the prodigal son who wants to go out on her own, and that she will have to learn what the consequences are. And don't let her back into your life until she comes to you and says "I have sinned against you and against God - I don't deserve your mercy and forgiveness, but I am asking for it." And then these are the only words you should take into account - after that, discern whether or not she has changed by her actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by trutuyu: Sounds as if she is a selfish person trying to make herself look virtuous. WWJD?? Tell her the cold hard truth - in love. Tell her that her actions and choices mean that the house is no longer her home, and that she is choosing to take herself out of the family. Therefore, she has to find other accomodations. Become a man, man! If she doesn't move out after this request, give her 2 more weeks, and then put her things in a storage unit, pay for one month's rent on it, tell her where it is. If the children question your actions, let them know that their mother is like the prodigal son who wants to go out on her own, and that she will have to learn what the consequences are. And don't let her back into your life until she comes to you and says "I have sinned against you and against God - I don't deserve your mercy and forgiveness, but I am asking for it." And then these are the only words you should take into account - after that, discern whether or not she has changed by her actions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I appreciated your advice and you don't know how much it would relieve me for her to just leave. However my growing in knowledge and grace is an ongoing process and even since I made this posting about "How can she be so cheerful?" I have become convinced that I must stay and it would be wrong for me to encourage her to leave. If is is God's will for us to stay married, and it is, if I encourage her to leave I will be doing wrong and if I even suggest that she leave I will be suggesting she go against will of God. How can I do that? I have just come to this conclusion. In the meantime my life will be very difficult. I said in a previouse response that I kinda view my situation like death. Even Christians have apprehension about dying yet we know things will come out great on the other side. I believe that of this situation. Right now I am walking through the valley of the shadow of death (kinda figuatively speaking). When I get through things will be great. In the meantime however I would appreciate your prayers.Joe

Dear Joe,I think you are being the bravest a man can be and there is nothing more difficult than living with someone who pretends he/she isn't married anymore. I think you are doing GREAT and I hope and pray that you are able to continue as you are.My husband wants to come home once a wk and every two weekends to stay with my daughter and I'm DREADING it. I can't seem to be nice at all. I am feeling madder than before, actually. So to me you are really incredible, an inspiration and I wish you all the best.Dear Jesus, Please help Joe to continue loving his wife and help her to desire their reconciliation in Your name. Lord, please fix all of our marriages and help our spouses and us to convert our hearts to You more and more each day. I ask this in Your Powerful and Merciful name: Jesus Christ. Amen.

Joe, I was truly amazed at the responses to my note. It was not my intent to offend, or cause you additional hurt in any way, and if I have, please forgive me, I'm truly sorry. The following paragraph I omitted because I felt my last response was too long. "Just to let you know, I'm divorced, and am now just starting to pick up the pieces of my life. I never thought I'd be one of "those people" a divorcee. I will state that my wife had an affair and I caughther, but with several years of perspective behind me, I realize that the affair was just a symtom of a marriage that had gone bad. As you see Joe, I am one of those, a divorcee. My attempt was to get you thinking about how you ended up where you are and the options that are avaiable to you. I do understand the pain you're in and I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. I know that the only acceptable reason for divorce is adultry, per Jesus's words, and I had the poor timing of coming home from a business trip a day too early and literally walking in on her and her friend. This I know from experience, right now is not the time when you are able to think clearly and rationally, but at the same time, THIS is the time when you need those skills the most. I would advise, yes, this is advice, that you find a Christian Counselor and be brutally honest with them about how you contributed to the demise of your marriage> I would make sure that I had complete trust in that counselor and then follow their advice to the letter. The counselor is in a much better position to give you advice on how to save your marriage if there is any chance of it being saved. I would assume by your ealier statements that you are not in the same position as was in wit my spouse committing adultry, so I would assume that there is a chance to save your marriage. Joe, I know that you are under a great amount of stress at the present time and are doing the best you can with what you have and that is why I suggest that you seek the help from a counselor, and I would also encourage meeting with your Pastor on a weekly basis for guidance and support. He will be able to additinal spiritual support and some advice on how to be the Godly head of the house, even during this time. I'm sure that you want Christ to shine through all that you do as an example to your children and wife. Enough advice, but I know what helped me through my time and in hindsight, the advice I received helped me keep the faith, grow in Christ, and set a proper example to the children in my home. God showed me that I am His child and that He wouldn't leave me. He showed me that in His eyes I was not a failure but a person who lives in an imperfect world filled with God's grace and understanding. God has shown me that this world is filled with things that are not His will, a result of living in an imperfect world corrupted by sin. God put in place the laws that govern this world and each time the law is violated consequences occur. Sometimes we are the violators and many times we are not, but we experience the results just by living in a fallen world. Bad things do happen to good people and that's not fair, but it is life. One day, after death, we will finally see from God's perspective this world, and our eyes will be opened for the first time and will see this world from His perspective. I remember the first time I went to a pro football game and how amazed I was at what I saw. All my life I had watched foootball on T.V. and couldn't beleive how much of the game I missed when I finally saw it from above in a stadium. I finally could see the whole whole play open up right before my eyes and I was totally amazed out how much of the gave I missed watching it on T.V. I believe God sees the whole play, but we only see in part. One fianl thought Joe, we are on a journey, and many times we have hopes dreams and an a entire perspective of how our life should be. One day something happens, our life is turnded up side down, that is the time that we learn who God is and His unconditional love for us. Life is the journey, not the destination, that's death and eternal life. During this journey we are the eyes, feet, and habds of Jesus and we may be the only representation of Jesus that people will see. Jesus said we are the salt of this world and that is why we are still here. God has not given up on this workd or on His creation, but has chosen to use people. God has put people in your life to help you during this time of sorrow and need, allow them to help you and in so doing honoring what God has chosen them to do for you. One day, God will need you in that very same way. Joe, May God be with you and help you with His grace and love

