Hi Doc,<p>Well, I know what people feel like when they log onto our thread, read a bunch of stuff, then don't know where to start with a reply!<p>I read a bunch of wonderful things. I have a lot of hope that a MB-type program could really help. Maybe I'm struggling with where to start. Let's see, it's obvious you care for your husband, but certainly don't have those romantic feelings of love that you desire. That's fair. For most of us here, we had those romantic feelings at one time, but now they've waned to just caring. So we're currently in the same boat as you. But we're also working to get those romantic feelings back. And maybe it doesn't sound so fairy tale, but I think if I met someone that truly met my needs, I could easily fall in love with them. Romantic love. It's probably also the reason that we take such precautionary measures to guard our Love Banks when our own marriages are faltering, or in transition or recovery.<p>You said something about you being honest with your husband, and worried about whether it might be too honest. I'm not sure there is such a thing as being too honest. I think you need to take care in delivering the message, but it always needs to be truthful. With the truth, that so-so valuable insight, we have the ability to change things to improve or relationship/marriage. Both through knowing it requires a change (i.e., one or both of you not happy), and persistently honest feedback while change is underway. When all cylinders are running, when both of you are working to meet the needs of the spouse, I think romantic love is only a stones-throw away. The reason many of us struggle now is that only one is truly committed, and maybe the other lacks the belief or desire.<p>Don't apologize for FS being a top EN. We could debate whether SF, or even Attractive Spouse SHOULD BE valid needs just as easily. But the reality is that they ARE EN's for some people, and unless they are met, that person will not be happy. Simple enough.<p>So, you said something about an EA with a coworker. Someone that you still have contact with now. Do you still have feelings for him? Realize that my wife spent a very long time trying to just be friends with her OM, but that on several occasions it became something more anyway. That when she confessed, she realized she could not always maintain a casual relationship. I suspect if you truly had an EA, then your case would be no different. You do not want your feelings for this OM to hamper your recovery, your falling in love with your husband. That is why you need to have no contact with him.<p>Doc, have you read Surviving an Affair. If not, I would suggest that you order it immediately. The bookstore on this website can get it to you in around five days, at a discounted price. It's going to be the best dollars you can spend (and cheapest).<p>If the two of you are committed to developing a loving relationship, then I think you could do wonderful things with the MB program. I don't even care whether you feel like you've never loved him before. It's likely that he has missed the mark on Love Bank deposits anyway, but with some renewed, targeted effort, I think he could make Love Bank deposits and provide you with those romantic feelings of love that you desire.<p>Also, you need to introduce negotiation into your lives. POJA. There has to be an alternative to a sacrifice move for you to St Louis. This shouldn't be one with the decision-making power, and the other expected to just go along.<p>Ok, that's my two second mind dump at the end of lunch break. Let me know your thoughts. And order the book now, if you haven't read already.

Hi JL,<p>You have said a lot of things that need considering. I think you should truely get counseling for your issues caused by the abuse.<p>I agree and have been in counceling. Unfortunately, I am unable to continue. I figured out my budget and I am so in the defecit that I can't do it. I will go again when I move. Therapy scares me. I'm really bad at it, honestly, but a necessary evil, I know.<p>Next, I think you need to consider a few things about moving. You say you feel resentment because your H won't come back to CA?? but rather wants to stay where he is. So please permit me some philosophy.<p>THe house you are leaving can be replaced. In your life you may well end up back in the same area. You don't know. Life is interesting that way. So don't let the move build resentment, it is the natural consequence of many events including you finally starting to truely address your issues.<p>You are beginning to sound like my H. He has said house, job, friends, all those things can be replaced. And he also says that he doesn't want to be there for the rest of his life. No guarantee that we will be back here, though. That scares me.<p>So lets get back to the love thing. What is your vision of love? How is it shown? What does it feel like? How do you respond when your H shows you, his love for you? When you look in the mirror what do you see?<p>I don't have a clue what my vision of love is. I love my daughters and my best friend. I assume love for my H should be different. I want to be with my daughters. I want to spend time with them. That how it is shown. We do things together and enjoy each others company. How do I respond to H's love? I feel odd. It doesn't make sense to me. When I look in the mirror, I see.....I don't understand why he loves me. I'm a messed up person. I have so many issues that I haven't dealt with. I am honestly afraid to. I am afraid that the "real" person is worse than this person. I don't particularly love me, but I am used to me.<p>I ask that last question because I know your H seems someone very different from the person you feel you are. You know what, he is probably closer to correct.<p>ya think? I'm not so sure.<p>You say your H is very open and talks about what he feels. Yet, you hurt him very deeply. Has he quit opening up to you? Probably not completely.<p>He is still very open. His inner monologue has never functioned properly. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] What he thinks, he says. Scares me sometimes.<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]</p>

P-<p>I will respond more thoroughly later. I'm overwhelmed right now. Had a tough day.<p>Do want to respond to one thing. Yes, I am still in contact with man from EA. It is difficult, but we do a pretty good job staying totally professional. As fas as feelings? They linger a bit, but I have been working over time to guard myself. You are right that having no contact will allow more room to work on my relationship with H. I have been in a position where I couldn't leave. My H left with no forewarning, and I had to keep this job. I'm now, a month later, in a position where I have some choices. I will either get another job immediately, or move to St. Louis within a month. Either way, contact will be broken.<p>more later.<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]</p>

