curiousity got the best of me--visited gloryb

Marriage Builders

i read a few posts concerning gloryb and TOW message board--couldn't help myself--had to go see it for myself. looks like OPs are in just as thick a fog as WSs. i held back the urge to put my 2 cents in (was hard as i am pretty opinionated--ok i have a big mouth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) just wanted to say that i can't believe the ignorant things that some of these OW actually believe. actually did consider posting--not to just blast people (although maybe that would be enjoyable in a twisted kinda way) but the OWs all seem curious as to what it's like for the MM's W and some of the ones i saw thought we (BW's) are all these pathetic people that can't seem to do anything for ourselves and "have" to have a man. ummm....we are not the ones settling for the crumbs and being someone's "part-timer". i think that all us BS's deserve a pat on the back for all the effort we put into sticking to our promises (marriage vows) even when it's neither deserved nor appreciated by the WS.
sorry for rambling--guess i just needed to vent.

OMG, I too went there today after reading old posts on OW's, I only looked up ols stuff after reading a post comparing a recent poster to an old one, this recent poster told lies and pretended to be BS when in fact she was OW.....You probably know what I am talking about.
Anyway my curiosity got the better of me as it does all BS'S and I just found the whole site disgusting! How the frig you can brag about your exploites when you are running second fiddle and collecting the crumbs is way beyond me. My Hubby and I are way in front at the moment D.Day was 15th Feb and his OW is left in the dust of our relationship, I have actually seen him Vomit when I have mentioned her name, I do not joke, he has......That is the lasting affect she has on him.....I don't believe I ever made him vomit at the mention of MY name and memories of me or us!
We are doing very well and his OW was a very big woman (I am thin, but not anorexic, just cute) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
And my hubby can not deal with visual re visits of this pig that thought she had him hook line and sinker. My hubby was in a desperate situation(Pls read my posts)....IT was there and he needed something......he couldn't even have intercourse because she was suh a turn off!

LOL--i went there after reading the same posts! wish my h was that way over his OW--they are "friends" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> i am somwehat inclined to believe that nothing sexual is going on between them (not sure tho) and i know the "thrill" is gone--he found out she is an atheist and doesn't see or talk to her as much. now if only he would stop it altogether...
rambling again, as usual. going to check out your other posts, i remember seeing some on the above mentioned threads.
Have a good day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I had been to that site a while back and was amazazed & outraged. It has been interesting to watch a friend of mine who is the OW to a MM. She has given me great insite. The MM wanted to do counseling cuz he was having a hard time about the kids. She got sooo upset that she said allkinds of things ..... like not being to live without him ..... She questioned why he should even go to counseling & not to stay together just for the kids. She also said that there was no reason to try to get back with his wife )BS) cuz she was not affectionate to him now (DUH) and didn't talk to him very much )maybe plan b).
She even called the wife & told her all that was going on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I have learned so much from her and what not to do. She thinks she has found the love of her life, left her daughter with an addicted BH and now wants to make a new life with this MM who is fence sitting and she can't understand why. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

D.

I went there too!!!!! Next time, call me so we can all ride together!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I read a thread that obviously had a BS posting to it and they were MAD!!! They called their website cops on her and deleted her posts. It was for OW ONLY!!!!!

They do not appreciate our POV. I will never go back there again. I'm glad, that for the most part, we can ALL coexist peacefully on this site.

It was like opening Pandora's box.....
DB

[ December 05, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: dazedblonde ]

wgtt--wow it must be hard to have a friend doing that after what you've been through. maybe she'll figure it out one day...

db--LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> --yea i noticed that most of em aren't too thrilled about hearing from the wives. it's pathetic, but amusing in a sick way to just see all the ignorance they spew.

I don't think that I could go there and read all of the poison from someone who has no integrity or care for the human heart. Selfish, selfish, selfish!

I found myself feeling sorry for the OW in my H life because I knew that he was "leading them on" and playing out a fantasy. He had no intentions of making any of it real. It was a sick game and I was feeling bad that they were getting hurt. BUT...after they knew about ME and continued to talk to him....they were the sick ones as well. What were they thinking? That he would leave the life he has always wanted with me...NOT!

BS are Angels sent from God and are the only person that can serve their WS this way! We all deserve many kudos for we are next to saints. Now that's not to say that we don't have our moments and "freak out" or handle this torture and torment in a less than desirable way....but let's face it.....who is the ROCK in the relationship?

HUGS and BLESSINGS to all of us! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Why would anyone lie about being a BS? If they're the WS, that doesn't even make any sense?? I've never seen this OW site, but I can't imagine as a FWS wanting to go there. Talk about enabling the continuation of the fog!!

That is exactly right, Storm. Enabling the continuation of the fog. And they don't give each other advice about NOT seeing the MM or no contact with the MM if they want to end affair. It's more, well, if you want to have the affair we can't stop you and good luck!!!

