The Doc and the Preacher - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Hello all,I’ve posted to a few threads, and it is time I share my story.I am both a BS and WS. Most recently, WS. First some history. I was married the day after I turned 18. I lived in an extremely abusive home and was terrified every moment of the day. H came in on white stallion, armor and all and rescued me. For that, I have always been grateful. We have had many struggles in our marriage, but have always been friends. My biggest struggle is that I have never been in love with him. I have been thankful to him for rescuing me, but had he asked me to marry him under different circumstances, I’m certain I would have said no. I made a vow to myself at 13 that I would never get married. That was before I moved into the abusive home and needed, or so I thought, rescuing.I had our first daughter by choice. I thought having a child would help me build feelings for him. Sharing an experience like that would surely bring on those feelings. Our second daughter was a total shock. First time we had unprotected sex since first D. I knew the moment we were done that I was pregnant. It devastated me on many levels. Mainly, I felt locked in. I withdrew dramatically from sex specifically and from our relationship in general. He had an affair 7 years ago. I was scared to be alone and was at a place in my relationship with God where I felt it was best to forgive. I did and have not regretted it. He has spent the last seven years proving his trustworthiness to me. I have consistently asked God to give me love for him. I care about his well being, but I don’t have abiding love for him.Jumping ahead, I have struggled for years with what to do. I am at a place now, where I could make it financially if he offered support. I know CS would be a given and know that I would be fine in that regard. I am an extremely analytical person, too much so, and thought that if I had an affair, he would surely leave me and my problem would be solved. I sought someone out who is single and had no feelings for me. He is a player by most standards, and I knew there would be no emotional entanglement. We had a brief affair. Before I could unveil my duplicity to my husband, he found out. D-Day was 02/16/02. Unbeknownst to me, he is much more forgiving than I thought and immediately told me that he forgave me and wanted our marriage to work. Things did not go according to my best laid plans.We separated almost immediately, him going first to his parents back east, then to stay with a friend. I told him all that I have shared here. We decided it would be best for us both to move on and divorce. He was going to go back east for a month to get over me and then come back here (West Coast) and proceed from there. He had lost his job from being so distraught-totally my fault- so leaving for a month was not an issue.While on his way to MI, he felt led by God to go to St. Louis, where my aunt and uncle have a church and performing arts college. That’s where we were when he had his A. He feels that his true calling is to be in the full time ministry and believes that St. Louis is the best place to get training. I agree with him, but St. Louis!?!?!?A casual friendship that I had with a co-worker turned into an EA after we separated. I have never met this person, but we have to deal with each other on the phone daily. I am now in a position where I still have to talk to him because I can't yet quit my job. Ok, this story is getting much too long, but bottom line is now I am forced to leave my home to be near him and our daughters. I have also come to the realization that, while I don’t love him, it is God’s will for us to be together. I will not have another affair, and I will continue to ask God to give me love for him.I am currently struggling with having to leave my home. I’ll stop now and continue as time and space allows. Please have some grace for me. I know what I have done is utterly despicable and I am truly remorseful. Just wanted to share my story.Doc[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

HI MD,Still haven't fully figured out your choice of user name, but I suspect that I will find out eventually. A couple of questions for you.1. How long have you been married?
2. Roughly how old are you and your H?
3. Do you or your H have the children?Getting on with your post. It occurs to me you are praying for something you already have with in you. I suspect you didn't feel love for him because you had an image in your mind of the perfect/better H. He isn't it, at least as compared to your image. Interestingly, you selected men for your affairs that you weren't really interested in a long term relationship with. You sort of used them as you used your H.This suggests to me that perhaps some counceling might be useful. Why? Well, if you can use these men easily, then perhaps you have other issues dating from your upbringing that hender your ability to love.Just some armchair thoughts. But, I do KNOW one thing. God, gave you the capacity to love when you were born. I suspect you need to look inward and then at your H again. It seems to me he has some very good qualities and perhaps the passionate love you seek is being hendered by you not him. If that is the case, then you have definitely found the right place. Harley is a big proponent that love is conditional and can be developed by meeting the other persons needs.Want an example??? Look at P's posts. Why his? Most people won't survive almost three years of total neglect by their spouse. How could he do that and still maintain love? He gave love to her, he meet her needs and in the giving his love was strengthened. Now, unless she finally returns that love his will eventually fade, BUT he has gone a long ways by GIVING rather than receiving.Sounds weird doesn't it??? I thought so until I came here. As I read and started thinking about all of this, I realized that most affairs because someone GIVES to the other. The often listen to a person in trouble, having trouble in their marriage, and the more they give of themselves to help, the more likely they end up loving that person. Giving is as powerful as receiving MD.So, I do hope your prayers to find love for your H work, but I do know that actively working on your marriage will work as well, and perhaps that is all your God needs to work a miracle in you: your effort.Just so more thoughts. Hope something I said is of help. I look forward to seeing more of your posts.God Bless,JL

