</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jdmac1:
<strong>Yes but why is it that the marriage always seems to be in such a state only to the cheater? Time and again it is the same, these affairs come out of the blue for the BS. Most have absolutely no idea that the marriage is bad enough that something like this could happen. If it is as you say, why is that? </strong>

its not always that, the board if full of posters that this is not true for at all. many many are in misery together or quite honestly its the bs who is obviously miserable, and the ws is seemingly the one who is "Happy" but the condition of marriage is consistant. that and some people are simply incapable of being committedly married and keep it in their pants.

I agree that some BS have blinders on and will forever refuse to remove them. But an A isn't the answer to removing them. Is it?

jd

in some cases, it is seemingly the only thing that does provide the catalyst for removing the blinders... or we could take your advise and just divorce them right. but i dont take that as the objective of the board.

how would you like to see that advise given prior to to an affair. heck it causes stirs all over the board when someone reccomends it after the affair. nah i doubt that divorce is really what you or anyone here would reccommend to a troubled couple trying to avoid an Affair.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">in some cases, it is seemingly the only thing that does provide the catalyst for
removing the blinders... or we could take your advise and just divorce them right. but
i dont take that as the objective of the board.

how would you like to see that advise given prior to to an affair. heck it causes stirs all
over the board when someone reccomends it after the affair. nah i doubt that divorce
is really what you or anyone here would reccommend to a troubled couple trying to
avoid an Affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Irrespective of whether divorce is an objective of this board, having, starting, or continuing an A is not an objective as well.

Not only would I like to see the advice given prior to an A, I would give it, and would have handled a divorce much better I think. I cannot say that I will ever
completely heal from the A's that touched my family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nah i doubt that divorce is really what you or anyone here would reccommend to a troubled couple trying to avoid an Affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct. I would not necessarily give that advice to a person or persons trying to avoid an affair. But I would give it freely to someone dead set on having an A. Do you see the difference?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct. I would not necessarily give that advice to a person or persons trying to avoid an affair. But I would give it freely to someone dead set on having an A. Do you see the difference?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do you really believe thats how A's happen? that people set out to have them? and are committed to making one happen?

i guess there are those who do and dont care, and thats why i summarily dissmiss those who cant seem to keep it in their pants. but for the most part what i have seen in the brief time ive been here (YA RIGHT) its not generally that way.

i for one have seen the success stories here, and finally believe that I might just become one of them. (after 2 years my wife has started to look inward and discover things within herself after seeing first hand my personal growth she can no longer deny that its possible...YEEE HAWW) so i dont think i will ever from an external vantage point (violence aside) recommend divorce to anyone you see I VALUE MARRIAGE MORE THAN THAT.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I VALUE MARRIAGE MORE THAN THAT. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then perhaps you have truely grown from where you were.

jd

I am a ws. It is selfish.

Miserable in my marriage and don't have the guts to get out. In love with a man who has a wife and can't leave her without loosing everything he's worked for his entire life. He and i have maintained a relationship that allows us to be happy when we can be together.

It is not pretty. It's the way affairs work when two people decide to cheat.

hey JD nows your chance counsel away!

Wow Chaz. That reply dripped with sarcasm. Look I don't want to councel you or anyone else. I admit to not keeping up with your saga. It makes no difference in my stance. If you or anyone else is going to intentionally w***e around, then that person should divorce their spouse out of sheer compassion for the betrayed.

It makes no difference. The key word is cheater. To defend the action speaks volumes. There is no valid excuse. Get a divorce, or stop. Or continue on, but don't expect everyone to agree that because your spouse is bad, doesn't treat you well, ignores you, ect, that it is acceptabe or right. You are not forced to put up with intolerable actions from your spouse. You have an out. You do not have the right, nor are you morally correct to have an A, or it be justified, because of her actions or lack thereof.