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by billiam1: Joe, I was truly amazed at the responses to my note. It was not my intent to offend, or cause you additional hurt in any way, and if I have, please forgive me, I'm truly sorry. The following paragraph I omitted because I felt my last response was too long. "Just to let you know, I'm divorced, and am now just starting to pick up the pieces of my life. I never thought I'd be one of "those people" a divorcee. I will state that my wife had an affair and I caughther, but with several years of perspective behind me, I realize that the affair was just a symtom of a marriage that had gone bad. As you see Joe, I am one of those, a divorcee. My attempt was to get you thinking about how you ended up where you are and the options that are avaiable to you. I do understand the pain you're in and I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. I know that the only acceptable reason for divorce is adultry, per Jesus's words, and I had the poor timing of coming home from a business trip a day too early and literally walking in on her and her friend. This I know from experience, right now is not the time when you are able to think clearly and rationally, but at the same time, THIS is the time when you need those skills the most. I would advise, yes, this is advice, that you find a Christian Counselor and be brutally honest with them about how you contributed to the demise of your marriage> I would make sure that I had complete trust in that counselor and then follow their advice to the letter. The counselor is in a much better position to give you advice on how to save your marriage if there is any chance of it being saved. I would assume by your ealier statements that you are not in the same position as was in wit my spouse committing adultry, so I would assume that there is a chance to save your marriage. Joe, I know that you are under a great amount of stress at the present time and are doing the best you can with what you have and that is why I suggest that you seek the help from a counselor, and I would also encourage meeting with your Pastor on a weekly basis for guidance and support. He will be able to additinal spiritual support and some advice on how to be the Godly head of the house, even during this time. I'm sure that you want Christ to shine through all that you do as an example to your children and wife. Enough advice, but I know what helped me through my time and in hindsight, the advice I received helped me keep the faith, grow in Christ, and set a proper example to the children in my home. God showed me that I am His child and that He wouldn't leave me. He showed me that in His eyes I was not a failure but a person who lives in an imperfect world filled with God's grace and understanding. God has shown me that this world is filled with things that are not His will, a result of living in an imperfect world corrupted by sin. God put in place the laws that govern this world and each time the law is violated consequences occur. Sometimes we are the violators and many times we are not, but we experience the results just by living in a fallen world. Bad things do happen to good people and that's not fair, but it is life. One day, after death, we will finally see from God's perspective this world, and our eyes will be opened for the first time and will see this world from His perspective. I remember the first time I went to a pro football game and how amazed I was at what I saw. All my life I had watched foootball on T.V. and couldn't beleive how much of the game I missed when I finally saw it from above in a stadium. I finally could see the whole whole play open up right before my eyes and I was totally amazed out how much of the gave I missed watching it on T.V. I believe God sees the whole play, but we only see in part. One fianl thought Joe, we are on a journey, and many times we have hopes dreams and an a entire perspective of how our life should be. One day something happens, our life is turnded up side down, that is the time that we learn who God is and His unconditional love for us. Life is the journey, not the destination, that's death and eternal life. During this journey we are the eyes, feet, and habds of Jesus and we may be the only representation of Jesus that people will see. Jesus said we are the salt of this world and that is why we are still here. God has not given up on this workd or on His creation, but has chosen to use people. God has put people in your life to help you during this time of sorrow and need, allow them to help you and in so doing honoring what God has chosen them to do for you. One day, God will need you in that very same way. Joe, May God be with you and help you with His grace and love<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is my second attemp to respond to your response. The first time I tried something happened to my computer and it got blanked out. I am doing what you suggested as to meeting with my pastor. Last night my wife was VERY hard on me. I spoke to a friend of her mother, asking her to make some impact on my wife's mother about the terrible effect a divorce would have on my children. This person assured me that she would not tell my mother-in-law that I spoke to her. So much for the assurance. I spoke to a pastor who was a mutual aquaintance of this person and he called this person a person of principle who would stand for what is right. The pastor didn't recommend that I talk to her however. She told my mother-in-law everything I said, who of course told my wife. Some of the things I told her were negative about my wife (I told her about my wife's eating disorder) but I told her those things to show her that I reacted poorly to my wife's problems because I didn't understand the severity of them.I know some people would definitely believe what I did was wrong, I don't. I am trying to enlist help anywhere I can and I don't believe that is wrong. I am have become familiar with every scripture implying that I not talk about my problems to others, but I believe saving our marriage is more important than anything. Right now there doesn't appear to be any hope however.My wife still insists I am not carrying my part of the financial load I am paying every bill I have ever paid, and it isn't easy with all the legal bills I have had to pay.I asked her why she never discussed the way she felt with me, she said she did. I have no memory of those dicussions. I asked her numerous times over the last three years to go to marriage counseling, not because I believed there were major problems in our marriage but because I realized things could have been better. She claims that I never suggested counseling. She asked my if I am telling people that I (me not her, she has been on medication for years) am on medication. I was on medication for less that two weeks, to get through the end of the school year, and I am not ashamed of that. I have told that to anyone that I believe it was relevant to tell. I even told my mother-in-law's friend that I was on medication for a short time.She accused me of not offering to take my 15 year old daughter any of the places I am taking my nearly 13 year old son. I offered to take her any place she wanted to go this summer, but she said she only wanted to go to the seashore and we spent four days there. My wife and I both see the battle for custody being for my son, because if I can hang in the house for three years my daughter will be out of high school and then my son will have to make a decision with which parent he wants to stay. She is right that I have become much closer to my son than my daughter, but that is because he is more accepting of me right now. My daughter is seemingly bonding more with my wife. My daughter is very weak spiritually and my wife is encouraging that weakness right now (although she would never admit that).Now you know my life. I still didn't tell you the worst about last night. It is still hard to believe this person, who was my best friend and closest confidant just a few months ago, now views me as her enemy. I know God is with me and I have drawn closer to God. I know this is only temporary, but right now that doesn't make me feel a whole lot better.I would appreciate your thoughts and prayers.Joe

Joe,I wanted to suggest a book to you, it's a really good one!!Loose That Man & Let Him Go! T.D. Jakes ISBN 1-88008-915-7 Take care mate.Plec.

Dear Joe, As a communication style, in general, women tend to be more dramatic. When we try to make a point, we often use the most drastic case: "You never" "I never". If you want to defuse your wife, I would suggest you NOT try to go blow by blow and sentence by sentence and show her why what she said is wrong or illogical (how often is something really "never" ?) but to understand the CONCEPT she is trying to put across. The concept seems to be that she is upset that you are not paying that much attention to your daughter. This is not about custody but about her protecting your daughter from feeling like her father doesn't love her.Maybe you can say: "I don't mean to pay less attention to her. I guess it's just easier to pay attention to our son because he seems to be less hostile to me" or "he seems to enjoy doing things with me more than our daughter does right now." Then say "Thanks for letting me know that it seems like I don't want to be with her. I really love her very much and I do enjoy her company. I'll try to make it up to her."I think you understand the type of sentence that would work. You don't need to resolve the problem, you need to show your wife that you are listening to her concerns and you care about her opinion. The same goes for mentioning her problem to someone. That is VERY PRIVATE stuff you talked about. I would have hit the roof if you had done that to me and in the past, my husband has spoken to others about my private problems and I was absolutely furious. He thought it was no big deal. It is a very big deal to the one with the problems. It is up to YOUR WIFE to talk about that. NOT YOU. (Except to your pastor, which is different.) The reason is that not everyone understands how common these problems are and not everyone can deal with them as an adult. The very fact that this woman spilled the beans to your mother-in-law is proof enough that it would have been better not to mention it. To how many others will she say, "Don't tell Joe's wife I told you, but..." (That's your wife's worst nightmare.)If you want to soften your wife, I think you have to apologize because you really hurt her by telling others about a problem which is private in nature.I just wonder if your wife has most of all a communication problem with you. Women and men are SO different when it comes to communication. If you haven't already read 10 books on the subject, the classic example is how women share problems because they want sympathy and a shoulder to cry on. We don't want someone to minimize or "fix" the problem with a logical answer. (Which is what our husbands tend to do.) We have probably got 20 logical answers up our sleeves but that doesn't help us feel better. Sympathy does - I don't know why. That's just one of those things.If you say: "I'm sorry you're feeling like this" or just agree about whoever she's complaining about, you will make her feel better. If you try to give advice to fix it quickly, she's going to get mad. I can pretty much guarantee that.Now here I am, giving advice! But I just wanted you to think about the fact that most women listen to HOW you say something, not just the words, to catch the real meaning. And men tend to pay attention to the logical sequence of the words and focus on that rather than on the concept we are trying to put across. Know what I mean?You are still far from custody battles - I think you are going to get back together. I bet she wants to. You don't get that mad at someone you don't love...Take care and God bless you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tryingtohope: Dear Joe, As a communication style, in general, women tend to be more dramatic. When we try to make a point, we often use the most drastic case: "You never" "I never". If you want to defuse your wife, I would suggest you NOT try to go blow by blow and sentence by sentence and show her why what she said is wrong or illogical (how often is something really "never" ?) but to understand the CONCEPT she is trying to put across. The concept seems to be that she is upset that you are not paying that much attention to your daughter. This is not about custody but about her protecting your daughter from feeling like her father doesn't love her.Maybe you can say: "I don't mean to pay less attention to her. I guess it's just easier to pay attention to our son because he seems to be less hostile to me" or "he seems to enjoy doing things with me more than our daughter does right now." Then say "Thanks for letting me know that it seems like I don't want to be with her. I really love her very much and I do enjoy her company. I'll try to make it up to her."I think you understand the type of sentence that would work. You don't need to resolve the problem, you need to show your wife that you are listening to her concerns and you care about her opinion. The same goes for mentioning her problem to someone. That is VERY PRIVATE stuff you talked about. I would have hit the roof if you had done that to me and in the past, my husband has spoken to others about my private problems and I was absolutely furious. He thought it was no big deal. It is a very big deal to the one with the problems. It is up to YOUR WIFE to talk about that. NOT YOU. (Except to your pastor, which is different.) The reason is that not everyone understands how common these problems are and not everyone can deal with them as an adult. The very fact that this woman spilled the beans to your mother-in-law is proof enough that it would have been better not to mention it. To how many others will she say, "Don't tell Joe's wife I told you, but..." (That's your wife's worst nightmare.)If you want to soften your wife, I think you have to apologize because you really hurt her by telling others about a problem which is private in nature.I just wonder if your wife has most of all a communication problem with you. Women and men are SO different when it comes to communication. If you haven't already read 10 books on the subject, the classic example is how women share problems because they want sympathy and a shoulder to cry on. We don't want someone to minimize or "fix" the problem with a logical answer. (Which is what our husbands tend to do.) We have probably got 20 logical answers up our sleeves but that doesn't help us feel better. Sympathy does - I don't know why. That's just one of those things.If you say: "I'm sorry you're feeling like this" or just agree about whoever she's complaining about, you will make her feel better. If you try to give advice to fix it quickly, she's going to get mad. I can pretty much guarantee that.Now here I am, giving advice! But I just wanted you to think about the fact that most women listen to HOW you say something, not just the words, to catch the real meaning. And men tend to pay attention to the logical sequence of the words and focus on that rather than on the concept we are trying to put across. Know what I mean?You are still far from custody battles - I think you are going to get back together. I bet she wants to. You don't get that mad at someone you don't love...Take care and God bless you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I appreciate your response and your insights. There obviously has been a major communication problem. She has been thinking about divorcing me for years, and I never knew, she never told me. The damage I did by speaking to people who let what I said get back to my wife was quite severe. As of right now, she has NO desire to get back together or really have anything to do with me. I brought up my wife's eating disorder not to criticize my wife but to show that my failure to sensitively react to her problem caused more problems and possiblly make her disorder worse. She didn't get to hear that part though. I too am amazed at the level of anger she has toward me. She was even insisting that I let people know I am on medication, when I am not on medication and if I was on medication I would not be ashamed. I think the fact that I have been been calm makes her think I must be on something infact she has even said that she thinks I must be on something. The something I am on is the power and calmness of God. My point is who even cares whether I'm on medication or not. I do hope your are right about the "you don't get that mad at someone you don't love" part.Joe

