Why Do People CHEAT. Your personal thoughts please

Hi

Okay odd question for me to ask right. Being that Im a WS and all. I should know right. Well Nope.

There are so many reasons why but I would like everyone (BS and WS) to tell me WHY people cheat. Don't tell me what MB says about why people cheat, or any book says. Please tell me what YOU personally think as to why people cheat.

Please. Just your honest, gut feeling thoughts on why people cheat. Don't take it off MB, Books or anything. JUST YOUR OWN PERSONAL thoughts...

Thanks,
Zoey
*A former WS*
In Recovery

My first answer to this question would be:
Selfcenteredness

May think on it and revise it later.

Because they can.

Because when opportunity knocks, it dawns on them how easy it is to fool a spouse who genuinely trusts you and doesn't ask questions.

Because they convince themselves that their case is different and special and THEY aren't cheating. They're just "co-workers spending time together," or they're "taking an extension of the workday," or they're "attending a TeamBuilding (spit) event," or they're "traveling on business together," or they're "supporting a colleague."

Because it's enormously flattering, tremendously ego-boosting, and positively addicting to have both a jealous, worried spouse *and* an attractive OP begging for their attention.

Because even if they do get caught, they learn that they can lie and bully and bullsh*t their way out of any consequences.

Because they can.

Because...

One day they decide that all their morals, all their hopes and all their dreams for a good life, all their integrity... doesn't matter as much as being noticed, loved, by that special someone who isn't their spouse.

And so a momentum begins, and a spark becomes a flame, and that flame becomes a fire.

And then it consumes everything, destroying all that it touches.

Because they get to a place where IT doesn't really matter anymore... they are so hurting... so dead inside that when someone comes along that says the right words and they start to feel that tingle of life again... THAT becomes their hope and what they look forward to...

...most of the time they are so HIDING from their current relationship that they THINK they are shouting when in fact they are mute... they are so inside themselves that the familiar can't reach them... only something NEW...

...their current life seems so filled w/ pain and the NEW person helps alleviate that pain... the dream of a new life seems the EASIEST way to go... ESCAPE... ESCAPE... ESCAPE...

Cali

Because they are weak, self-centered, and have no moral values.

Wow...why did that feel good to say?????

I really don't know. Maybe because they are trusted way too much, and sometimes you let them bite off more than needed and so they just keep wanting more.

They think the grass is greener? but little do they know it is only astro-turf.sp?

They don't know the true meaning of commitment.
They think a lie isn't a lie, if you don't tell.
They are possessed by uncontrolled demons.???

They have everything they have ever wanted in the world, except inner happyness so they search somewhere else.

They have the need to be the center of attention at all costs...

These are just things that go through my mind.

[ December 17, 2002, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: M T B ]

'Cause they could !. They think that they could get away with it.

-rh-

hmmm...something I have pondered many times. I think there are many reasons--here's a few of my thoughts--

Because they can--pure selfishness. I think a lot of WSs think that noone will ever know anyway, and basically, think that what the bs doesn't know won't hurt him/her. They just don't realize how much pain it causes (for themselves too) and how many lives it disrupts.

Because something is missing in their marriage--whether it be companionship, a fulfilling sex life, that "new lust infatuation" feeling that I think so many people confuse with real, deep love. I know in my case, h felt like we didn't talk like we used to, so he turned to a friend/co-worker and it led to A.

The relationship/marriage has reached the "comfortable" level. Some people fell that at this stage, the R is boring, or the spark is gone. Pretty much goes back to that new lust infatuation thing.

Low self esteem or mlc. OP makes WS feel like they've "still got it". WS may feel he/she was taken for granted, not appreciated by bs, and OP makes him/her feel wanted attractive, and appreciated. And I'm assuming it's a pretty big ego boost for WS--when someone wants you so much they're willing to share you and settle for a part-time relationship.

Gettin tired--brain stalled.
These are just a few of my theories--I know there are plenty more.

Thanks Everyone,
I posted this in Recovey too and I got just what I wanted in both places. Everyone's TRUE feelings on why people cheat. I sincerely appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me outside of what MB or the books tell you.

Michael_A in recovery hit home for me on why I did.

Cali you also said something

Because they get to a place where IT doesn't really matter anymore... they are so hurting... so dead inside that when someone comes along that says the right words and they start to feel that tingle of life again... THAT becomes their hope and what they look forward to...

My hole I was in was so dark that when that person came along, I was so desperate for a tiny ray of light that I took it when it came. I was so lost emotionally and mentally I lost all sense of right and wrong. I was dead basically. The day my husband found out SAVED my life. It was bad.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Keep them coming.

Zoey

IMMHO,

Because they have their head up their a**!! At least that's how I feel about my W's A. She had everything....... The biggest problem was that she also had a need for Companionship but I didn't see it because I worked (2) jobs to give her everything. Then along came and [censored]**** that told her she was beautiful and sexy (which I was telling her also) but, that didn't matter.

Basically she thought it would be easy to get away with it but her guilt got her caught and now that same guilt has her stalled...........

Sorry for venting some but when recovery stalls because of guilt it really sucks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am in poasition to generalize the reasons for all, but based on my own experience of being a WS in our relationship, I will place the reasons in the following priority:-

1. Insensitive and dishonest by nature.
2. Uncommitted.
3. Extremely selfish.
4. Misplaced confidence that it will remain hidden for ever.
5. Convincing that what is not known will not hurt the Spouse.
6. Looking for new excitement and ignoring the established relationship.

I could go on, but these are the prime factors in my case.

Someone catches the eye.. things aren't so wonderful at home...you are feeling a little better about yourself than about your spouse.. and that your needs aren't being met, and that you deserve a little happiness... etc etc.

It is a real bummer....

Instant gratification, answer to problems, compliments.. finding happiness in others, etc.

Alcoholic or drug induced situation.

YOu don't face reality with an A, fantasy world.. no real world issues ...

hugs and luck to you , H

Cali and Zoey,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Because they get to a place where IT doesn't really matter anymore... they are so hurting... so dead inside that when someone comes along that says the right words and they start to feel that tingle of life again... THAT becomes their hope and what they look forward to...

My hole I was in was so dark that when that person came along, I was so desperate for a tiny ray of light that I took it when it came. I was so lost emotionally and mentally I lost all sense of right and wrong. I was dead basically. The day my husband found out SAVED my life. It was bad.
<hr /></blockquote>I third that!

I'm sure some of you have read my threads. I was very close to taking my own life. I pleaded with my partner to help, but he didn't know how. I turned to someone else because I felt that he validated me as a person. I was so lost and blind.

That darkness is a very bad place to find yourself in.

It's nice to hear that others walked the same path that I did and did recover. I'm working VERY hard to get there.

Thanks for the post idea.

As a formew wayward partner and ow I 4th what Cali said.

But I also think cheating is about

- trust issues
- addiction
- opportunity
- lack of gratitude
- loss of self esteem
- anger

Mostly though I think it's about anger and opportunity.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
Mostly though I think it's about anger and opportunity.<hr /></blockquote>I agree ... and add fear to the list.

I don't know the reasons in general. I'm not sure there are general reasons. For me it started with anger about the rejection in my situation, then it became a habit or obsession. Eventually I just compartmentalized my life so I could live with myself.

I broke my life into two parts and lived that way for a long time. I still live that way a little since I struggle with putting the parts together again.

I never hated my wife or even wanted to leave. I just wanted to build a life that included everything I wanted. I guess that is childish but I was childish when I got married.

I hope this provides some insight to my particular situation. I'm not sure this applies to other people.

Jack

I also agree with the most of the posters about reaching a place mentally where IT happens, and also I agree with the anger part so much, especially unspoken anger, where one lets it build and build and in doing that they make an opportunity present itself where they can justify an A, an also lash out at the BS. It's like a 2 edged sword that can do so much damage to the one weilding it and to BS. I am the BS, but I know my WS was angry at me for what he felt was HIS FAILURES. He blamed me for everything that he chose to do or not do, so the anger and resentment grew inside of him and voila, here comes an "innocent" into his realm of thinking that can save him from the psuedo-tortured prison he has made for himself, and thus save him from the one who put him there (in his mind me). But as we all know, time and the truth does surface in this type of thinking. He sees WS as needing saving as he is desperately trying to save himself, so in their minds they are the oppressed souls that were brought together. And to think, all this is happening in their minds know matter how logical, and sane they appear. Now granted all issues and situations are different, but main ingredients are still present, (anger, ego, depression, self-esteem issues, emotional pain, lonliness, lack of happiness within self, etc.) Seems constant that people who have affairs, always seem to have to validate themselves from outside of their own bodies, or via someone else that they give more credence to then in believing it in themselves. Sorry so long and babblesome!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> GRRRRRR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I want to 5th 6th and 7th what Cali Said!

the triggers in this post are making me see RED!!

how about because their spouse is so selfish and selfcentered that the screaming that the WS did about how things were going were simply silenced because it was The WS's problem and they should figure out how to live with it after all things were just fine or only moderatly uncomfortable for them!!!

for the record if your spouse has bought 24 how to fix your marriage books and is repeatedly asking you to go the marriage counseling the appropriate response isnt "thats the way it is deal with it"

I guess if you look at A's as a completely seperate component from the Marriage you can easily dismiss any of your own actions as contributing to the dispare the WS feels but then again that would make one feel better about whats happened wouldnt it.

of course my standard disclaimer: if you are married to a jerk or a slut who just cant keep it in their pants then none of this really apply's now does it. just remember who picked em.

Chaz,

I would guess that I fall into the slut category according to you but I was/am still dealing with alot of pain and the cheating helped me deal with that. Not the best way to deal with it but I was unable to express my problems to my wife in a way the made things better.