Hi, Doc! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I really liked what JL had to say, but (then again) I've ALWAYS liked what he had to say! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] It's so refreshing to see someone who decides to make "That kind of Commitment"! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] You came to the right place! The name of this site is, "Marriage Builders", and it appears that is exactly what YOU would like to do. Yes? Okay. Going along with what JL had to say, I'd like to add a couple of things......First of all, you're right in that God would like to see you reconcile your M. There is NO doubt that is the case with ANY M! Now, comes the hard part....... Finding those "in love" feelings you need in order to save your M. P said (just recently) in his post that "Love in a M" isn't unconditional, and he's absolutely RIGHT!! You have needs, and your H has needs. That's a fact! With that in mind.....What needs could your H fill that would make you happy? I mean, you say that you've never been in love with him. Yes? Why not? Do you think that it's a "Chemistry" thing? Is he attractive to you....Physically? What could he do that would light the fires of passion in your heart? What is HE lacking that you believe that an OM could fulfill? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] These are important questions to ask yourself, cuz you can't just wait around for "in love" feelings to happen! Think about it.... I assume you are a Christian. Yes? Okay, why do you love Jesus? Are YOU commited to him? (I mean, Jesus.) If you are....Why? Think about it......In order to commit to repairing a M, you must make the Conscious decision to commit to a PLAN (of some kind) for reconciliation. We call that Plan A, or Plan B. It appears that you (BOTH) skipped Plan A, and went directly to Plan B. If you've read any of the materials on this site, then you'll KNOW that Plan B doesn't stand a chance of working w/o a solid Plan A. P can help you with a GREAT Plan A. He's done a wonderful job of this for his W, and things are starting to FINALLY turn around a bit. Yay! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Keep posting, Doc! I'll say some prayers for ya! God Bless! HT

Still haven't fully figured out your choice of user name, but I suspect that I will find out eventually.
Comes from my initials. Doc is a nickname derived from them. Figured it works for me here.A couple of questions for you.1. How long have you been married? "Celebrated" 13 years, 11 days after DDay
2. Roughly how old are you and your H?
I'm 31, he's 35
3. Do you or your H have the children?
He has them.Getting on with your post. It occurs to me you are praying for something you already have with in you. I suspect you didn't feel love for him because you had an image in your mind of the perfect/better H. He isn't it, at least as compared to your image. You are possibly correct. The thing is, I don't even know what that image is. As I said, I never intended on getting married. When I told family that I was, every single one was shocked. They all know about the vow I had made. I was quite vocal about it. Interestingly, you selected men for your affairs that you weren't really interested in a long term relationship with. You sort of used them as you used your H.Yes, quite pathetic, isn't it?This suggests to me that perhaps some counceling might be useful. Why? Well, if you can use these men easily, then perhaps you have other issues dating from your upbringing that hender your ability to love.I have been in counseling since this happened. Unfortunately, my husband moved in such haste that he didn't have another job lined up. I am on my own financially, and I can no longer afford it. My therapist has said similar things. You are on it, JLJust some armchair thoughts. But, I do KNOW one thing. God, gave you the capacity to love when you were born. I suspect you need to look inward and then at your H again. It seems to me he has some very good qualities and perhaps the passionate love you seek is being hendered by you not him. He has great qualites. I spoke with him this afternoon and told him that I would be a fool not to stay with him, as he is wonderful. I jsut can't seem to feel it. I'm beginning to think that feelings are overratedWant an example??? Look at P's posts. Why his? Most people won't survive almost three years of total neglect by their spouse. How could he do that and still maintain love? He gave love to her, he meet her needs and in the giving his love was strengthened. Now, unless she finally returns that love his will eventually fade, BUT he has gone a long ways by GIVING rather than receiving.
So, I do hope your prayers to find love for your H work, but I do know that actively working on your marriage will work as well, and perhaps that is all your God needs to work a miracle in you: your effort.excellent analysis[b]Just so more thoughts. Hope something I said is of help. I look forward to seeing more of your posts.God Bless,JL[b]Thank you. God bless you too.[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

Hi, Doc! Hi HT!I really liked what JL had to say, but (then again) I've ALWAYS liked what he had to say! me tooIt's so refreshing to see someone who decides to make "That kind of Commitment"! You came to the right place! The name of this site is, "Marriage Builders", and it appears that is exactly what YOU would like to do. Yes? Yes 
What needs could your H fill that would make you happy? I mean, you say that you've never been in love with him. Yes? Why not? Do you think that it's a "Chemistry" thing? Is he attractive to you....Physically? What could he do that would light the fires of passion in your heart? What is HE lacking that you believe that an OM could fulfill? First, I don't believe another man is the answer, by any means. As I said, I didn't seek out these men for meaningful relationships. Nor was it becasue I thought they could meet a need my husband wasn't fulfilling. The PA was purely as a way, albeit totally warped, to give my husband an out. H has wonderfual qualities. He is attractive to me. My number one need is Financial Support. That has always been lacking. It seems antiquated to want to be provided for, but that's how I feel, nonetheless. If I can make one complaint about him, it's that he thinks that need is not valid.These are important questions to ask yourself, cuz you can't just wait around for "in love" feelings to happen! Think about it.... I assume you are a Christian. Yes? Yes I amOkay, why do you love Jesus? Are YOU commited to him? (I mean, Jesus.) If you are....Why? Think about it......I love him for what he has done for me. I am totally committed to him. He died that I might liveIt appears that you (BOTH) skipped Plan A, and went directly to Plan B.
My husband is totally committed to this marriage. He just knows nothing of the concepts. He left to "give me space". As I said in a previous post, how much space does he think I need?
P can help you with a GREAT Plan A. He's done a wonderful job of this for his W, and things are starting to FINALLY turn around a bit. Yay! I wholeheartedly agree. Go P Keep posting, Doc! I'll say some prayers for ya! God Bless! Thank you HT![ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