Joe, i agree with Trying. When i was in marriage counseling years ago, my counselor told me something i will never forget. He said men and woman are not compatible. We think differently. We are logic based and woman are feelings based. Its a general rule and i am learning not to take my wife so literally. Its like now she works with me and tries to explain how she feels but she admits she really cant explain it all and that i should just listen and go about our day, even if she says something that doesnt seem right or make sense. You wont be able to figure out your W. The best you can do is trust God to change her heart and allow Him to also work on yours. Let the rest of it go. It will take a while. Dont ask how long it took me... God has changed me and my W drastically. He aint thru yet but were almost there. The key is to learn to trust God and pray without giving up. Stand until God moves. Satan will continue to try and knock you over, but just keep standing and walking with Jesus. God still does the impossible. Many dont believe that anymore, or at least dont want to wait on God for an extended period of time.Just a note for Billiam , i dont mean to be rude but this is a place of faith and prayer. Many here have an adulterous mate whom we choose to love and forgive just as Jesus loves and forgives us. How many times have we all been unfaithful to the Lord God? Are we bigger than Him that we dont need to foorgive? Many have been divorced and the Lord restored their marriages. If you want the Lord to restore your marriage and your broken heart, then we are here for you. If not please do not discourage others that still believe God can do the impossible and choose to forgive and love their wayward mates no matter what they have done or are doing. Mark

lOSTPUP,You didn't offend me with your reply, I agree with you that as the spouse that is innocent, then the choice is yous in deciding about divorce, but that same choice is forfitted by the offending spouse. When I chose to end my marriage, adultery was only one of the contributing factors I considered in making my decision, and with several years behind me, I beleive I did the right thing for everyone involved. If I had any inkling of a chance to save my marriage I would have worked on saving it, but with what I knew and good avice from my pastor and counselors, I proceeded with divorce proceedings. I am not a quitter, but felt that this was the right thing to do under the circumstances I was living. I have alway attempted to fight for what I believe is right and good in the sight of God. I am far from perfect, but each day God teaches me His grace, kindness, and love. Yes, the bible states that God hates divorce, but I would say that God hates marital infidelity more and that is why He stated that as the only reason for divorce. I will also state that one night stands would not fall under the same guidelines as an adultious relationship. I will also state that for all of you who have chose to stay and fight for your marriage, I take my hat off to you and you have my prayers. But in fighting for you marriage, seek good counsel on how you fight for your marriage because if you don't apply the principles God has put in place then your fight will be in vain, and or cause you additional needless pain. A good starting point for the person who has defiled the marriage would be confess their sins to their spouse, andanswer any questions honestly and openly that they might ask. This confession should be given without excuses, or attempting to minimize their actions, accepting full responsibility for their actions with a willingness to also accept the consequences of their actions.Finally, the spouse must go to the elders of your church and tell them and ask for help in being held accountable so that you won't fail again. I beleive that the offended spouse has the right to wait and see if your spouse is truly repentant by seeing a change in their spouse and actions. By faith we must require a change in order to rekindle the marriage or the marriage will not be heal and become a healthy marriage with God at the center. Yes, what I have stated is tough, but if you really love your spouse and want the marriage to work, then you will do what is necessary to rebuild the trust and honoer that was removed. the purpose of honoring requests is to show your love, determination, and commitment in restoring your marriage relationship. Asking for forgiveness is your launching point and means nothing without action. Yes God uses the marriage relationship as an example of our relationship with Him. We fail God and God forgives and takes us back. But God tells us to repent, i.e. turn and go the opposite way, when He takes us back to Himself. But when we sin, there are earthly consequences for our sins against God's laws and principles. We are not set freee rom those consequences, but we are set free from God's ultimate consequence, being seperated from Him for eternity. The earthly consequences are exactly why God gave us instructions on how to live our lives, they are for our benefit, not just to make life boring. They are to help us live in peace and harmony with others. I take my hat off to all of you who are persevering through marital infidelity and I pray that you will have success. I beleive what you are doing is good and just before God. I also believe tht God gave us a free will and that He will not force His will upon anyone. If your spouse has chosen to end the marriage you have no shame, but are free to serve God and bring Him glory. God will bless you and open new doors in your life. This is what God has done for me. Each day I thank Him for all He's done for me and look for new doors He has opened.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by billiam1: lOSTPUP,You didn't offend me with your reply, I agree with you that as the spouse that is innocent, then the choice is yous in deciding about divorce, but that same choice is forfitted by the offending spouse. When I chose to end my marriage, adultery was only one of the contributing factors I considered in making my decision, and with several years behind me, I beleive I did the right thing for everyone involved. If I had any inkling of a chance to save my marriage I would have worked on saving it, but with what I knew and good avice from my pastor and counselors, I proceeded with divorce proceedings. I am not a quitter, but felt that this was the right thing to do under the circumstances I was living. I have alway attempted to fight for what I believe is right and good in the sight of God. I am far from perfect, but each day God teaches me His grace, kindness, and love. Yes, the bible states that God hates divorce, but I would say that God hates marital infidelity more and that is why He stated that as the only reason for divorce. I will also state that one night stands would not fall under the same guidelines as an adultious relationship. I will also state that for all of you who have chose to stay and fight for your marriage, I take my hat off to you and you have my prayers. But in fighting for you marriage, seek good counsel on how you fight for your marriage because if you don't apply the principles God has put in place then your fight will be in vain, and or cause you additional needless pain. A good starting point for the person who has defiled the marriage would be confess their sins to their spouse, andanswer any questions honestly and openly that they might ask. This confession should be given without excuses, or attempting to minimize their actions, accepting full responsibility for their actions with a willingness to also accept the consequences of their actions.Finally, the spouse must go to the elders of your church and tell them and ask for help in being held accountable so that you won't fail again. I beleive that the offended spouse has the right to wait and see if your spouse is truly repentant by seeing a change in their spouse and actions. By faith we must require a change in order to rekindle the marriage or the marriage will not be heal and become a healthy marriage with God at the center. Yes, what I have stated is tough, but if you really love your spouse and want the marriage to work, then you will do what is necessary to rebuild the trust and honoer that was removed. the purpose of honoring requests is to show your love, determination, and commitment in restoring your marriage relationship. Asking for forgiveness is your launching point and means nothing without action. Yes God uses the marriage relationship as an example of our relationship with Him. We fail God and God forgives and takes us back. But God tells us to repent, i.e. turn and go the opposite way, when He takes us back to Himself. But when we sin, there are earthly consequences for our sins against God's laws and principles. We are not set freee rom those consequences, but we are set free from God's ultimate consequence, being seperated from Him for eternity. The earthly consequences are exactly why God gave us instructions on how to live our lives, they are for our benefit, not just to make life boring. They are to help us live in peace and harmony with others. I take my hat off to all of you who are persevering through marital infidelity and I pray that you will have success. I beleive what you are doing is good and just before God. I also believe tht God gave us a free will and that He will not force His will upon anyone. If your spouse has chosen to end the marriage you have no shame, but are free to serve God and bring Him glory. God will bless you and open new doors in your life. This is what God has done for me. Each day I thank Him for all He's done for me and look for new doors He has opened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Billiam1 Your mentioning consequences scares me a little. Both my wife and my mother-in-law have told me I am like Timothy McVeigh, I may be forgiven but I have to pay for the damage I have done. My question is "what damage have I done?" My wife blames me for her depression and need to take medication, she blames me for her eating disorder, and she says I should have been aware of her unhappiness in our marriage. Well maybe I should have been but I didn't know. If she had discussed her unhappiness with me I sincerely believe I would have handled things differently, but she didn't give me the chance. She believes I am receiving the consequences for all I have done wrong in our marriage. I did things wrong I know that but nothing that warrants divorce. The divorce papers say "irreconcible differences". Where does the Bible say "irreconcible dirrerences" is a Bible reason to divorce? Even the Christians in her family are against me, where is their leaning on their understanding of the Bible? There are no answers, I must only trust, hope, and pray.Joe