What happened to the Chaz who used to debate SNL so well? You seem quite the different person.

jd

Why do people cheat?......Because they can.

anyways the devil is in the semantics, the question is biased by virtue of using a qualifier ie "cheat". A more appropriate question would be why do people enter relationships.... they do so for 2 healthy reasons, procreation primarily, and companionship secondarily, and one dysfunctional reason, various power, control issues and other sundry psychological dysfunctions. Marital status is irrelevant to either of the healthy drives (meaning marital status does not alter the drives, they still exist, and will be acted on). "Cheating" is also genetically and evolutionarily a sound reproductive strategy, which further confuses the issue. The real question seems more mundane, why do we treat each other the way we do. Reminds me a bit of the moral scenario about theft, immoral and unethical, but what does one do when the difference between life and death is "stealing" a loaf of bread? "cheating" is a survival issue, there are no rules which apply, much as we would like to think otherwise.

It feels good and safe to assign the lable cheating, and we should, it is not the best way to handle relationship conflict, ever. Likewise it would be good to exorcise vanity, greed, gluttony, lust, pride, and a host of other "evils" people inflict on each other as we try to control our circumstances, survive. Who knows, maybe someday we will.

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jdmac1:
<strong> It makes no difference. The key word is cheater. To defend the action speaks volumes.</strong>

I hope you dont think in anyway what i have said here today in anyway defends the act of cheating. its not about that at all. what it is about is the lack of accountability from BS's who want only to strap the WS to the rack and not look at the marriage and into the future.

without change history will undoubtedly repeat or worse the marriage may fail altogether.

There is no valid excuse.

i dont argue that, not in the least. what i argue is the lack of introspection by BS's and Ws's for that matter.

Get a divorce, or stop. Or continue on, but don't expect everyone to agree that because your spouse is bad, doesn't treat you well, ignores you, ect, that it is acceptabe or right. You are not forced to put up with intolerable actions from your spouse. You have an out.

I would rather advise people how to find a way to fix their marriage, if the alternative for a "potential WS is Divorce" why would that be the case? is it impossible to change the marriage? is it impossible for the future BS to learn and adapt. it seems as though your reccomendation is to believe that the BS is incapable of change. and i cant believe thats what you mean.

You do not have the right, nor are you morally correct to have an A, or it be justified, because of her actions or lack thereof.

I dont disagree in my case it was a serious lack of self worth and a genuine belief that the marriage was a sham that made it "OK" in my mind. and that was the only place it was ok, and as i gained strenghth it wasnt even ok there anymore.

What happened to the Chaz who used to debate SNL so well? You seem quite the different person.

same guy same approach, i apply it equally to WS's and BS's alike you just dont appreciate when it's the BS.

jd[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Let's face it. In any marriage, at any given time, if one wants to cheat they will find an excuse, usually always blaming their S. No one is perfect, so therefore, no S can be perfect. Neither one! It's always the spouses fault according to the cheater. None seem to look at themselves as having changed and they do not make their spouse entirely happy either. It's a two way street! And it isn't solved by jumping into an A. Get the divorce first, then have your A!
And to the lady who is in love with the MM who can't leave due to losing all hes' worked for? how about the wife. She earned just as much as he even if she never worked outside the home. Where is it written that the man owns all the assets? BULLS---! As for you, go work on your marriage as hard as you're working on her H and maybe you'll learn how to be happy and make your H happy. When anyone uses the excuse they can't leave due to losing assets, they're saying you are not worth what I'd give up and they don't mean money! They have no intention of leaving their spouses. That's what they're not willing to give up. NAIVE is the word for those who swallow this line. You WS's are happy in the A only becaue there is no responsible to that relatioship. You're also stealing from your spouses. Every dime spent on your is robbing his spouse of her share. he should be taking her out to the places he takes you. Spend the money on her, the hotels and fun times. Then he'd be happier and she would be too.
Wake up please and go home and work on your own M. Leave others alone to work their's out. you'll end up with the same thing even if you divorce and marry. you know why? Because God will repay you in kind for your sin. Your damage to others. your hurtful, inconsideration of another human life and their feelings. WS's lie so they look good to you, But I can guarantee, they've failed as much as the spouse they blame if not worse! I say to all who don't want to be faithful. Get out and get a single person to ruin. And leave the married ones alone. There are plenty single out there. And don't remarry. Stay single so you can just screw around constantly. Because you will never last in a marriage for very long! When the reality comes, you'll once again be screwing around with someone else and hurting another spouse. Mad and don't mind who knows it. No sympathy for those who cry on OP shoulders making themselves look like saints who've been used. You will get what you deserve. If you're messing around with a M person, what makes you think they won't cheat on you when you become overly familar? And you will! There is no love there, it's all about new sex, excitement, then dump when you grow too familar. LOL Guess some deserve each other though.
My H fed all the same lines to OW until I caught them, Then he dumped her and asked for a chance to save M. He never had any intention of leaving me. Just game playing. LouLou