I don't think I'm any worse than the other cheaters just because I had alot of casual sex instead of one or two deep relationships.

Jack

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ConfusedJack:
Chaz,

I would guess that I fall into the slut category according to you but I was/am still dealing with alot of pain and the cheating helped me deal with that. Jack<hr /></blockquote>There is a difference between someone who thinks its acceptible to have side action and someone who doesnt. i dont get to decide where you fall thats between you and your wife.

if i believed what the BS's on this post wrote, most of them are married to people who simply think its ok. I just dont believe that they would be so diligent in their efforts to stay married to them if they REALLY believed that.

My WS said it didnt' start out to be Physical. But they were meeting emotional needs as both were having bad time in M. Then it became a PA. The weird part is he was, according to her, taking time to pay attention to her in emails and by phone. In fact, one thing that hurts is I read where she'd tell him what time she would be calling and to pick up the phone. Obviously he was ignoring my calls and I had great need to that emotional support he was giving away. Anyhow, he had since admitted it was all a fantasy. She was not younger than I, same age, and not nearly as attractive. But she was upbeat and made him happy to be talking to and around when they met twice in another state for PA. He has since admitted all the problems we were having due to deep depression I went through for 5 yrs, due to another A he had years before, was the cause of his seeking A. He admitted he had given up on us and was going to divorce anyway. However, we're in recovery now and doing much better. And she's out of the picture. At first he refused to say anything bad about her, still does to some extent. But he knew her in HIgh school years before, like 43 yrs before! They thought they would recapture all that zing they had in youth, but found out it's gone and not returning. YEH! Good that he found out, it was something he had to do to wake himselfl up, but bad for the pain it has caused me and the feelings that change forever as far as I'm concerned. Shortly after ending it, supposedly he saw a counselor at work. Said he told the counselor that he would have been miserable if he'd given me up for her. Supposedly our sex life is far better too than with her. But, he was in the fantasy world and not thinking clearly. We had had some bad years of ups and downs, arguing a lot, fighting, and me leaving many times. Oh well, as long as he's truthful when he says he never would have given me up and sorry for the hurt. Seems to regret it all and would change it if he could. It sounds good to me, but the hard part is knowing if it's sincere. But hey,he's still with me so that must count for something. Right? He could leave anytime he wanted now. But says never going anywhere without me again. And she also wrote me that she would never have contact with him ever again. I think she feels used too. I hope so! The anger in me is still enough to want her to suffer her own consequences, I did tell her husband and sent him all the emails so she'd have to answer to him and work out her problems there. Not just leave us to work out the problem and have all the hurts. I think I did the right thing and I'd do it again. Of course, H kicked her out at first, but they reconciled. The risk was if mine would run to her aid. I think she called him mad about me, and he saw an atty,but didn't go through with it. Now he says he'd never go to her if she was divorced, widowed, single no matter how. Says we're climbing the mountain together for the rest of our lives. I do see how he was unhappy as I was too. But infidelity is not the solution ever! Nor justified. He should have put as much effort into our relationship and I'd have healed long ago. Instead of giving her what I needed. fulfilling her EN's and feeling she needed him. BULL S---. I had far greater need than her!And I've made it clear I expect the respect, and the EN's be met. Otherwise, leave! So, he seems to be out of the fog and remorseful. But the fantasy could hit anyone I suppose. What they don't realize at the time is they are not changing issues, just partners. The grass on the other side has weeds too! It's easy to feel up and happy if all you're doing in the A is going on vacations, with no responsibilities. But when they live together, she has to cook, do laundry, iron, pay bills and meet the everday problems.and this applies to all WS's, it's a different story. now they're right back in reality! And it losed it's flavor. LOL At least you know the demon you live with, The S, as opposed to starting over with someone new. Stupidly, the WS's don't realize the OP has problems to and will drag new baggage into their relationship as well.
Many reasons why they cheat. But some are just addicted and immoral. Without God as head of a M, it isn't going to be a happy one is my belief. God, then the couple, then kids and so forth on down. In that order! There has to be a center in all this to make it work. For me at least.
Hope this helps some understand. LouLou

The WS finds the affair brings a reflected sense of self that is both flattering and addicting.

"Gee ... this other person thinks I'm *all that AND a bag of chips* .... I like being with someone with whom I feel so special."

Those with a weak sense of their own character fall prey to this type of phoney reflection of who they are.

The affair makes them like themselves, for awhile ... then, once the affair is exposed to the world ... their self-image begins to tarnish and lose some sparkle. In order to maintain the affair ... the participants need to make each other feel good about themselves.

"I am wonderful because YOU say I am."

But, the affair relationship involves covering up truths ... and that is a recipe for failure.... in both an affair relationship or a marriage relationship.

A major part of recovery is uncovering truths about the marriage and about the individuals in the marriage. If the WS, or the BS is too weak (or for whatever reason) is incapable of facing the truth ... then the relationship will increase the level of suckage <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ December 18, 2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Pep,

Very true words.

ConfusedJack: You put it really well in words. I totally understood what you said.

Chaz: SORRY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I didn't mean this thread to be a trigger. I just got a bit tired of what the books say and this and that says and wanted what to know what everyone's heart and gut say.

Thanks everyone
Zoey

I would love to know why peole cheat.....
Just found out my husband cheated on me...and now he wants to work it out...but how do I trust him again...It is so fresh, the pain...I can not stop crying,
I thought our life was good... I ws happy and I thought he was...he has the nerve to tell me he was..he does not know why he did it...
I always tried to be a good wife...and now I am qanting to know what I did so wrong to make him want someone else......I am sorry for going on like this...
cindy

Chaz, I am a BS, and also was blindsided about my WS, he never felt cheating was moral, or something one should do until they disengaged from relationship. Well, all those beliefs went out the door in Oct/02. Could have knocked me over with a feather. Did I think he was capable of it, Yep, because I have watched him slowly disengage from life by making life an albatross around his neck. Did I try having communication with him to get us past that, and also to get him to view life a little different? Yep. But he let tomorrow, the future, money be what made up the man he became which was not a happy man, in fact, a man that had to escape real life as soon as he could. He picked an A to make this happen and by golly is riding it all the way to the max. He had choices he could make, but he chose the most destructive one for himself and family and the MOW's family. He blamed me and was angry with me because how HE chose to view life, he resented that I did not and still do not look at life as one big burden. Now he is in his fantasy life which will bring on the same results since he chooses to look on the exterior and not from within to change the man he chooses to be. So I can understand your seeing red. There are no rational reasons why one chooses to have affairs, it's weaknessess that maybe YOU don't have in your character. But one thing is for sure, if anyone should have had an affair, it would have been me, because that's how deaf WS chose to be in listening to me on creating a helathy relationship. I am and probably will be too darn stubborn to have not tried, but I was not going to be his smoking gun and have one!!! And he also chose a married woman, huh, let's make it more complicated for ourselves when we are sabatoging our lives!! He has to change, and SOME people choose not to, and so we go on learning from what we experience, does'nt make it anymore glorious now does it? Sorry for my rambling, thought I needed to address Chaz as he was so upset.

Honest to God Chaz if you lived in Queens you'd be my xMM. Your story is his story.

I'd never seen a man read to many self help books, be so frustrated and stuck. I loved him, wanted to help him and our friendship became something more. Maybe that's why 18 months after the end of a 10 year affair I can't bring myself to regret it.

I'm not saying that the A was right. But it filled a need in both of us.

[ December 18, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Neesha:
Could have knocked me over with a feather. Did I think he was capable of it, Yep, because I have watched him slowly disengage from life

Do you not see how contradictory that is? I saw it coming a mile away but poor poor me you could have knocked me over with a feather.

bull

Did I try having communication with him to get us past that, and also to get him to view life a little different? Yep. But he let tomorrow, the future, money be what made up the man he became which was not a happy man, in fact, a man that had to escape real life as soon as he could.

there are people that are emotionally disfunctional, had it been your child, would you have done it the same way? wouldnt you have intervened called a doctor or a psycologist someone who could have made a difference?

but you choose to see only how bad it was for you and watched him desolve.

So I can understand your seeing red. There are no rational reasons why one chooses to have affairs, it's weaknessess that maybe YOU don't have in your character.

Its no secret that it is weakness that allows someone to make the decision to have an A, what is in question however is what and who causes and contributes to the weakness. its one thing to see that the one person you are supposed to love and cherish for ever is in pain, its quite another to excuse yourself from the situation as if you have nothing to do with how life is going for that person.

I am assuming that you would never accept that by having an Affair you husband didnt affect you or how life was going for you in the least, you should just get over it right? your logic if flawed.

But one thing is for sure, if anyone should have had an affair, it would have been me, because that's how deaf WS chose to be in listening to me on creating a helathy relationship. I am and probably will be too darn stubborn to have not tried,

so you were too stubborn and selfish to recognize the you had a part in the reality of the marriage, even as dysfunctional as it seemed to you, you were there participating and creating the environment, and it sounds as though when it got uncomfortable or bad from your perspective you abandoned him and are now complaining that he did the same.

but I was not going to be his smoking gun and have one!!! And he also chose a married woman, huh, let's make it more complicated for ourselves when we are sabatoging our lives!!

when your all f'ed up you dont make good decisions.

He has to change, and SOME people choose not to, and so we go on learning from what we experience,

how much more sympathy and understanding i could have for you if only you would say "We have to change" but you absolve yourself of any responsibility in the life of your WS how nice.

does'nt make it anymore glorious now does it? Sorry for my rambling, thought I needed to address Chaz as he was so upset.