Billiam you said "If I had any inkling of a chance to save my marriage I would have worked on saving it, but with what I knew and good avice from my pastor and counselors, I proceeded with divorce "First off you cant save your marriage, you are not God. Second off doesnt sound like you got such good advice to me. Third, yes we do have freewill and God is greater than even our faith let alone our freewill. God is in the business of breaking oour freewills so we will turn our lives over to Him and His will. My W is a prime example. She had the hardest heart you could imagine. She became a meth junkie. Yes she has payed a high price for her sins. She has Hep C and is dying of cirrosis of the liver. She finally turned her heart and life back to the Lord and me. It took almost 3 years of hell but God was faithful. God still answers prayers. God is not pleased with many pastors and counselors. All the ones ive talked with told me God cant handle it and i should divorce.(not in so many words) Many seem to forget that their own freewill has gotten in the way and they have choosen not to trust and beleive God can heal and restore their marriage's so they justiify divorce, but it was only their own freewill winning over Gods. Not many will make it thru this i know. Thats why the bible calls this the narrow road. Ive never known persecution like i know now.And its by people who claim to be christians. I understand we live in a fallen world. This life sucks. Its full of pain and sorrow. But we have a choice to glorify God with our lives or satan. We tend to forget how much Christ suffered for our redemtion. You might want to ask yourself, have you repented of your unforgiveness, or are you justifying what your own freewill choose and calling it Gods will. Just something to think about. Mark

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lostpup: Billiam you said "If I had any inkling of a chance to save my marriage I would have worked on saving it, but with what I knew and good avice from my pastor and counselors, I proceeded with divorce "First off you cant save your marriage, you are not God. Second off doesnt sound like you got such good advice to me. Third, yes we do have freewill and God is greater than even our faith let alone our freewill. God is in the business of breaking oour freewills so we will turn our lives over to Him and His will. My W is a prime example. She had the hardest heart you could imagine. She became a meth junkie. Yes she has payed a high price for her sins. She has Hep C and is dying of cirrosis of the liver. She finally turned her heart and life back to the Lord and me. It took almost 3 years of hell but God was faithful. God still answers prayers. God is not pleased with many pastors and counselors. All the ones ive talked with told me God cant handle it and i should divorce.(not in so many words) Many seem to forget that their own freewill has gotten in the way and they have choosen not to trust and beleive God can heal and restore their marriage's so they justiify divorce, but it was only their own freewill winning over Gods. Not many will make it thru this i know. Thats why the bible calls this the narrow road. Ive never known persecution like i know now.And its by people who claim to be christians. I understand we live in a fallen world. This life sucks. Its full of pain and sorrow. But we have a choice to glorify God with our lives or satan. We tend to forget how much Christ suffered for our redemtion. You might want to ask yourself, have you repented of your unforgiveness, or are you justifying what your own freewill choose and calling it Gods will. Just something to think about. Mark<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My brothers Let's be nice, Eph. 4:32 Be ye kind tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.Joe

I am kind of new to this...although I have been praying for sometime for my marriage...I too thought I was doing all the right things. I wondered why God wasn't changing my husband. God will not work on your spouse until you let him change you and mold you into the husband/wife you should be. I prayed for God to help me and about a year ago I found Restorem.org ministry. I am a women so I do not know how the book is for the men. But the women that wrote this book has so much wisdom and knowledge she learned from being obedient to God. To really listening to him. God wants your marriage restored. You need to find out what a husband should be. Look up all the scripture and start renewing your mind. Pray that you would love your wife as Christ loves the Church. and believe it. God's word does not come back void, he is faithful. I know I needed to repent to my husband for being an awful wife. I was very selfish and didn't even know it until the word of God convicted me. I asked God for a list of what to do, how to be a good wife. I was directed to that website and her book How God Can and will Restore you marriage. I must have been to every marriage ministry on the net. Bought every Book if you don't trust God completely...For Lack of knowledge your marriage will perish. Go to the website and get the book and if you do have then read it again. I myself really can't help you with how a husband should be, because I have been concentrating on myself. Praise God my marriage is being restored every day. My husband and I are growing as friends, which we never were. I have such a love for him that I never had before. Only God can do that.I will pray for you and I am looking forward to hearing about your restored marriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by krrd867: I am kind of new to this...although I have been praying for sometime for my marriage...I too thought I was doing all the right things. I wondered why God wasn't changing my husband. God will not work on your spouse until you let him change you and mold you into the husband/wife you should be. I prayed for God to help me and about a year ago I found Restorem.org ministry. I am a women so I do not know how the book is for the men. But the women that wrote this book has so much wisdom and knowledge she learned from being obedient to God. To really listening to him. God wants your marriage restored. You need to find out what a husband should be. Look up all the scripture and start renewing your mind. Pray that you would love your wife as Christ loves the Church. and believe it. God's word does not come back void, he is faithful. I know I needed to repent to my husband for being an awful wife. I was very selfish and didn't even know it until the word of God convicted me. I asked God for a list of what to do, how to be a good wife. I was directed to that website and her book How God Can and will Restore you marriage. I must have been to every marriage ministry on the net. Bought every Book if you don't trust God completely...For Lack of knowledge your marriage will perish. Go to the website and get the book and if you do have then read it again. I myself really can't help you with how a husband should be, because I have been concentrating on myself. Praise God my marriage is being restored every day. My husband and I are growing as friends, which we never were. I have such a love for him that I never had before. Only God can do that.I will pray for you and I am looking forward to hearing about your restored marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I appreciate your suggestion. I have the two books for men form Restoration Ministries and have just finished them. I have also just read Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson. There is a little contrast of approach between the two. Right now I am planning on going with the Dobson approach. I am "releasing" my wife from our marriage because I didn't force her into it I can't force her to stay in it. Besides I don't really like this new person that is in my house and is mothering my children. She is two faced and very sneaky. My wife was a wonderful girl. It is very confusing because they both look like the same person but they can't be.I have been changing. My walk is getting closer to God daily, but my wife DOESN'T CARE!!! I will benifit from being closer to God but my wife just views it as hypocracy. I have been a Christian for many years but I had stopped living for the Lord the way I ought to. She knows this and anything I do now she just views as a ploy. It doesn't matter anyway like I said this new woman in my house isn't very nice. She is mean and sneaky, she is cute like my old wife but this person must be her evil twin because it just isn't her. I am trusting in the Lord with all my heart and not leaning on my own understanding right now, and I am benifiting greatly from my new walk with God... But my wife DOESN'T CARE.Joe

