Post deleted by jaguar - Marriage Builders® Forums

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Originally posted by JazzeyGirl:
I truly am starting to believe that we were not meant to be together.

<hr /></blockquote>No one is "meant to be together" .... that is naive romantic hogwash we were fed as little girls via fairytales.

If you don't want to work on your marriage, say so. But there is no destiny or pre-determined person we were meant to be with .... no one person with whom you will find trouble-free bliss without effort.

All relationshiops have problems. Decide if you want to work on this relationship and it's problems.

Pep

JG,

Girl, I know what you're going through! My H didn't want to face the M problems until I had "had enough". He wouldn't let me go, either, and eventually wore down my defenses. Or I should say, I let him wear them down. He finally convinced me he would do anything to win me back and keep me here.

I believe your H when he says he is willing to work on the issues NOW. He will have to stop feeling sorry for himself, and you will have to sto enabling his childish behavior. If you want him to act like a man, then treat him like a man. Stop punishing him, but stand firm on what you need. He needs a wife, not a mother, and, unless I miss my mark, he will surprise you at how responsible he can be, once you decide to treat him like an adult.

Good luck to you both. You have a rough road ahead of you, but you can travel the road together and lean on each other, or stumble down the road on your own.

BTW, I DO believe that some people are "meant for each other", but I don't believe that means the road is smooth or without problems. My H and I have had many rough patches, but in the end we have always found our way back to each other. That tells me that we were meant to be together.

Misty

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Originally posted by JazzeyGirl:
I do love my H but I also know that I cannot continue to live this way. It is so hard letting go.

<hr /></blockquote>You don't let go of the love. You keep that forever.

What are you letting go of?

It might help you if you try to name what it is that you want to let go of.....

You are letting go of the M of your dreams .... I realize that. But, letting go of a dream, when you think about it that way .... isn't so bad.

You can let go of the M dysfunction prior to and during the A .... that's a great thing to be letting go of.

You can kiss your innocence good-bye .... that's for sure. That's what pissed me off so much after D-day .... lost dreams and shattered innocence .... but, life is tough, and we must be tough to survive some things life brings. Once we kiss off our innocence, we can be sure to replace it with strength and lessons learned.

So, what are you going to be GLAD to be letting go of? Start there.

Then look for what you are clinging to, and really look at those things you are trying to hang on to, and see if they are really useful for you right now. And if there might be something healthier to replace those things you're reluctant to let go of.

Look for what is true, what is healthy and what makes you a better woman ..... and once you get a handle on those things, decisions are easier to make..... not that it still won't be tough .... but you won't feel so lost.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I had 2 things written in lipstick on my bedroom mirror during my husband's A and our early recovery.

Perhaps they might help you?

"This, or something better" (but you have to let go of THIS first)

And...

Pain is a given, misery is an option.

JG, I am so happy to hear that you and your H will be going to counseling.

A couple of things my H and I did prior to going to an IC and then MC (same person) was to make copies of all the MB questionairres we'd filled out, also gave her the MB website..wanted to make sure she was going to be on the same page we were.

We also made individual lists of things we felt we needed to be treated for...this ultimately lead to our treatment plans with the IC.

Good Luck!

Oh Jazzy, I am so sorry you are having to deal with this right now. As sappy as it sounds...better days ARE ahead. Negative thoughts can fill your head and carry your mind to dark place very quickly. Try to focus on anything and everything that is good in your life right now...more will follow.

So glad you are seeing a counselor. I hope she can help. Take care.

I just got this via email. Maybe it's for you!

The 92-year-old, petite, well-poised and proud lady, who is fully dressed each morning by eight o'clock, with her hair fashionably coifed and makeup perfectly applied, even though she is legally blind, moved to a nursing home today.

Her husband of 70 years recently passed away, making the move necessary.

After many hours of waiting patiently in the lobby of the nursing home, she smiled sweetly when told her room was ready.

As she maneuvered her walker to the elevator, I provided a visual description of her tiny room, including the eyelet sheets that had been hung on her window.

"I love it," she stated with the enthusiasm of an eight-year-old having just been presented with a new puppy.