Cindy, you said you wanted to know what you did wrong to make H cheat. Stop that thinking right now. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG! There is no justification for cheating, nothing! It's a choice people make and do without any thought of who gets hurt. it's purely a selfish, immature, dirty choice. I don't care how many excuses the WS give as to why, there is no justification. The perceived problems in the marriage could not be solved by an A. They, or most, are intelligent enough to know it has to be brought to the surface,discussed, and counseling if need be to work the problems out. make changes in the M. Choosing and A if purely their way of doing what they wanted to do anyway and blame someone else.I can guarantee, if there is a problem in the M, it's both feeling it. Not just the one who runs out to have an A. Again, it's an excuse only to blame the spouse. They need to take a good hard look at themselves and find out why they have no moral values, or guts to stand up and talk to their spouse. An unhappy M is not going to be solved by jumping in bed with anyone else.And they know this! In fact, they have to know it's going to destroy what is left of cause serious damage. Sex is fleeting. Real love and maturity is lasting. Commitment is what counts. Basically, In my opinion, they want to cop out on life and responsibility. Live the single life again. But maintain their image of the Marriage at same time. Don't take any blame for yourself. You are not perfect, but then no one is and a real man should stand up, talk to his wife and discuss areas where they feel needs not met. And yours too! When a WS blames the S, it's called guilt transference! Just ask any counselor. Good luck and sorry your so hurting. LouLou

Chaz,

Do you remember posting this? I agree with P. As well as others. Do you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted August 06, 2001 01:54 PM

i actually wrote this months ago, found it searching for another post. i think most of it applies still.

Lessons learned by a WS

a. don’t believe that they(bs) won’t care

b. be honest really honest

c. give them(bs) a chance to be responsive if you don’t tell them they wont know

d. don’t think they(bs) heard you just because you feel like you were screaming it from the rooftops. say it again louder, in a different language until they say it back they didn’t hear you.

e. if they aren’t responsive give it more time, if more time doesnt work give them more time, but if it is over, leave them first then meet your needs

f. do not be afraid of conflict, dealing with conflict is what makes it work not avoiding it.

g. be honorable, who will want you if you cant be trusted

h. do not be ashamed of your needs and wants

i. let your spouse try to change, accept what they are willing to give as genuine until proven otherwise.

j. allow your spouse to be angry about your choice they deserve to be.

k. accept that your spouse isn’t the only one who failed the marriage

l. be sorry for what happened. really sorry

m. let your spouse try

n. don’t forget the pain you’ve caused

o. don’t forget the pain that made having an A ok in your head, make sure to protect against it. hold true to your needs don’t let guilt wash away the failure of you marriage.

p. apologize to your spouse for your choice, no reason why it happened no buts, just apologize.

q. ask your spouse how you can meet their needs.

r. open your life completely. no secrets, share all activities and passwords. you did
something that caused you to be suspect. do everything you can to be transparent and predictable so that your spouse can begin to trust you again.