What exactly what your goal in addressing me?

what i heard was that you watched as your H self destructed and did nothing but act surprised when he succeeded.

sorry i must have missed the point

<hr /></blockquote>

Cindy,

I am sorry you are in so much pain. I think I am similar to your husband, except I know why I cheated.

There are many areas of my marriage that I really like. I do love my wife. But, I was not happy about the sexual/romantic part of our relationship. I finally gave up and just got my sex and romance from other women. I did this for about 10 years before I got caught. At that point it was such a part of my life that it took me a while to really get that it hurt my wife.

One of the things that I think hurt her the most was that she thinks I am very attractive physically. She even keeps her "mean jack" shirtless photo of me in her wallet. She was proud that I cared to stay in shape for her. The discovery shattered that illusion. She concluded that I did not care if she was attracted to me. That was not true. I do care. I care deeply, it just seemed like a lost cause and I certainly wasn;t going to ask her. I didn't want to hear her say she found be unattractive.
The point of my rambling anecdote is that your husband probably does know why he cheated. He may be afraid to tell you why.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cindy31:
I would love to know why peole cheat.....
Just found out my husband cheated on me...and now he wants to work it out...but how do I trust him again...It is so fresh, the pain...I can not stop crying,
I thought our life was good... I ws happy and I thought he was...he has the nerve to tell me he was..he does not know why he did it...
I always tried to be a good wife...and now I am qanting to know what I did so wrong to make him want someone else......I am sorry for going on like this...
cindy<hr /></blockquote>

[ December 18, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: ConfusedJack ]

Chaz, I'm sorry that you have never read any of my threads as you would then perhaps not judge me as you are doing by this one thread. So, I will not defend what I said in the thread because it would be moot. Sorry you misunderstood me and what I was trying to convey, I guess I misunderstood your point in your thread that I responded too. Take Care

Pure selfishness. Plain and simple. With a heaping dose of self pity added for flaver.
"My S won't listen to me, Doesn't say the wonderful things to me, he/she used to say, Doesn't pay attention to me, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH"

So why the heck didn't you just get a divorce? Chaz? I'll tell you why, selfishness that's why. Me, me, me. Forget that the BS is out working 80 hours a week to give you a good life. Forget that the BS has daily issues that aren't getting addressed as well. It's self pity mode and I'm going to do something about it, "hey this OP thinks I am the cats meow, he/she is the answer to my problems". Please!

If things are so bad then get a divorce. To do less is selfishness pure and simple. Ok, now play the fear card.

Sorry if I seem a bit upset. I say again get a divorce rather than have an A. But don't put the blame for your actions totally on the BS not hearing you. If you had an A that is something you alone chose to do.

jd

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jdmac1:
Sorry if I seem a bit upset. I say again get a divorce rather than have an A. But don't put the blame for your actions totally on the BS not hearing you. If you had an A that is something you alone chose to do.

jd<hr /></blockquote>everyone has their own story JD, i hear how you feel, but when a person is stripped of all control and power, there is not making a decision. there is no will, there is no proper judgment.

I agree that had i had an ounce of personal strength (well i probably wouldnt have allowed things to get so bad in the marriage) I would have gotten a divorce. but the truth is i didnt have the strength to speak loudly enough to order a darn hamburger at MC D's let alone a voice that would have led me to a lawyer.

but then people who have never given themselves away completly dont ever get that.

its not so much why they cheat, its why the marriage is in such a state that it doesnt seem to matter to the cheater.

isnt that really the point?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Neesha:
Chaz, I'm sorry that you have never read any of my threads as you would then perhaps not judge me as you are doing by this one thread. So, I will not defend what I said in the thread because it would be moot. Sorry you misunderstood me and what I was trying to convey, I guess I misunderstood your point in your thread that I responded too. Take Care<hr /></blockquote>neesha,

I am not completely without sympathy, I get that your in a completly terrible position.

Ive been disabled (Work accident that changed my life, was sure id walk right agian ever!) and ive felt abandoned.

you moved into a situation where there was no commitment (Marriage) and now your getting the shaft. I am very saddened by your predictament, my issue is that you seem to believe that you wernt there effecting the outcome.

if you want to try and have and outcome that is different you might try the priciples layed out here like maybe Plan A why not start a post that outlines your plan. the two post you have started while informative dont really explain what you intend to do to save your ??? relationship? infact they tend to lead me to believe that your just interested in where your gonna live now!

if you want to save the relationship this might be a great place to be, if not, i am not sure what help it will be.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />its not so much why they cheat, its why the marriage is in such a state that it doesnt seem to matter to the cheater.

isnt that really the point? <hr /></blockquote>Yes but why is it that the marriage always seems to be in such a state only to the cheater? Time and again it is the same, these affairs come out of the blue for the BS. Most have absolutely no idea that the marriage is bad enough that something like this could happen. If it is as you say, why is that?

I agree that some BS have blinders on and will forever refuse to remove them. But an A isn't the answer to removing them. Is it?

jd

My Personal Belief why my husband cheated:

Because he could. Because he spent 20+ years on the Musician circuit having women whenever he wanted. Because to this day, I don't think he thinks he has done anything wrong. So he repeats.

Because he is selfish and weak minded. Because I dissapointed him and didn't meet his most important emotional needs, so he EASILY and repeatedly had them met outside our marriage.

Gawd, this is painful.

[ December 18, 2002, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Chaz, Yes, I have been respectful and loving to WS, that did not work as he said he neither wanted to speak to me or look at me, I had to respect that but also set boundaries when he endangered my life, the pets and family members. He was already planning on moving out, so he moved out Nov. 30. He has been over 2 times to get things, and was distant, blaming, and disrespectful, I was not. So, I sent him email that kept him current with what mail he had of importance. He does not acknowledge any emails. So I then sent a plan B type letter stating what I have learned from this experience, how I have grown and that I understand my part of the demise of our relationship. I also stated that I loved him and should he choose that he needed and wanted me in his life, then he can reach out and I would be there if he was sincere in rebuilding something new but not what has been that lead to all this. My point to all this was simply this, in my previous threads, you can do all you can in trying to resolve issues but it takes 2 to work it thru, and I feel that my WS used this A to escape and not work it thru, we did the MB questionares a week before I caught him, and he knew what I wanted for "we" not just me. He chose a different route and I have to respect that but I do not have to let it consume me.

Well, at the risk of being flamed, unless someone has been in the cheater's shoes, it is impossible to TRULY understand what it's like.

I have been there, and I'm telling you that FOR ME, it was so out of my character, so against everything I believed, that I *still* cannot reconcile the fact that I did it! Witness the fact that once I slept with the idiot I wanted to die, never did it again, lost 100 pounds (with help from my then-H's revenge affairs that didn't help me too much), went directly into therapy, blah, blah, blah...

All I'm saying is that a BS can *try* to get into the WS's headspace (I know, because until I lowered myself to cheating as my then-H had, I thought I understood)... but you will never know the torment, the hell, the pain... that a repentant WS feels.

It's that way with a lot of life, isn't it?

Anyone want to talk about how it feels to be called to the school because your eight year old tried to hang himself? I bet not, because unless you've been there (I have) then you really can't understand. You can empathise, but, you can't know what I, as his mother, went through in my head and heart.

IMHO, all cheating is an act of selfishness.

The cause or root of the NEED to be selfish can vary widely.

I am convinced that the root of my XW's selfishness was the loss of our son and her struggle to deal with her pain. She sought the nearest port in a storm, but didn't consider me acceptable for reasons I can only attribute to her perception of my unavailability - for the same grieving reasons - or other attributes, unexplained to me, that took me off her list.

Once her pain was soothed, she continued her affair, divorced me, and married OM because she HAD to to "legitimize" the whole sordid situation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jdmac1:
Yes but why is it that the marriage always seems to be in such a state only to the cheater? Time and again it is the same, these affairs come out of the blue for the BS. Most have absolutely no idea that the marriage is bad enough that something like this could happen. If it is as you say, why is that? 

its not always that, the board if full of posters that this is not true for at all. many many are in misery together or quite honestly its the bs who is obviously miserable, and the ws is seemingly the one who is "Happy" but the condition of marriage is consistant. that and some people are simply incapable of being committedly married and keep it in their pants.

I agree that some BS have blinders on and will forever refuse to remove them. But an A isn't the answer to removing them. Is it?

jd

in some cases, it is seemingly the only thing that does provide the catalyst for removing the blinders... or we could take your advise and just divorce them right. but i dont take that as the objective of the board.

how would you like to see that advise given prior to to an affair. heck it causes stirs all over the board when someone reccomends it after the affair. nah i doubt that divorce is really what you or anyone here would reccommend to a troubled couple trying to avoid an Affair.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:<hr />in some cases, it is seemingly the only thing that does provide the catalyst for
removing the blinders... or we could take your advise and just divorce them right. but
i dont take that as the objective of the board.

how would you like to see that advise given prior to to an affair. heck it causes stirs all
over the board when someone reccomends it after the affair. nah i doubt that divorce
is really what you or anyone here would reccommend to a troubled couple trying to
avoid an Affair. <hr /></blockquote>Irrespective of whether divorce is an objective of this board, having, starting, or continuing an A is not an objective as well.