"Mrs. Jones, you haven't seen the room ... just wait."

"That doesn't have anything to do with it," she replied.

"Happiness is something you decide on ahead of time. Whether I like my room or not doesn't depend on how the furniture is arranged. it's how I arrange my mind. I already decided to love it .

"It's a decision I make every morning when I wake up.

"I have a choice; I can spend the day in bed recounting the difficulty I have with the parts of my body that no longer work, or get out of bed and be thankful for the ones that do.

"Each day is a gift, and as long as my eyes open I'll focus on the new day and all the happy memories I've stored away ... just for this time in my life.

"Old age is like a bank account .... you withdraw from what you've put in. So, my advice to you would be to deposit a lot of happiness in the bank account of memories. Thank you for your part in filling my Memory bank. I am still depositing."

Remember the five simple rules to be happy:

1. Free your heart from hatred.
2. Free your mind from worries.
3. Live simply.
4. Give more.
5. Expect less.

Jazzy, I know it's sickening that this woman doesn't appear to be paying for the pain she's caused in your life. But you can't see everything. Even if the court system doesn't give her what she deserves...she's bound to dig herself another hole. She'll reap what she sows one day.

I hope you get some sleep.

Nothing will happen quickly. If you can come to accept that fact...and let go of the expectations and thoughts of where you think you should be and how you think you should feel...you might actually make progress quicker!

She WILL be out of your lives eventually.

Your marriage issues will be resolved or absolved, eventually.

You will have this baby, eventually! And that one cana be counted on the calendar a little more precisely.

Understand that your current situation, ESPECIALLY with you being pregnant, is going to cause your feelings and thoughts to change a lot. Just because you feel hopeless, doesn't mean things are. Just because you feel really good, doesn't mean things are. Things are what they are...and how you feel is just that...how you feel.

Confusing??

Consider this. If the 'talking' isn't getting you anywhere right now...then don't. I don't mean don't speak to each other...but just avoid the relationship talks right now. Just treat each other with respect and don't make emotional demands out of one another for a while. A couple of things need to happen before really clear decision making can occur. The court issue needs to be done, out of the way, and completely quiet for a while (so that level of emotion can come down). Your H needs to continue in his counseling for a while. And you need to have that baby for a while!!

So give all of this some time. It didn't come to be overnight (cept the baby!!!), and it won't go away overnight.

Hi JG
I really don't have any great advice but just a big thank you for the positive post that you left for me inspite of the turmoil in your life.

Jazzy may I put something to you that my wayward wife said when we looked back at 17 years worth of a dysfunctional marriage.............

"don't let all those years be in vain"

You can have a better marriage after an affair even more important perhaps you can drop the dysfunctional before the word marriage.

Our Story:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=009539

Looking back I asked all the same questions you did and yes those questions went beyond the affair and looked at the whole length of our dysfunctional marriage.

I am going to share something left for me on this computer screen when I came home tonight. It was written by the same person who through all her pain was so self absorbed she never took time to think about me:

Hello Love,

By the time you read this I will be well on the way to putting the last piece of the past to rest. As I graduate this group, I feel like the end of a very long era has finally arrived. Not just the last two years but the last 20…….. I have started out the new group with a new lease on life thanks mostly to you. I know that this is a TOUGH week for you. I am sensitive to that fact more than you know. I will remain strong and supportive for you no matter what. I hope that you/we can see this time not as the end of a bad time but the beginning of a new and better life for us. Please know in your soul that I love you more than life itself. When I tell you that I don’t know where I end and you begin, I truly mean that. You are a part of me and I don’t know how I survived all this time with such a large piece missing. Please know that I dedicate my life and my heart to you and our marriage. I am sorry that it took me so long to “grow up” but I had a few obstacles in my path. Thank you for clearing a path for me to find my way to you. Please just hold on a few more days and I pray that we can finally have the life we have waited for and that you so richly deserve. I support you as you make the decisions for us regarding the business. But more importantly I support whatever will make you happy. I only ask that you allow me to be a part of your life so that I can now help you achieve the things that will make you feel whole.

