I post on both sites and a few others. I find that I can receive understanding and learning from many sites. I try to be respectful on all sites and not tread on too many toes, while still upholding my own values and beliefs.

I find that on many sites when someone starts a thread about another site...no healing or understanding or empathy is given or received. No support, just a lot of generalizations as to what is going on in the other site.

Normally, I stay as far away from these "joined" threads as possible. They are usually a waste of my valuable time. jmho

Gloryb has in the last few days has had an influx of a very few women whose only purpose is to see if by causing other's pain, they can lessen their own. Making catty remarks and definitely getting down into the muddy waters. Whenever this happens, the women there get just as "dirty" in that muddy water and they too began to make hurtful and stupid remarks.

It's sad. And it's a waste of energy/time which could be better used in posting on a site for help in dealing with our pain, confusion, and saddness.

I would like to say, from being a long time poster over there, that the majority of women on TOW do NOT ever encourage a person to began an affair. They are usually the most vocal on why it isn't the best idea. They know, they live it and they do know the pain that an affair brings to the OP. They do support those OP who are already in an affair, are trying to end the affair, or have ended the affair and trying to move on in their lives.

Each site has benefits for who it was primarily set up for. This site is for making a marriage better, rather there was an infidelity or not. This site is geared towards saving marriages which have been affected by problems whatever they may be. It has so much valuable information on how to help us help ourselves. I'm sure that it's saved many a marriage and has helped many people to grow and learn.

Good luck on whatever healing path you are treading.

Chandlergirl,

Thank you for your post. My impression of Gloryb was not so good. I didn't read too many threads, but what I did was hard to take. I was looking at it from my perspective which at the time was pretty raw (my emotions). I read some that posted with a very calous attitude which I didn't understand.

I have a friend who is the OW and I have learned so much from her as I explained in my previous post. She has shared her pain and frustrations with me as well as her joys. I thank God that I am not in her position. I have seen her manipulations of the MM and putting down his BW. I have tried to explain to her that unless she lets him go and he comes back on his own, ready to leave BW behind that she has nothing in this R. She's not listening right now.

D.

Many of the posters over there seem to be mainly concerned with validating themselves- but maybe it's different in the sections of the forum that deal with ending the affair. Alot of posters seemed to even resent OW who were disillusioned with being OW or who warned of an unhappy ending to the A.

I think it's regrettable that the OW over there need to refer to BSs who post there as "trolls". Since they delete those posts, who knows what those BSs said. Perhaps these BSs were impolitic, no doubt they are deeply hurting. I think it is part of the mindset of some of these OW to denigrate and deny those feelings, and to label them the feelings of a troll. Since there is a moderator called TrollPatrol, it seems to be a part of the culture of the board.

I think it is great if there is a part of the board that was helpful to Katie Scarlett and Chandler Girl in getting out of their unsatisfying relationships with MM.

I just read Please help me's thread and in all but one post (tommaz's) I felt people were trying to offer here helpful suggestions. Yes, sometimes they were blunt in their assessments. One poster was a little harsher at first and then apologized because she had misinterpreted the situation. Note that Please help me is posting more from the point of a WS, than an OW.

Welcome to MB Chandlergirl. I am sorry for the reaction you got from Kalgrl. She is no doubt someone who is hurting from the effects of an affair. We have all said that sometimes it is hard when OW's post here because some people have very raw emotions. But there are quite a few OW who post here. I think when someone comes here, trying to get away from the affair situation, or a WS who wants to restore their marriage, they will get alot of sympathy and helpful suggestions. Of course, some people are not tactful, we have alot of personalities on this board.

When you are a BS, you are going along in your marriage, following your vows, doing the best you can. Then it is like you are suddenly attacked and your world crumbles. Someone you may or may not know, is involved with your husband, and most of the time will not step out of the triangle. And as long as that other person is there, a husband and a wife can not begin to address the problems in their marriage. I think most wives here can accept if their marriages were to fail, in the absence of another person. If your H said, I'm so unhappy, let's do MC, let's try our best to make each other happy... and after a year, things weren't better, I think that is something most wives can accept. And they could deal with their H's moving on and eventually forming another relationship.

The OW on the other hand, chooses to get involved with a MM, and chooses to continue the relationship. She may well experience pain- but she knows the path she chose can be painful. Many of the OWs on gloryb. speculate as to what the BW is thinking, and why the BW stays with the MM, or ignores the affair or whatever.

I know for me, finding out about the OW was not just about my own personal disappointment in my H's behavior. I had to think about my young children, who are very happy in their family. As we celebrate the holidays together as a family this is underscored. It's strange how so many of the OW over there either minimize the family commitment "he's only staying for the kids" OR "Kids do just fine in divorce".