Not only would I like to see the advice given prior to an A, I would give it, and would have handled a divorce much better I think. I cannot say that I will ever
completely heal from the A's that touched my family.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />nah i doubt that divorce is really what you or anyone here would reccommend to a troubled couple trying to avoid an Affair. <hr /></blockquote>You are correct. I would not necessarily give that advice to a person or persons trying to avoid an affair. But I would give it freely to someone dead set on having an A. Do you see the difference?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You are correct. I would not necessarily give that advice to a person or persons trying to avoid an affair. But I would give it freely to someone dead set on having an A. Do you see the difference?
<hr /></blockquote>do you really believe thats how A's happen? that people set out to have them? and are committed to making one happen?

i guess there are those who do and dont care, and thats why i summarily dissmiss those who cant seem to keep it in their pants. but for the most part what i have seen in the brief time ive been here (YA RIGHT) its not generally that way.

i for one have seen the success stories here, and finally believe that I might just become one of them. (after 2 years my wife has started to look inward and discover things within herself after seeing first hand my personal growth she can no longer deny that its possible...YEEE HAWW) so i dont think i will ever from an external vantage point (violence aside) recommend divorce to anyone you see I VALUE MARRIAGE MORE THAN THAT.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I VALUE MARRIAGE MORE THAN THAT. <hr /></blockquote>Then perhaps you have truely grown from where you were.

jd

I am a ws. It is selfish.

Miserable in my marriage and don't have the guts to get out. In love with a man who has a wife and can't leave her without loosing everything he's worked for his entire life. He and i have maintained a relationship that allows us to be happy when we can be together.

It is not pretty. It's the way affairs work when two people decide to cheat.

hey JD nows your chance counsel away!

Wow Chaz. That reply dripped with sarcasm. Look I don't want to councel you or anyone else. I admit to not keeping up with your saga. It makes no difference in my stance. If you or anyone else is going to intentionally w***e around, then that person should divorce their spouse out of sheer compassion for the betrayed.

It makes no difference. The key word is cheater. To defend the action speaks volumes. There is no valid excuse. Get a divorce, or stop. Or continue on, but don't expect everyone to agree that because your spouse is bad, doesn't treat you well, ignores you, ect, that it is acceptabe or right. You are not forced to put up with intolerable actions from your spouse. You have an out. You do not have the right, nor are you morally correct to have an A, or it be justified, because of her actions or lack thereof.

What happened to the Chaz who used to debate SNL so well? You seem quite the different person.

jd

Why do people cheat?......Because they can.

anyways the devil is in the semantics, the question is biased by virtue of using a qualifier ie "cheat". A more appropriate question would be why do people enter relationships.... they do so for 2 healthy reasons, procreation primarily, and companionship secondarily, and one dysfunctional reason, various power, control issues and other sundry psychological dysfunctions. Marital status is irrelevant to either of the healthy drives (meaning marital status does not alter the drives, they still exist, and will be acted on). "Cheating" is also genetically and evolutionarily a sound reproductive strategy, which further confuses the issue. The real question seems more mundane, why do we treat each other the way we do. Reminds me a bit of the moral scenario about theft, immoral and unethical, but what does one do when the difference between life and death is "stealing" a loaf of bread? "cheating" is a survival issue, there are no rules which apply, much as we would like to think otherwise.

It feels good and safe to assign the lable cheating, and we should, it is not the best way to handle relationship conflict, ever. Likewise it would be good to exorcise vanity, greed, gluttony, lust, pride, and a host of other "evils" people inflict on each other as we try to control our circumstances, survive. Who knows, maybe someday we will.

[ December 18, 2002, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jdmac1:
 It makes no difference. The key word is cheater. To defend the action speaks volumes.

I hope you dont think in anyway what i have said here today in anyway defends the act of cheating. its not about that at all. what it is about is the lack of accountability from BS's who want only to strap the WS to the rack and not look at the marriage and into the future.

without change history will undoubtedly repeat or worse the marriage may fail altogether.

There is no valid excuse.

i dont argue that, not in the least. what i argue is the lack of introspection by BS's and Ws's for that matter.

Get a divorce, or stop. Or continue on, but don't expect everyone to agree that because your spouse is bad, doesn't treat you well, ignores you, ect, that it is acceptabe or right. You are not forced to put up with intolerable actions from your spouse. You have an out.

I would rather advise people how to find a way to fix their marriage, if the alternative for a "potential WS is Divorce" why would that be the case? is it impossible to change the marriage? is it impossible for the future BS to learn and adapt. it seems as though your reccomendation is to believe that the BS is incapable of change. and i cant believe thats what you mean.

You do not have the right, nor are you morally correct to have an A, or it be justified, because of her actions or lack thereof.

I dont disagree in my case it was a serious lack of self worth and a genuine belief that the marriage was a sham that made it "OK" in my mind. and that was the only place it was ok, and as i gained strenghth it wasnt even ok there anymore.

What happened to the Chaz who used to debate SNL so well? You seem quite the different person.

same guy same approach, i apply it equally to WS's and BS's alike you just dont appreciate when it's the BS.

jd[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>

Let's face it. In any marriage, at any given time, if one wants to cheat they will find an excuse, usually always blaming their S. No one is perfect, so therefore, no S can be perfect. Neither one! It's always the spouses fault according to the cheater. None seem to look at themselves as having changed and they do not make their spouse entirely happy either. It's a two way street! And it isn't solved by jumping into an A. Get the divorce first, then have your A!
And to the lady who is in love with the MM who can't leave due to losing all hes' worked for? how about the wife. She earned just as much as he even if she never worked outside the home. Where is it written that the man owns all the assets? BULLS---! As for you, go work on your marriage as hard as you're working on her H and maybe you'll learn how to be happy and make your H happy. When anyone uses the excuse they can't leave due to losing assets, they're saying you are not worth what I'd give up and they don't mean money! They have no intention of leaving their spouses. That's what they're not willing to give up. NAIVE is the word for those who swallow this line. You WS's are happy in the A only becaue there is no responsible to that relatioship. You're also stealing from your spouses. Every dime spent on your is robbing his spouse of her share. he should be taking her out to the places he takes you. Spend the money on her, the hotels and fun times. Then he'd be happier and she would be too.
Wake up please and go home and work on your own M. Leave others alone to work their's out. you'll end up with the same thing even if you divorce and marry. you know why? Because God will repay you in kind for your sin. Your damage to others. your hurtful, inconsideration of another human life and their feelings. WS's lie so they look good to you, But I can guarantee, they've failed as much as the spouse they blame if not worse! I say to all who don't want to be faithful. Get out and get a single person to ruin. And leave the married ones alone. There are plenty single out there. And don't remarry. Stay single so you can just screw around constantly. Because you will never last in a marriage for very long! When the reality comes, you'll once again be screwing around with someone else and hurting another spouse. Mad and don't mind who knows it. No sympathy for those who cry on OP shoulders making themselves look like saints who've been used. You will get what you deserve. If you're messing around with a M person, what makes you think they won't cheat on you when you become overly familar? And you will! There is no love there, it's all about new sex, excitement, then dump when you grow too familar. LOL Guess some deserve each other though.
My H fed all the same lines to OW until I caught them, Then he dumped her and asked for a chance to save M. He never had any intention of leaving me. Just game playing. LouLou

Cindy, you said you wanted to know what you did wrong to make H cheat. Stop that thinking right now. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG! There is no justification for cheating, nothing! It's a choice people make and do without any thought of who gets hurt. it's purely a selfish, immature, dirty choice. I don't care how many excuses the WS give as to why, there is no justification. The perceived problems in the marriage could not be solved by an A. They, or most, are intelligent enough to know it has to be brought to the surface,discussed, and counseling if need be to work the problems out. make changes in the M. Choosing and A if purely their way of doing what they wanted to do anyway and blame someone else.I can guarantee, if there is a problem in the M, it's both feeling it. Not just the one who runs out to have an A. Again, it's an excuse only to blame the spouse. They need to take a good hard look at themselves and find out why they have no moral values, or guts to stand up and talk to their spouse. An unhappy M is not going to be solved by jumping in bed with anyone else.And they know this! In fact, they have to know it's going to destroy what is left of cause serious damage. Sex is fleeting. Real love and maturity is lasting. Commitment is what counts. Basically, In my opinion, they want to cop out on life and responsibility. Live the single life again. But maintain their image of the Marriage at same time. Don't take any blame for yourself. You are not perfect, but then no one is and a real man should stand up, talk to his wife and discuss areas where they feel needs not met. And yours too! When a WS blames the S, it's called guilt transference! Just ask any counselor. Good luck and sorry your so hurting. LouLou

Chaz,

Do you remember posting this? I agree with P. As well as others. Do you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />posted August 06, 2001 01:54 PM

i actually wrote this months ago, found it searching for another post. i think most of it applies still.

Lessons learned by a WS

a. don’t believe that they(bs) won’t care

b. be honest really honest

c. give them(bs) a chance to be responsive if you don’t tell them they wont know

d. don’t think they(bs) heard you just because you feel like you were screaming it from the rooftops. say it again louder, in a different language until they say it back they didn’t hear you.

e. if they aren’t responsive give it more time, if more time doesnt work give them more time, but if it is over, leave them first then meet your needs

f. do not be afraid of conflict, dealing with conflict is what makes it work not avoiding it.

g. be honorable, who will want you if you cant be trusted

h. do not be ashamed of your needs and wants

i. let your spouse try to change, accept what they are willing to give as genuine until proven otherwise.

j. allow your spouse to be angry about your choice they deserve to be.

k. accept that your spouse isn’t the only one who failed the marriage

l. be sorry for what happened. really sorry

m. let your spouse try

n. don’t forget the pain you’ve caused

o. don’t forget the pain that made having an A ok in your head, make sure to protect against it. hold true to your needs don’t let guilt wash away the failure of you marriage.

p. apologize to your spouse for your choice, no reason why it happened no buts, just apologize.

q. ask your spouse how you can meet their needs.

r. open your life completely. no secrets, share all activities and passwords. you did
something that caused you to be suspect. do everything you can to be transparent and predictable so that your spouse can begin to trust you again.

s. did I mention open up your life be completely transparent answer all questions about where you were and what you were doing non-defensively you don’t deserve trust yet
earn it by being truthful and open.

t. never compare your spouse to OP hold them accountable for meeting your need, but know that everyone has their own style love the effort

u. hold your spouse, just hold them tell them you love them

v. be thankful your property isn’t in the driveway

w. tell your spouse what you need from them be honest, don’t hide from them what they need to know in order to decide to act.

x. act on what they tell you they need, don’t expect that they are the ones who have to work on this.

y. be polite act loving even when you don’t feel that way.

z. be honest, be open, tell them what you need, set boundaries and listen to them make sure you are working hard to meet their needs too. don’t forget how bad it’s been struggle hard not to be here ever again.

thanks

------------------
in loving service
chaz <hr /></blockquote>

absolutly!!

read D. And O. Again!

they are important!