Hi, Doc! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I found something that I mailed to myself back in September, cuz it said some things about love that I thought was worth keeping. This was copied by a poster (here on MB) back in July of last year. I've copied it below. Please tell me what you think. Okay? (BTW, I hope that TS and GDP don't mind me re-posting this.)<p>quote:
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Originally posted by TruthSeeker:
And love of a child is not the same as love for a spouse. You wouldn't (and shouldn't) have feelings of passion toward your child. But you would (and should) have feelings of passion toward your spouse. It's an entirely different relationship and I really wish people would stop comparing the two. It's apples and oranges.
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----<p>The marital relationship is different from the parent-child relationship, but love is still love. It is unfortunate that the word "love" is used in so many different ways, but until the language changes, there will always be confusion.<p>Here is your original post to which I responded:<p>
quote:
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But those feelings DID come to me with no effort on my part with the OM. And no effort on his part either if I am to believe him when he said he wasn't interested. You hear about unrequited love all the time. The object of desire didn't set out to make the other fall in love with them. Furthermore, I don't beleive that a preson CAN make someone fall in love with them and still remain true to who you are. Either someone loves you for who you are or they don't. If you change into something else, it's not you they love, it's who you're pretending to be.
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----<p>It appeared to me that you started off talking about passion and infatuation, and you ended up talking about love. You will note that it was
only in response to your final two sentences that I said "Love is a choice." You disagreed, saying "love is a feeling."<p>I can't remember how many crushes I have had on girls who I didn't even like, let alone love. I developed an infatuation in spite of who they were. That didn't stop me from enjoying the warm gooey feelings, but it sure did stop me from pursuing relationships with them.<p>I guess what I'm trying to say is that infatuation makes a lousy basis on which to build a marriage. I think when you choose to marry, you choose to love, or else you are doing your spouse a great disservice. I don't know why some people have a hard time developing romantic feelings for someone they have chosen to love. I suspect there are many different factors involved. But one thing I'm pretty sure of is that if you say "I will never have those kind of feelings for my spouse", you have a very good chance of fulfilling your own prophecy. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>One's feelings affect one's attitudes, which affect one's actions. And one's actions affect one's attitudes, which affect one's feelings. I
suspect that in an environment where your husband was meeting your emotional needs, there is some course of action you could take, and some
attitude that you could cultivate, that would fire up your passion for him. <p>
[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited July 04, 2001).]<p>What do you think about this? Does it make any sense to you, Doc? Please let me know your thoughts. Okay? Thanks! <p>God Bless! <p>HT

Hello Doc,<p>Well, it seems after reading your thoughts and how you are handling your feelings is that it is time for a decision. <p>You say you love your children. Give them the best gift they can have - a loving relationship that you have with your husband. Show them what love can be. Show them that even though marriage has ups and downs that you didn't quit and that you worked through it. In today's society, it seems that quitting is the norm and working through problems is something of the past. Show them!<p>You say your a Christian. What type? One that gives all their worries and all their fears to Him? Or one that tells Him that you can work it out, you can do this by yourself? You hint that this where God wants you to be - If that is so - then why doubt? You make the comment about letting go letting God, maybe this is a hint from Him to actually follow that rule. <p>Look through your husbands eyes - see what he sees. God loves you without faults. It's pretty incredible to have a husband that also loves you that much. You haven't had the best of times growing up reading your story so why not today "choose" to give it your all? Not worry so much, not think to much. "Let" your husband love you that much!!!! I can't think of something better or a gift that is more precious. <p>It seems as though you are stuck on - Am I worth it? How could I be that happy? How could I be head over heals in love with him? - Do you really give it an honest chance? Remember it's not a report card and this won't just show up on your doorstep. It happens over time, it happens when you open yourself up, it happens with hard work, it happens with patience. Don't always look for it - could it be that is has always been there? Just tucked away? When the roller coaster goes down - don't give up - work harder! <p>Give these concepts a chance! Give your husband a chance! Give your kids a chance! Give yourself a chance!<p>Pray for help, with understanding, with courage to face this road, for hope, for openness and honesty. Close your eyes afterward - take a deep breath and see if you can't see yourself years from now with the most incredible marriage around.<p>Hope this helps. Sorry it's so long. Haven't been around in a while (different name). God Bless!!!!!!

