Any solutions ? - Marriage Builders® Forums

I have just been unfaithful to my wife for the second time with the same woman. I know that I am still in love with my wife and want to know the true reasons why someone in love with there wife could do such a hurtful thing over.
Just to let you know about the other woman. she is a coworker of mine. we started out talking to each other about personal things and it went crazy from there. the second time it was a little bit different. She lost a family member and I was a friend of the spouse I felt sorry about the loss and asked to tell the uncle that if he needs any help to let me know.

With that the phone calls started again and the feelings again. I knew what was going on but could not stop and turn the other way.

localboy...

No sense telling you that you goofed, you know that much.

Does your wife know?

First thing first - break it off with the OW RIGHT NOW. No contact of any kind. How is your wife doing? She just had a much worse loss than the girlfriend and needs you a lot more.

Also, you said more about the girlfriend than the wife in your post... mull that one over a little. Not being nasty, would love to help - i have been there and done that and thank God the wife kept me

Local boy,

Welcome to MB. You have walked the borders of a dangerous precipice and still lived. For that you s/b grateful.

The OW is just that, an OW. Cunning, deceitful and quite devious.

While I personally don't know your OW, let me share with you an OW that I am acquainted with.

Let's call her..... PBR.

PBR advertised herself on the internet. So did the WS. Both were looking for excitment. They found each other. The relationship was on/off. OW tried to convince the WS she was better than his family. OW even claimed being 'hapai' 3 times.

OW threatened suicide, threatened to get the BS fired, threatened to make trouble for the BS and family, etc.

OW claimed to be able to walk into the BS family's life and make trouble whenever she felt like it.

WS' character changed during the A. He was mean and angry to everyone, especially his family. His W suffered and so did his child. All knew the WS was going from bad to worse.

Yet the WS was addicted to the OW for close to 3 years. Yes, he tried recovery several times. Each time the OW would pull him back. He was a weak man.

The BS was growing weary. Not getting any younger, the BS decided to move forward with her life and removed herself from the triangle. The OW did not like losing control over......over the wife (BS). Imagine that. See the extent some OWs go through? You think the A is only about the WS and OP? Nope, it is more. It is a selfish act that addicts the WS and OP. They feel they own the world. The OW even left a message saying the WS committed 'emotional adultery' when he tried recovery and went back to his family.

The A left the WS (H), homeless, sick and very poor. Yet the OW claimed to make him rich, healthy and happy beyond his wildest dreams. That's it, it was just a 'dream'.....but for the BS and family.....it was a nightmare.

It was a nightmare of the WS also but he had more control over it than the BS and family did. The BS, family and frieds, for a while had to watch while this WS dug a hole in his life and sunk below sea level. He almost drowned.

Latest antic? OW tried to serve the WS with some sort of Restraining order paperwork.

Think this is an unusual case? Nope, just one of the many stories here.

See any of your OW in the above example?

Keep reading. Recovery takes time to root firmly. You now have to earn your way back to your W. This is not impossible but it is not easy. How determined are you to recover?

L.

Because sometimes "being in love" with someone is not enough to avoid hurting them. We hurt people we love all the time..and then usually turn around and look for something..anything to justify it or blame it on.

Not many have the courage to look right at themselves in the mirror and say.."gee, do you think something might be wrong with ME?"

Going out on a limb, I would guess that loving your wife, and also seeking affection/sex/ whatever from someone else has less to do with either the women involved and much more to do with youself.

Well, that's where you start..with yourself....may take some therapy, some reading, some soul searching. Until you get in touch with who you are, you'll never really understand why you do what you do.

Whenever my kids go out, their final words of warning from their Mom..."remember who you are". My son told me he never knew who he was till he completed rehab and therapy. And then realized he could become the person he wanted to be. And then, finally understood what I was saying.

Local Boy, again..this has nothing to do with the women involved..it has to do with the man. You need to learn about him, learn to love him..and find reasons to be proud of him.
Hang in there,
T

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2ofaKind:
localboy...

No sense telling you that you goofed, you know that much.

Does your wife know?

First thing first - break it off with the OW RIGHT NOW. No contact of any kind. How is your wife doing? She just had a much worse loss than the girlfriend and needs you a lot more.

Also, you said more about the girlfriend than the wife in your post... mull that one over a little. Not being nasty, would love to help - i have been there and done that and thank God the wife kept me<hr /></blockquote>Yes she does thats why I'm not at home.
She is not taking it to well.
You mean you just told your self that its going to stop and you did?
It must mean that you did not have any feelings for the other person.
I have a very beautiful wife she has a very warm heart and loves to help people. My wife does not have any fault for the things I have done.

Thank you for your response but I have to go now talk to you all later tomarrow.

Hello Local Boy,

First you should find a new job. You should have zero contact with the OW. If you are serious about working things out with your wife than I suggest you figure out why you had the affair and allowed it to resume again. Not once did you ever do anything needed to protect your wife. You should come up with the plan on how to heal the marriage. It is time you do all the work to repair the damage. Not as your wife for information that she probably shared the first time. You should make the appointments for IC and MC. Why not try and formulate some recovery plans yourself without someone telling you what to do.