I know for me, I stayed with my H despite his absences, heavy work schedule, investment disasters, caustic putdowns, lack of attention, capped with infidelity. Well, the infidelity forced my H to confront some of his selfish and immature behaviors and he has truly become a man I can respect. He is unique and irreplaceable- my partner, my lover and the father of my children.

I can not really understand the mindset of these OW. In my case, the OW left her H, attempting to get my H to leave me. She knew he was married and had 3 children. She met him in a work situation were she saw him as powerful and affluent. She liked what she saw, although it was an illusion, and figured she would ride off into the sunset with my H since she was discontent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by espoir:
<strong>

It's strange how so many of the OW over there either minimize the family commitment "he's only staying for the kids" OR "Kids do just fine in divorce".

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't looked at that site4 in a long time, but that was always one of the things that really bugged me too. There were NUMEROUS times that I saw an OW say "his children will be much happier when they see their father with someone who he really loves, instead of in an unhappy marriage." First of all they are making a lot of assumptions based on what the MM is telling them (almost guaranteed not to be the whole truth) and what they desperately want to believe. They are alos making a lot of assumptions about children that they, hopefully, have never even met. It's sometimes almost like the OW is some sort of glorious, heaven sent being whose purpose on earth is to save this poor, hapless man and his children from the awful wife beast. Of course I also remember a lot of them talking about how their fathers were adulterers and their mothers were awful women and they love their fathers OWs. So I guess it has a lot to do with projecting and apples not falling far from the tree. They apparently learned from their own life experience that the first marriage and family are nothing but a pile of crap to be disrespected and cast aside, and it's the adulterous relationship that brings true happiness.

Point of information:

On TOW the term "trolls" does not refer to BS's but rather to trouble makers or OW bashers.

Espoir,

Thank you for your comments. I think this will be my last response to this thread (but who knows...) because I truly did not come here as a former OW. I have not been OW for 2 years and do not identify myself as that. I am someone who made a poor choice at a desperate time in my life. I have learned from it and have moved on.

[QB]Many of the posters over there seem to be mainly concerned with validating themselves- but maybe it's different in the sections of the forum that deal with ending the affair.

Yes, this is true. I think most OW feel very insecure about themselves. I am a strong person, but the emr reduced me to an insecure weakling...a person I did not recognize and did not like. The first step to being able to leave an emr is to reclaim our true SELVES, and that means we need to first validate our experience. I'm sure that must feel like a pretty shart thorn to a betrayed spouse. Probably the major area of contention that is displayed on these boards.

[Alot of posters seemed to even resent OW who were disillusioned with being OW or who warned of an unhappy ending to the A.

Yes. Very true. I can not speak for all, but I believe that the reason the OW seeks out a support board such as GloryB is BECAUSE she is feeling stress and hurt from the emr. I looked for a place to learn how others were coping with that and found GloryB. I also did not want to hear the enlightened experience of former OW who warned of what was to come. The truth is difficult to hear. But...we DO hear it, it DOES sink in, but it has to be something we can absorb at our own pace.

I think it's regrettable that the OW over there need to refer to BSs who post there as "trolls".

May I just say that the only BSs referred to as "trolls" are the ones who are rude, crass, and spew vitriolic venom. Those who are polite and can conduct a reasonable conversation are actually quite welcome. I and others recognize that the spewing does come from deep hurt, and that the OW who react strongly are also responding out of a place of pain and denial.

I just read Please help me's thread and in all but one post (tommaz's) I felt people were trying to offer here helpful suggestions. Yes, sometimes they were blunt in their assessments. One poster was a little harsher at first and then apologized because she had misinterpreted the situation. [

I understand that people were genuinely trying to offer help, and I agree with the bluntness. All I am saying is that all the advice on that thread is stuff Please Help Me (and I) already have told ourselves. We know WHAT we need to do. What we NEED to be able to do it is someone to walk alongside and help us find our true SELF. Although the advice was essentially sound...there is a fundamental lack of understanding and empathy that is essential for healing. I understand that. I think that can only come from someone who has walked the same path...hence...there is a place like GloryB.

Welcome to MB Chandlergirl. I am sorry for the reaction you got from Kalgrl. She is no doubt someone who is hurting from the effects of an affair.

I understand this completely. I am not offended. I understand pain...my own and others. Again, lest I get a "reputation" here as being "that OW from GloryB..." that is not why I am here. But I understand the reaction. Thank you for your welcome.