Lostbut hopeful,

My friend & I where both going thru M problems (both spouses drink too much) at the same time so we kind of bonded together. She met a guy online & met him in person after a few months. That was really painful for me to hear about cuz deepdown I knew my H was really a WH, just hadn't had dday yet. My friend kept asking me for help spiritually. I would cringe everytime I had to talk to her.

Eventually, I realized it was a blessing. I heard things from her side and it confirmed so much of what I learned from MB and on these boards. When I met the MM, I genuinly liked him as a person (not what he was doing) My firend is soooooooooo much in the fog. Even though I have been thru the most painful experience of my life, have been lonley at times, I would not trade positions with her for anything! she thinks she has the love of her life. In all fairness, he may be, but NOT in these circumstances. He is a Godly man and really struggling with all of this.

My friend won't listen (never has) to anything said where she should leave this man alone, etc. Total fog. MM has even called me in dispair & I told him about this website. They (OW & MM) are still together. MM's wife had filed for dv a long time ago, but nothing seems to be moving the dv along, which infuriates my friend.

D.

Okay, I thought long and hard about responding to this thread...one of the first I read after logging into this site. I am a former OW, but let me say off the bat that I am not proud of it, I think my choice was wrong, and thankfully, it ended without anyone else getting hurt. Before it happened, I would have thought I was the LEAST likely person in the world to find myself in that situation. But I did, and if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone. We live in a fallen world, and I am...fallen.

I am also a gloryb graduate. That board and the OW there are the reason I was able to end my affair. If you have only scanned a few of the more volatile posts there, you can not possibly understand what happens there. So, for those who really want to know, I will tell you.

GloryB IS a site designed for OW. All others are guests because there is nowhere else an OW can go where others actually understand what she is experiencing. Overwhelmingly, the women there are in pain because of the emr and need a place to express that. Some of them are quite happy and proud of their exploits, but they are the minority, not the majority. Overwhelmingly, when someone posts that they are considering entering an emr, they are advised to NOT do it. Loudly and clearly.

But most of the women there are also in their own place of denial. It takes a long time to start seeing the situation clearly when you are emotionally torn. I'm sure those of you who have husbands who have strayed can see this first hand. It is a horribly painful experience for everyone involved. But it is not easy to end, though from your side of it, perhaps it should be.

Those of us who have ended ours can see that we have to talk to people on the level where they are at emotionally. And that means mostly listening and asking gentle questions that will allow them to see for themselves the truth of their own reality. So when a betrayed spouse comes to the board and starts preaching to them about how wrong and evil it is, that is exactly the thing that will spur a defensive reaction like you saw. OW KNOW that what they are doing is wrong. They just don't know how to stop the pain. But when a betrayed wife comes and talks of her own pain without needing to spew hatred and blame...that is the kind of thing that helps the other woman see the reality of her situation and is helpful to her process of leaving the emr. There are some strong friendships there between OWs and BWs...and while there are some lively discussions where it is obvious there is a difference of opinion, there is still mutual respect and an attempt to understand each other. Where it breaks down is when someone comes along who tries to show the OW the error of her ways without taking the time to hear her pain. And this is no different than any other kind of emotional situation we may ever encounter in life. Love the sinner, hate the sin. But the OW overwhelmingly feels personally attacked for her sin. GloryB gives her a place where she is among others who share her sin who can SUPPORT her. SUPPORT does NOT mean encourage the sin. It does mean UNDERSTAND. You will see encouragement for continued emr activity among those who are at the same level of experience in the emr...perhaps not yet feeling the pain that comes with time. I have been at gloryb for over two years, mostly lurking. But those who were happily expounding about the joys of their emr two years ago are today the women who are gently leading other to the place they need to reach to be able to end their emrs. That is what happens with support.

And that is why the site is there. That is why wives are asked to leave or are banned if they are unable to converse in a respectful and civil manner. That said, there are probably as many betrayed wives who post as regulars on that board as there are OWs. And they have learned that together, they can teach eachother a lot and help eachother through a very painful situation. In fact, some of the wives recently posted that they have found gloryB far more helpful to their dealing with the emr and their spouses than sites such as this. (I do not mean this as a flame...I am hear to learn healthy relationship skills and I think the concepts here are on target.)

I have often posted at gloryb that I think the emr is an addiction, that it is "foggy." Those are not popular ideas there, but primarily because in their pain, OW do not want to hear that. But eventually it does get through if it is truth that is spoken in love. I do believe that is a concept that is promoted here at MB. That is also a concept that is promoted and appreciated at gloryb. We are not so different afterall.