Not to sound harsh but it is time to step up to the plate and do the really hard work and examine yourself and find out why you allowed this to happen again and why you neglected your wife so much. You can do this you are a bright person it just comes down to do you want to do the hard work?

local boy,

Man, do you sound like my husband. I agree with Twyla, this is about you. It has very little to do with OW or even your dear wife. IF you love your wife. Really love her; then work on yourself, so that she can have a man that she deserves. Be that man.
2oaks suggestion about ending all contact, is the "mB way". It is what is best if you want your marraige. But then, ending your affair the first time would have been best; or how about never having it in the first place. But since you can not go back in time, you need to do some serious soul-searching. You said you are out of the house. Where are you? Do you like being without her? She may not ever forgive you this time. She may not "get over" (we HATE that word around here, BTW) your latest betrayel. You came to marraige builders. That tells me that you must think you would like to "build" your marraige. But you must take a hard, deep look at yourself. You must stop making excuses about why you had an affair. The OW was never your responsibility. NEVER. So someone died. What concern was that of yours?? You should have been more concerned about your dear wife.
I am not beating up on you. I understand all to well. As I said, you sound a lot like my husband. He loved his OW. His affair was a year 1/2 --constant. He got caught 6 times by me and the OW's husband. He was hooked.
Fog. Fog. Fog. He was unable to make sound desitions because he had got caught up in all the lies he had been telling. It almost killed us. I had called a lawyer. Almost all my love for him died. I still do not trust him yet, but we are working on it. Please have a read at my husbands first post here. Read my story on my sig. line. You are not the first man to be here. You won't be the last.
Get in there and dig deep. What kind of man do you want to be?
best of luck to you. Coming here and admiting what you've done, and trying to seek help is a great start.
God Bless.
tsc

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=008969#000000

[ August 28, 2003, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: tsc ]

dear local boy---welcome to marriage builders!

i agree with twyla, and tsc. you really need to dig inside you to figure this all out. i am 2 yrs into this and my husband is finally starting to do this. fixing you is the key. you need to figure out why you've made the choices you have.

since you are not at home right now---i think you should take this time ALONE (no ow either) to work on you. get yourself away from the ow and figure out what you need to be healed. yes you do need to heal also. only then, after you heal yourself and deal with your own issues that led you to where you are right now, can you possibly present yourself to your wife and pray she still wants to recover with you.

if you dont heal whats in you first, you are too dangerous to your wife. good luck and keep posting. we will do all we can to guide you.

How about alittle more background LocalBoy,,,

How long have you been married? Your ages? Kids?

How long were you involved in the affair the first time? Was the affair discovered or did you confess? And the second time?

How did you and your W deal with the discovery of the affair the first time? Did you see a counselor, either together or individually? What changes took place to insure this would not happen again?

And, finally what are your feelings about your W? The OW? Yourself? Be honest,,,,

and Welcome,,,,,,we do care,,,, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FYI local boy is ********** WH.

[ August 29, 2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: MBMagnolia ]

local boy -

Your wife sounds amazing - any man's dream. And she forgave you and believed in you and tried to work this out once.

What can you offer her now?

I agree with all of the others. If your wife is truly all she says she is to you why did you risk her love, your marriage and all that goes with it?

Sometimes we do things that destroy our lives. This is what you have done. Any one of us can find someone who is a little needy, a little pretty and a little willing. You and the OW are not unique - you are a sad cliche. I'm sorry if that upsets you but it is true.

You need to get into counseling and READ, READ, READ anything that you can get your hands on to figure out why you destroy your life in this way. Why you hurt the one you love the most so deeply and so much.

These answers are inside yourself and can be brought out by looking inward and obtaining the guidance of others.

You need to figure out why so little will turn your head and heart from so much.

You sound like my H. Wanting to blame his actions on OW or this "innocent" inquiry on her family situation. If you wanted to talk to the spouse you could have spoken with the spouse of the deceased directly. Do not make excuses for yourself anymore - you only hurt yourself and insult your wife. You knew EXACTLY what you were doing. Did you tell your wife of continued contact? Did you tell her that you wanted to reach out to a family member of the OW? Did you lean on the one who you could trust to guide you through it? No, you knew what you were doing.

Figure out why you do the things you do and figure out how to get your life back. And get another job immediately - the OW is toxic to your life - she helped you destroy it!

Addicted to Unhappiness by William and Martha Pieper is a great book to try to figure out why we mess up our lives seemingly on purpose. Why we lack control and how to get it back into our lives. It involves awareness.

I believe you can do this. But you need to be willing to put in the time and effort and face the dark places in yourself, accept them and love yourself despite of them - conquer those dark places . My H did it and the day he got too scared and backed away is the day our marriage started falling apart again.

Report back to everyone on this forum on your progress and your insights. You will find friends, cyberhugs and some tough love but you will be a better man for it.

local boy:

I don't know enough from the few lines you've written to tell you about your situation. But if you read much here, you'll probably find that it is very, very similar to that of many, many others. I can only speak from my experience.

My H also had an A with a co-worker. I had met her before it became an A, and my first impression of her was that she was very needy. She constantly seemed to have some sort of "emergency" that she needed H to come "rescue" her from. Later on, H admitted that he liked the feeling of being someone's "knight in shining armor" much more than he like anything about the OW herself. When he took a good, realistic look at her, there wasn't much there to be attracted to. But he liked feeling important and admired.

My H is a very sweet, kind, easygoing guy. Almost everyone likes him as soon as they meet him. However, he had a really hard time growing up and a very rough relationship with his father. Somehow, over 4 years dating as High School sweethearts and 10 years of marriage, I could never seem to get him to see him as I saw him--a smart, capable, worthwhile guy. He could only focus on his own faults and shortcomings. It didn't matter that he was smart and got good grades in school--he didn't make as much money as me, so that meant he was a loser. It didn't matter that I found him extremely attractive--he was a bit overweight, so that made him a loser.