Joe, I tried to find clues as to why as you state your Christian wife and her Christian family have turned ooon you far enought to support her divorce proceedings. I understand why the divorce papers say irroconcilable differences and that is because that is what most divorce attorneys adivise to make things simpler and move faster. Also because most people dopn't want to make public why they are seeking divorce, they believe their spouse knows the reason and that is enough. If you truly don't know why your wife is divorcing you ASK and I'm sure that she will tell you. Without this information there is no chance of asking for forgiveness and working towards reconciliation.As I told you in earlier writings my wife had an affair. I filed in much the same way because I felt that it would be wrong to reveal my wifes sin, it's up to God. When she had to tell her family, they were very angry with her and they're not even Christians. Your wifes family must feel that whatever you have done justifies divorce or they wouldn't be supporting. After she tells you why and if it's true, then accept what she says, but if her statement is false go to them with the truth. I'm going to list a few things that I think of what would illict family support ofr divorce: adultery, physical or emotional abuse, abandonment, drug or alcohol abuse, criminal behavior, lying or cheating without remorse, leaving the Christian faith for another religion. I would find it hard to believe that her Christian family would support her without cause when my wife's non-christian family didn't support her actions and requested me to continue being apart of their family.I would strongly disagree with the statement that you will have to pay for what you've done, but would accept consequences for your action. Once you are forgiven, you're set free from the obligation of debt.This forum offers a level of animinity because we don't have to reveal who we are allowing us the freedom to be honest about who we are without fear of being judged. It also allows us to vent our frustrations, seek guidence and support from others who are going through or have gone through divorce.You have spent a great abount of time making negative statements about your wife, that's normal with what you are going through right now, but you have said little about your part in the demise of your marriage. Joe it's difficult to to adivse or even relate if we don't have a balanced picture of your marriage. Your not knowing why you're hearded for divorce may be an indication of your marriage problems in that you are might be in great denial as to your part of this marriage failure.None of us ae perfect are perfect and you don't have to be perfect either for us to accept and help you. You have stated that you have drawn closer to God and have changed the way that you live your life and practice your faith. Each one of us is growing in knowledge and faith as we choose and it sounds like this divorce has been a wakeup call for you. Your actions now will take time to bear the fruit of your labors just like your actions in the past are now bearing very negative fruit. Here is one example from your writings. You said that you knew the word of God said not not go around talking to people about your wife and her shortcomings, but you felt that saving your marriage was more important. YOu felt that you knew more than God and chose to disobey Him. Looking back now, do you really think that going around telling everyone helped or hindered your cause? My guess is that your wife can't see the changes you have made because all she seeing now is a guy bashing her to all her friends.This is why God gave us the instruction to guard our tongues because of the damage they can cause. Each time I have ignored God's principles I have alway bore negative fruit and sometimes I've done the same thign several times until I realized how foolish I was and change what I was doing to Gods way. I'm a slow learner at times.Joe the fruit of my acions in my marriage created an enviroment conducive to adltery and divorce. I worked all the time or was involved in my children's activities that I neglected my wife. She in turn went out and found someone to fill her emotional and physical needs that obviously I had not fulfilled. Does that justify her actions, no, but I understand and accept my responsibility for the demise of my marriage.Finally you state that you have released your wife, then let your actions be congruent with tat statement. Trust God to work on her and heart. Nothing you say will change her heart, but your actions just might. I would sit down with her and find out what you have done, and ask for forgiveness, accept responsibility for your actions and offer to make ammends without the the intent of reconciliation, but because it's Gods way of living our life. I would then attempt to work out a plan that would allow you to live peacefully together until you seperate upon divorce. Attempt to minimize conflict by putting inot writing agreements on how you two will run the house and pay the bills. I remember when I did this, it took several hours of looking at what it cost to run the house and take care of the childrens needs. In the end, I paid far more than my wife, but she took care of most of the childrens needs, ccoking, cleaning laundry. Plus I make more money than her so I paid a higher percentage of my income in an attempt to be fair and just. These things we did so that our divorce would have a minimal impact as possible on the children. I know that by what you have stated that your wifeis having some emotional problems and maybe with this it will assist her in regaining herself just like you have this divorce has drawn you closer to God and shown you your shortcomings. Remember this, the divorce is never fianl until the paperwork is signed by both. Just maybe, by faith, while you ae working together she will be able to see the new man you have become and her heart will soften towards you. I know that last statement will take faith, but we are called to live a life of faith. Even after the paparwork is signed you will always be a part of her life because of the children. Couples have rekindling their relationship after all has settled down, letting the past hurts and failure heal with time and space. But the more contensious you are towards divorce the less chance you will have at ever reconciling or even just being friends.Joe, may God be with you and help you search your heart, just as David searched his heart before God so that he would not sin against Him. I've spent the last 5 years on my face before God and He continually reveals Himself to me and shows me who I really am, not how I perceive myself. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. Each day I fall short of His glory, but He restore my faith and me. His word is a light unto my feet and the measure of my conduct.