MD,Ok, I cannot resist. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Got to ask you a few more questions. Are you able to see things from his point of view? I mean can you empathize with him and see things from his point of view?? If you cannot, then that alone may be the issue. Often people pull inside and when they do that, they cannot see things through the other persons eyes. It seems to me that means it is very hard to love that person. If you cannot reach out with your mind and in a way touch his via being able to see things as he does,then it is tough to love.That is way often Giving leads to love in my mind. When you try to give you try to see what the other person needs, needs to hear, needs to recover from the pain. When you do that you start seeing things from their point of view.Let me offer you an example or two. You say your sexually withdrew from your H. You probably never stopped to think how much this would hurt him. Why would it hurt him besides the obvious physical discomfort and unresolved needs of a normal sex drive??The answer is that he may have seen it as you wanting to end the marriage or not loving him? He might of been right, but you stated you "forgave" him for his affair so you did care what he did and whether his affections for you were strong. Do you see what I mean??Now, in the case of your affairs, again imagine what this looked like to him. Why it hurt him. I think there is a more telling thing for you to try. Try and see what he sees when he looks at you. I'll give you a hint. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] He sees a woman he wanted to spend his life with, he sess/saw the goodness in you, he found you attractive, and finally he saw a woman that got to his heart. Why was that??Perhaps it would be useful for you to ask him some day. Try to see the world through his eyes and most importantly try to see yourself through his eyes. I think you will be surprised.More importantly when you begin to do this and you begin to talk about how HE sees things, you will find yourself seeing things differently. My guess is that eventually you will see what love really is. In a sense I have outlined for you sort of finding out needs and meeting needs approach. But, I think you need to work on seeing things differently, and a good start is to understand how your H sees things.If you can get him to open up and let you see, I suspect you will see his pain, his visions of you, and how deeply you have affected him. It will be a revelation to you.OK, this time I must go and finish the taxes.God Bless,JL

I thought maybe I'd give some history as it might shed some light on my situation. Please know that I make no excuses for all of the mistakes I have made. This is just for insight.
I won't divulge all, but will share a few things.My mother died when I was almost five. The man she was married to at the time of her death is not my biological father, but he's my dad. He legally adopted me when I was eight. However, he was 23 when she died and he didn't know what the heck he was doing. God love him, he tried. I was not given much attention. Spent a lot of time with other people or alone.He remarried when I was 11 and the woman he married hated me from the moment we met. I was first relegated to the basement and then when that wasn't far enough for her, she kicked me out of the house at 13 and I was sent to his sister. That is when I started being physically abused. I certainly have not had good role models for what love is. I know that.I think I turned 35 when my mom died. I took care of my dad when he was in the grieving process. I was very aware of my feelings. I just kept them inside, because he couldn't bear to hear them. I am very "good" at that now.I don't give affection easily. Sadly for my husband, that is his #1 EN. I struggle with it daily. And I must admit most days I fail miserably.I also struggle with being a good mother. I have no mentor on mothering and my daughters have suffered for it. Don't get me wrong, I adore them, but I'm not real good at the practical stuff. Did I mention that I'm an only child. I am finally learning to accept that arguing is not the end of the world. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] 
Whoa, I think I'll stop for now. Not too much at once.[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

JL,My you've given me a lot to think about. I have never understod why he loves me. I have so many things wrong with me.You said: "If you can get him to open up and let you see, I suspect you will see his pain, his visions of you, and how deeply you have affected him. It will be a revelation to you." He is an open book. Almost too open for me at times. I don't understand so many things about him. Namely, his seemingly undying love for me. His openness scares me.I know it is the right thing to stay married, but I don't know why he would want to be married to me. I guess that's what I need to really discover. JL: "Often people pull inside and when they do that, they cannot see things through the other persons eyes." I recognize that I am selfish in doing that. I have great difficulty in sharing what I truly feel, and I am selfish in not trying to see things as he does.You give one an awful lot to digest and think about. Are you sure you're just learning?Doc

Doc:I Wrote:
Okay, why do you love Jesus? Are YOU commited to him? (I mean, Jesus.) If you are....Why? Think about it......Your Response:
I love him for what he has done for me. I am totally committed to him. He died that I might liveGreat answer, doc! Now think about what you just said. You love him for what HE has done for you. And, you are totally commited to him. Yes? He died so that YOU might live! Yes! We call that unconditional love. Yes? Now, isn't that what your H is doing for you? I mean, the unconditional love thing? He is giving you the space you requested, even though HE WANTS to be near YOU! He's doing that for YOU............. unconditionally! This is how Jesus loves US! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] How lucky YOU are to have someone to do that for YOU! Yes? But, here's the difference....your husband is of the flesh, and so are you. That means that the love you share IS conditional. The conditions are that you both become one flesh, and one mind. Is this possible in your case? I would think so, but it takes that kind of commitment by BOTH of you! Does your H believe this? Do you? If so, then you both need to talk about it, and pray about it. Read 1 Corinthians, Chapter 7. It tells us much about what God wants for our marriage. If that's important to both of you, then talk and pray about it.Now, reference your "Feelings"...... This is the hardest thing to deal with. Feelings just are! It's very difficult to define WHY you feel something. Isn't it? In your case, you don't have this feeling, and you claim to have NEVER had this feeling. Is this something that you just figured out? I mean, did you just wake up one day, and think, "Hmmm....I don't believe that I've EVER been in love with this man!"?? Is that how it happened? Or, did you just realize that the passion is/or has been gone for quite some time, and (now) you're unhappy? Please tell us what you DO feel. You say that Financial Security is your number one need. Yes? Is that why you want him back now? I mean, because you need his money to survive? I'm sure there's more to tell here, isn't there? OK......You're turn. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] God Bless!HT