I knew all along that he didn't have good self-esteem, and always seemed to need lots of people to tell him how great he was--friends, coworkers, etc. And since he was "secure" that he didn't have to do too much to keep me around singing his praises, I was usually last on his list of priorities--so he could focus his energy on keeping all the other "friends" around feeding his self-esteem.

The point is, she always needed someone else to "make" her feel good about herself. He always needed someone else to "make" him feel good about himself. Neither of them realized that self-worth has to come from a place inside yourself. They tried to get their spouses to fill it, but the emptiness was too big for any one person to fill. It was too big for 10 people to fill. No matter what I did, I couldn't make my H really like himself and really believe he was a good enough person.

Long story short, the OW asked him to take her somewhere after work to "talk about her problems" and as soon as they got there, all she wanted to talk about was giving him a BJ. It took me about two months to finally get to the truth. While I was trying to figure it all out, I found MB. I started trying to meet his needs. But he was already addicted. It took telling him straight out that I was going to divorce him, and a trip to the atty's office, to get him to wake up and realize what he was risking, and for what.

I made a lot of conditions for us to get back together. First was that he had to have NC with the OW and start making an effort to find another job. When OW wouldn't respect his request for NC, he took it a step further, and gave his 2 weeks notice (he found a job after 1 day out of work--God answers prayers.) Second, he had to commit to counseling. He took that a step further, found a really highly recommended Christian counselor, and scheduled weekly, instead of monthly, appointments.

Everything I asked of him, he did that and a bit extra. Because he realized, whether I stayed or left, he still had to live with himself and the man he'd become, and he wanted to know for himself WHY.

The end result? We are now healing very well. H has a renewed, stronger relationship with God. He had to ditch some friends that were not healthy, but he made even more who were healthy, good influences. He healed a lot of those old childhood wounds in counseling, and found some direction in life he'd always been lacking. We're expecting a new baby in February.

We just heard recently that the OW, who never got counseling, has started ANOTHER A with yet another coworker. Her H is at his wits end.

I can't tell you why you made the choices you made, local boy. Those answers are inside you, inside your heart, head, and memories. All I can suggest is that you probably will not find peace, either with your wife, with OW, or with yourself, till you find them. Find a good, competent counselor (Christian, if you are one). And listen to the people here--they have a lot of hard-won experience and wisdom.

Good luck and God bless.

P.S. - I noticed you made a comment to another WS that if they were able to totally break contact with the OP "cold turkey," that must mean they had no feelings for them. I don't doubt that you have sincere caring feelings for the OW. My H did, too--he was and is a kind, caring person. But those feelings don't excuse anything, and they're not the reason you are where you are right now. Whether you believe it or not, you have the power to make the right choices, IN SPITE OF your feelings. Until you believe that, you will never be free.

[ August 28, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Kat72 ]

[ September 17, 2003, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: still forever hers ]

Local...
Yes, i broke contact cold turkey after discovery. OW tried to re-establish it and I flatly refused.

This might not be fun but try this...
When you think about OW and wish you could talk to her close your eyes and imagine the look on your wife's face when she found out, especially since this was the second time. Remember how badly hurt she was - is anything worth that???

Now try closing your eyes and imagining her blowing your best friend and enjoying it. Sorry to be graphic... when you get done throwing up read the rest, it is more gentle...

OK, there are some things to recognize right now.
First, recognize that cheating on your wife is wrong. Divorcing her to free yourself up to play the field is crummy, but honest. Cheating is just not justifiable. Remember - I did it too so I am not trying to suggest I am any better. I am betting you are not a chickensh!t coward, you just acted like one for a while - i did too before I pulled my head out of my rear... by shades, the light gets pretty bright.

I broke it off with OW 5 times before discovery, the pain I had caused hit my like a truck. Feelings toward the OW were insignificant next to the pain I had caused. After discovery it was OVER, if OW died 6 months ago i have no idea because I dropped mutual friends and places that she might be.

Let me very up front with you - you are very lucky you got a second chance. You will be incredibly lucky to get a third and if you blow it I am willing to bet there will not be a fourth. Decision time big guy.
IF you really love your wife then this is your one chance to fix things. Whatever happened between the first time you got busted and this time is not going to work again. She does not trust you and you have not earned it. Hopefully you are in a panic and willing to do anything to fix it... here is an initial list of suggestions:

1. NO FRIGGING CONTACT OF ANY KIND
2. NO FRIGGING CONTACT OF ANY KIND
3. The first step is to put your wife first in every decision. You got to do what you wanted at her expense - you owe her.
4. If your wife wants a no-contact letter do it, if not, see 1 & @.
5. You can't apologize right now. You lied again and your words are meaningless so try actions.
- Cell records now belong to her
- You are not allowed to spend a penny that you can't account for
- Give up any/all account passwords to online stuff.
- ask her what else as a first step.
- be reachable 24/7 by cell when you are not together.
- IF she will let you, get back home and spend as much time by her side as you can. Dote on her. When she screams and cries, try to hold her. If she won't allow it then try to do whatever you can. She'll say some horrible things (if you are lucky - if she ignores you then be very worried, hate and love are pretty close, if you are to ambivalence you are in trouble)
When I was in your shoes I begged, pleaded and begged more - not for forgivness but for a chance to EARN the right to even ask. She made it rough and I took it... that is a beginning.