It hay be a Medical problem. Ask her out of respect for all your years of marriage and for the sake of your children to go to the Doctor for a complete Phy. CBC, Depression survey, etc....... Ask her to go for independent counciling joint if she will. If; she rejects all these request tell her you love her and that you want to save the marriage but you will not stand in the way. Give her love and support but make it very clear you want her as your wife for all time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by billiam1: Joe, I tried to find clues as to why as you state your Christian wife and her Christian family have turned ooon you far enought to support her divorce proceedings. I understand why the divorce papers say irroconcilable differences and that is because that is what most divorce attorneys adivise to make things simpler and move faster. Also because most people dopn't want to make public why they are seeking divorce, they believe their spouse knows the reason and that is enough. If you truly don't know why your wife is divorcing you ASK and I'm sure that she will tell you. Without this information there is no chance of asking for forgiveness and working towards reconciliation.As I told you in earlier writings my wife had an affair. I filed in much the same way because I felt that it would be wrong to reveal my wifes sin, it's up to God. When she had to tell her family, they were very angry with her and they're not even Christians. Your wifes family must feel that whatever you have done justifies divorce or they wouldn't be supporting. After she tells you why and if it's true, then accept what she says, but if her statement is false go to them with the truth. I'm going to list a few things that I think of what would illict family support ofr divorce: adultery, physical or emotional abuse, abandonment, drug or alcohol abuse, criminal behavior, lying or cheating without remorse, leaving the Christian faith for another religion. I would find it hard to believe that her Christian family would support her without cause when my wife's non-christian family didn't support her actions and requested me to continue being apart of their family.I would strongly disagree with the statement that you will have to pay for what you've done, but would accept consequences for your action. Once you are forgiven, you're set free from the obligation of debt.This forum offers a level of animinity because we don't have to reveal who we are allowing us the freedom to be honest about who we are without fear of being judged. It also allows us to vent our frustrations, seek guidence and support from others who are going through or have gone through divorce.You have spent a great abount of time making negative statements about your wife, that's normal with what you are going through right now, but you have said little about your part in the demise of your marriage. Joe it's difficult to to adivse or even relate if we don't have a balanced picture of your marriage. Your not knowing why you're hearded for divorce may be an indication of your marriage problems in that you are might be in great denial as to your part of this marriage failure.None of us ae perfect are perfect and you don't have to be perfect either for us to accept and help you. You have stated that you have drawn closer to God and have changed the way that you live your life and practice your faith. Each one of us is growing in knowledge and faith as we choose and it sounds like this divorce has been a wakeup call for you. Your actions now will take time to bear the fruit of your labors just like your actions in the past are now bearing very negative fruit. Here is one example from your writings. You said that you knew the word of God said not not go around talking to people about your wife and her shortcomings, but you felt that saving your marriage was more important. YOu felt that you knew more than God and chose to disobey Him. Looking back now, do you really think that going around telling everyone helped or hindered your cause? My guess is that your wife can't see the changes you have made because all she seeing now is a guy bashing her to all her friends.This is why God gave us the instruction to guard our tongues because of the damage they can cause. Each time I have ignored God's principles I have alway bore negative fruit and sometimes I've done the same thign several times until I realized how foolish I was and change what I was doing to Gods way. I'm a slow learner at times.Joe the fruit of my acions in my marriage created an enviroment conducive to adltery and divorce. I worked all the time or was involved in my children's activities that I neglected my wife. She in turn went out and found someone to fill her emotional and physical needs that obviously I had not fulfilled. Does that justify her actions, no, but I understand and accept my responsibility for the demise of my marriage.Finally you state that you have released your wife, then let your actions be congruent with tat statement. Trust God to work on her and heart. Nothing you say will change her heart, but your actions just might. I would sit down with her and find out what you have done, and ask for forgiveness, accept responsibility for your actions and offer to make ammends without the the intent of reconciliation, but because it's Gods way of living our life. I would then attempt to work out a plan that would allow you to live peacefully together until you seperate upon divorce. Attempt to minimize conflict by putting inot writing agreements on how you two will run the house and pay the bills. I remember when I did this, it took several hours of looking at what it cost to run the house and take care of the childrens needs. In the end, I paid far more than my wife, but she took care of most of the childrens needs, ccoking, cleaning laundry. Plus I make more money than her so I paid a higher percentage of my income in an attempt to be fair and just. These things we did so that our divorce would have a minimal impact as possible on the children. I know that by what you have stated that your wifeis having some emotional problems and maybe with this it will assist her in regaining herself just like you have this divorce has drawn you closer to God and shown you your shortcomings. Remember this, the divorce is never fianl until the paperwork is signed by both. Just maybe, by faith, while you ae working together she will be able to see the new man you have become and her heart will soften towards you. I know that last statement will take faith, but we are called to live a life of faith. Even after the paparwork is signed you will always be a part of her life because of the children. Couples have rekindling their relationship after all has settled down, letting the past hurts and failure heal with time and space. But the more contensious you are towards divorce the less chance you will have at ever reconciling or even just being friends.Joe, may God be with you and help you search your heart, just as David searched his heart before God so that he would not sin against Him. I've spent the last 5 years on my face before God and He continually reveals Himself to me and shows me who I really am, not how I perceive myself. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. Each day I fall short of His glory, but He restore my faith and me. His word is a light unto my feet and the measure of my conduct. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bill Please believe I would take the blame for everything if it would help. I have been far from perfect, but I insist I did not know I was doing ANYTHING that she found bothersome EXCEPT she felt I watched too much TV and I complained about some organizational things around the house. She now says I didn't do ANYTHING right for over 20 years---come on give me a break. I loved (and still do) my wife. She was a very nice person, who was sensitive towards most peole. We could talk about spiritual things and I truely enjoyed being around her. She stopped being tender toward me, but I am sure she feels it was mutual. We could have straightened things out if she would have chosen to see a counselor but that is not what she chose. Have a heart, I have done some inconsistant things here but I've been trying, sometimes the wrong way that's all, I'm human. I read your advice, but I am giving up. Today my lawyer told she is serving me interrogatories. You may have a better understanding of what they are than I do. They make me prove my finances are what I claim. She now even thinks I am a sneak and a liar. I'm not. I'm not a perfect guy, and I never was, but I love my wife as much as the day is long. I got married to honor my committments.Joe

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yesitcan!: It hay be a Medical problem. Ask her out of respect for all your years of marriage and for the sake of your children to go to the Doctor for a complete Phy. CBC, Depression survey, etc....... Ask her to go for independent counciling joint if she will. If; she rejects all these request tell her you love her and that you want to save the marriage but you will not stand in the way. Give her love and support but make it very clear you want her as your wife for all time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Yes According to my pastor, who she did counsel with briefly, she is depressed and her depression manifests itself in her eating disorder. She has been on medication for it for a long time (at least five years). I never knew enough about eating disorders, but I always supported her. She is seeing a secular therapist right now, but I am sure her therapist is telling her to go ahead and divorce if she wants. I appreciate your suggestions but she will not talk to me about anything that has to do with us. Joe

I'm not going to get in too deep about this discussion, but this statement caught me."I'm going to list a few things that I think of what would illict family support ofr divorce: adultery, physical or emotional abuse, abandonment, drug or alcohol abuse, criminal behavior, lying or cheating without remorse, leaving the Christian faith for another religion."Not only are adultery and the others NOT grounds for divorce, they are GROUNDS FOR FORGIVENESS. You can seek the infallible word of God to look for the grounds for divorce, but you will not find them. The closest you get to is adultery, and the biblical definition refers to adultery as fornication before the marriage covenant is sealed. In addition, the book of Hosea is an example of a spouse forgiving adultery. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away from the truth, and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cbrixius: I'm not going to get in too deep about this discussion, but this statement caught me."I'm going to list a few things that I think of what would illict family support ofr divorce: adultery, physical or emotional abuse, abandonment, drug or alcohol abuse, criminal behavior, lying or cheating without remorse, leaving the Christian faith for another religion."Not only are adultery and the others NOT grounds for divorce, they are GROUNDS FOR FORGIVENESS. You can seek the infallible word of God to look for the grounds for divorce, but you will not find them. The closest you get to is adultery, and the biblical definition refers to adultery as fornication before the marriage covenant is sealed. In addition, the book of Hosea is an example of a spouse forgiving adultery. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away from the truth, and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cbrixius I agree, Amen. What do you thing about church discipline? Our church is definitely going to begin the process based on Matt.18. I don't view this so much as an effort to win her back but as fulfilling a scriptual obligation? Also hopefully it will put the scriptures that show what she is doing wrong, in her face. However I don't know how it will affect me with us being in the same house and how my children will react to the discipline. Only one child goes to church with me, the other goes with her. I will not have my son in the service when the discipline takes place.Joe