HT:You and JL sure are quick on the draw. HT: Now, reference your "Feelings"...... This is the hardest thing to deal with. Feelings just are! It's very difficult to define WHY you feel something. Isn't it? In your case, you don't have this feeling, and you claim to have NEVER had this feeling. Is this something that you just figured out? I mean, did you just wake up one day, and think, "Hmmm....I don't believe that I've EVER been in love with this man!"?? Is that how it happened? Or, did you just realize that the passion is/or has been gone for quite some time, and (now) you're unhappy? I have always been aware of my lack of love for him. I was scared for my life and saw no other way out. He was a nice guy and he wanted me. It was totally unfair of me, but I thought I would get those feelings with time. The whole speak it into being theory I had. I just came to a breaking point.Please tell us what you DO feel. You say that Financial Security is your number one need. Yes? Is that why you want him back now? I mean, because you need his money to survive? I'm sure there's more to tell here, isn't there? I know God doesn't want us to divorce. I made a choice, and regardless of the reason why, I need to stick to that commitment. I actually don't need his money to survive. I can do it on my own, but I can't keep either one of us from our daughters. There is no way I'm going to convince him to come back here, so I am the one to leave my home.
I also know that he does have wonderful qualities. I asked if love is all action in another forum. Maybe it is. Maybe that's what I've been missing all these years.I am dealing with a lot of biterness right now and that scares me. I can't tell you how much I don't want to leave my home, but I've been given no choice. I guess I'll swallow it again like I am so good at doing and get over it.[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

Doc,you've already gotten great advice from the good people here and i have no doubt that you will find some wonderful resources to help you. let me address something i'm really qualified in addressing...growing up in an abusive home and what it does to your budding psyche. believe it or not, but i probably was subject to more abuse than you....don't know your whole story, but mine would be hard to top. i can understand completely how you could marry someone you didn't truly love to escape the confines of your prison. that's not how i escaped, but if the opportunity had arisen i might have. it took many years of therapy to get past the pain that was inflicted on me...but i fortunate enough to get it before i was married....and i got something else that not many victims get....i got the chance to face my abuser....i got the validation that the things that happened to me were not my fault and not precipitated by any of my actions. it was a very healing thing. one thing i am certain of....is that you are going to first have to forgive yourself and learn to love yourself before you will ever be capable of loving your husband. who do you want to be now? a good wife. a good mother. do you have the skills to be those things? the fact that you are here tells me you are searching for those skills. it is easy to believe you are unworthy of everything when you grow up being abused....but that is only the lie that's been used to manipulate you. you are worthy....as worthy as any other person here. you need to discover your own worth.

What's up, Doc? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Sorry....I couldn't resist that one! LOL! OK, I think we're getting somewhere now. It sounds to me that THIS was a marriage of CONVIENIENCE in the beginning. Yes? Therefore, you've been trying and trying to build this love, but to no avail. Yes? I don't mean to be harsh, but....Are you bored with your marital relationship? Does this strike a nerve with you? If so, know that this happens. It's normal to become bored with the same ole same ole! A marriage is like a rollercoaster ride. Lot's of ups and downs. Is it possible that you are just on the "Down Side" of the ride? If so, what could bring you up? What could the two of you do to spice things up? Give it some thought....I think that JL hit on something VERY important, and that is: How do you think that your H feels? How would YOU feel to have ALWAYS been in love with someone, just to find out (years later) that it was ALL a lie? [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I'd bet you'd be very hurt. Yes? Try to see things from HIS point of view. Try to FEEL what HE must be feeling. Personally, I'd seek some counseling from one of the Harley's. They can help you put that spark into your M. There is a book that I just bought from a Christian Bookstore called, "What to do when the Glass Slipper Doesn't Fit". I can't remember who wrote it, but it's written by two Christian women. The book discusses why some women aren't happy with their current H's, and it gives some very good insight as to how to be happy with what you've got. Think about what you DO have, and thank God for it! OK, your turn! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] HT

Starfish,Thank you for your post. The abuse that started at thirteen was not the beginning, but I won't bore anyone with the details.Star: do you have the skills to be those things? the fact that you are here tells me you are searching for those skills. it is easy to believe you are unworthy of everything when you grow up being abused....but that is only the lie that's been used to manipulate you. you are worthy....as worthy as any other person here. you need to discover your own worth. Intellectually, I know what you are saying is true. I'm sure I'll find a way to make it stick someday. You are correct in that I am searching for the skills to be the woman I am meant to be.

i assumed your abuse began much earlier than thirteen, as did mine....takes one to know one maybe. it is less intellect...there you go analyzing again....and more spirit. my spirit is what saved me.....and while i find great strength in religion...that is not the spirit i am speaking of.

i'm about two hours behind y'all so i'm going to bed....doc....i'll make a house call tommorow...welcome.