Here is probably the toughest part. She is going to look back at every day from the last d-day til this one and ask questions - lots and uncomfortable ones. I KNOW that you will want to soften the answers and spin it to make yourself seem as innocent as possible. WRONG WRONG WRONG. Start by telling her everything and deny nothing unless it is not true. If you are honest about the worst of it, it is easier to believe when you deny something and are telling the truth.

If you do that and she agrees to discuss forgiving you your life will get a lot better very quickly - at least the fear of discovery is gone and you don't have to remember your story once the truth is out.

Find a marriage counselor - interview 5 and ask how they can hellp you in this situation, tell her what all five said and ask HER which one she wants, then book it and GO. The more blame you take, the more responsibility you accept and the more you do to show you want to make things right the better off you are. ONE lie right now hangs you and sets you back to the bottom of the hole (which will now be deeper with water falling in faster).

Your call. Lose your wife or lose your lies right now but don't think about this long. The more time that passes without you going to your wife, falling on your knees, confessing everything and begging for one chance to fix this the worse your chances are.

The good news is that if you throw your entire effort into this HONESTLY - for her, not you, things can be better than they were before the first affair. You are going to have to find out what made you open to an affair and work with her on changing it.

Simple question - do you want to look in the mirror and know you are honest again or see a liar and cheater looking back?

8 months later we are doing really well... the other day she told me that the one thing that saved my sorry tail was not defending it, not justifying and not dodging it. If she is going to trust you she has to first respect you. Earn her respect back by being man enough to take responsibility and be honest - the trust will take a LOOONG time but hope/respect can be rebuilt quickly if you are sincere about doing the right things.

Now close your eyes and see that wife of yours in absolute agony and pain again.
One other motivation - do you have kids? Imagine getting to see them every other weekend while another man raises them and makes love to your wife every night, keep that picture in your head if you get tempted.

Your move buddy. We'll be here, we want to help and can give suggestions that work but they may not be fun and they may hurt.

Praying for you.

2.

IF...you follow 2's advice...you might luck out and be able to save your life (more or less) as you have known it.

If you don't...you might re-create something similar...but the results will be less then satisfactory for either you or your W...and in all likelyhood you'll find yourself all alone with no W, no marriage...and wondering how you did this to yourself and those who you love and who love you!

How did I lose it all????? The cry of many a WS when looking at an apartment with only four walls and no love.

Being betrayed once is harmful enough, being betrayed a second time is usually just too much for the BS to overcome. Nothing is going to be easy...it's all hard. No matter what your decision is to be...things will change. It's up to you as to what changes you are willing to make to prove "I love my wife".

And...IF....you want your marriage...begin looking for a new job TODAY!!!!!

You've already proven in no uncertain terms that you are not trustworthy to be around this woman. You have yet to prove that you are trustworthy at all...but changing jobs would be one of the easiest steps to take to maybe have your W agree to talk to you about the possibility of maybe at some time in the future...reclaim the trust you threw in the garbage and just on the outside hope of maybe getting a third chance at saving your marriage and your family and your life!!!!

localboy,
If you have any interest in saving your M at all, you have to stick to NC (no contact). GET ANOTHER JOB!!! It's amazing what you can create when you really put your heart and mind to it.

It's not that the feelings just "stop", but you have to do the action steps to keep yourself on the right path and moving forward. You are in what we call the FOG and you will eventually be in withdrawal. It's no different than and alcoholic or drug addict.

You will eventually be able to look back on this and not have what you think are "feelings" for the OW. Unfortunately, you will probably have the most shame and guilt you could ever suffer in a lifetime. Especially since you did this twice with the same woman. I would encourage you to work through the self-loathing part as well.

If you love your W and even if you don't think there is a chance to save your M, you deserve to break this cycle and get in touch with what's really going on in your life.

Infidelity is a very sad situation....very very sad. Hurts people as much as death.

I wish you luck in finding your answers.

It's all really so very, very simple:

Decide what you want and then DO THE RIGHT THING.

~Marie

local boy,

You have to grow up.

Decide for yourself what love is and then act on it. It is so on the fence to say you are "in love with" your wife and then you cheat on her.

I once asked this of X-MM: "Just exactly who is it that you can love? You can't love me enough to help (or not hinder) my getting out of this degrading ****ing relationship, and you can't love her enough to be faithful to her."

I asked that of him and got no answer, of course.

But now ask this of yourself. And arrive at an answer. For all of your sakes. C'mon. You are acting to get your sexual needs met. Act to be a grownup and figure out how you can get those needs met in your marriage. It takes a mature adult to sustain a monogamous relationship and you are not an adult, yet.

You just have to choose.

"I knew what was going on but could not stop and turn the other way."

.... and this is your excuse?

Then what the hell are you going to do in the future?

"oops, I did it again" .... you and Britney would get along fine ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I would advise your W to "cut bait" on you ... unless you could come up with something of more substance than this pitiful remark ....

Pep

[ August 28, 2003, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

"She is not taking it to well"

Oh really? Just what would be your definition of "taking it well" when a person learns they have been betrayed the second time by their beloved spouse?

Did you want a bouquet of red roses with a note: " Honey... Thanks for screwing another woman (again) and breaking my heart (again). I adore your little cheating heart pookeykins."

Give me a break. "Taking it well" means letting you walk all over her?????

Are you nutz?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

[ August 28, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Local Boy,

I can only tell you that 2ofaKind's word are so true.