Cbrixius, You misunderstood what I stated, I said reasons why a family might support their daughter in devorce proceedings, I have never stated that those grounds are scriptial grounds for divorce. I will state that adultery is grounds for divorce as per Jesus's statement and disagree with your interpetation of divorce. I will agree that all counts that I stated are grounds to ask for forgiveness, but I also state that God's principles and laws are in place so that we will not hve to face the consequences of our sins. Someone could forgive andultery, but the damage that adultery causes and the effect on both parties are still in place. Also, with adultery, you break the marriage covenant and enter into a new covenant with the person you slept with. This is why Christ Allows divorce for adultery. Let me restate, ALLOWS, but is not required with Jesus giving the offended party the option. Divorce shuld not be used or viewed as a punishment, but as a direct result of adultery. Jumping to 2 Timothy 4:3-4 reference I would agree with the point you're attempting to make and that is why we have so many different religious denominations, and that is the danger of selecting individual scriptures and basing a doctrine on that scripture. We must learn to read the scriptures to learn Gods principles and how they apply to our lives. We must not attempt to use scripture to justify our actions, but follows the principles the scriptures teach us on living in this world.Two things or quotes that I have noticed being used to justify action here in Marriage Builders forum is, "God hates divorce." I agree with the statement but accept Gods exceptions because He gives the exception base on His wisdon and Knowlege of sexual sin and the fact that we live in a broken world. In a perfect world, sin and divorce will not be an issue, but here on earth they are and they carry consequences because of the resutlts actins have here based on Gods laws. In the church we have to be careful how we treat and judge the divorced person by taking into account the reason for divorce and hold that reason up to the light of scripture instead of judging all divorcees the same. Second, I have read it stated over and over again, divorce is not God's will. Yes, Gods design for the world was one man, one woman, but once sin enters the picture, God allows for, by His grace exceptions based on His knowlege,not ours.Cbrixius, Joe is not dealing with adultery because in earlier statements he made it clear that he has not ever,nor did he beleive his spouse has ever committed adultery. If I'm wrong in this assumtion Joe, I apologize, but this is what you have lead me to beleive by what you have written based on your statements that your not knowing what you have done for your loving wife to want to divorce you and you have made no statement stating that your wife has committed adultery, but stated she is having emotional problems at the present time.The reason I spent so much time clarifing what I beleive is the one reason Jesus stated that divorce is permissable was to help you look at what the grounds in which you could ask the church to step in with your wife. The one difficulty today with church disapline is that there are so many churches and churches are not community based any longer. When the scriptures were written churches there was only one church and the church body was the center of community life. Today, that is not so, which greatly hinders the chuch in administering church discipline. I say that not to detour you but to let you know the difficulty you might be facing and the possible limited results you could achieve. I remember discussing this with my pastor and because my wife was no longer attending the church all that could be done was for her membership to be revoked, which was done but really didn't matter to her. If you are attending the same church then by all means I would encourge getting your pastor involved.As for having children present at the church discipline meeting for your wife, I would encourage you to have them there with you so they can see the results of disobeying Gods commands and see first hand the consequences of sin. tht is why the final stage of church discipline is a public service. If the service is done in love and compassion with the objective of bringing her back and restoring her to the faith then there should be nothing to fear with having your children at the service.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by billiam1: Cbrixius, You misunderstood what I stated, I said reasons why a family might support their daughter in devorce proceedings, I have never stated that those grounds are scriptial grounds for divorce. I will state that adultery is grounds for divorce as per Jesus's statement and disagree with your interpetation of divorce. I will agree that all counts that I stated are grounds to ask for forgiveness, but I also state that God's principles and laws are in place so that we will not hve to face the consequences of our sins. Someone could forgive andultery, but the damage that adultery causes and the effect on both parties are still in place. Also, with adultery, you break the marriage covenant and enter into a new covenant with the person you slept with. This is why Christ Allows divorce for adultery. Let me restate, ALLOWS, but is not required with Jesus giving the offended party the option. Divorce shuld not be used or viewed as a punishment, but as a direct result of adultery. Jumping to 2 Timothy 4:3-4 reference I would agree with the point you're attempting to make and that is why we have so many different religious denominations, and that is the danger of selecting individual scriptures and basing a doctrine on that scripture. We must learn to read the scriptures to learn Gods principles and how they apply to our lives. We must not attempt to use scripture to justify our actions, but follows the principles the scriptures teach us on living in this world.Two things or quotes that I have noticed being used to justify action here in Marriage Builders forum is, "God hates divorce." I agree with the statement but accept Gods exceptions because He gives the exception base on His wisdon and Knowlege of sexual sin and the fact that we live in a broken world. In a perfect world, sin and divorce will not be an issue, but here on earth they are and they carry consequences because of the resutlts actins have here based on Gods laws. In the church we have to be careful how we treat and judge the divorced person by taking into account the reason for divorce and hold that reason up to the light of scripture instead of judging all divorcees the same. Second, I have read it stated over and over again, divorce is not God's will. Yes, Gods design for the world was one man, one woman, but once sin enters the picture, God allows for, by His grace exceptions based on His knowlege,not ours.Cbrixius, Joe is not dealing with adultery because in earlier statements he made it clear that he has not ever,nor did he beleive his spouse has ever committed adultery. If I'm wrong in this assumtion Joe, I apologize, but this is what you have lead me to beleive by what you have written based on your statements that your not knowing what you have done for your loving wife to want to divorce you and you have made no statement stating that your wife has committed adultery, but stated she is having emotional problems at the present time.The reason I spent so much time clarifing what I beleive is the one reason Jesus stated that divorce is permissable was to help you look at what the grounds in which you could ask the church to step in with your wife. The one difficulty today with church disapline is that there are so many churches and churches are not community based any longer. When the scriptures were written churches there was only one church and the church body was the center of community life. Today, that is not so, which greatly hinders the chuch in administering church discipline. I say that not to detour you but to let you know the difficulty you might be facing and the possible limited results you could achieve. I remember discussing this with my pastor and because my wife was no longer attending the church all that could be done was for her membership to be revoked, which was done but really didn't matter to her. If you are attending the same church then by all means I would encourge getting your pastor involved.As for having children present at the church discipline meeting for your wife, I would encourage you to have them there with you so they can see the results of disobeying Gods commands and see first hand the consequences of sin. tht is why the final stage of church discipline is a public service. If the service is done in love and compassion with the objective of bringing her back and restoring her to the faith then there should be nothing to fear with having your children at the service.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bill My wife has not committed adultry to the best of my knowledge. To the best of my knowledge there is no other man. There may be a man or two that is interested in her at work however, I know because I intercepted a note from an admirer of hers. Believe me I HAD NO IDEA SHE WAS UNHAPPY IN OUR MARRIAGE OR WITH ME. Things could have been better, I suggested we go for marriage counseling many times the past three years because I believed things could have been improved, but she was not interested. She even initiated an intimate time (I am trying to be descreet here) exactly one week before all this came down, and for her to initiate anthing intimate is very unusual. Neither one of us was where we should have been spiritually. We were having family devotions, which I lead, with our two children nightly however. Her perception of many things is different than mine however. Even the devotions she remembers as being perhaps once a week. I asked both my children (separately) how often we had devotions and they both agreed it was nightly while only missing occassionally. Did I do wrong? Of course, but I would have liked to have a chance to be a better husband. Even my pastor said that my wife refuses to take responsiblity for any of the problems in our marriage, when face facts, it does take two.Joe