chandlergirl, thank you for you honesty and I for one appreciate that you posted. I am a BS, but I do not hold any resentment to anyone, even in my own situation. I also know that sometimes the OW/OM did not know that the WS was even married or involved, as I have met many that play that game. Then they get attached and before you know it POOF they find out, can they stop it? Yes, but that is easier said then done, so I feel that sites like this and the gloryb (I did not know about it, have not been there) fills the purposes for all involved in these things. I am sure that given any other circumstances then the ones we are living right now, NOONE would know who was who as far as being OW/OM or WS and so therefore why should we all deny learning from each other thru all this? You can all tell me to shut-up, but I feel that we are here to learn from each other, support each other and not condemn one another. We are all angry, hurt, on one level or another, but I believe that my WS made the choice to do something he said HE WOULD NEVER DO, I don't think the MOW set out to search and destroy me. I also want to say this, my WS also chose not to work on our relationship as he saw it as something that could be put off until he felt "life issues of the everyday lightened up" (as if that happens in the real world) He also would always talk about tomorrow the future and I would have to "whoaaaa" him back with "YOU know WS, if you don't live in today, there is no tomorrow!! So you see choices are choices. He thinks what he is doing now, is the "right choice" for him, it sure was the easy one since it burdened him to know that one of the hardest things to do on this planet is to keep a healthy relationship going, it does not come easy!! It takes courage, strength, compassion, etc. And I will also say this, I'd rather take the hard road then a few trips down a short path in the "fogzone"!!

P.S. Just read the thread "How do I get over affair partner?" which makes it clear why a board like gloryb is so needed. Here's a woman who desperately wants to get over her affair and comes here for help. She is not heard, she is harshly judged. So she ultimately says thanks but no thanks....and says she's leaving the board. There is something terribly wrong with this picture....

chandler, YOU are wrong, she came back and she has gotten repect and advice, she changed her name, so you are misinformed and in being so you judged the situation by saying "there is something terribly wrong with this picture". I'm not jumping on you, just stating the facts. Keep posting it will be appreciated.

cg:

What's up with you OW things boring over at gloryb? Another one of you is posting over at Just Found Out pretended to be a BS and then omitted to being the OW. Pretty sick.

IF you relationship experts over at gloryb want to help out the fogheaded feel free. And thanks for the wonderful service you all provide over there NOT!

Alright-The voice an another FOW so be warned.

I too consider myself a GB grad. I was TOW for nearly 10 years and am now happily coupled in a monogomous relationship.

I think that there is as much need for the GloryB's of the world as there is for MB sites. I was in the process of ending my emr when I found gb. What a life saver it was. I just knew that MM was my soulmate and that we were in a special unique union. I read GB and was shocked to discover that NOTHING he said or did was the least bit original. Boy was I pissed.

I was never the kind of girl to sit around and wait for him to leave his wife. I actually felt sorry for her. And when I discovered that his plan was to leave her to marry me, I left.

Personally I urge compassion all around. Any one of us could read the others board and think "they're all crazy." There have been times when I came here all I saw was a bunch of whining BS' crying about their WS's 10 emr. Patting themselves on the back for being long suffering and figureing out how to do the best plan A.

There have been times when I went to glory b and all I saw was hamsters on a wheel. Running and chasing and never getting anywhere.

At the end of the day we're all just a bunch of people. Right, wrong, perfect, flawed, happy, sad, confused, in love, enraged, in hurt, insane. Human.

wow--what a debate!
well i went back to gb and did some more reading. the first few posts i read were all about flaming BSs, but i kept on and found out that the majority was not like that. i did see where a lot of BSs went there and looked like it was for no other purpose than to flame OWs. i would just like to clarify that i don't think making a bad decision makes someone a bad person (if i thought that then i would have run like he!! as soon as i knew H was having an affair!)
anyway my point (and i do have one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) is that you can't judge many by the actions of one, and you can't judge everyone on a message board by reading just a few posts.

[ December 05, 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: lostbuthopeful ]

Just a thought,

I feel that both site serve their purpose. The OW check out this site for various reasons sometimes its for help and sometimes its to see how much pain the BS's are in. As I believe Boiling Over was trying to confirm. Its obvious that she was in pain for not being choice of the WH or the W not throwing the H out and leaving her free to have him. She wanted confirmation on how much pain her phone call caused. She didn't like the idea that the W seemed to be putting it all behind her. She didn't get what she wanted through her phone call and is in deep denial. BS go to gloryb sometimes for the same reasons. The OW in my case wanted a chance at a life w my H and didn't get it Sometimes I like to think of her as the loser and hope that she is in just as much pain as she has caused. In truth-at first I only stayed w my WH because if she thought I was going to just step aside and let her take my husband and my childerens father she had better think again. But as painful as staying was I'm glad I made that choice.

I obviously can't speak for others, but for me finding MB has been a tremendous gift. I was in pain over have just ended a long EMR when I found this place.

I honestly believed that even after d-day the emr had had no effect on the marital relationship. I look back now and think "how could it NOT have had an effect." But truely, his wife finding out didn't change his behavior one iota. So I assumed that it didn't matter to her. He always told me when things were crazy at home. He seemed almost relieved. She knew, it was never mentioned and we continued business as usual.

It was kind of like that "if a tree falls in the forrest thing."

On d-day #2 I spoke to his wife and she said and I quote "yes KS, I know who you are. What do you expect me to do about it. What happends between MM and you has nothing to do with me."