2oak is giving you the best advice you can get. I know some of the things your W maybe feeling right now. I'm the BS and my W still works with OM. She does some of the things 2oak has laid out. She still works there only because there aren't any other jobs she can move to right now (I hope). But not a day goes by that I don't think about the possibility of the OM tring to renew the relationship and her slipping and giving in. It's not a good situation for recovery, as I think you already know.

Good luck and God bless. I'm praying for you.

S&C (one more local boy) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Local boy - welcome to MB. I am the WS in my situation, and understand more than you know how confusing it can be to comprehend the logic behind an A. Why is that, we ask? Because truthfully, there is no logic.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know that I am still in love with my wife and want to know the true reasons why someone in love with there wife could do such a hurtful thing over.
<hr /></blockquote>Local boy, you ask a question that can only be answered by you. The part that you need to work on is looking into yourself for the reasons. Each of us could "justify" why we cheated - our spouses weren't meeting our EN's, we didn't feel like they really loved us, the OW kept calling, etc. You know what - those things may have truly happened. They may have contributed to us being vulnerable. But they did not MAKE us walk through the infidelity door. Only we ourselves can be responsible for that decision.

One of the most important things I have learned on this website which has helped me the most in my personal recovery is the art of protection. I went through withdrawal to OM before I confessed the A to my H. I won't lie to you and say it was easy. We would each say no contact. And usually, he would break down and e-mail me. I would give in thinking we could just be friends. Before we knew it, it would escalate again.

Finally, I reached a point where it was insanity. I could not take it. I could not hurt my H more. I could not hurt myself more. I could not hurt OM's family any more. So I confessed. Not 2 hours before I confessed, OM paged me. I did not give in. 3 days after I confessed, OM e-mailed me. I did not open it and let my husband respond then delete it. I admit, I was lucky. I was so concerned with my H leaving that I truthfully did not wonder or think about OM. Sheesh, I'm still worried about my H leaving!

You do have to make a decision. But maybe your decision should be for yourself. Do you want to be proud of yourself? Do you want to be someone you would like? Do you want to live your life according to morals and values you once had? Do you want to find happiness within yourself?

Once you are able to answer these questions, then move onto the question of why. Not why did you hurt the person you loved the most, but why did you make the decision you did. After you tackle that fish, then you can move onto the part about what can you do to prevent it from happening again. There's where 2oaks advice is really important - prevention is no contact ever again. NC has to start now and continue forever. Is your M more important than OP? It may seem nearly impossible, but you were fine without OP in your life before - you can do it again. NC begins now. Instrospection begins now.

Don't tackle too much at one time. Learn about yourself, local boy. That's all we can do from this experience is learn from it. Become stronger - learn to love yourself. If you are lucky enough to have this chance, your W will see the change, and will respond.

I feel for you local boy - I really do - I was there, too. I hurt my H to the core of his being, and I may never forgive myself for that. But I can from this point on try to be the best person/wife I can for him. He may not even want me. But I also have to be the best person for myself.

Take care, lb. Keep posting. Believe it or not, but some of the "tough love" here will help you stick to your guns - even when you are weak. Good luck, and keep in touch.

deleted to keep the MB police from starting a high speed chase on my [censored].... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ August 28, 2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Pepper

Back off hon, you are kinder than that. Let's let him take a breath here for a minute. I was confused at first too, let's let him figure out what he's done to himself and not chase him off.

Local - Pepper has a point (just no patience <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) in your first post you said more about OW and OW's needs than you did about wife and her needs and her broken heart.

You are not getting something important and time is real short for you. Your main problem is that you are protecting the OW and thinking of how losing her boyfriend will hurt her.

Your wife is the one to protect, she may kick you in the nuts right now but what she needs more than anything is some security and protection.

The only way you are going to be able to provide that to her is by putting her first. Clearly what you wanted and what OW wanted have been a priority. So important that you lied to your wife, your friends, your children?? Mull that over, that is not healthy.

I get it OK? Prior to d-day I was more concerned with hurting the OW's feelings than doing the right thing and protecting the woman who I intend to grow old with... not smart buddy.

Come back and post, don't get scared off.... when you start showing more compassion for your family and less for the person who is trying to break it up even those meanies like Pepper will lay off on the recriminations and start helping you (she used to yell at me too, getting my head out of my a$$ was a group project <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

dear local boy--listen to 2 of a kind. he does know about this. and yes he did take a tone of bashing in the beginning---happily his head is out of his a$$ and focused on recovery. he has done great. and dont mind pepper, she is one of the wisest here---and she only bites once in awhile. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

this is a community of caring people like ive never known. they have saved my life. if you can get past some of the bluntness, these people will lift your spirit and love you purely.

keep posting.

I only bite those I love... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Welcome to MBers LocalBoy,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It must mean that you did not have any feelings for the other person.
<hr /></blockquote>Feelings are situational. They come and they go and they change. What kind of a life does one have if they live their life based solely on their feelings? Chaos and confusion, kind of like what you're going through right now.

Our important life decisions, like remaining faithful to our spouse, must be based on something more than situational feelings or you run the very real risk of being the cause of pain and hurt in the lives of those who love you the most. If your loved ones happen to be the kind of individuals who live and act beyond what they feel( like telling you to get lost) you might get lucky and end up on the receiving end of forgiveness. No healthy person in their right mind will permit themselves to suffer the devistating emotional abuse of betrayal more than a time.... or two, if you happen to be very lucky. Your wife sounds like such a woman from what you describe. Will you get lucky? I'm pretty certain she probably isn't close to "feeling" like gracing you with anything that even looks close to forgiveness just yet. However she may be, if you can ever do the internal work inside yourself to discover that living life is more than acting on feelings and show her the new man you become through your personal work and demonstrate CONSISTENTLY that your basis for living your life goes far beyond what you feel at any given moment. Try a personal relationship with God (I am NOT talking religion here), LocalBoy. It will give you the best shot at making it for yourself, and if you are lucky enough to get the opportunity, to make a new marriage with your dear wife as well. We may hit you over the head here but we will pray for and encourage you as well.