Amen Cbrixmus, I couldnt agree with you more. I think im the modern day Hosea because my story is very simular. Many are looking for answers to questions only God knows. When our situations first hit, we try to figure them out. We try to figure God out. The fact is, we are in spiritual warfare. The devil is out to destroy us , our mates and our marriages. he will use everything that can be used againts us. People, family, church family, depression, etc. When we try to figure it all out, then we really are not trusting in God, but our own strenth. You got to get it into your spirit, that the devil is not going to win this war, simply because we trust God for the victory in His time, in His way. Most give God a year and give up, thinking it was Gods will that the marriage ends. Is that what the bible says? Nope. Its says wait patiently on God. Our mates are victims of the enemy. Taken prisoner, and brainwashed(deceived) againts us. We need to love and forgive them, and continue to pray for them and not weary. We find out how much we really love them when our marriages are attacked. We also find out how much we really trust God. Many of our families, christian or otherwise are easy puppets for the enemy to control againts us. Its very effective. Most of our friends have divorced and want us to join them in their misery, so they pretend it was the best thing they ever did. The bible says they think its strange when we dont join them in their sin and take the wide road.Christ layed His life down for us sinners. We nailed Him to the cross. Why are so many unwilling to lay down their selfish lives for their mates, whom they claimed to love with all their hearts, until of course things change. What changed is the enemy has attacked them. They are not the enemy. Let us continue to trust God to restore our mates hearts and our marriages, and let nothing shake us. What can be shaken will be shaken. God put us here to glorify His name, not to satisfy our selfish needs. When we glorify Him, we find peace no matter how bad things look. Easier said than done i know. It took me a few years to get past the yeah right, its all over but the cryin, but somehow God gave me strenth when i had none left, and when i asked God to help me in my unbelief that He would do anything good in my life for the rest of my days(i was angry at God)He acually honored that prayer and helped me. Dear Lord, i pray that you would give all of us here at MB the encouragement to make it the rest of the way, when we loose hope, and give us your strenth to see past our circumstances and help us in our unbelief in times of doubt. Lord i lift our wayward mates up to you that you would change thheir hearts and turn them back to you and us Lord. Come againts the enemy Lord for what he has done to our mates. Turn this all around for good Lord. May your name be glorified. In Jesus name, Amen Mark

Totally off topic but ...Lostpup,I remembered that you are also in the UK. I would be interested in hearing your story.Email plecostomous@hotmail.com if you are up for a chat sometime.Plec.

Plec, im acually in the US on the west coast. Do you live in the UK? Wish i did... Mark

Joe the librarian,I don't know your situation very well. But your quote of "How can she be so cheerful" did catch my eye. My husband and I are going through a divorce and I am sure he is asking that question almost every day. I have heard him say to me several times "How can you be so cheerful?" Once saying something like "You are a very cold person and a uncaring person." It eats him up inside for him to see me happy. I am only sad when the subject of he and I comes up. This is because during our marriage he has hurt me deeply and our marriage is the only thing in my life that does make me sad. I see him slowly slipping in to a major depression and although I am not in love with him anymore, I do worry about him. I wonder how this can be healthy for him and what purpose would it serve if I to were to be defeated by this horrible torment we are both going through. Well, he doesn't understand my personality is to not show my emotions on the outside and also to fight depression and any part of being sad. By nature I am just a cheerful person. Also, several months before we separated I did fight a major depression. This was the only time in my life, I found myself so incredibly depressed. It scared me and now that I am through the depression, I never want to let it take over again. It make me realize how depression can take over so quickly. I am not going to let this tear me up inside and destroy me, but more than that I need to remain strong and happy for the children's sake. Although, deep inside I am tormented by this every day. The last thing I ever wanted was for us to be divorced. I just wanted to tell you not to feel so bad just because she is happy on the outside. She is just handling things differently than you.Also, I would like to say if she is cheerful until the discussion turns to you and her, then maybe you should be asking why that is. Maybe you do need to change or maybe not, but I do think it is time you take a good hard look at you and what you bring to your marriage. Also, you may have already read it, but the book "Men are from mars, women are from venus" is an excellent book for you to read or go back and reread.Good luck. Anna

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anna2000: [B]Joe the librarian,I don't know your situation very well. But your quote of "How can she be so cheerful" did catch my eye. My husband and I are going through a divorce and I am sure he is asking that question almost every day. I have heard him say to me several times "How can you be so cheerful?" Once saying something like "You are a very cold person and a uncaring person." It eats him up inside for him to see me happy. I am only sad when the subject of he and I comes up. This is because during our marriage he has hurt me deeply and our marriage is the only thing in my life that does make me sad. I see him slowly slipping in to a major depression and although I am not in love with him anymore, I do worry about him. I wonder how this can be healthy for him and what purpose would it serve if I to were to be defeated by this horrible torment we are both going through. Well, he doesn't understand my personality is to not show my emotions on the outside and also to fight depression and any part of being sad. By nature I am just a cheerful person. Also, several months before we separated I did fight a major depression. This was the only time in my life, I found myself so incredibly depressed. It scared me and now that I am through the depression, I never want to let it take over again. It make me realize how depression can take over so quickly. I am not going to let this tear me up inside and destroy me, but more than that I need to remain strong and happy for the children's sake. Although, deep inside I am tormented by this every day. The last thing I ever wanted was for us to be divorced. I just wanted to tell you not to feel so bad just because she is happy on the outside. She is just handling things differently than you.Also, I would like to say if she is cheerful until the discussion turns to you and her, then maybe you should be asking why that is. Maybe you do need to change or maybe not, but I do think it is time you take a good hard look at you and what you bring to your marriage. Also, you may have already read it, but the book "Men are from mars, women are from venus" is an excellent book for you to read or go back and reread.Good luck.Anna I sincerely appreciate your suggestions but I will tell you that I am the most introspective person alive right now. Many times a day I quote Psalms 139:23&24, "Search me, O God and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting". Believe me I am a better man that I was 6 months ago when this all began. I am a better man for the sake of our relationship hoping my wife will notice and care, but she doesn't. But God notices. I can only be the best me I can be for the sake of my walk with God. My walk with the Lord is a minute by minute battle so that I will never be what I was before this happened. I look at this as a spiritual wake up call. But my wife doesn't care.I am responsible. I could have been a better husband. I could have been a better spiritual leader. I could have been a better example, but now it really looks like I won't get a chance. I married for life and 20 years is certainly a large part of my life. God is refining me right now and I know God loves me but it hurts so bad that I have to go through this refining furnace to come out more useful for God on the other side. I do deserve this, but my children certainly don't. My 15 year old daughter doesn't have any concerns for God anymore and my wife is not directing her that way, but I still believe it is my fault. I love my wife but I gotta admit right now she is not looking so good to me right now. She was the most beautiful woman alive to me just a few months ago. She had a heart of gold. She has changed. I believe I have changed too, for the better, but she doesn't care. I just have to do what is right as best as I know how and I will come through this hurt, poorer, but hopefully being the man God wants me to be. God chastens his children. He wouldn't allow me to go through this is He didn't love me. I believe I have learned but me wife doesn't care.I am familiar with the book Men Are From Mars. I have not read it but it has been recommended to me. Right now I am reading and listening anything I can get my hands on that may be helpful to me.I didn't know my marriage was in trouble believe me if I knew I would have done something but my wife my (onetime) beautiful wife (who used to have a heart of gold) doesn't care. Didn't you give your husband a chance to correct what you saw as his mistakes? Everyone who is objective (neither a relative or friend or either one of us) like our pastor and one person from our church and another person from another church who are friend's of both of us, believe our marriage shouldn't be breaking up. There is not scriptual reason, and even the psychological reasons are weak but my wife doesn't care. Am I innocent? Certainly not! Would I do something if I could? Well I am a better me now than I ever was before but my wife just doesn't care, but I know I am going through the refining fire of God and I will be more usable for Him when I am through all this.Joe [This message has been edited by Joe the librarian (edited September 09, 2001).][This message has been edited by Joe the librarian (edited September 09, 2001).]