Based on this information I felt free to continue to see him as I pleased. It was BS's here that told me about the pain of the BS. I honestly had no other way to know.

Neesha...I did read the entire thread, I know she changed her name...unless there is something from her more recent than this morning, the last post she posted was a goodbye for the reasons I mention. That was my reference, but if I was wrong, I apologize. And I am sorry you are going through this horrendous experience. I pray it will make you strong. You are right...the harder way is the choice to invest in the work of a relationship.

Kalgirl, I know there are gloryb troublemakers lurking here and elsewhere...I am not one of them. There's a lot of truth in the world just waiting to be discovered. I'm sure there is a great deal of it here. But, there is truth at GloryB. And a lot of wisdom. I suppose I am seeking whatever wisdom may be found here, I can not speak for the others.

No one is more frustrated than me to see the OW at GloryB who are "stuck" in their emr, as Katie Scarlett writes, running around like hamsters on a wheel. I'm about growth, movement, forgiveness. Please realize that for the OW, she must learn to forgive herself. And that is sometimes far more difficult than it is for a wife to forgive a wandering husband. I do believe that many times we become involved in an emr because of a deficiency in ourselves. For the OW, when the emr ends, she feels totally alone with nowhere to go to work through the fallout. Usually, no one else in her life knows about it because it is "secret." That is a horribly lonely place to be, as some of you must know if you are finding support here for a damaged marriage. I would imagine most of you can also talk to friends and family about what's going on with you. Imagine you had to hide all that pain from everyone around you. How long would you be able to survive that way?

I do appreciate all of you who seem to be kindred spirits...seeking to understand yourselves and others. Thank you all for listening.

[ December 05, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Chandlergirl ]

I post on both sites and a few others. I find that I can receive understanding and learning from many sites. I try to be respectful on all sites and not tread on too many toes, while still upholding my own values and beliefs.

I find that on many sites when someone starts a thread about another site...no healing or understanding or empathy is given or received. No support, just a lot of generalizations as to what is going on in the other site.

Normally, I stay as far away from these "joined" threads as possible. They are usually a waste of my valuable time. jmho

Gloryb has in the last few days has had an influx of a very few women whose only purpose is to see if by causing other's pain, they can lessen their own. Making catty remarks and definitely getting down into the muddy waters. Whenever this happens, the women there get just as "dirty" in that muddy water and they too began to make hurtful and stupid remarks.

It's sad. And it's a waste of energy/time which could be better used in posting on a site for help in dealing with our pain, confusion, and saddness.

I would like to say, from being a long time poster over there, that the majority of women on TOW do NOT ever encourage a person to began an affair. They are usually the most vocal on why it isn't the best idea. They know, they live it and they do know the pain that an affair brings to the OP. They do support those OP who are already in an affair, are trying to end the affair, or have ended the affair and trying to move on in their lives.

Each site has benefits for who it was primarily set up for. This site is for making a marriage better, rather there was an infidelity or not. This site is geared towards saving marriages which have been affected by problems whatever they may be. It has so much valuable information on how to help us help ourselves. I'm sure that it's saved many a marriage and has helped many people to grow and learn.

Good luck on whatever healing path you are treading.

Chandlergirl,

Thank you for your post. My impression of Gloryb was not so good. I didn't read too many threads, but what I did was hard to take. I was looking at it from my perspective which at the time was pretty raw (my emotions). I read some that posted with a very calous attitude which I didn't understand.

I have a friend who is the OW and I have learned so much from her as I explained in my previous post. She has shared her pain and frustrations with me as well as her joys. I thank God that I am not in her position. I have seen her manipulations of the MM and putting down his BW. I have tried to explain to her that unless she lets him go and he comes back on his own, ready to leave BW behind that she has nothing in this R. She's not listening right now.

D.

Many of the posters over there seem to be mainly concerned with validating themselves- but maybe it's different in the sections of the forum that deal with ending the affair. Alot of posters seemed to even resent OW who were disillusioned with being OW or who warned of an unhappy ending to the A.

I think it's regrettable that the OW over there need to refer to BSs who post there as "trolls". Since they delete those posts, who knows what those BSs said. Perhaps these BSs were impolitic, no doubt they are deeply hurting. I think it is part of the mindset of some of these OW to denigrate and deny those feelings, and to label them the feelings of a troll. Since there is a moderator called TrollPatrol, it seems to be a part of the culture of the board.

I think it is great if there is a part of the board that was helpful to Katie Scarlett and Chandler Girl in getting out of their unsatisfying relationships with MM.

I just read Please help me's thread and in all but one post (tommaz's) I felt people were trying to offer here helpful suggestions. Yes, sometimes they were blunt in their assessments. One poster was a little harsher at first and then apologized because she had misinterpreted the situation. Note that Please help me is posting more from the point of a WS, than an OW.