Remember, your words won't mean a thing to her for some time to come. If you want any chance of keeping your wife, you'd best get busy showing her. She's not going to be as patient or understanding with the second slap in the face and second punch in the gut. Quick, get to work if you want any chance of a real recovery.

[ August 28, 2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]

Attagirl Pepper...

I knew if we gave you some string and a saucer of milk you'd ease off {{{{Pep}}}}

Local, check in.

Y'all be gentle til the 10th, this FWS will be gone tomorrow to take BS out of this silly country on a working vacation overseas.

Local - Suggestion to avoid bloodshed. Good discussion topics while I am gone would be ones that focus on your wife's needs and how best to apply your lips to her rear. Maintain the no contact with OW til I get back and focus on the wife til then and things will be brighter for you then - promise.

Girls - play nice, he's here and he's trying...

Hi Localboy

Welcome to MB!!!

Yes you are giving a ton of support from people here for being a newcomer and I'm happy for that.

So for your question... Any solutions??? well yes you have given plenty and the best ones regarding your current situation, you might be overwelmed by all of them, but keep in mind those came from people who walked already your "path" somehow, and there is this saying...

By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
Second, by imitation, which is easiest;
and third by experience, which is the bitterest.
-Confucius

Well localboy... I got to tell you stick to the imitation now... and work on it like crazy! if you really want to save your M anyway. Reflection might take a lot of time. that you can not afford, and it seemed you didn't learned by experience.... maybe this time is different?

Well time you can not afford. You already wasted that one.



So localboy, back to you in a way your situation is "like" mine on that aspect, so I'm going to try to give you some insight on what your wife "might" think about that aspect also.
I'm aware that I may be WAY off base, but anyway I'll share mine.

I'm the BS, I'm 34 y/o my H is 35 and the WS. We M when we were 25 and 26.

At the begining I was terrified of having kids, not being able to provide them with all the things that I was given, and also I wanted to have a rock solid relationship before that... On the other hand my H is a kid lover and always wanted them badly... well guess what? BIG mistake. That "dream" never came true at least until now it has not and I have severe doubts (I'll explain that later)... Anyway I didn't payed attention until too late (in age, but I know we still got the chance), I mean after 3 years of me being off the pill, and yes we had regular S, still the kid didn't came, so we decided to find out what was happening and went to the Dr., long story short, my H is infertile. That somehow triggered his "manhood"... result among other things I gave that option to God, he went and had an A.

Why I have my doubts on that now? And why I'm saying run like mad on all your issues? well it seemed your wife wanted them, and you didn't. I don't know your reasons, but I explained mine. Right now... I'm at the age of where your wife was 3 years ago. And you can belive me, I don't want this to happen to me by FAR in the future.

So right now we are working in our issues and trying to fix our M, but my clock is ticking, now I want the kids and of course that I want them with my H, but I'm not willing to accept a NO on a treatment, or even consider adoption. I'm not to beat my head against the wall on this. And I understand this is as ALL God's choice, but if I have something to chose on this, after my clock reachs the time I set up on this, I'll step away from my M and my H, and give me a chance to have this with another man who is willing to do all it takes to have it.

So this might be an interesting thing for you to think over.

Take good care

[ August 29, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: MBMagnolia ]

I have made some small edits on this thread to protect the privacy of some members. There was NOTHING wrong with what was posted or edited.
Thanks for your patience.

Magnolia

Howz it, Localboy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Orchid

Hi,

I found this article on another MBer's sig line.

Affair's Understanding What Went Wrong

Hope this helps, I found it very interesting.

take care,
L.

[ August 29, 2003, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Dear Localboy,

Do you realise just how cruel you are being to TWO women?

Let`s for get about your lovely W for a minute and focus on the OW.

What you are doing to HER is very cruel. You are using HER.

Do you intend to make a life with her? If not you are stringing her along. Using her to fufill your own needs. By restarting the A UNLESS you intend to divorce your W and take off with the OW you are giving OW false hope. If you do not intend on making a life with her why are you doing that? If you care about OW so much why are you hurting her?

Back to your lovely W.

Why are you being cruel to her? Why have you not filed for a divorce? If she is not what you want/enough for you why have you not set her free? What exactly has she done to deserve this kind of pain TWICE? If you really care about your W then why not let her go? Why on earth would you want her to be unhappy. And she is VERY unhappy.

This post may sound like a flame but it really isn`t. It`s a wake up call to bring into focus how YOUR actions are affecting the lives of two women you profess to care about. You need to take a step back and see the big picture. Your actions are hurting BOTH women you say you care about.

Do you understand this? I think perhaps you don`t and that is why you reignited the A. I think if you understood how your actions hurt the OW as well as your W you may have thought twice. You don`t seem to have any qualms hurting your W but perhaps the realisation your are ALSO hurting OW might sink in.

My H finally understood this and that is why he was able to do NC with his EA woman and he made it stick. He didn`t want to hurt HER. He didn`t want to use HER anymore.