HT:What's up, Doc? Sorry....I couldn't resist that one! LOL! Hardy har. I should have seen that one coming.OK, I think we're getting somewhere now. It sounds to me that THIS was a marriage of CONVIENIENCE in the beginning. Yes? Therefore, you've been trying and trying to build this love, but to no avail. Yes? You are correct in your assumptions.
Are you bored with your marital relationship? Does this strike a nerve with you? If so, know that this happens. It's normal to become bored with the same ole same ole! A marriage is like a rollercoaster ride. Lot's of ups and downs. Is it possible that you are just on the "Down Side" of the ride? If so, what could bring you up? What could the two of you do to spice things up? Give it some thought....I will have to give that one some thought. I think I've always been so busy trying to figure out how to make things work and why they don't that I haven't had time to be bored. Maybe I'm too much of a thinker. We've rarely lacked spice, but a lot of that is because I've expended much thought and energy into trying to feel what I should feel. You may be right, though. Again, I'll have to think on that.How would YOU feel to have ALWAYS been in love with someone, just to find out (years later) that it was ALL a lie? I'd bet you'd be very hurt. Yes? Try to see things from HIS point of view. Try to FEEL what HE must be feeling. I assume I would be heart broken. I don't want to hurt him. He is a gret guy. I hesistated telling him. I started with the whole, I love you, but I'm not in love with you line, but that wasn't being true to my feelings. He wants me to be open & honest, and while I know devestaed him, I finally gave him honesty. I'm still not sure it was the right thing to do.I do need to take the advice and try to see things from his perspective.[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

star: takes one to know one maybe. agreedit is less intellect...there you go analyzing again....and more spirit.Not sure how to stop analyzing things so much. Part of my nature, I guess. I figure if I come up with every option and every possible outcome, I'll discover the answer. That's pretty much how I've dealt with everything in life. I never said I'm always good at it, this case in point. I'm just not real good with that whole "Let go and let God" stuff.Thank you for welcoming me. And I look forward to the house call, but isn't that my line?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by MD:
I started with the whole, I love you, but I'm not in love with you line, but that wasn't being true to my feelings. He wants me to be open & honest, and while I know devestaed him, I finally gave him honesty. I'm still not sure it was the right thing to do.I do need to take the advice and try to see things from his perspective.<hr></blockquote>More than that, Doc. You need to know that honesty IS the best policy, and it takes a lot of guts to do what you've done. I admire your honesty. But, I think the problem is accepting how things are, then making the decision to make things better for your M. I do have another question for ya, then I've got to put this old body to bed. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You said, "I started with the whole, I love you, but I'm not in love with you line, but that wasn't being true to my feelings." Are you saying that you don't have any kind of "Caring" love for your H? If this is NOT the case, you WERE NOT being honest with him! And, saying, "I love you, but I'm NOT in love with you" would have been the honest thing to say. Yes? Or, are you saying that you DON'T have that "Caring" love for him either?? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
If the latter is true, I don't think you've got a snowball's chance of making your M work. Sorry, but that's just my 2 cents worth. Well, gotta hit the sack! My Mom's dying in the hospital, and my M is in the toilet, so I'd appreciate any of your prayers. I'll try to touch base again w/ you tomorrow. Okay? Goodnight! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] God Bless!HT

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by HurtTired:
Are you saying that you don't have any kind of "Caring" love for your H? If this is NOT the case, you WERE NOT being honest with him! And, saying, "I love you, but I'm NOT in love with you" would have been the honest thing to say. Yes? Or, are you saying that you DON'T have that "Caring" love for him either??
<hr></blockquote>Hmmmmm. I do care for him. I don't want to see him hurting. I'm so confused. Maybe it's true what everyone says. Maybe I do love him and just don't know what love is. HT, I know you are going through so many things yourself and I greatly appreciate you taking time to respond to my messed up thoughts.I will pray for you and your family.[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

MD,You have said a lot of things that need considering. I think you should truely get counseling for your issues caused by the abuse.Next, I think you need to consider a few things about moving. You say you feel resentment because your H won't come back to CA?? but rather wants to stay where he is. So please permit me some philosophy.MD, you and your H are young. You don't feel young but you are. Trust me if you can get this stuff sorted out, your 40's and 50's will be much more fun and much more rewarding that the 20' and 30's are. EVeryone dreads turning 30, I celebrated turning 40. I wasn't so sure about 50. The company I helped build melted down when I was 50 and I was out of work for the first time in my life. And no one really wants to hire someone "that old" [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , but I ended up founding my own company and went on. Not without some trauma but the point is: the best part of your life is ahead of you.Prepare for it!THe house you are leaving can be replaced. In your life you may well end up back in the same area. You don't know. Life is interesting that way. So don't let the move build resentment, it is the natural consequence of many events including you finally starting to truely address your issues.So lets get back to the love thing. What is your vision of love? How is it shown? What does it feel like? How do you respond when your H shows you, his love for you? When you look in the mirror what do you see?I ask that last question because I know your H seems someone very different from the person you feel you are. You know what, he is probably closer to correct.There is one last thought I think you need to consider, several actually. One, your H married you because he "needed" you in his life. Somehow you complete him, you are attractive to him, mentally and physically, and you are probably better suited to be with him than you think. Two, learning how to love someone or people is an acquired skill. It isn't just natural complete with feelings. We learn this from our families, our religion, TV, movies, books,etc. All have an affect on what we view love to be.Your situation and circumstances have not allowed you the luxury of learning from your close family. However, one thing to consider is that love is tied to needs. Many people don't believe it but this is the crux of the Harley approach. We may be attracted to people but we don't love them unless they meet our needs. Sounds cold doesn't it?? But, really look at his list. They are normal things that people "feel" they need from another human being.Well, I must go do some work, but think about this. I realize you have built many walls to protect yourself from injury both physical and mental. Given what has happened to you that is very normal. But, what you hopefully will learn is that you will be even stronger if you open up and let someone within those walls to help you.You say your H is very open and talks about what he feels. Yet, you hurt him very deeply. Has he quit opening up to you? Probably not completely. He derives his strength from opening up. He will survive this one way or another. Hiding from it won't help him survive, it will condemn him to live with it for the rest of his life.Stop and think about this. Talk with him about it. I think you can learn by hearing him, seeing things from his perspective, and finally if you do finally hear him tell you what he sees when he looks at you, it won't be who you see in the mirror. It will be a much truer picture.Must go don't even have time to proof read, sorry.God Bless,JL