Hi Zoey,

I only read a few of the other responses, so forgive me if I'm repetitive. My husband had an affair with a much younger woman, and I have been dealing with this since September of 1999. We have had joint and individual counseling, counseled with Steve Harley, Marriage Built, etc. I say all this so you will sort of understand where I am and also to explain that I am not "new" at this or speaking from some place on the edge of this situation.

As the betrayed spouse, I had to do a lot of work to forgive, recommit to the marriage, and try, really TRY, to understand what happened, why it happened, and how to avoid it again. After more than three years, many thousuands of hours of work, MANY thousands of dollars, and literally BILLIONS of tears, I have to say this about why a person cheats:

I DO NOT KNOW.

I can tell you the reasons that my husband cheated, at least the reasons he and the many counselor's we've seen SAY that he did it. With many factors at play (nearing 50, about to be empty nesters, death of his mother, passed over for promotion at work for job given to younger man, wife receiving a lot of attention and recognition for local community project, etc.), he was suffering from depression. Add to that a SERIOUS case of KISAS (Knight-In-Shining-Armor-Syndrome) aggravated by an increasingly independent wife and daughter, and a woman with three young children who WANTED to be "saved", and it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

You wrote that "My hole I was in was so dark that when that person came along, I was so desperate for a tiny ray of light that I took it when it came. I was so lost emotionally and mentally I lost all sense of right and wrong. I was dead basically."

My husband has said almost those exact words, and THAT I can understand. I have been depressed, and that IS how it feels.

But to be honest, I have NEVER seen even one problem in a marriage that was helped by an affair. As I have said before, I believe an affair is a completely irrational response to a situation that it cannot possibly help, often committed by a person whose mental judgement is seriously impaired by something, as in my husband's case depression. I think it is very similar to the feelings a person experiences when considering suicide, a desperate need to do something to end the emotional pain.

So you see, I have given this a lot of time and effort, and I speak to you from absolutely personal experience. Yet I still have to say that I do not know how or why a person would cheat on their spouse, and I hope I never do know that. I don't think any faithful spouse really understands it, and there are lots of unfaithful ones that don't either! It took a long time for me to be able to believe my husband when he said he didn't know why it happened. Now he says that it was like being trapped in a nightmare and being pulled deeper and deeper into the black hole of it. He also says that everytime he thinks of it, it is like a black veil drops over him and it makes him feel so horrible.

We were not the perfect couple (though lots of people thought/think so) and we both made mistakes in our relationship (nothing else as bad as this of course). I accept my responsibility for the weaknesses in our marriage, and I have often made my husband's life miserable since dday. I've apologized and atoned as best I can. My husband has assured me (still does regularly) that his choice to cheat had nothing to do with me, and I believe that to be true. We have pretty much done recovery "right" and are on the way to spending the rest of our lives together.

But I still don't know why it happened. There is no logic, no explanation, no excuse good enough.

But it DID happen, and acceptance was the really hard part for me. And it does matter WHY it happened, and I listen and understand all the explanations. It's my heart that just doesn't get it, and it never will.

Thanks for the discussion. I hope I have time to read it all. I did notice that lots of people said selfishness. I think that is what ALLOWS affairs to happen, but I don't think that is the real cause of them. The causes are probably as varied as the cheaters themselves.

Thanks again,

Peppermint

re the list posted above, what was it's original context? It sounds great for someone who wants to reconcille, but makes no sense for someone who does not want to remain married.

For example I have noticed one common affair scenario is someone reaching out of a very abusive marriage and entering an affair. Quite often this person has no desire whatsoever to remain in the marriage (and rightly so). Although they should have just "left" in the first place, were not strong enough to overcome the well-documented programming that occurs in such dysfunctional marriages, and "chose" (not realy, affairs are rarely choices, they are instinctual behaviour) a relationship with someone else (psychological survival). Many people are in such relationships (there are lots and lots of really screwed up people in this world who manage to attract a mate) and want nothing more than escape from the hell their life has become. It is very unlikely they are gonna care at all about the "injury" to the abusers emotional well-being, or attempt to repair anything. The only reason the "affair" is wrong in these circumstances is because of whatever effect it has on the ws. The BS will recieve no consideration, nor do they deserve any, you reap what you sow, and to one degree or another an affair is as much a marital failure (meaning the bs is a part of it) as it is an individual failure (of the ws), and what I see in the various opinions about this subject is a focus on which part was more significant, the marital failure or the individual failure. In an abusive marriage the affair is primarily the "fault" of the bs, as the ws desperately tries to survive. In a typical neglectful (married living singly syndrome, where avoidance, and both getting en's met elsewhere is the circumstance) it is an equal failure of both bs and ws more or less. In a marriage where the bs is doing pretty much all the right stuff, little love busing, pulling their weight, etc. but isn't omniscient, the affair is primarily a ws failure.

Understanding the why's of an affair (or why we do anything for that matter, including why do we lovebust for example) is important. It makes sense you cannot go forward and have a safe marriage without understanding why the marriage failed in the first place, which is necessay to actually make a competent decision to continue in it (both bs and ws need to do this). As for the selfishness label, don't know, seems we are all selfish, doesn't the bs just as selfishly try to keep the marriage going? Maybe what is meant is there is "good" selfishness, and "bad" selfishness, and naturally we all think our own selfishness is the good kind I suspect. The answer does not lie in selfishness peppermint, and the reasons an affair occured in your marriage are knowable, you probably allready know (judging by the effort you made) and do not like the answer.

It is interesting that I have seen a couple of posts recently which seem to indicate that people who cheat are looking for a parent figure.

Chazbutler said <blockquote>quote:<hr />had it been your child, would you have done it the same way?<hr /></blockquote>When I suspected that my H might be depressed, I encouraged him to go to a doctor. I talked to him about it - put I couldn't force him to do anything. He did, in fact, go to the doctor, but talked only about some physical issues.

Katie Scarlett said something about treating your spouse as if he were your child, albeit your 20 year old child. But he is NOT my child. I would not want to be treated like a child - that is the height of disrespect.

I believe that the majority of affairs are the result of depression, depression that is often triggered by major life events or tragedy, but is often also linked to the relationship of the cheater to his parent.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie1:
[QB]It is interesting that I have seen a couple of posts recently which seem to indicate that people who cheat are looking for a parent figure.

Chazbutler said <blockquote>quote:<hr />had it been your child, would you have done it the same way?<hr /></blockquote>When I suspected that my H might be depressed, I encouraged him to go to a doctor. I talked to him about it - put I couldn't force him to do anything. He did, in fact, go to the doctor, but talked only about some physical issues.
QB]<hr /></blockquote>its not parental to take action when someone you love is in dispare, or "disinigrating".

its difficult to hear time and again how this happened out of nowhere, how the A completely caught me off guard, Could have knocked me over with a feather... etc. over and over i see how things were fine for me but my WS never said anything about how sad, unhappy, or whatever the condition is to the BS. especially when in the very next paragraph they will admit they saw it in them but did nothing or little to change what existed in the Marriage.

if you love someone you dont watch as they self destruct, you take action you intervene you turn your world upside down to help them. watching as it happens is like seeing smoke and not checking to see if there is a FIRE!! you dont get to say after the building has burned down, oh i saw the smoke but it didnt really bother me so i didnt do anything about it.

dont for a moment think that I believe that any of this is a "Reason" or an Excuse for having an Affair, i dont. the choice and reasons for having an affair all reside within the person who chooses to have one. that however doesnt change in the very least whats happened in the MARRIAGE!

just because someone makes the worst mistake in a marriage doesnt give the BS a FREE PASS on their behavior and participation in the marriage.

not for the past and certainly not for the future.

I think you can also look at a number of sociological factors:

Right now, there are more women in U.S. than men. Therefore, from a male's perspective it's a "buyer's market" - there are essentially, many women looking for relationships...and not enough men to go around. With 'more men' available (this phenomena started in western countries in the early 1900's) women were no longer being held to "traditional" feminine values - ergo - the so-called sexual revolution....which....if you choose to sum it up this way goes something like this: "now you girls can have non-marriage related sex just like us and we won't punish you for it....because it's in our best interest that you do.?

Also, there is a lot more importance on marriage as the MAIN source of emotional, sexual and financial support than in the past. What does this mean. If you look at the history of the family, (I'm talking historically - in the sense of written history - 500 b.c. forward) in the past a marriage was a means to financial support only; mortality was high so spouses only spent about 10 years together, peer groups provided emotional support; sexual mores were quite different. Around the late 1800's the idea of "romantic love" became popular. Since the mid 1900's this idea of romance changed many societies so that now marriage is seen as the MAIN source of support for all three factors: emotional, financial and sexual. This is a lot of pressure for one institution. When reality does not meet the high expectations we now set for marriage, the marriage is seen to have "failed" and the 'wounded' partner(s) start looking elsewhere.
Many people think that divorce and adultery are due to people perceiving the institution of marriage as having little value. I think it's because the institution is actually perceived as having such profound value.