Welcome to MB Chandlergirl. I am sorry for the reaction you got from Kalgrl. She is no doubt someone who is hurting from the effects of an affair. We have all said that sometimes it is hard when OW's post here because some people have very raw emotions. But there are quite a few OW who post here. I think when someone comes here, trying to get away from the affair situation, or a WS who wants to restore their marriage, they will get alot of sympathy and helpful suggestions. Of course, some people are not tactful, we have alot of personalities on this board.

When you are a BS, you are going along in your marriage, following your vows, doing the best you can. Then it is like you are suddenly attacked and your world crumbles. Someone you may or may not know, is involved with your husband, and most of the time will not step out of the triangle. And as long as that other person is there, a husband and a wife can not begin to address the problems in their marriage. I think most wives here can accept if their marriages were to fail, in the absence of another person. If your H said, I'm so unhappy, let's do MC, let's try our best to make each other happy... and after a year, things weren't better, I think that is something most wives can accept. And they could deal with their H's moving on and eventually forming another relationship.

The OW on the other hand, chooses to get involved with a MM, and chooses to continue the relationship. She may well experience pain- but she knows the path she chose can be painful. Many of the OWs on gloryb. speculate as to what the BW is thinking, and why the BW stays with the MM, or ignores the affair or whatever.

I know for me, finding out about the OW was not just about my own personal disappointment in my H's behavior. I had to think about my young children, who are very happy in their family. As we celebrate the holidays together as a family this is underscored. It's strange how so many of the OW over there either minimize the family commitment "he's only staying for the kids" OR "Kids do just fine in divorce".

I know for me, I stayed with my H despite his absences, heavy work schedule, investment disasters, caustic putdowns, lack of attention, capped with infidelity. Well, the infidelity forced my H to confront some of his selfish and immature behaviors and he has truly become a man I can respect. He is unique and irreplaceable- my partner, my lover and the father of my children.

I can not really understand the mindset of these OW. In my case, the OW left her H, attempting to get my H to leave me. She knew he was married and had 3 children. She met him in a work situation were she saw him as powerful and affluent. She liked what she saw, although it was an illusion, and figured she would ride off into the sunset with my H since she was discontent.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by espoir:


It's strange how so many of the OW over there either minimize the family commitment "he's only staying for the kids" OR "Kids do just fine in divorce".

<hr /></blockquote>I haven't looked at that site4 in a long time, but that was always one of the things that really bugged me too. There were NUMEROUS times that I saw an OW say "his children will be much happier when they see their father with someone who he really loves, instead of in an unhappy marriage." First of all they are making a lot of assumptions based on what the MM is telling them (almost guaranteed not to be the whole truth) and what they desperately want to believe. They are alos making a lot of assumptions about children that they, hopefully, have never even met. It's sometimes almost like the OW is some sort of glorious, heaven sent being whose purpose on earth is to save this poor, hapless man and his children from the awful wife beast. Of course I also remember a lot of them talking about how their fathers were adulterers and their mothers were awful women and they love their fathers OWs. So I guess it has a lot to do with projecting and apples not falling far from the tree. They apparently learned from their own life experience that the first marriage and family are nothing but a pile of crap to be disrespected and cast aside, and it's the adulterous relationship that brings true happiness.

Point of information:

On TOW the term "trolls" does not refer to BS's but rather to trouble makers or OW bashers.

Espoir,

Thank you for your comments. I think this will be my last response to this thread (but who knows...) because I truly did not come here as a former OW. I have not been OW for 2 years and do not identify myself as that. I am someone who made a poor choice at a desperate time in my life. I have learned from it and have moved on.

[QB]Many of the posters over there seem to be mainly concerned with validating themselves- but maybe it's different in the sections of the forum that deal with ending the affair.

Yes, this is true. I think most OW feel very insecure about themselves. I am a strong person, but the emr reduced me to an insecure weakling...a person I did not recognize and did not like. The first step to being able to leave an emr is to reclaim our true SELVES, and that means we need to first validate our experience. I'm sure that must feel like a pretty shart thorn to a betrayed spouse. Probably the major area of contention that is displayed on these boards.

[Alot of posters seemed to even resent OW who were disillusioned with being OW or who warned of an unhappy ending to the A.

Yes. Very true. I can not speak for all, but I believe that the reason the OW seeks out a support board such as GloryB is BECAUSE she is feeling stress and hurt from the emr. I looked for a place to learn how others were coping with that and found GloryB. I also did not want to hear the enlightened experience of former OW who warned of what was to come. The truth is difficult to hear. But...we DO hear it, it DOES sink in, but it has to be something we can absorb at our own pace.

I think it's regrettable that the OW over there need to refer to BSs who post there as "trolls".

May I just say that the only BSs referred to as "trolls" are the ones who are rude, crass, and spew vitriolic venom. Those who are polite and can conduct a reasonable conversation are actually quite welcome. I and others recognize that the spewing does come from deep hurt, and that the OW who react strongly are also responding out of a place of pain and denial.