Hi Doc,Well, I know what people feel like when they log onto our thread, read a bunch of stuff, then don't know where to start with a reply!I read a bunch of wonderful things. I have a lot of hope that a MB-type program could really help. Maybe I'm struggling with where to start. Let's see, it's obvious you care for your husband, but certainly don't have those romantic feelings of love that you desire. That's fair. For most of us here, we had those romantic feelings at one time, but now they've waned to just caring. So we're currently in the same boat as you. But we're also working to get those romantic feelings back. And maybe it doesn't sound so fairy tale, but I think if I met someone that truly met my needs, I could easily fall in love with them. Romantic love. It's probably also the reason that we take such precautionary measures to guard our Love Banks when our own marriages are faltering, or in transition or recovery.You said something about you being honest with your husband, and worried about whether it might be too honest. I'm not sure there is such a thing as being too honest. I think you need to take care in delivering the message, but it always needs to be truthful. With the truth, that so-so valuable insight, we have the ability to change things to improve or relationship/marriage. Both through knowing it requires a change (i.e., one or both of you not happy), and persistently honest feedback while change is underway. When all cylinders are running, when both of you are working to meet the needs of the spouse, I think romantic love is only a stones-throw away. The reason many of us struggle now is that only one is truly committed, and maybe the other lacks the belief or desire.Don't apologize for FS being a top EN. We could debate whether SF, or even Attractive Spouse SHOULD BE valid needs just as easily. But the reality is that they ARE EN's for some people, and unless they are met, that person will not be happy. Simple enough.So, you said something about an EA with a coworker. Someone that you still have contact with now. Do you still have feelings for him? Realize that my wife spent a very long time trying to just be friends with her OM, but that on several occasions it became something more anyway. That when she confessed, she realized she could not always maintain a casual relationship. I suspect if you truly had an EA, then your case would be no different. You do not want your feelings for this OM to hamper your recovery, your falling in love with your husband. That is why you need to have no contact with him.Doc, have you read Surviving an Affair. If not, I would suggest that you order it immediately. The bookstore on this website can get it to you in around five days, at a discounted price. It's going to be the best dollars you can spend (and cheapest).If the two of you are committed to developing a loving relationship, then I think you could do wonderful things with the MB program. I don't even care whether you feel like you've never loved him before. It's likely that he has missed the mark on Love Bank deposits anyway, but with some renewed, targeted effort, I think he could make Love Bank deposits and provide you with those romantic feelings of love that you desire.Also, you need to introduce negotiation into your lives. POJA. There has to be an alternative to a sacrifice move for you to St Louis. This shouldn't be one with the decision-making power, and the other expected to just go along.Ok, that's my two second mind dump at the end of lunch break. Let me know your thoughts. And order the book now, if you haven't read already.

Hi JL,You have said a lot of things that need considering. I think you should truely get counseling for your issues caused by the abuse.I agree and have been in counceling. Unfortunately, I am unable to continue. I figured out my budget and I am so in the defecit that I can't do it. I will go again when I move. Therapy scares me. I'm really bad at it, honestly, but a necessary evil, I know.Next, I think you need to consider a few things about moving. You say you feel resentment because your H won't come back to CA?? but rather wants to stay where he is. So please permit me some philosophy.THe house you are leaving can be replaced. In your life you may well end up back in the same area. You don't know. Life is interesting that way. So don't let the move build resentment, it is the natural consequence of many events including you finally starting to truely address your issues.You are beginning to sound like my H. He has said house, job, friends, all those things can be replaced. And he also says that he doesn't want to be there for the rest of his life. No guarantee that we will be back here, though. That scares me.So lets get back to the love thing. What is your vision of love? How is it shown? What does it feel like? How do you respond when your H shows you, his love for you? When you look in the mirror what do you see?I don't have a clue what my vision of love is. I love my daughters and my best friend. I assume love for my H should be different. I want to be with my daughters. I want to spend time with them. That how it is shown. We do things together and enjoy each others company. How do I respond to H's love? I feel odd. It doesn't make sense to me. When I look in the mirror, I see.....I don't understand why he loves me. I'm a messed up person. I have so many issues that I haven't dealt with. I am honestly afraid to. I am afraid that the "real" person is worse than this person. I don't particularly love me, but I am used to me.I ask that last question because I know your H seems someone very different from the person you feel you are. You know what, he is probably closer to correct.ya think? I'm not so sure.You say your H is very open and talks about what he feels. Yet, you hurt him very deeply. Has he quit opening up to you? Probably not completely.He is still very open. His inner monologue has never functioned properly. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] What he thinks, he says. Scares me sometimes.[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