The OW on the other hand, chooses to get involved with a MM, and chooses to continue the relationship. She may well experience pain- but she knows the path she chose can be painful. Many of the OWs on gloryb. speculate as to what the BW is thinking, and why the BW stays with the MM, or ignores the affair or whatever.

This is my biggest frustration with most of the OW at GloryB. There IS a blindness, a refusal to accept responsibility for choices, an attitude that OW has no responsibility for the breakdown in a marriage. This, of course, is ridiculous. Some people, however, will never see this.

It's strange how so many of the OW over there either minimize the family commitment "he's only staying for the kids" OR "Kids do just fine in divorce".

Again, I agree...I think OW must learn to tell themselves the truth. They prefer not to do that. However, it's difficult to tell yourself the truth when MM is not telling himself the truth either. MM tells OW he loves her for whatever reason...that he wants to be with her, that he is unhappy. OW clings to that...I think the biggest issue in an emr is just that...the participants do not necessarily "lie" to each other or their spouses. Fundamentally, they lie to themselves, and that is a very tricky problem to overcome...from all sides of the triangle. I am sorry for your trauma and hope that your marriage will grow stronger for the struggle you now go through. Truthfully, I feel far more affinity for you than for most of the OW at GloryB. I agree.

I am dating a man who, on our first date, confessed that he had stepped outside his marriage. I confessed that I had also been an OW. We understand the fragility of intimate relationships...and are committed to the truth and transparency and hard work it requires to build a strong bond that can endure.

The only thing I want to add to what I've posted here is that, in a strange way that I doubt I can ever explain, the emr brought a lot of healing to me for deep wounds I experienced LONG AGO that I don't think I would have experienced any other way. The Lord works in mysterious ways. I would have never expected that, but it is a testament to the power of God's grace. And I believe it can work the same way in a marriage. An emr is a horrible, destructive thing. There is no defense for my choice and I don't pretend that there is. But...in the end, God CAN transform our choices to accomplish his own purposes. To give us a hope and a future. I pray that is what happens in the marriages represented here.

<small>[ December 06, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Chandlergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
originally posted by fairydust

First of all they are making a lot of assumptions based on what the MM is telling them (almost guaranteed not to be the whole truth) and what they desperately want to believe. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">isn't that in a sense the same thing we are doing? usually the MM is telling his wife one thing and telling OW the complete opposite; the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but all the BS and OW have to go by are what MM says and does.

i'm not defending EMAs--i think that they are wrong and most of the time the people involved know that EMA is wrong. All i'm saying is that alot of the blame is put on OWs (who are equally at fault when they know the man is married) for a situation that the H created to begin with.

just to make my POV clear:
regardless of who "started" the A, the H made the choice to go outside the marriage. once OW knows he is married, she is equally at fault for continuing the affair. in the majority of EMAs, the H is lying to both women to get what he wants.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lostbuthopeful:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
originally posted by fairydust
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">isn't that in a sense the same thing we are doing? usually the MM is telling his wife one thing and telling OW the complete opposite; the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but all the BS and OW have to go by are what MM says and does.

i'm not defending EMAs--i think that they are wrong and most of the time the people involved know that EMA is wrong. All i'm saying is that alot of the blame is put on OWs (who are equally at fault when they know the man is married) for a situation that the H created to begin with.

just to make my POV clear:
regardless of who "started" the A, the H made the choice to go outside the marriage. once OW knows he is married, she is equally at fault for continuing the affair. in the majority of EMAs, the H is lying to both women to get what he wants.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My quote was taken out of context. I was referring to the state of the marriage and the feelings of the children, not the whole thing in general. The BS LIVES in the marriage, the OW only hears what the MM tells her. The BS KNOWS his/her children, the OP has (hopefully) never even met them. She is a complete outsider to the true workings of the family, the BS is not.
Of course the WS is lying to both parties in 99% of cases (especially when the WS is a man). Lies are the entire foundation of affairs and what keeps them going.
As far as blame - The OW would have been pretty much a non entity to me if she hadn't decided to try to make my life a living hell after she got kicked to the curb by my WH. Direct quotes from her incessant harassing phone calls "If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me." "I'm glad I was able to cause you pain." "I used to pray every day that you'd have a miscarriage." "I don't care about you or your feelings, or your family or his family. He broke MY heart!" "you ruined my life by taking him back." Plenty more where that came from..... Sleeping with my husband is a tiny drop in the bucket of what I blamed her for.
I should add that my experience is FAR from unique. I've encountered many, many betrayed wives over the past 3 and a half years who had similar, post affair experiences with the OW as I had, or even worse. If you didn't, consider yourself very lucky.