I will be counting the minutes until I can hold you close and tell you as often as necessary that…….. its gonna be O.K.!

I love you with all my heart and soul………………………..Bunches

This is the last trigger week where I look back and know she spent most the week with the OM in New Orleans. The last time they were intimate if such a word applies to an abusive relationship because this was the trip he proposed to "share" her.

You see had I given up like I often thought about doing...... "all those years would have been in vain" and I never would have found the real woman I loved beneath all her messed up past.

[ October 14, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]

STFR...WOW!!! She definitely sounds like someone worth fighting for!

JazzeyGirl...please find a way to get to a spot where you can give counseling a chance..both for you and your H....give it some time...give it your best shot!

Jazzey much of what your wrote applied/applies to me.

I felt like her big brother for all those years. So I can relate.

I still can't buy mushy mothers day, valentines or anniversary cards it would make me feel fake to do so. Especially any card that has the word faithful in it.

Ditto for love songs that talked about soulmates....quick example I routinely play Journey's Greatest Hit CD. I now instantly bypass the song "Faithfully".

Withdrawing from something that hurts is normal and healthy. There was a reason mom let us put our hand on the hot stove...to learn to protect ourselves from pain.

What concerns me here is your feeling that he isn't doing anything to change to alter the marital conditions that led to his poor choice to have an affair.

Have you told him everything that you posted here?

Have you set up a plan that BOTH of you can work on?

If so and he hasn't worked at all on the marriage have you considered going to Plan B?

By that setting some boundaries for recovery but more important shift your focus on making yourself better.

SDFR makes some very good points.

As for the passion thing...I think I remember you posting several months ago that part was going well. Could be several factors effecting that now...pregnancy, exhaustion, hormones...feelings of anger at your H...any number of things.

As for the rest of it...you have had a major traumatic event in your life with the A and the OW afereffects..you are pregnant...this is not the time to be deciding which of your feelings are real or valid.

Don't put pressure on yourself or your H until after you've had the baby, recovered from childbirth and give counseling a chance.

There are no overnight recoveries here...my H and I did it in 3 months which is practically a world record...but we devoted our entire lives to recovery...he's a stay at home dad and I work from a home office. I spent about 2 hours a day on work and rest of the day for months on end were devoted to recovery. You don't have this luxury, so give it some time.

Don't allow yourself to be so negative...just because you don't feel alot of hope doesn't mean you have to be negative...a nuance I know but still...I know you get the gest of what I am saying.

You brought up one of the hot buttons of our whole M....me feeling like his mother alot. This was huge area of contention...he would act like a child, I would react as if he was a child, he would resent me for treating him like a child and I would resent him for making me treat him as a child.

We learned how to recover from this behavior in counseling.

My H was like yours sounds..hard worker, responsible, good father, good H, good friend, etc. But....sometimes he'd do very irresponsible things...usually with money, mostly small stuff but stuff that would drive me crazy!!! We learned in counseling that he did this because he was a passive/agressive, a conflict avoider and because he'd never learned how to deal with his feelings and desires in a more appropriate way.

If your H is going into counseling with an open mind and with a qualified psychtherapist...wonders can happen.

Our IC/MC commonly referred to my H as being temporarily insane at the time of the A and having the psychological tools of about a 12 year old. She helped him to "grow up".

I helped this process along by learning to stop throwing up the past to him (boy was that hard) and to treat him as the person he was becoming. I became his non-judgemental friend and for a Type A, Control Freak like me that was hard!!!!

PAY OFFS WERE TREMENDOUS...I NOW SHARE MY LIFE WITH A FELLOW GROWNUP WHO IS MY BEST FRIEND, LOVER, PARTNER, TEAM MATE, CO-PARENT, ETC.

We still talk through and work things out together. We occasionally back slide into fighting but we catch ourselves and go back into our newly learned communciation techniques...we keep an open mind.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> SDFR . . . doesn't it feel wrong though that you cannot feel those feelings for your W? <hr /></blockquote>Yes it does and part of me resents her for that. She or the affair stole something from I can never get back. My therapists says I will in time. Says I will once again take pride in her, once again trust her....but alas she has no comment when I say "but I will never be able to use the word faithful again".