LLL

Quote:if you love someone you dont watch as they self destruct, you take action you intervene you turn your world upside down to help them. watching as it happens is like seeing smoke and not checking to see if there is a FIRE!! you dont get to say after the building has burned down, oh i saw the smoke but it didnt really bother me so i didnt do anything about it

Sometimes it is what you have to do, if someone is on a path of self destruction and you try to do everything and anything you can to stray the course for that person, it sometimes and often does fall on deaf ears. It can only be changed when that person decides to seek the help they need or communicate or whatever is needed to get them back on track for themselves. Sometimes it does take that person going to the lowest depths of their inner selves. Yes it's gut wrenching to watch and at the same time you are hurting for them as you are hurting for yourself. We all have the ability to search ourselves but sometimes due to mental, emotional, or any combination of issues, that have been posted on this thread some can not or refuse to until they hit rock bottom.
Does not make the BS guilty of neglect or not coming to terms with what they could have done differently. Does not make the WS's behavior any easier to come to terms with as it is for the BS to "what if", should of, could of" Somethings are not in our control on all issues surrounding an A. Everyone here has validity to what they feel is the reasons, but it is based also on their own person knowledge, and intimacy being involved in one as the BS or the WS. I hope that makes sense to some people here as I do not want to get into anymore slash attacks or semantics bashing. Just because someone can see things straying from the relationship does not mean they can change the course of where it's going, they can do the best they can do, and hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. But as I can only deal with my emotional make-up of understanding, coping, compromising, and capacity to stay mentally strong when faced with traumatic issues, I can not even Persume that I can have control over someone else's unless they lend a hand in helping me and have the awareness to identify that in themselves for the relationship to be brought back to the forefront of importance. Sorry so long.

neesha,

I dont disagree that one can only do what one can do.

my issue is with people who seemingly want it both ways.

you cant say. "i didnt know", and "i saw it coming."

thats what kills me.

Qoute: you cant say. "i didnt know", and "i saw it coming."

Yes, I think you can, because when you see someone floundering with their daily life coping skills, and they refuse to listen or identify any of the existing problems surrounding them or their perceptions of it, then you might have thoughts such as "I would not put anything past him/her in this state he/she is in right now. But on the other hand as they have never shown any signs of straying or even suggested that was in their mind, when it happens you really "Did not know" for that time.

It sometimes appears other than what is really happening at the time. If some one as I stated in the previous post is sub-consciously sabatoging themselves, and you add lack of recognition or will to cope then "anything is up for grabs as far as what they will do to themselves". The ones that are closest to them (spouse) will become the target of anger and blame for their unwillingness to delve into themselves, as unfair as that is, it is a self- destructive motive to alienate the one person who knows you at your best, worst and everything in between. You do not want the S directing any resolutions for a healthy M when it is not in the person's realm of thinking on those lines. Escapism in any form is destructive even no matter if it's premeditated or has not even surface in the consciousness of the individual going thru it. So considering this post you can see it coming or at least something coming, but when it's an A it does throw you a curve because you have been dealing with someone who has not been coping with any real life issues and barely is functioning in job, school, home, and is neglecting to confront that, immerses themselves into another situation that is being an all consuming behavior that is also unhealthy. Does that make sense?

Neesha,

here is the basic concept.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jdmac1:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />its not so much why they cheat, its why the marriage is in such a state that it doesnt seem to matter to the cheater.

isnt that really the point? <hr /></blockquote>Yes but why is it that the marriage always seems to be in such a state only to the cheater? Time and again it is the same, these affairs come out of the blue for the BS. Most have absolutely no idea that the marriage is bad enough that something like this could happen. If it is as you say, why is that?

I agree that some BS have blinders on and will forever refuse to remove them. But an A isn't the answer to removing them. Is it?

jd<hr /></blockquote>you cant have blinders on and then say i didnt know followed up with i saw it coming and then there was nothing i could do.

if your spouse is telling you there are problems with the marriage, and your happy with the way it is and change nothing or so little that its insulting and your marriage fails to the point that a weakened or emotionally distressed person chooses to exit it or have an Affair because it doesnt matter anyway, you dont get to have the luxury of saying I DIDNT KNOW.

also if your abusive and the person your abusing is self destructing and your too self absorbed to take any of the credit again you loose the right to say there was nothing i could have done.

when someone is in ultimate control and the object of that control states the obvious its easily dismissed by the controller because it has no effect on them so what if the other person isnt happy, i am so they should be too.

it often isnt that the future WS hasnt cryed out for help, or stated what is needed, quite the opposite, no one was willing to hear.

not every time, but often enough for it to be half or maybe even just alot of the time.

the words I never knew are very often very very often code words for I was too busy to hear what was being asked of me.

does that make it ok for someone to have and A? nope, does that make it ok for a BS to absolve themselves for the condition of the marriage....

you tell me Id say no.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you cant have blinders on and then say i didnt know followed up with i saw it coming and then there was nothing i could do. <hr /></blockquote>Chaz I understand what you are trying to say. The problem is that not all affairs happen for the same reasons. The above statement cannot be used for every instance of infedility. Surely you do not believe that every BS has blinders on?

I ask you, what is a spouse supposed to do? They cannot force these WS to seek assistance for depression, nor any other problem. When people tell you they tried to get help for their WS, if that person refuses to get help what can they do? Obviously where assistance, via counsiling or whatever, is needed, it has to be a choice of the person needing the help. All you or I or anyone else can do is try. The decision is not ours to make.

I want to make this clear. I do not feel I was blind to my wifes needs. She would likely tell you I was. But I think not. My wife never hinted that we were in any kind of major trouble until after her first affair. Sure we had problems just like everyone. But the affairs totally caught me by surprise.

This is why I tend to be offended by negative statements toward BSes. But, I don't disagree that there are couples with situations such as yours was. Even still, an A was not the answer.

jd

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jdmac1:
 This is why I tend to be offended by negative statements toward BSes. But, I don't disagree that there are couples with situations such as yours was. Even still, an A was not the answer.

jd<hr /></blockquote>i was very carful to say not every, and careful to say that an A isnt the aswer i dont believe either is the case.

would you agree that the effort you have put toward repairing your marriage after the Affair would have been significantly better spent before it happened?

assuming you will say yes, why wasnt it as important then?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />would you agree that the effort you have put toward repairing your marriage after the Affair would have been significantly better spent before it happened?

assuming you will say yes, why wasnt it as important then? <hr /></blockquote>I believe that the effort could have helped prevent want occurred. My WS says it would have. I cannot second guess that now.

Chaz I wouldn't say it was unimportant then. All I can tell you is that I was happy in my marriage. I thought my wife was. With perhaps a few exceptions. I obviously never dreamed things were bad enough for an A to happen. I still do not believe things were that bad. I still believe that if they were so bad I should have been divorced by her.

I loved my wife then, I love her now. I made mistakes then, I make mistakes now. You know what? She made mistakes then in the marriage, and she makes them now. The mistakes on both our parts may not be the same as they were then, some of them might be. The question is have the both of us grown enough to realize that stepping outside the marriage for comfort is not the answer to fix any of our problems?

If that lesson has not been learned I want a divorce, period. I honestly tell you I would rather die than to go through that pain again. That my friend is real.

jd

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jdmac1:
 If that lesson has not been learned I want a divorce, period. I honestly tell you I would rather die than to go through that pain again. That my friend is real.

jd<hr /></blockquote>i will agree with that, all the way to the core.

i will never allow myself to be the way i was before, nor would i be interested in a the marriage i had before either.

i think knowing now what my wife and i know, i know she wouldnt either.

Seems a very common aspect of this is SELFISHNESS. Pure and simple. No regard or respect for your spouse, just want you think you want for the moment and it grows from there. Selfish in that they don't care about consequences, family, reputation or their future, except for some fantasy future with the OP. The devistation that they leave is almost beyond description...of course, when I said that to my WH, he told me that this was NOT the most devistating thing that could have happened in my life, I was making WAY to much of it......yeah, right. SELFISH sums it up.

From Neesha: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> if someone is on a path of self destruction and you try to do everything and anything you can to stray the course for that person, it sometimes and often does fall on deaf ears. It can only be changed when that person decides to seek the help they need or communicate or whatever is needed to get them back on track for themselves. Sometimes it does take that person going to the lowest depths of their inner selves. <hr /></blockquote>I certainly sensed that my H was on self-destruct, and headed for some kind of disaster. I spent years trying to help him work out what he was about - I got books on depression, on father-son relationships, I dragged him to counselling. I was in a permanent state of tension that he was going to do something that would really screw us up. I worried about financial indiscretions, addictions, illegality - no concrete sign, just a sense of risk-taking behaviour. The one thing I didn't predict for a minute was infidelity. But what he was doing was finding a series of other women to get sympathy and support for his view of himself as a misunderstood wage-slave, for which he could blame me. He didn't want to face up to his own failures and limitations, and he knew that that was what I would make him do, so he escaped into a world where a lover would say all the right things, and demand little of him. Ironically, it's the last OW who seems to have made him confront himself - even more ironically, in an effort to make him hers and get him to leave me. It was her ruthlessness that finally brought him to his knees and made him tell me. Perhaps, subconsciously, he chose her for that very quality.