s. did I mention open up your life be completely transparent answer all questions about where you were and what you were doing non-defensively you don’t deserve trust yet
earn it by being truthful and open.

t. never compare your spouse to OP hold them accountable for meeting your need, but know that everyone has their own style love the effort

u. hold your spouse, just hold them tell them you love them

v. be thankful your property isn’t in the driveway

w. tell your spouse what you need from them be honest, don’t hide from them what they need to know in order to decide to act.

x. act on what they tell you they need, don’t expect that they are the ones who have to work on this.

y. be polite act loving even when you don’t feel that way.

z. be honest, be open, tell them what you need, set boundaries and listen to them make sure you are working hard to meet their needs too. don’t forget how bad it’s been struggle hard not to be here ever again.

thanks

------------------
in loving service
chaz </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

absolutly!!

read D. And O. Again!

they are important!

Hi Zoey,

I only read a few of the other responses, so forgive me if I'm repetitive. My husband had an affair with a much younger woman, and I have been dealing with this since September of 1999. We have had joint and individual counseling, counseled with Steve Harley, Marriage Built, etc. I say all this so you will sort of understand where I am and also to explain that I am not "new" at this or speaking from some place on the edge of this situation.

As the betrayed spouse, I had to do a lot of work to forgive, recommit to the marriage, and try, really TRY, to understand what happened, why it happened, and how to avoid it again. After more than three years, many thousuands of hours of work, MANY thousands of dollars, and literally BILLIONS of tears, I have to say this about why a person cheats:

I DO NOT KNOW.

I can tell you the reasons that my husband cheated, at least the reasons he and the many counselor's we've seen SAY that he did it. With many factors at play (nearing 50, about to be empty nesters, death of his mother, passed over for promotion at work for job given to younger man, wife receiving a lot of attention and recognition for local community project, etc.), he was suffering from depression. Add to that a SERIOUS case of KISAS (Knight-In-Shining-Armor-Syndrome) aggravated by an increasingly independent wife and daughter, and a woman with three young children who WANTED to be "saved", and it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

You wrote that "My hole I was in was so dark that when that person came along, I was so desperate for a tiny ray of light that I took it when it came. I was so lost emotionally and mentally I lost all sense of right and wrong. I was dead basically."

My husband has said almost those exact words, and THAT I can understand. I have been depressed, and that IS how it feels.

But to be honest, I have NEVER seen even one problem in a marriage that was helped by an affair. As I have said before, I believe an affair is a completely irrational response to a situation that it cannot possibly help, often committed by a person whose mental judgement is seriously impaired by something, as in my husband's case depression. I think it is very similar to the feelings a person experiences when considering suicide, a desperate need to do something to end the emotional pain.

So you see, I have given this a lot of time and effort, and I speak to you from absolutely personal experience. Yet I still have to say that I do not know how or why a person would cheat on their spouse, and I hope I never do know that. I don't think any faithful spouse really understands it, and there are lots of unfaithful ones that don't either! It took a long time for me to be able to believe my husband when he said he didn't know why it happened. Now he says that it was like being trapped in a nightmare and being pulled deeper and deeper into the black hole of it. He also says that everytime he thinks of it, it is like a black veil drops over him and it makes him feel so horrible.

We were not the perfect couple (though lots of people thought/think so) and we both made mistakes in our relationship (nothing else as bad as this of course). I accept my responsibility for the weaknesses in our marriage, and I have often made my husband's life miserable since dday. I've apologized and atoned as best I can. My husband has assured me (still does regularly) that his choice to cheat had nothing to do with me, and I believe that to be true. We have pretty much done recovery "right" and are on the way to spending the rest of our lives together.

But I still don't know why it happened. There is no logic, no explanation, no excuse good enough.

But it DID happen, and acceptance was the really hard part for me. And it does matter WHY it happened, and I listen and understand all the explanations. It's my heart that just doesn't get it, and it never will.