I just read Please help me's thread and in all but one post (tommaz's) I felt people were trying to offer here helpful suggestions. Yes, sometimes they were blunt in their assessments. One poster was a little harsher at first and then apologized because she had misinterpreted the situation. [

I understand that people were genuinely trying to offer help, and I agree with the bluntness. All I am saying is that all the advice on that thread is stuff Please Help Me (and I) already have told ourselves. We know WHAT we need to do. What we NEED to be able to do it is someone to walk alongside and help us find our true SELF. Although the advice was essentially sound...there is a fundamental lack of understanding and empathy that is essential for healing. I understand that. I think that can only come from someone who has walked the same path...hence...there is a place like GloryB.

Welcome to MB Chandlergirl. I am sorry for the reaction you got from Kalgrl. She is no doubt someone who is hurting from the effects of an affair.

I understand this completely. I am not offended. I understand pain...my own and others. Again, lest I get a "reputation" here as being "that OW from GloryB..." that is not why I am here. But I understand the reaction. Thank you for your welcome.

The OW on the other hand, chooses to get involved with a MM, and chooses to continue the relationship. She may well experience pain- but she knows the path she chose can be painful. Many of the OWs on gloryb. speculate as to what the BW is thinking, and why the BW stays with the MM, or ignores the affair or whatever.

This is my biggest frustration with most of the OW at GloryB. There IS a blindness, a refusal to accept responsibility for choices, an attitude that OW has no responsibility for the breakdown in a marriage. This, of course, is ridiculous. Some people, however, will never see this.

It's strange how so many of the OW over there either minimize the family commitment "he's only staying for the kids" OR "Kids do just fine in divorce".

Again, I agree...I think OW must learn to tell themselves the truth. They prefer not to do that. However, it's difficult to tell yourself the truth when MM is not telling himself the truth either. MM tells OW he loves her for whatever reason...that he wants to be with her, that he is unhappy. OW clings to that...I think the biggest issue in an emr is just that...the participants do not necessarily "lie" to each other or their spouses. Fundamentally, they lie to themselves, and that is a very tricky problem to overcome...from all sides of the triangle. I am sorry for your trauma and hope that your marriage will grow stronger for the struggle you now go through. Truthfully, I feel far more affinity for you than for most of the OW at GloryB. I agree.

I am dating a man who, on our first date, confessed that he had stepped outside his marriage. I confessed that I had also been an OW. We understand the fragility of intimate relationships...and are committed to the truth and transparency and hard work it requires to build a strong bond that can endure.

The only thing I want to add to what I've posted here is that, in a strange way that I doubt I can ever explain, the emr brought a lot of healing to me for deep wounds I experienced LONG AGO that I don't think I would have experienced any other way. The Lord works in mysterious ways. I would have never expected that, but it is a testament to the power of God's grace. And I believe it can work the same way in a marriage. An emr is a horrible, destructive thing. There is no defense for my choice and I don't pretend that there is. But...in the end, God CAN transform our choices to accomplish his own purposes. To give us a hope and a future. I pray that is what happens in the marriages represented here.

[ December 06, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Chandlergirl ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
originally posted by fairydust

First of all they are making a lot of assumptions based on what the MM is telling them (almost guaranteed not to be the whole truth) and what they desperately want to believe. <hr /></blockquote>isn't that in a sense the same thing we are doing? usually the MM is telling his wife one thing and telling OW the complete opposite; the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but all the BS and OW have to go by are what MM says and does.

i'm not defending EMAs--i think that they are wrong and most of the time the people involved know that EMA is wrong. All i'm saying is that alot of the blame is put on OWs (who are equally at fault when they know the man is married) for a situation that the H created to begin with.

just to make my POV clear:
regardless of who "started" the A, the H made the choice to go outside the marriage. once OW knows he is married, she is equally at fault for continuing the affair. in the majority of EMAs, the H is lying to both women to get what he wants.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lostbuthopeful:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
originally posted by fairydust
<hr /></blockquote>isn't that in a sense the same thing we are doing? usually the MM is telling his wife one thing and telling OW the complete opposite; the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but all the BS and OW have to go by are what MM says and does.

i'm not defending EMAs--i think that they are wrong and most of the time the people involved know that EMA is wrong. All i'm saying is that alot of the blame is put on OWs (who are equally at fault when they know the man is married) for a situation that the H created to begin with.