You need to look deep inside yourself to try and figure out why you have put your wants and needs above those you care about. There is a reason why you consistently do this. And it`s not your W or the seductiveness of the OW that has made you do this. It is something inside of YOU that needs to be addressed.

Whether you remain married or not.

If your W chose to marry you, you obviously have some very positive qualities. It is such a shame that your have issues that have lead you down this road. You need to figure them out and fix them.

And make a promise to yourself and those around you that you will no longer be cruel to ANYONE.

Local Boy, you make my blood run cold.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just to let you know about the other woman. she is a coworker of mine. we started out talking to each other about personal things and it went crazy from there. <hr /></blockquote>My H had an affair with his assistant. I found out about it after six weeks and he ended it. Or so he said. So why is there ice in my veins? Because now, fifteen months since I found out and he supposedly ended it, she STILL works for him. He has refused to get rid of her, citing all manner of excuses why he "can't" fire her or transfer her: she may file a wrongful termination suit, or a sexual harrassment suit, or he'd have to tell his partners what he's done in order to explain transferring a good worker (and yes, she does do good work - of all kinds, apparently), or, and the most outrageous excuse yet, why should HER life be ruined? She NEEDS this job; she doesn't DESERVE to suffer in any way.

This woman was my friend, or so I thought. So I've suffered a double betrayal. My H's insistence on keeping her has been a huge roadblock to our recovery. I don't trust him because he's decided that his career is more important than our marriage and my peace of mind. He doesn't understand why I don't trust him. (Can such an intelligent, well-educated man REALLY be that stupid?) And he's insulted by my lack of trust, and he pouts and continues to blame me for "causing" him to have an affair.

Sure, I made mistakes in the marriage. I admit it readily, and I've made many, many changes. But his insistance that he had no choice but to have an affair because he was so unhappy, coupled with her continued presence, causes me unending, agonizing torture. I've lost nearly 40 pounds because every morning, as he's walking out the door to go to that office, I'm in the bathroom losing what little food I've managed to put in my stomach. My blood pressure is too high, despite medication, and I am beginning to realize that what he's willing to give me as a recovery isn't nearly enough to keep me forever.

Working with her is an insult to me; it is humiliating to me; it tells me that my H is more concerned with his career than with his wife. This tells me that he's decided to keep our marriage at risk so no one finds out what a rat he really is. His problem has become my problem. Sure, he can deal with it. No problem. Now I have to decide if I can, and if not, I can decide to leave. And that's just about the continued contact AFTER the affair

And now I see that it IS possible to rekindle an affair when the parties involved continue to have contact.

Why would your wife want to live through that again? I'm glad she threw you out; she's found the only way she can protect herself and her heart from your self-indulgent, abusive actions. She knows that what's really important to you is your own pleasure; she knows she doesn't even register on your radar screen.

And you did that. And my husband is doing that too.

So now you want a second chance? Buddy, it just may be too late. I know if what I suspect about my H is true, he won't be getting any second chance from me. No way will I expose myself to that kind of spousal abuse again. I love myself way too much to make any more sacrifices of my code of ethics for a liar and a cheat who doesn't respect me enough to protect me from himself.

Yeah, this is probably a lot harsher than some of the other replies posted to this thread. Tough. This is the way it is from the OTHER side of the equation. Too hard to swallow? Too difficult to look at yourself and see what you've allowed yourself to become? Deal with it.

And then do the right thing.

CHANGE JOBS!!!!! NOW!!! TODAY!!! WRITE A NO CONTACT LETTER TO THE OW AND LET YOUR WIFE READ IT AND MAIL IT!!!!! TURN OVER YOUR CELL PHONE RECORDS, COMPUTER PASSWORDS, OFFICE VOICEMAIL AND ANYTHING ELSE TO YOUR WIFE AND BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERY SECOND OF YOUR DAYS AND NIGHTS!!!

And then get down on your knees and pray that your wife still loves you enough to give you a last chance.

Because make no mistake about it, if you do get a chance, that's what it will be - the final one.

Never confuse your career with your life.

Don't blow it.

Local Boy:

You've gotten some very good and insightful posts. Read them over and over.

But did you read Legalette's post above? That's reality. It hurts. It sucks. But it's the every-single-day-reality for a BS who has the OW constantly thrown in her face via work contact after the affair.

You may not get another chance. No one could fault your BS for NOT giving you yet another chance. That's her decision. BUT, if you're a decent man you'll do your VERY best to make this up to her -- regardless of her ultimate decision.

Oh, and the OW should NOT factor into ANYTHING from this moment on. She should be NOTHING -- do you understand? What she does/where she is/what her feelings are...NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Your wife and your relationship with her are EVERYTHING. I suggest that you never forget that again.

Good luck.

Lori

Local Boy,

How are you doing? I hope you don't mind that I used your post to help out another WS in distress. See even when one is having a hard time, even then they can still be helpful to others. Don't give up fighting for what you know is right. Don't give into the odds.

L.

bump just in case Localboy comes back!

Local Boy,

I have been thinking a lot about you and your W. It saddens my heart to personally know of and see such pain. U & I have never met yet through your W, I feel like I know you, bro'.

Something deep inside of me feels that one of the reasons why you haven't posted maybe due to some of my postings. Was I too harsh on you? It certainly wasn't meant to hurt but help. Really.

However, if I did hurt your feelings, I apologize. I am sorry for keeping you away from good medicine, right here @ MB.