Thanks for the discussion. I hope I have time to read it all. I did notice that lots of people said selfishness. I think that is what ALLOWS affairs to happen, but I don't think that is the real cause of them. The causes are probably as varied as the cheaters themselves.

Thanks again,

Peppermint

re the list posted above, what was it's original context? It sounds great for someone who wants to reconcille, but makes no sense for someone who does not want to remain married.

For example I have noticed one common affair scenario is someone reaching out of a very abusive marriage and entering an affair. Quite often this person has no desire whatsoever to remain in the marriage (and rightly so). Although they should have just "left" in the first place, were not strong enough to overcome the well-documented programming that occurs in such dysfunctional marriages, and "chose" (not realy, affairs are rarely choices, they are instinctual behaviour) a relationship with someone else (psychological survival). Many people are in such relationships (there are lots and lots of really screwed up people in this world who manage to attract a mate) and want nothing more than escape from the hell their life has become. It is very unlikely they are gonna care at all about the "injury" to the abusers emotional well-being, or attempt to repair anything. The only reason the "affair" is wrong in these circumstances is because of whatever effect it has on the ws. The BS will recieve no consideration, nor do they deserve any, you reap what you sow, and to one degree or another an affair is as much a marital failure (meaning the bs is a part of it) as it is an individual failure (of the ws), and what I see in the various opinions about this subject is a focus on which part was more significant, the marital failure or the individual failure. In an abusive marriage the affair is primarily the "fault" of the bs, as the ws desperately tries to survive. In a typical neglectful (married living singly syndrome, where avoidance, and both getting en's met elsewhere is the circumstance) it is an equal failure of both bs and ws more or less. In a marriage where the bs is doing pretty much all the right stuff, little love busing, pulling their weight, etc. but isn't omniscient, the affair is primarily a ws failure.

Understanding the why's of an affair (or why we do anything for that matter, including why do we lovebust for example) is important. It makes sense you cannot go forward and have a safe marriage without understanding why the marriage failed in the first place, which is necessay to actually make a competent decision to continue in it (both bs and ws need to do this). As for the selfishness label, don't know, seems we are all selfish, doesn't the bs just as selfishly try to keep the marriage going? Maybe what is meant is there is "good" selfishness, and "bad" selfishness, and naturally we all think our own selfishness is the good kind I suspect. The answer does not lie in selfishness peppermint, and the reasons an affair occured in your marriage are knowable, you probably allready know (judging by the effort you made) and do not like the answer.

It is interesting that I have seen a couple of posts recently which seem to indicate that people who cheat are looking for a parent figure.

Chazbutler said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">had it been your child, would you have done it the same way?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I suspected that my H might be depressed, I encouraged him to go to a doctor. I talked to him about it - put I couldn't force him to do anything. He did, in fact, go to the doctor, but talked only about some physical issues.

Katie Scarlett said something about treating your spouse as if he were your child, albeit your 20 year old child. But he is NOT my child. I would not want to be treated like a child - that is the height of disrespect.

I believe that the majority of affairs are the result of depression, depression that is often triggered by major life events or tragedy, but is often also linked to the relationship of the cheater to his parent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
[QB]It is interesting that I have seen a couple of posts recently which seem to indicate that people who cheat are looking for a parent figure.

Chazbutler said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">had it been your child, would you have done it the same way?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I suspected that my H might be depressed, I encouraged him to go to a doctor. I talked to him about it - put I couldn't force him to do anything. He did, in fact, go to the doctor, but talked only about some physical issues.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">its not parental to take action when someone you love is in dispare, or "disinigrating".

its difficult to hear time and again how this happened out of nowhere, how the A completely caught me off guard, Could have knocked me over with a feather... etc. over and over i see how things were fine for me but my WS never said anything about how sad, unhappy, or whatever the condition is to the BS. especially when in the very next paragraph they will admit they saw it in them but did nothing or little to change what existed in the Marriage.