Ultimately, only the cheater can sort himself / herself out, and this takes a lot of personal courage. Yet cheating, by definition, implies a lack of courage. So, unfair though it is, the BS has to provide safe conditions for the WS to expose their frailties and explore themselves. And the risk exists that the 'real' WS that is uncovered may not be what the BS wants or needs. Facing up to that takes courage from the BS too.

[ December 20, 2002, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: TogetherAlone ]

Zoey-

They do it because they are hypocrites.
They do it because they are dishonest.
They do it because they think its exciting
They do it because they are ego-maniacs
They do it because they were at the altar and ignored..."I promise my love an fidelity"
They do it because they are cruel
They do it because of a chemical imbalance

When they get caught up in it and fall in love, then they say "See this affair was right" "It was meant to be" "We are soul mates" "I must not love my spouse if I feel like this for OP"

IT MAKES ME SICK

!

Just because someone notices that their spouse is not himself, doesn't mean that they have any idea that the spouse is "self-destructing" or that the marriage is in danger. The BS's can not be expected to read their spouses' minds! In many cases, the WS has NOT given any indication that they perceived that anything was wrong with the marriage. Around the time his affair began, I specifically asked him such a question, and he insisted that there was not. After he left, he said that he had tried to hide his feelings. He has never once claimed that he made any attempt to communicate any disastisfaction to me - and I think that is very typical, especially among male WS's.

We are not talking about spouses who threaten suicide or become alcoholics or drug addicts or who stop going to work - generally the signs are far more subtle, and unless you happen to be a psychiatrist as well as a spouse, it is completely unreasonable for anyone to expect the BS to recognize the signs, except in retrospect, much less actually be able to do anything about it.

[ December 20, 2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]

rlyhurtin, I agree 100%. that's it in a nutshell. selfish, self centered, feeling they are the only ones bored with the marriage or sex life. Somehow they have this attitude that they still are the King of the HIll and we're the ones who've lost it.
If they put as much into the marriage relationship as they put into these dirty A's, they'd still be married and happy! Most A's end when reality sets in. Even if they go off and marry these people, it turns sour eventually. Because they still have themselves with them and can't learn how to make others happy. they only think of themselves! when the thrill of newness dies out, they're off and running again. leaving anoter person hurt in their wake. I would never trust a married man who wanted to cheat with me and was telling me how unhappy he is and bashing the spouse. I like what Dr. Phil says. if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you. Those A's who wind up together really deserve each other. Then we have two people who couldn't care less about commitment. LOL And they an torture each other! LouLou

Can someone explain to me why posts like these exist? And "stupid things WS's say" etc. etc. etc.

Its like asking someone why the sky is blue or why birds fly -- nobody but the actual person involved is going to have the answer.

All we have here is a bunch of BS's spouting disrespectful judgements of all WS's.

So how about if all the WS's on the board band together and have a post or two -- maybe "why are BS's so emotional?" or "most demanding thing your BS said to you" Then we could all join in and assasinate the characters of BS's in general.

Merry Christmas everyone.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lexxxy:
Can someone explain to me why posts like these exist? And "stupid things WS's say" etc. etc. etc.

Its like asking someone why the sky is blue or why birds fly -- nobody but the actual person involved is going to have the answer.

All we have here is a bunch of BS's spouting disrespectful judgements of all WS's.

So how about if all the WS's on the board band together and have a post or two -- maybe "why are BS's so emotional?" or "most demanding thing your BS said to you" Then we could all join in and assasinate the characters of BS's in general.

Merry Christmas everyone.<hr /></blockquote>Guilty as charged. Very sorry Lexxx. Thanks for reminding us.

Lv,
Jo

actually Lexxxy... my reply wasn't flip... wasn't berating WS... but the actual words of my own FWH...

btw THIS WAS A WS POST...the question was posed by a FWS...

I also think it was fairly obvious that those who are 'recent' BSs answered w/ pain and anger... and those of us farther along were pretty introspective...

Why did it get under YOUR skin?

Happy Holidays...

Cali

[ December 23, 2002, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Cali ]

i cant tell you why other people do it....i can tell you why i did it...or what i thought was the reason at the time....it had nothing to do with not getting caught....i wish i would have.....my H and i went from seeing each other every day to being lucky to see each other once a week.....it had been almost a year since he had said he loved me....not because he didnt love me....but because he thought i knew.....there was no sex life.....and no affection......i know personally i would give anything to take it back......because to be totally honest.....now i cant think of a single reason why i did it....

Reading this agian after wrapping last minute presents so I apologise in advance for skimming through many of the posts.

I have thought about the "WHY" of the affair. I remember how it was last christmas. I knew that things were not all right in paradise. But you know we are all human. When you have tried and it doesn't improve the marriage and he has tried and it doesn't improve the marriage. It saps your energy and hope and drains your reserves to be loving toward each other and nurturing of the marriage.

After the A and D-weeks--devastation weeks,we, by the grace of god, went into couselling and there we picked up tools and we are still trying hard to hone our skills at marriage building. I don't think it wasn't that we didn't make efforts to show each other we cared for each other, it was like we were two wounded animals wary of each other. Trust that we could make each other feel better dwindled. Communication dried up.

So yes I think it is very possible to know something is wrong with your marriage and that your spouse is in a deep black hole and still not see that an A is in the offing. WHY? because we can only think and act like US not anyone else in a given situation. Who knows what pressures are in play here? H's family may have had a history of A's, mine too but as they were handled differently, we learnt different lessons from what would be essentially the same situations. We are the sum of our experiences. Like peppermint I don't think I will ever "know" why, neither does my H. We can come close but when in a deep pain-numbing depression and fog (both of us) can we tell why we chose to make a right turn instead of left or change lanes and still head toward the same place or even know where in heck we were heading?>>

Why do we now put in so much more effort in nurturing and protecting our marriage?

I really don't think we put in MORE effort, it is like our energies are now directed and focused by the lessons we have learnt through our experiences. Unfortunately, that includes the A.
Also, and most importantly to us we discovered that we were the most important to us. Does that make sense? WE learned about boundaries and we learned how to turn each other on. Learned that we were family and to quote a line from our child's favourite film:
Family means no one gets left behind or forgotten.

We have learned and the pain of experience is excruciating. We are still learning and hope to learn some more. We will make mistakes and we will make up or try to...we have to ... the alternative is just too painful/shattering/dehumanising to contemplate. Some days are diamonds and some are lemons.

ok I'll stop now. The cliches are getting to me.

Have a happy peaceful holiday.

Well, they can give you a ton of reasons, but none are justifiable. An A is never justified no matter what one thinks. And I read all the excuses they give and how they say didn't mean it to happen, and how much they love the BS and want to work it out. But can we believe any of it now?
I mean all the same words were there prior to, the I love you's, together until the end of time, etc. Then you find out all the time they were saying these things they were having an A behind your back. So now when I hear sorry, and regret Because i'd heard it all before. They cheat because they think it's going to be fun, new thrill, new sex, and no one can convince me mine didn't start out knowing it would be PA. That was his whole agenda to start with. Saying he had always wanted to sleep with her since HIgh school 43 yrs ago! So how do I feel knowing he had thought of her all these yrs we're together? Married 29 when it happened. Now he says he didn't think of her at all all those years, Just became unhappy and remembered her and looked her up. She's married too. Even wrote each other that one day they'd be free and marry each other.Now he denies those words. tore up the emails so I can't show them to him again. But the plans were there. So, how do we believe anything said now about being commmited? I don't, nor will I ever blindly trust again. I will always be snooping and watching closely. Someone may say not right. Well, my pain was not right either or deserved. So I say if you cheat, expect to be watched all the time for signs. My WH told me I had to trust him now. LOL yeah, right honey. Like I would trust a viper in a baby's crib.
We'll never know why they cheat.Because they can never give a good enough excuse. If they put as much effort into blowing smoke up S's butt as they do the Other people's, the marriage might have been much better off. All A's involve lying to the Other people as well. All WS's are in a pretend mode, and the OP never see the real them. I can guarantee it! So it's the WS's way of game playing to get others to flatter them and berate the BS's. I can guarantee he never bashed the OW, or she the OM. Never showed them how they prefer to sit in front of TV 12 hours a day and let you wait on them. The OP never had to do the dirty laundry, take out the trash, pick up after the pets, pay the bills or take care of family problems on a daily basis. It looked so good because all they do is flatter each other, go out to eat, stay at nice places, and sleep together. Now let me ask you? How many of us BS's could be the total siren if all we had to do is have sex and have fun? No responsibities at all other than fun. To the WS's. The other person never did a damned thing for you that showed love. All they did is take from you! Treat them the way you do your S and see how long your great love last! Start lying more to them and see how they like you then. Treat your spouse like you do the other people you're cheating with and see how wonderful your spouse becomes. How happy and upbeat they'll be when you're just making them think they're the whole world to you. Oh by the way. Please let the OW do your dirty underwear and the chores your S does. Tell them you can't possibly expect your S to do these things while you're sleeping with them. Let the OW/OM do all the things you expect of S,so you can just go home to screw and have fun with S. Hey, you might even ask the OP to baby sit while you take wife on a romantic trip or night out. LOL Turn this around and see if the S doesn't become the better person! LouLou
P.S. I threw all my H clothes out rather than wash them after his being with her. I did not want her dirt in my machine. Even the shoes he wore! Clothes he bought to wear with her too. I don't let him disrespect me that way when I know!I say he should have had her do his laundry somewhere before coming home from his nice vacation with her in Florida! I think he thought her too good to ask to do chores. LOL So am I now!
You want the cake and eat it too, then let the sluts and jerks do the dirty work too.