just to make my POV clear:
regardless of who "started" the A, the H made the choice to go outside the marriage. once OW knows he is married, she is equally at fault for continuing the affair. in the majority of EMAs, the H is lying to both women to get what he wants.<hr /></blockquote>My quote was taken out of context. I was referring to the state of the marriage and the feelings of the children, not the whole thing in general. The BS LIVES in the marriage, the OW only hears what the MM tells her. The BS KNOWS his/her children, the OP has (hopefully) never even met them. She is a complete outsider to the true workings of the family, the BS is not.
Of course the WS is lying to both parties in 99% of cases (especially when the WS is a man). Lies are the entire foundation of affairs and what keeps them going.
As far as blame - The OW would have been pretty much a non entity to me if she hadn't decided to try to make my life a living hell after she got kicked to the curb by my WH. Direct quotes from her incessant harassing phone calls "If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me." "I'm glad I was able to cause you pain." "I used to pray every day that you'd have a miscarriage." "I don't care about you or your feelings, or your family or his family. He broke MY heart!" "you ruined my life by taking him back." Plenty more where that came from..... Sleeping with my husband is a tiny drop in the bucket of what I blamed her for.
I should add that my experience is FAR from unique. I've encountered many, many betrayed wives over the past 3 and a half years who had similar, post affair experiences with the OW as I had, or even worse. If you didn't, consider yourself very lucky.

[ December 06, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: fairydust ]

chandlergirl, I for one hope you stay here as long as you want to, you have been very caring and honest in your posts. Like I have said before in a post on this thread, we all can learn from each other, noone is above that and I know that in this day and time, I live for today, and in living for today I want it to be as emotionally and mentally rewarding as possible. I think we all want that in our lives, we all have made choices no matter who is who BS,WS,OW/OM, that has lead us to these crossroads in out lives, it is up to us to let these crossroads direct us to another awareness of ourselves that maybe we always had but forgot to utilize everyday, or maybe they were lying dormant and needed to surface to our consciousness in order to grow. I have always been the type of person who wants to grow as a being, and I feel that we all want that. I hope you stay, but if you do not, please know that I wish you the best. Take Care.

tried to post a little while ago butsomehow got logged out in the middle of it (again) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

fairydust--
just want to clarify what i meant by
"aren't we in a sense doing the same thing". all i meant was that all the OW knows about the marriage is what MM tells them; all we know about the affair is what MM tells us. And it's not right for OW to pretend she knows how the marriage really is, nor is it right for the us to pretend to know what is really going on with the affair. all we know is what he tells us and what we can infer from his behavior and actions.

i'm so sorry you had to go through all that with the OW. she sounds like a real psycho <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . i haven't read your story, but i hope that things have gotten much better for you

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lostbuthopeful:
tried to post a little while ago butsomehow got logged out in the middle of it (again) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

fairydust--
just want to clarify what i meant by
"aren't we in a sense doing the same thing". all i meant was that all the OW knows about the marriage is what MM tells them; all we know about the affair is what MM tells us. And it's not right for OW to pretend she knows how the marriage really is, nor is it right for the us to pretend to know what is really going on with the affair. all we know is what he tells us and what we can infer from his behavior and actions.
<hr /></blockquote>I see what you are saying. But my post wasn't at all about that larger aspect of the whole thing. It was just about what the wife KNOWS goes on in the marriage and about the children. I remember seeing on that board many occasions where the OW made all kinds of decisions and justifications in her head about what she considered would be best for the MM's children, who she didn't even know. The OW who were of that particular mindset usually decided that what would be best would be for the MM to leave his wife be with her, the kids to be delighted about Dad's new girlfriend and the wife to never say a peep or make their new lives the slightest bit difficult. All for the sake of the kids of course. Yeah, right.
As far as the affair as a whole, it depends on the situation. Post D-day I was stuck with an OW who has suddenly become the world's biggest chatterbox and couldn't wait to tell me every detail lol, so I definitely heard from both sides. Funny thing was, I didn't even WANT details. All I really wanted to know was if it was over, if he loved me and if he was ready to recommit to the marriage. At that point his words were only maybe 10% of the equation. The other 90% was all in the action.

Neesha,

Thank you...to clarify...I do not intend to disappear. What I meant is that I am not here to post about OW issues. I am here to learn whatever I can about building a strong and healthy relationship with the man I am dating.

OW can be a stigma that some people can not see beyond, and I would prefer that people see me as a whole person rather than only see me as OW. Because that was a very small part of my life. However, it's something that has also taught me valuable lessons, and perhaps it's just as well that I'm open about that.

i see what you're saying. i think almost all OWs asume it would be better for H to end the marriage based on the story he gave them, usually painting a horrible picture of the W and the marriage. i know in my situation, H has said that things were not good for him for months before the A actually started, but he never said anything to me about any of it until a week before d-day. of course this is also the same man that said that what he did was not an A bc i knew about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> bigtime denial.