Please don't let the postings of one person keep you away from what can help you. I will keep my distance and hold my tongue.

You have a beautiful W and I am sure she has a handsome H. I want to share with you a post from my H that he made on Becca's thread.

" <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orchid's H:
This is Orchid's H again. Don't anyone get their hopes up that I'll be a regular here, but I just decided check other's comments here on this. ......

Also, it's NEVER too much to ask forgiveness. If Becca is genuinely repentant & trying to work on making things right again, he needs to do his part to help. I can guarantee this, had Orchid acted like Becca's H, I would be long gone. It was only because she showed genuine forgiveness, understanding, patience, & love that helped me stay where I belong. ......<hr /></blockquote>This is from a man who one time said he made a mistake marrying me. From a man who blamed me for the A. Who complained that I wanted to control him and tell him what to do.

Now I couldn't have been both since I basically haven't changed from then to now. But see how his attitude changed? He knows where he belongs and had to fight to get that back.

Am I proud of my H? A bit. I don't like to exaggerate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am sure your W would like to be proud of U 2.

take care, bro'.

Aloha,
L.

Local boy - have you ever heard the story about Solomon and the two women who were fighting over a baby. Solomon decided the only "fair" thing to do was to cut the baby down the middle so each of them could keep some of the baby.

The real mother who really loved the baby refused Solomon's answer to the dilemna and said to let the baby go with the other woman. She was ready to "release" the baby to the the Other Woman in order to possibly preserve its life. Perhaps she would see him later when he grew up and started thinking clearly and realized that the woman he lived with was NOT the one who loved him "best".

Local boy, YOU are that baby in your drama of the moment. Someone who truly loves you has "let you go" because they do love you but will not keep just a part of you. Either it's all of you or none of you. Which will you choose, oh Local Solomon boy? Divided love, like divided loyalites, cannot survive. All it can do is drive you to insanity and leave you feeling hollow, withered, and fake.

There is a war that goes on inside you, Local boy. It is the war of the flesh and the spirit. If you do not have the indwelling Spirit to aid you.....hope that Solomon will offer a solution even though he has been dead these thousands of years.

God bless. Now go and to the right thing, as Dr. Laura says every day.

Thank you, everyone, for trying to help my H.

I feel I must answer Nerlycrzy's unanswered "background" question:

Married for 16 years.

He's now 40, I'm 37. Unable to have children--doctor's cannot find a reason why. (This may be key...our infertility work up started four years ago, just before the A. He refused to hear of adoption or foster parenting--a decision that deeply hurt me, but I consciously decided to accept and live with, out of my love for him)

The 1st EA/PA, three years ago, lasted about 6-10 months before the A was discovered. He never confessed to me. I had to learn the truth from the ow's H and their boss.

The 2nd EA/PA restarted 8 months ago. Again, he never confessed to me. I found her cell phone number on a "call received" on his cell phone...and had to do a major investigation to get the truth. He lied and denied everything, even tried to spin lies to cover the damning phone records, until I got audio tape proof that he couldn't deny.

With the 1st A, I kicked him out...but his family and the MC he dragged me to (a dysfunctional woman who said we didn't need any more counseling after the 2nd session) told me needed to take him back, he learned his lesson, he seemed like the kind of man that would follow through on his reform promises. Even Steve Harley who we counseled with for a few months, said this. And they both said that "No Contact" was not necessary in his case. No IC was sought.

Except I sought the knowledge from SAA and the forum on In Recovery, related all I learned to H--who wouldn't read a thing. HNHN, LB's, EN's, the policies, POJA, all the tools were in place. I made the majority of the changes he said he needed. He did a few, but reverted back. And then there was the missing "No Contact" rule that he said he could handle. He'd avoid her at work, but he also avoided "hurting her feelings", so that it was a mixed message, I think I understand from him.

After a year, we did an in vitro trial...4 embryo's. Lost them all, cause unknown.

I should not try to relay his feelings about me, the OW or himself...but I imagine that he still felt responsible for her & her "predicament", in some way. As well as enjoying the feeling of getting his needs met by a W dedicated in recovering her marriage, as well as getting them met by a desperate OW, and not having to do too much in return except to grace us both with his presence once in a while.

But H was, for all intents and purposes, a reformed WS...for 2 years. The xow never gave up. After the first A she divorced her H, gave up custody of her kids, declared she would wait for him forever and made a show of how open she would be to restarting the A. She never dated others...and waited for him to weaken. Her picture is in the dictionary under the word "tenacious".

(Twyla has made mention that based on some of the OW's behaviors she's heard about, she appears very "childlike" and needy. Perhaps ow has, in some sick way, allowed my H to express his thwarted parenting side. However, that's one for him and his IC.)

He has been very eager to learn what respones he has gotten, but simply cannot get to a p.c. on his own (his first few posts were on mine)...and would require alot of tutoring to find his way to this forum once he did.

So, I've done the next best thing and downloaded (finally! I was having some problems there...unable to print anything after the 5th response!). Will give him the printouts this afternoon.

I know all your wonderful responses will only help him in his self discovery. He's starting to get very thoughtful, humble and real with himself now.

One thing I have to add...in person, he is one of the nicest, neatest guys you'll ever meet. It's just he's also become (only in the last four years) incredibly selfish in getting his emotional need for admiration met (major self esteem issue). Like a bottomless pit that can never be filled in a normal monogamous relationship. Whether he can pull himself out of that mode, no one knows.

He's currently living on his own. Going to church, bible study and IC starting this week.

Mahalo, everyone.