if you love someone you dont watch as they self destruct, you take action you intervene you turn your world upside down to help them. watching as it happens is like seeing smoke and not checking to see if there is a FIRE!! you dont get to say after the building has burned down, oh i saw the smoke but it didnt really bother me so i didnt do anything about it.

dont for a moment think that I believe that any of this is a "Reason" or an Excuse for having an Affair, i dont. the choice and reasons for having an affair all reside within the person who chooses to have one. that however doesnt change in the very least whats happened in the MARRIAGE!

just because someone makes the worst mistake in a marriage doesnt give the BS a FREE PASS on their behavior and participation in the marriage.

not for the past and certainly not for the future.

I think you can also look at a number of sociological factors:

Right now, there are more women in U.S. than men. Therefore, from a male's perspective it's a "buyer's market" - there are essentially, many women looking for relationships...and not enough men to go around. With 'more men' available (this phenomena started in western countries in the early 1900's) women were no longer being held to "traditional" feminine values - ergo - the so-called sexual revolution....which....if you choose to sum it up this way goes something like this: "now you girls can have non-marriage related sex just like us and we won't punish you for it....because it's in our best interest that you do.?

Also, there is a lot more importance on marriage as the MAIN source of emotional, sexual and financial support than in the past. What does this mean. If you look at the history of the family, (I'm talking historically - in the sense of written history - 500 b.c. forward) in the past a marriage was a means to financial support only; mortality was high so spouses only spent about 10 years together, peer groups provided emotional support; sexual mores were quite different. Around the late 1800's the idea of "romantic love" became popular. Since the mid 1900's this idea of romance changed many societies so that now marriage is seen as the MAIN source of support for all three factors: emotional, financial and sexual. This is a lot of pressure for one institution. When reality does not meet the high expectations we now set for marriage, the marriage is seen to have "failed" and the 'wounded' partner(s) start looking elsewhere.
Many people think that divorce and adultery are due to people perceiving the institution of marriage as having little value. I think it's because the institution is actually perceived as having such profound value.

LLL

Quote:if you love someone you dont watch as they self destruct, you take action you intervene you turn your world upside down to help them. watching as it happens is like seeing smoke and not checking to see if there is a FIRE!! you dont get to say after the building has burned down, oh i saw the smoke but it didnt really bother me so i didnt do anything about it

Sometimes it is what you have to do, if someone is on a path of self destruction and you try to do everything and anything you can to stray the course for that person, it sometimes and often does fall on deaf ears. It can only be changed when that person decides to seek the help they need or communicate or whatever is needed to get them back on track for themselves. Sometimes it does take that person going to the lowest depths of their inner selves. Yes it's gut wrenching to watch and at the same time you are hurting for them as you are hurting for yourself. We all have the ability to search ourselves but sometimes due to mental, emotional, or any combination of issues, that have been posted on this thread some can not or refuse to until they hit rock bottom.
Does not make the BS guilty of neglect or not coming to terms with what they could have done differently. Does not make the WS's behavior any easier to come to terms with as it is for the BS to "what if", should of, could of" Somethings are not in our control on all issues surrounding an A. Everyone here has validity to what they feel is the reasons, but it is based also on their own person knowledge, and intimacy being involved in one as the BS or the WS. I hope that makes sense to some people here as I do not want to get into anymore slash attacks or semantics bashing. Just because someone can see things straying from the relationship does not mean they can change the course of where it's going, they can do the best they can do, and hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. But as I can only deal with my emotional make-up of understanding, coping, compromising, and capacity to stay mentally strong when faced with traumatic issues, I can not even Persume that I can have control over someone else's unless they lend a hand in helping me and have the awareness to identify that in themselves for the relationship to be brought back to the forefront of importance. Sorry so long.

neesha,

I dont disagree that one can only do what one can do.

my issue is with people who seemingly want it both ways.

you cant say. "i didnt know", and "i saw it coming."

thats what kills me.