P-I will respond more thoroughly later. I'm overwhelmed right now. Had a tough day.Do want to respond to one thing. Yes, I am still in contact with man from EA. It is difficult, but we do a pretty good job staying totally professional. As fas as feelings? They linger a bit, but I have been working over time to guard myself. You are right that having no contact will allow more room to work on my relationship with H. I have been in a position where I couldn't leave. My H left with no forewarning, and I had to keep this job. I'm now, a month later, in a position where I have some choices. I will either get another job immediately, or move to St. Louis within a month. Either way, contact will be broken.more later.[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

Hi, Doc! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I found something that I mailed to myself back in September, cuz it said some things about love that I thought was worth keeping. This was copied by a poster (here on MB) back in July of last year. I've copied it below. Please tell me what you think. Okay? (BTW, I hope that TS and GDP don't mind me re-posting this.)quote:
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Originally posted by TruthSeeker:
And love of a child is not the same as love for a spouse. You wouldn't (and shouldn't) have feelings of passion toward your child. But you would (and should) have feelings of passion toward your spouse. It's an entirely different relationship and I really wish people would stop comparing the two. It's apples and oranges.
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----The marital relationship is different from the parent-child relationship, but love is still love. It is unfortunate that the word "love" is used in so many different ways, but until the language changes, there will always be confusion.Here is your original post to which I responded:
quote:
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But those feelings DID come to me with no effort on my part with the OM. And no effort on his part either if I am to believe him when he said he wasn't interested. You hear about unrequited love all the time. The object of desire didn't set out to make the other fall in love with them. Furthermore, I don't beleive that a preson CAN make someone fall in love with them and still remain true to who you are. Either someone loves you for who you are or they don't. If you change into something else, it's not you they love, it's who you're pretending to be.
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----It appeared to me that you started off talking about passion and infatuation, and you ended up talking about love. You will note that it was
only in response to your final two sentences that I said "Love is a choice." You disagreed, saying "love is a feeling."I can't remember how many crushes I have had on girls who I didn't even like, let alone love. I developed an infatuation in spite of who they were. That didn't stop me from enjoying the warm gooey feelings, but it sure did stop me from pursuing relationships with them.I guess what I'm trying to say is that infatuation makes a lousy basis on which to build a marriage. I think when you choose to marry, you choose to love, or else you are doing your spouse a great disservice. I don't know why some people have a hard time developing romantic feelings for someone they have chosen to love. I suspect there are many different factors involved. But one thing I'm pretty sure of is that if you say "I will never have those kind of feelings for my spouse", you have a very good chance of fulfilling your own prophecy. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] One's feelings affect one's attitudes, which affect one's actions. And one's actions affect one's attitudes, which affect one's feelings. I
suspect that in an environment where your husband was meeting your emotional needs, there is some course of action you could take, and some
attitude that you could cultivate, that would fire up your passion for him. 
[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited July 04, 2001).]What do you think about this? Does it make any sense to you, Doc? Please let me know your thoughts. Okay? Thanks! God Bless! HT

Hello Doc,Well, it seems after reading your thoughts and how you are handling your feelings is that it is time for a decision. You say you love your children. Give them the best gift they can have - a loving relationship that you have with your husband. Show them what love can be. Show them that even though marriage has ups and downs that you didn't quit and that you worked through it. In today's society, it seems that quitting is the norm and working through problems is something of the past. Show them!You say your a Christian. What type? One that gives all their worries and all their fears to Him? Or one that tells Him that you can work it out, you can do this by yourself? You hint that this where God wants you to be - If that is so - then why doubt? You make the comment about letting go letting God, maybe this is a hint from Him to actually follow that rule. Look through your husbands eyes - see what he sees. God loves you without faults. It's pretty incredible to have a husband that also loves you that much. You haven't had the best of times growing up reading your story so why not today "choose" to give it your all? Not worry so much, not think to much. "Let" your husband love you that much!!!! I can't think of something better or a gift that is more precious. It seems as though you are stuck on - Am I worth it? How could I be that happy? How could I be head over heals in love with him? - Do you really give it an honest chance? Remember it's not a report card and this won't just show up on your doorstep. It happens over time, it happens when you open yourself up, it happens with hard work, it happens with patience. Don't always look for it - could it be that is has always been there? Just tucked away? When the roller coaster goes down - don't give up - work harder! Give these concepts a chance! Give your husband a chance! Give your kids a chance! Give yourself a chance!Pray for help, with understanding, with courage to face this road, for hope, for openness and honesty. Close your eyes afterward - take a deep breath and see if you can't see yourself years from now with the most incredible marriage around.Hope this helps. Sorry it's so long. Haven't been around in a while (different name). God Bless!!!!!!