But that is part of the trade off. A stronger more connected marriage is the upside. The loss of that "innocence" is the downside.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />SDFR . . . a personal question for you. Do you think that you can open yourself up completely to make your M better than it was before?
<hr /></blockquote>Well for me this was easy. First of all I always wanted to be closer to her. I waited to get married until I finished college and since I took a break from college for a couple of years I was almost 27 when I married. I dated a fair amount. Had a modest number of lovers the vast majority of which I was close to I was not a ONS guy for the most part.

So I felt like I knew what I was looking for when I finally married.

So I wanted to be her soulmate. I would tell he regards to intimacy that we were missing out on something special. But in her scarred mind she thought I was just pushing for more sex.

Jazzey this is important. She always said I was her soulmate...even while in the affair. She had no role model of what a good loving relationship. Or as she put she was lost trying to find her way to me but life had left her without a map. She wanted to be more open and closer to me too.

And she did as she worked her way thru therapy and overcame most of her deamons (she still has things to work on but the mountain is a small rolling heal soon to be a molehill).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am just curious because if you can than how do you get past the pain? It does seem that we have/had similar feelings even though the situations are different.
<hr /></blockquote>I really didn't think I could. In fact my sister was with me supporting me when I first found things out. At times I would go to stay at her house early on when things were crazy. She talked to my sister (they were and still are close) and my sister warned her that I was a black and white kind of guy.

I got past the pain because I always wanted a closer marriage and I could see that I would have that if I could get past things....BTW I can't say I am past the pain but the good feelings far outweigh the bad and the pain is fading fast.

And I got past the pain because my wife would not let go. Curse her, run her down, tell her I hate her, tell her she ruined my life, and so on it did not matter she refused to stop loving she refused to let go.

Ironic that scared little girl that was too weak to stand up for her marriage during the affair was strong enough for the two of us after the affair.

Jazzey yes things are very similar for you and me but I see a big difference between my spouse and yours.

Mine was convinced she would lose me over this. That fear drove her.

Now I am not saying you should play games and try and scare you husband into putting more effort in and opening up.

But perhaps he too wants to do this but is paralyzed with fear. Handcuffed by shame and guilt.

I really wish you two could sit down with a trained professional and work on this. His pain tells me he is remorseful and sincere.

But alot of men are not skilled at dealing with their feelings.

I am not your average guy. My dad had an exit affair when I was 1. Mother didn't remarry until I was 10. My iister was my best friend growing up so I always had a deeper respect for women and a greater understanding of them as individuals.

Downside with that is I truly value love and intimacy. Its not a game for me and I take it quite seriously...did so even in my hormone driven teen years. So this hits me harder than just my pride. Adultery goes against my very moral fiber and is one area I did indeed have to learn how to see gray.

Jazzey make an all effort to go to or get professional counseling where your husband will feel safe to open up. Read up and see what you can do to help him with it.

The cost of a divorce money wise is very high even in lightly contested divorces.

The cost emotionally is staggering. Most men are bitter after a divorce slightly more than 3 years. Its even worse for women who are bitter just under 10 years.

Cost of going to counseling, reading up and making the effort......

PRICELESS!

JG,
Before you throw in the towel completely, I would like to suggest one more option. There is a marriage weekend that has had a success rate of 85% marriages surviving as of 2 years later. And these are marriages that consisted of people already considering divorce, not just stale marriages. At our weekend, you could tell as people came in that many were not even on speaking terms. The body language spoke volumes. But by the end of the weekend, there were people snuggling together, laughing, and enjoying each other. If nothing else, you end up feeling that your spouse has really heard your feelings, and it is done in a manner that is very "safe" for all involved. This does not happen in front of others, and their method avoids hostility. The name of the program is Retrouvaille. Their web site is www.retrouvaille.org or you can call 800-470-2230. Please consider it for after the baby is born.
Unfortunately, my husband still had contact with his OW, so things aren't going well for us, but if that were not the case, I think it would have worked for us.