Lexxy-

Typical WS comments. No one said BS's are perfect. At least I didn't read anywhere they were. I am not, not by a long stretch.

All I know is that my "Needs" were far and let me repeat this FAR from being met and for heavens sake...I still had enough self pride, enough gumption to use that as an exuse to hurt someone for not batting 1000 on meeting all of my needs.

Well, this is just my own personal story....I am a survivor of childhood sexual, physical and emotional abuse...i have a lot of trust issues...and a lot of relationship issues...and a lot of memories and flashbacks...and fear...and cheating was my way of running from the fear...of running from the intimacy...and all it ended up doing for me was making things even harder...i am finally ready to face those demons...and h is not there anymore...gave up on me when i needed him the most....because i cheated....i made my bed...now i have to lay in it...no...i know that what i went through as a child does not justify it...but more people need to understand where people like me are coming from...the repressed memories that suddenly start coming back for no reason...the fear...the confusion...all of it...i have lived in a hell others created for me my whole life...now i live in the hell i created for myself...

Lonliness.

I was too.

Why did he cheat and not me?

Opportunity.

Lexxxy, you have no justification for an A. not you, not any other WS. Got it? If you were that unhappy then why not divorce then go screw around? Or is it that all WS's want their cake and eat it too? Give the BS a chance to find happiness as well without having to cheat also. No EXCuse is good enough to be unfaithful. One either works on the problem within the marriage or get out! WS's choose their paths. So if they get flack afterward, they earned it in my opinion. Usually they want somebody to whine on and say it's ok you did this. But not me. The damage done to the BS is way beyond belief. A very selfish, selfcentered thing for WS to do. If they can't keep their pants, panties on when not with spouse, then get the hell out I say. Becasue the BS had to do without sex a lot while staying faithful. In most cases and even if not, which I didn't, I prefer to know whose body I'm sharing. That is everyones right. Seems the WS's always think the other person is so clean and nice. HA> Well, a few BS have had to deal with STD's because of the WS lying and carelessness. Now you know why many WS's get bashed? They earned it by inflicting enormous pain and damage on an uninformed person. Isn't it all about consent? It is with me and I have a right to decide if I want my body shared with someone else and all their partners! WE HAVE RIGHTS. We aren not the property of WS's to damage and maim. We are human beings, with feelings, pain and rights too. If the Ws wants to cheat, stand up and quit lying, deceiving and sneaking around. Take your lumps and be up front so you can pay the price instead of the BS. GRRRRRRR thanks for allowing me to vent. I know I speak for many here. LouLou

This is for me a very interesting thread and you have all given some very interesting insights.One of the oldest lines in the book is "my wife doesnt understand me "

I CAN SEE FROM YOUR POSTS THAT THE WIVES UNDERSTAND ONLY TOO WELL.

Reasons from my experience are:-

1.The cultural environment ie. the commercialization of sex which trivialises the whole experience.
As my ow wrote to me it JUST a LITTLE something extra.Also the fact that infidelity is treated as a joke. she had printed off a very laboured and unfunny joke about Jesse Jackson's infidelity to give to my h.
The womens movement which says if it feels nice do it and confuses taking freedom with taking liberties.
2 POWER it is about winners and losers. To my mind once you start to play these games you immediately become a loser.

3 PERFECTION the search for aperfect situation which does not exist .

4 ANGER towards the s who is less than perfect and to the world for not placing the ws at its centre

5.ESCAPE from all responsibility.

AMEN to LadyLou & H20

Why Do People CHEAT. Your personal thoughts please.

A WS shares their personal thoughts. Then they are jumped on and told, that's NOT a reason, that's NOT justifiable. How do you know? Right or wrong it is THEIR reason for doing so, irregardless of whether or not you think it's a good reason. The WS made a choice, their choice. Today that WS may not feel the same way. The fact is, is that it happened and nothing is going to change the past. Affairs are secretive for a reason. So although it would be nice if the WS would get out of the marriage first, THIS is just not going to happen. That's what makes it an affair.

Try to learn from it and be open without condeming the ones who have enough guts to post and share what they were feeling. Try to remember that it is THEIR feelings they are sharing. Just because you don't agree or like what they are saying doesn't mean that they didn't feel that way.

Unfortunately, affairs are going to be around for ever and ever. Yes affairs are wrong but that doesn't mean they are not going to happen.

Although, I don't agree with affairs I CAN understand why they happen. I have learned.

Patient1: Because someone posted asking why BS's were always knocking the WS's? Could that be why so many vent? Could that be why we find the WS's excuses lame? Duh! You bet. A WS will find any excuse that comes along to cheat. Fact!
Doesn't even have to be a legitimate complaint because they'll make one up, create one, stir up an argument or anything that can be done to then say, "Oh YOu made me do this"! Are they legitimate feelings? Sure they are just like us BS's have feelings too. The day I hear a legitimate excuse for an A, it will be when someone shows me a picture of a gun being held to their head. That one I might buy. Maybe!And if the WS thought about meeting the BS's EN"s as much as they think of their own and the OP's, then it might not happen to begin with. You suppose? The excuses WS's use are usually lies about the BS. Ask some of the other WS's and they'll tell you they lied up one side and down the other to get in bed with the OP. Made their S look like crap.My H even told the OW that I was a stay at home mom and had never worked. LOL Gee, somebody should have told me that before I put in 34 yrs on jobs. Wish they had! somebody should have told me before I spent 7 days a week working years ago in Real Estate, while going to college to get my brokers and taking care of a young son. he made me look like an idiot who couldn't exist outside the 4 walls. And a mentally challeged person. Oh boy, Did she ever fall for a bunch of crap. I guess I made him unhappy by asking for love making more than once every two months or so. I was starving for love while he abused me emotionally and verbally. yep, I should have had the A. but I'm better than that! I have a savior to answer to. And he comes first! LouLou

Lou-Lou-

You are the best! I love ya! Your insights are REAL.

No Ws's are not sub-human. We love our WS's we understand the extreme human-ness of it all. We even understand something else...Our needs were far from being met and we didn't stray. Its amazing how WS's think they have "still got it" and we don't "got it" anymore.

Makes you want to put their therory to the test doesn't. LOL

It's been interesting reading this thread, thanks for starting it.

I was the WS, but now of course I'm full of remorse and am painfully full of deepest regrets for the pain I inflicted on so many, but mainly my husband (now ex) and children.

Worthatry said the main reason for cheating was selfishness, and the need that was behind that person's selfishness was individual--but still selfishness. (I'm paraphrasing, I hope I've got it right!)

I agree 100%. Selfishness, and total disregard for the pain you're causing is why people cheat.

I was saying, by having an affair-- "My experience(romantic, emotional, and physical) with this OM is more important than the damage I'm doing to you or our children. I simply have to have this experience. " Very, very selfish!!! Was it worth it? NO NO NO, .

Is it easy to live with the knowledge you've so royally been such a rotten human being? NO, it's not at all easy to live with. It's very dismal at times, to say the very least. But you know what? I thank God that at some point I realized my huge MISTAKE, and ended it with the OM-- and that I didn't further subject my children to more misery with this person in our lives. I repented, and God truly does forgive. I still pray someday my now exH will somehow find it in his heart to forgive me. But,he doesn't at this point --he knows how extremely selfish I truly was, and I'm sure that's been a frightful realization for him, too. I really don't know how exH feels, as he won't even hardly speak with me. Maybe in time he will tell me more about his feelings, as I've wanted him to do. You can't blame anyone for protecting themselves, after this sort of wound.

I think this thread is helpful to all of us, and I don't mind at all if people feel the need to VENT about us WS's. You're entitled to feel that way.

God Bless,
H_P

REVENGE!!!!!!

Zoey,
i think people cheat b/c they are not happy with there mate they are with. Or they cheat b/c in there mind they feel if they do they are getting that person back for what ever reason being. but actually they are hurting them selves. Cathy

rlyhurtin, thank you and I agree with your statemnt also. They think they have it and we've lost it. Nothing could be further from the truth!
Hopeful_person, it really is purely selfish of the WS. But I do want to say thank you to those WS's who do post. You also give us insight from the other perspective and it's appreciated. I'm sure it takes a lot of courage to do so here.
Robbed, sometimes it is revenge. But anytime we lower ourselves to have a get even A, we simply come out of it feeling worse about ourselves I'd think. Two wrongs won't make a right. Though I thought of it, I couln't do it.
Cathy, unless you H gets help, he will never change. So you will always have a lying deceiver on your hands. No fault of yours! I'm sure you've tried to be the best wife you could. Some just never appreciate what they have. Never satisfied. So my only thought is unless he goes for counselinf and honestly wants to change and admits his problem, Move on while you're still young enough to make a new life. Don't waste another 10 yrs, then 20 then feel it's too late to make changes. It's all about what you are willing to accept now, right now in the present. So while asking him to get help, prepare yourself to be self sufficient. Take classes, get better job, and that in itself will make you feel better and have more confidence. I feel so many of us become Co-Dependent and we have to change us!
LouLou

good evening zoey...

i've been trying to read this thread since you stared it... sometimes i'm reluctant/afraid to read threads like this because i have trouble not feeling that all of the responses are directed at me... sort of if the shoe fits, wear it, if you know what i mean...

i can't answer for anyone else, just for me... why did i cheat?...

i didn't think/believe/feel that my husband loved me...

i had lost all hope...

there was no light at the end of the tunnel... had not been for many years... suddenly there was... unfortunately the light i thought i saw was actually a train...

i did not/do not love myself...

oaktown...

[ December 31, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: oaktown ]

Zoey,

I wish I knew why.

[ January 02, 2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: wanting ]