Hi everyone,<p>I am going to respond to the posts you've all so thoughtfully put together. I'll do it a bit later.<p>Just wanted to let you know that I Created a pro's and con's list for staying here or going to the barren land, I mean St. Louis. I thought about it and the most logical choice is to go, so I'm going. <p>I will be leaving in a month. I called H and let him know. <p>Wish me luck. I'm not looking forward to this, but if I can keep my emotions in check and focus on the list, I'll be fine, I"m sure.<p>Quickly....P, there is no room for POJA on this one. He will not come back as he truly believes that is where God wants him to be. He told me he would sacrifice anything short of the girls to be there, because it's what he is supposed to do. I got it. He would even sacrifice me. He told me he has put me before his relationship with God throughout our marriage and he will never do it again. That's wonderful, but there was no question that being here is not an option.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MD:
<strong>...there is no room for POJA on this one. He will not come back as he truly believes that is where God wants him to be. He told me he would sacrifice anything short of the girls to be there, because it's what he is supposed to do. I got it. He would even sacrifice me. He told me he has put me before his relationship with God throughout our marriage and he will never do it again. That's wonderful, but there was no question that being here is not an option.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hmmm, you know, it really upsets me when people refuse to negotiate because it's "not what God wants him to do." Wonder what God feels about divorce. Wonder what God feels about abandonment of wife. Wonder what God feels about keeping the family together. (Ok, I don't really want someone to come back quoting scripture to me.) Oh, and if his girls decided they wanted to live with you, then God would deem it ok for him to return to the West Coast too?<p>Doc, go to him as you have planned. But you two have some things to work out quickly. The two of you need to negotiate decisions. God wants you both to be happy - not one at the expense of the other. It scares me with this position he has taken. I know we should put our God above all things. But I also think there is something of a compromise available. Maybe seminary there, but then a commitment to practice on the West Coast afterwards?<p>P

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by persistant:
<strong><p>Hmmm, you know, it really upsets me when people refuse to negotiate because it's "not what God wants him to do."<p> <p>Doc, go to him as you have planned. But you two have some things to work out quickly. The two of you need to negotiate decisions. God wants you both to be happy - not one at the expense of the other. It scares me with this position he has taken. I know we should put our God above all things. But I also think there is something of a compromise available. Maybe seminary there, but then a commitment to practice on the West Coast afterwards?<p>P</strong><hr></blockquote><p>It scares me too that he is saying that. I want to believe that it's how he truly feels, but I'm not sure. There are ways he coud do what he needs to here. He just doesn't want to, when it boils down to it.<p>We do have some quick decisions to make, I agree. I'm not sure I want to be married to him, but know that I am going to have MAJOR pressure when I go there. I say I don't know that I WANT to, but I know it's the right thing. <p>I am just such a different person than he knows me to be. I'm happy for the first time in years. While I think I can be happy with him, I'm not sure he'll let me be. If I don't fit his mold, there are big problems. I realize we all compromise to an extent in relationships, but I don't know that I can be exactly what he wants me to be and if I can't, he may not want to be with me.<p>I could go on and on, but I won't. I feel like I am just rambling and don't want to waste your eyes.<p>Doc<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]</p>

Dear MD:<p>You are getting support from the best this board has to offer. I am sorry for your pain. As is usually the case I agree with JL. That is why it is such a pain posting after him, he usually gets it right LOL.<p>Two things scream at me from your posts. The first and major one is you don't love yourself. You keep wondering why your H wants to be married to you. Do you believe anyone would want to be married to you? Are you keeping love out of your heart for your H as a way to create a self fulfilling prophesy (i.e. no one can love me I am not worthy). I can tell from your posts you are caring, intelligent and strong, pretty admirable qualities in my book.<p>I think the point of looking at yourself through H's eyes will be helpful here. If he can love you and God can love you, who are you to deny that love to yourself.<p>The second item is the lack of honesty with your H. I struggle with this with my W. I do not always tell her the bad things I am feeling.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"I am just such a different person than he knows me to be. I'm happy for the first time in years. While I think I can be happy with him, I'm not sure he'll let me be. If I don't fit his mold, there are big problems. I realize we all compromise to an extent in relationships, but I don't know that I can be exactly what he wants me to be and if I can't, he may not want to be with me."<hr></blockquote><p>You are speaking for your H without letting him know the truth of yourself. He deserves this as well as you will feel better and stronger in the relationship by finally telling him the truth about you. I believe it is difficult to love someone you have to hide the real you from. Give your H the truly wonderful gift of knowing the truth of MD.<p>I hope I made some sense.<p>I will pray for you and your family.<p>Jack<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ]<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by willmakeitwork:
<strong><p>Two things scream at me from your posts. The first and major one is you don't love yourself. You keep wondering why your H wants to be married to you. Do you believe anyone would want to be married to you? Are you keeping love out of your heart for your H as a way to create a self fulfilling prophesy (i.e. no one can love me I am not worthy). I can tell from your posts you are caring, intelligent and strong, pretty admirable qualities in my book.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Thank you, Jack.<p>My therapist said pretty much the same thing. If I don't love myself, how I can I allow someone else to love me. I have a tendency to say things like "I'm warped, I'm srewed up, etc." It's how I feel. I don't know how to feel any differently. And maybe all of this is a way to fulfill a self imposed prophecy. I will have to think about that one.<p>
Honesty is a struggle for me. I guess moreso openess. I am so afraid of hurting people and scared of their reaction that I don't always say what I think or feel if I think it will upset them. Hmmm, more stuff to consider.<p>Thank you again, for your words of wisdom.