Hi everyone,I am going to respond to the posts you've all so thoughtfully put together. I'll do it a bit later.Just wanted to let you know that I Created a pro's and con's list for staying here or going to the barren land, I mean St. Louis. I thought about it and the most logical choice is to go, so I'm going. I will be leaving in a month. I called H and let him know. Wish me luck. I'm not looking forward to this, but if I can keep my emotions in check and focus on the list, I'll be fine, I"m sure.Quickly....P, there is no room for POJA on this one. He will not come back as he truly believes that is where God wants him to be. He told me he would sacrifice anything short of the girls to be there, because it's what he is supposed to do. I got it. He would even sacrifice me. He told me he has put me before his relationship with God throughout our marriage and he will never do it again. That's wonderful, but there was no question that being here is not an option.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by MD:
...there is no room for POJA on this one. He will not come back as he truly believes that is where God wants him to be. He told me he would sacrifice anything short of the girls to be there, because it's what he is supposed to do. I got it. He would even sacrifice me. He told me he has put me before his relationship with God throughout our marriage and he will never do it again. That's wonderful, but there was no question that being here is not an option.<hr></blockquote>Hmmm, you know, it really upsets me when people refuse to negotiate because it's "not what God wants him to do." Wonder what God feels about divorce. Wonder what God feels about abandonment of wife. Wonder what God feels about keeping the family together. (Ok, I don't really want someone to come back quoting scripture to me.) Oh, and if his girls decided they wanted to live with you, then God would deem it ok for him to return to the West Coast too?Doc, go to him as you have planned. But you two have some things to work out quickly. The two of you need to negotiate decisions. God wants you both to be happy - not one at the expense of the other. It scares me with this position he has taken. I know we should put our God above all things. But I also think there is something of a compromise available. Maybe seminary there, but then a commitment to practice on the West Coast afterwards?P

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by persistant:
Hmmm, you know, it really upsets me when people refuse to negotiate because it's "not what God wants him to do." Doc, go to him as you have planned. But you two have some things to work out quickly. The two of you need to negotiate decisions. God wants you both to be happy - not one at the expense of the other. It scares me with this position he has taken. I know we should put our God above all things. But I also think there is something of a compromise available. Maybe seminary there, but then a commitment to practice on the West Coast afterwards?P<hr></blockquote>It scares me too that he is saying that. I want to believe that it's how he truly feels, but I'm not sure. There are ways he coud do what he needs to here. He just doesn't want to, when it boils down to it.We do have some quick decisions to make, I agree. I'm not sure I want to be married to him, but know that I am going to have MAJOR pressure when I go there. I say I don't know that I WANT to, but I know it's the right thing. I am just such a different person than he knows me to be. I'm happy for the first time in years. While I think I can be happy with him, I'm not sure he'll let me be. If I don't fit his mold, there are big problems. I realize we all compromise to an extent in relationships, but I don't know that I can be exactly what he wants me to be and if I can't, he may not want to be with me.I could go on and on, but I won't. I feel like I am just rambling and don't want to waste your eyes.Doc[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]

Dear MD:You are getting support from the best this board has to offer. I am sorry for your pain. As is usually the case I agree with JL. That is why it is such a pain posting after him, he usually gets it right LOL.Two things scream at me from your posts. The first and major one is you don't love yourself. You keep wondering why your H wants to be married to you. Do you believe anyone would want to be married to you? Are you keeping love out of your heart for your H as a way to create a self fulfilling prophesy (i.e. no one can love me I am not worthy). I can tell from your posts you are caring, intelligent and strong, pretty admirable qualities in my book.I think the point of looking at yourself through H's eyes will be helpful here. If he can love you and God can love you, who are you to deny that love to yourself.The second item is the lack of honesty with your H. I struggle with this with my W. I do not always tell her the bad things I am feeling.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>"I am just such a different person than he knows me to be. I'm happy for the first time in years. While I think I can be happy with him, I'm not sure he'll let me be. If I don't fit his mold, there are big problems. I realize we all compromise to an extent in relationships, but I don't know that I can be exactly what he wants me to be and if I can't, he may not want to be with me."<hr></blockquote>You are speaking for your H without letting him know the truth of yourself. He deserves this as well as you will feel better and stronger in the relationship by finally telling him the truth about you. I believe it is difficult to love someone you have to hide the real you from. Give your H the truly wonderful gift of knowing the truth of MD.I hope I made some sense.I will pray for you and your family.Jack[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ][ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by willmakeitwork:
Two things scream at me from your posts. The first and major one is you don't love yourself. You keep wondering why your H wants to be married to you. Do you believe anyone would want to be married to you? Are you keeping love out of your heart for your H as a way to create a self fulfilling prophesy (i.e. no one can love me I am not worthy). I can tell from your posts you are caring, intelligent and strong, pretty admirable qualities in my book.<hr></blockquote>
Thank you, Jack.My therapist said pretty much the same thing. If I don't love myself, how I can I allow someone else to love me. I have a tendency to say things like "I'm warped, I'm srewed up, etc." It's how I feel. I don't know how to feel any differently. And maybe all of this is a way to fulfill a self imposed prophecy. I will have to think about that one.
Honesty is a struggle for me. I guess moreso openess. I am so afraid of hurting people and scared of their reaction that I don't always say what I think or feel if I think it will upset them. Hmmm, more stuff to consider.Thank you again, for your words of wisdom.