<small>[ December 06, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: fairydust ]</small>

chandlergirl, I for one hope you stay here as long as you want to, you have been very caring and honest in your posts. Like I have said before in a post on this thread, we all can learn from each other, noone is above that and I know that in this day and time, I live for today, and in living for today I want it to be as emotionally and mentally rewarding as possible. I think we all want that in our lives, we all have made choices no matter who is who BS,WS,OW/OM, that has lead us to these crossroads in out lives, it is up to us to let these crossroads direct us to another awareness of ourselves that maybe we always had but forgot to utilize everyday, or maybe they were lying dormant and needed to surface to our consciousness in order to grow. I have always been the type of person who wants to grow as a being, and I feel that we all want that. I hope you stay, but if you do not, please know that I wish you the best. Take Care.

tried to post a little while ago butsomehow got logged out in the middle of it (again) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

fairydust--
just want to clarify what i meant by
"aren't we in a sense doing the same thing". all i meant was that all the OW knows about the marriage is what MM tells them; all we know about the affair is what MM tells us. And it's not right for OW to pretend she knows how the marriage really is, nor is it right for the us to pretend to know what is really going on with the affair. all we know is what he tells us and what we can infer from his behavior and actions.

i'm so sorry you had to go through all that with the OW. she sounds like a real psycho <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . i haven't read your story, but i hope that things have gotten much better for you

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lostbuthopeful:
<strong>tried to post a little while ago butsomehow got logged out in the middle of it (again) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

fairydust--
just want to clarify what i meant by
"aren't we in a sense doing the same thing". all i meant was that all the OW knows about the marriage is what MM tells them; all we know about the affair is what MM tells us. And it's not right for OW to pretend she knows how the marriage really is, nor is it right for the us to pretend to know what is really going on with the affair. all we know is what he tells us and what we can infer from his behavior and actions.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you are saying. But my post wasn't at all about that larger aspect of the whole thing. It was just about what the wife KNOWS goes on in the marriage and about the children. I remember seeing on that board many occasions where the OW made all kinds of decisions and justifications in her head about what she considered would be best for the MM's children, who she didn't even know. The OW who were of that particular mindset usually decided that what would be best would be for the MM to leave his wife be with her, the kids to be delighted about Dad's new girlfriend and the wife to never say a peep or make their new lives the slightest bit difficult. All for the sake of the kids of course. Yeah, right.
As far as the affair as a whole, it depends on the situation. Post D-day I was stuck with an OW who has suddenly become the world's biggest chatterbox and couldn't wait to tell me every detail lol, so I definitely heard from both sides. Funny thing was, I didn't even WANT details. All I really wanted to know was if it was over, if he loved me and if he was ready to recommit to the marriage. At that point his words were only maybe 10% of the equation. The other 90% was all in the action.

Neesha,

Thank you...to clarify...I do not intend to disappear. What I meant is that I am not here to post about OW issues. I am here to learn whatever I can about building a strong and healthy relationship with the man I am dating.

OW can be a stigma that some people can not see beyond, and I would prefer that people see me as a whole person rather than only see me as OW. Because that was a very small part of my life. However, it's something that has also taught me valuable lessons, and perhaps it's just as well that I'm open about that.

i see what you're saying. i think almost all OWs asume it would be better for H to end the marriage based on the story he gave them, usually painting a horrible picture of the W and the marriage. i know in my situation, H has said that things were not good for him for months before the A actually started, but he never said anything to me about any of it until a week before d-day. of course this is also the same man that said that what he did was not an A bc i knew about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> bigtime denial.