oops double post

[ December 06, 2002, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: lostbuthopeful ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lostbuthopeful:
i see what you're saying. i think almost all OWs asume it would be better for H to end the marriage based on the story he gave them, usually painting a horrible picture of the W and the marriage. i know in my situation, H has said that things were not good for him for months before the A actually started, but he never said anything to me about any of it until a week before d-day. of course this is also the same man that said that what he did was not an A bc i knew about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> bigtime denial.<hr /></blockquote>I think that is often pretty typical. My H never told me that he was unhappy either until he informed me he was leaving 2 weeks into his affair, and I don't think he had realized he was unhappy until it started either. All I know is that I went away for afew days and everything seemed fine, then I came home to a completely different man who suddenly seemed to hate me and be miserable with his entire life. I found out later that when I was gone the OW (who he'd been keeping up a secret phone friendship with after she got fired from where they worked) called him up (her admission) and said "Since your wife is out of town let's get together and have afew drinks." That was when the actual affair began, before that it was an inappropriate friendship, he knew full well he was playing with fire.
People in a fog state often start to believe their own lies and fictions. He told the OW that we "hadn't been getting along for awhile" which was a total lie and that I didn't love him anymore (also a total lie, our relationship had always been very affectionate, and physical right up until right before he moved out). After he moved out he told her that I was GLAD that he was gone and I didn't want him back. Of course anyone with half a brain would have questioned that since no one was allowed to know that they were involved, they could only got very few places in public, he was supposedly "living" with her and his mail came here, all phone calls came here, she never met any of his friends etc. Doesn't sound much like a wife who is glad to be rid of her husband to me.
She had th nerve to say to me (I almost laughed) "I can't believe he lied to me!" I said "You knew perfectly well that he was married, and I'm sure you knew that he was lying to me right?" Her answer "Well, yeah. I just can't believe he did it to ME!" What a rocket scientist... He'd lie to the woman he lived with for years, married, gave his name to and planned a life with, but he wouldn't POSSIBLY lie to some dirty little secret that he'd been secretly seeing for 6 months lol.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She had th nerve to say to me (I almost laughed) "I can't believe he lied to me!" I said "You knew perfectly well that he was married, and I'm sure you knew that he was lying to me right?" Her answer "Well, yeah. I just can't believe he did it to ME!" What a rocket scientist... He'd lie to the woman he lived with for years, married, gave his name to and planned a life with, but he wouldn't POSSIBLY lie to some dirty little secret that he'd been secretly seeing for 6 months lol.<hr /></blockquote>LMAO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
if they only knew...

i think i'm lucky in that my H and i still talk as friends. he is being pretty open with me--i know of several lies he has told OW (also had the pleasure of informing him of a couple she told him). we all talk (long story--on 2 threads in JFO) so i'm hoping i have a pretty good idea about what's going on. never know tho...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lostbuthopeful:

if they only knew...

i think i'm lucky in that my H and i still talk as friends. he is being pretty open with me--i know of several lies he has told OW (also had the pleasure of informing him of a couple she told him). we all talk (long story--on 2 threads in JFO) so i'm hoping i have a pretty good idea about what's going on. never know tho...[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I've got to hand it to you (and all those of you in the situation), I know that i coud never have done Plan A if he'd ever been openly having an affair and discussing it with me. That was the reason I didn't choose to "investigate further" with my suspicions like everyone told me to. I knew that if I knew for sure I'd have to take action immediate action and it wouldn't have been pretty lol. So I chose the "if he is having an affair it's a symptom of a disease, and if we treat the disease the pustulent boil will go away." And that's pretty much what happened. It was the details that I never wanted to hear in the first place that really haunted me.

What gets in my crawl about h's xow is that she felt/feels that she has a place in our lives. I see that often in posts on gloryb. She has no more right to know anything about our family than anyone else does.

xow was talking to my husband on the phone with me right there. He told her it was over and she demanded that they see each other. When he again told her no, she threatened to contact me. So he handed me the phone. (I think she soiled her Victoria secret) This woman proceeded to tell me what she thought she knew about me, our marriage, our family and our life. Part of it I'm sure came from him and part from her own imagination. She was so wrong.

I know to this day she thinks he's here because of our daughter and that he doesn't want to give up half his assets. I never asked this man to return to us, in fact, I told him that if she made him happy that he should go to her with my blessings. I'll never understand why she can't let go, after all he treated her worse than dung stuck to his shoe.

I see so often on gloryb, people in such bad shape over a relationship that is a dead end street. It's really sad. The worst is emerald. She touts that she has all this experience and that she encourages people to get out of emrs, but recently I noticed she was back in contact with mm and discussing his wife with him. What a hypocrite! She's the same as the rest of them who "think" they understand about someone else's relationship without speaking to both parties and having enough time interacting with both parties to see the dynamics. She is the worst!

JPH,

You're frustration with OW is understandable. It is indeed sad when someone lacks the grace (or whatever it is they lack) to be able to let go when it is clear it is time to let go. I really have no desire to defend bad behavior. Nor is it my intention to defend emerald. She is quite capable of defending herself. One quick thought regarding this comment of yours, however:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The worst is emerald....She's the same as the rest of them who "think" they understand about someone else's relationship without speaking to both parties and having enough time interacting with both parties to see the dynamics. She is the worst! <hr /></blockquote>I believe the point emerald makes consistently is the same point you make here, only in reverse: That the W "thinks" she understands the relationship H has with OW. But W has not observed, usually not spoken with OW, and really has no way of knowing the dynamics of THAT relationship.