oops double post

<small>[ December 06, 2002, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: lostbuthopeful ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lostbuthopeful:
<strong>i see what you're saying. i think almost all OWs asume it would be better for H to end the marriage based on the story he gave them, usually painting a horrible picture of the W and the marriage. i know in my situation, H has said that things were not good for him for months before the A actually started, but he never said anything to me about any of it until a week before d-day. of course this is also the same man that said that what he did was not an A bc i knew about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> bigtime denial.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that is often pretty typical. My H never told me that he was unhappy either until he informed me he was leaving 2 weeks into his affair, and I don't think he had realized he was unhappy until it started either. All I know is that I went away for afew days and everything seemed fine, then I came home to a completely different man who suddenly seemed to hate me and be miserable with his entire life. I found out later that when I was gone the OW (who he'd been keeping up a secret phone friendship with after she got fired from where they worked) called him up (her admission) and said "Since your wife is out of town let's get together and have afew drinks." That was when the actual affair began, before that it was an inappropriate friendship, he knew full well he was playing with fire.
People in a fog state often start to believe their own lies and fictions. He told the OW that we "hadn't been getting along for awhile" which was a total lie and that I didn't love him anymore (also a total lie, our relationship had always been very affectionate, and physical right up until right before he moved out). After he moved out he told her that I was GLAD that he was gone and I didn't want him back. Of course anyone with half a brain would have questioned that since no one was allowed to know that they were involved, they could only got very few places in public, he was supposedly "living" with her and his mail came here, all phone calls came here, she never met any of his friends etc. Doesn't sound much like a wife who is glad to be rid of her husband to me.
She had th nerve to say to me (I almost laughed) "I can't believe he lied to me!" I said "You knew perfectly well that he was married, and I'm sure you knew that he was lying to me right?" Her answer "Well, yeah. I just can't believe he did it to ME!" What a rocket scientist... He'd lie to the woman he lived with for years, married, gave his name to and planned a life with, but he wouldn't POSSIBLY lie to some dirty little secret that he'd been secretly seeing for 6 months lol.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She had th nerve to say to me (I almost laughed) "I can't believe he lied to me!" I said "You knew perfectly well that he was married, and I'm sure you knew that he was lying to me right?" Her answer "Well, yeah. I just can't believe he did it to ME!" What a rocket scientist... He'd lie to the woman he lived with for years, married, gave his name to and planned a life with, but he wouldn't POSSIBLY lie to some dirty little secret that he'd been secretly seeing for 6 months lol.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LMAO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
if they only knew...

i think i'm lucky in that my H and i still talk as friends. he is being pretty open with me--i know of several lies he has told OW (also had the pleasure of informing him of a couple she told him). we all talk (long story--on 2 threads in JFO) so i'm hoping i have a pretty good idea about what's going on. never know tho...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lostbuthopeful:

if they only knew...

i think i'm lucky in that my H and i still talk as friends. he is being pretty open with me--i know of several lies he has told OW (also had the pleasure of informing him of a couple she told him). we all talk (long story--on 2 threads in JFO) so i'm hoping i have a pretty good idea about what's going on. never know tho...[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've got to hand it to you (and all those of you in the situation), I know that i coud never have done Plan A if he'd ever been openly having an affair and discussing it with me. That was the reason I didn't choose to "investigate further" with my suspicions like everyone told me to. I knew that if I knew for sure I'd have to take action immediate action and it wouldn't have been pretty lol. So I chose the "if he is having an affair it's a symptom of a disease, and if we treat the disease the pustulent boil will go away." And that's pretty much what happened. It was the details that I never wanted to hear in the first place that really haunted me.

What gets in my crawl about h's xow is that she felt/feels that she has a place in our lives. I see that often in posts on gloryb. She has no more right to know anything about our family than anyone else does.

xow was talking to my husband on the phone with me right there. He told her it was over and she demanded that they see each other. When he again told her no, she threatened to contact me. So he handed me the phone. (I think she soiled her Victoria secret) This woman proceeded to tell me what she thought she knew about me, our marriage, our family and our life. Part of it I'm sure came from him and part from her own imagination. She was so wrong.

I know to this day she thinks he's here because of our daughter and that he doesn't want to give up half his assets. I never asked this man to return to us, in fact, I told him that if she made him happy that he should go to her with my blessings. I'll never understand why she can't let go, after all he treated her worse than dung stuck to his shoe.

I see so often on gloryb, people in such bad shape over a relationship that is a dead end street. It's really sad. The worst is emerald. She touts that she has all this experience and that she encourages people to get out of emrs, but recently I noticed she was back in contact with mm and discussing his wife with him. What a hypocrite! She's the same as the rest of them who "think" they understand about someone else's relationship without speaking to both parties and having enough time interacting with both parties to see the dynamics. She is the worst!

JPH,

You're frustration with OW is understandable. It is indeed sad when someone lacks the grace (or whatever it is they lack) to be able to let go when it is clear it is time to let go. I really have no desire to defend bad behavior. Nor is it my intention to defend emerald. She is quite capable of defending herself. One quick thought regarding this comment of yours, however:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The worst is emerald....She's the same as the rest of them who "think" they understand about someone else's relationship without speaking to both parties and having enough time interacting with both parties to see the dynamics. She is the worst! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe the point emerald makes consistently is the same point you make here, only in reverse: That the W "thinks" she understands the relationship H has with OW. But W has not observed, usually not spoken with OW, and really has no way of knowing the dynamics of THAT relationship.