Another question I have - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I have noticed there have been a **few** posters who commented on my previous thread that there was not enough "Marriage building" principles talk. I will try and correct that on this post.

I have a question again. I am a little slow in getting and understanding all of this, so seasoned vets, please bear with me. There is alot of talk on here about EN's, etc.. (or lack thereof) playing a role in being a catalyst for the affair. Ok, I don't necessarily 100% agree, but I can see why many believe this. No real argument there. What I have a question (or problem) with is this concept of fulfilling EN's in the PLan A that Harley advocates. The topic specifically being SEX. Is it just me, or does anyone else have a problem that there is ADVICE given on this board to consent to SF with a wayward spouse WHEN THEY ARE STILL HAVING AN AFFAIR? There are more than a few posters who have advocated doing this, IF it is in the interest of PLAN A and fulfilling HIGH RANKING WS emotional Needs. Harley, if I am correct on this, SUPPORTED this in advice he has given.

Now, I agree that this is a Marriage Building site, but I DO NOT think it is wrong to question ****some*** of the principles. I am a MEDICAL DOCTOR, and without trying to offend anyone, I think that above advice is dangerous and ill advised. ANY BS WHO HAS SF WITH A WS (ACTIVE IN AN AFFAIR) IS COMMITTING AN UNSAFE SEX ACT. If you advise having SF while a WS is active in an affair, you are advising unsafe sex.

HOw in the living hell does anyone advoacte this here? There are a number of you who have done this exact thing and have supported this concept. Can you please help me understand this advice? I am not a marriage counselor, but I am a Medical Doctor, and thus feel I am qualified to render an EXPERT opinion on this. This advice should NOT be advocated, or supported on this board. While I know that I am likely asking to be lynched for taking this stance, I feel strongly that this needs to be brought up for the newbies to read.

Yes, I know that Plan A is about fulfilling emotional needs of the WS, but advising any BS to have SF with a WS (who has not had full STD testing, including HIV testing 6 months apart) IS WRONG....THIS IS NOT A DEBATABLE ISSUE!!! I think Harley is a great guy who has devised an unconventional, yet obviously successful marriage recovery plan, but on this point, he is doing a DISSERVICE to people when he supports SF in an ongoing affair....even if it is during a "Plan" to meet a wayward spouses emotional needs. No before someone comes on here and tries to get semantical about Harley not "specifically" saying this....lets get real. Lets be UPFRONT about this issue.

Well, I re-read this, and considered deleting it, but I don't think I should. I am not attacking the MB principles here, but I defy anyone to give me a rational reason why he (and others) have advised fulfilling SF emotional needs of a WS during a Plan A. PLease help me understand this.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi, lemonman.

Yes, I have a problem with sex during plan A when the wayward spouse has been physical with another person. I think it entirely too risky, potentially life threatening.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi Lemmonman,

I am strongly opposed to advocating SF with a wayward spouse. Strongly.

All of the points that you made, I am in agreement with, absolutely. STDs are an enormous risk.

Of further consequence I think..is the vulnerability. The WS is not your friend, and does not belong in your body. Sex is a binding act. Not appropriate if what you need is detachment. Something better reserved for a special time POST...waaaaaaay post reconciliation.

I believe that SF during an A is VERY degrading to the BS, and could collapse what little sense of independence and self worth they have left.

I understand why it is advocated, and for what it is worth, I think that Harley is correct..continuing to meet this EN probably WILL impact the WS and the affair. I just feel the cost is too great. It's too much to ask.

Fire at will.

Noodle

I agree with all of you. Noodle beat me to the punch with the mention of the collapse of what little self worth the BS has left.

For what it's worth, I DID continue to have SF with my now XH AFTER I found out he was sleeping with someone else. It was my decision--hadn't found MB yet. It was a decision made not out of rational thinking but out of panic. I thought I could maybe "love him back" or give him the excitement that he was perhaps missing.

I found weeks later that OW's past was more questionable than what he first let on. I was tested a month later for everything (which is very humiliating when you have to explain to your OB/GYN why they need to test). The tests at that time were negative. I have not been retested, though I know I should be for HIV. I applied for life insurance a couple months ago and they did a saliva HIV test that apparently was okay. And OW had just given birth a few months before she met my XH, so I figured her doctor had also tested her during her pregnancy for HIV.

I'm hoping that means I'm safe. I'm too scared to go back yet.

But the point is this: Having SF with my WH did NOTHING to save my relationship. It did however make me feel cheaper than cheap, to give the most intimate thing I had to a man who was turning around and giving himself to someone else. It simply put me at risk and allowed him to have his fun with two women until he finally decided he was cheating on one (the OW) by sleeping with the other (his wife).

I think Plan A involves a lot of sacrifice by the BS to prove that they are willing to do whatever it takes to restore them marriage. I DON'T believe that should involve putting their life at risk.

LL

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes, I know that Plan A is about fulfilling emotional needs of the WS...<hr /></blockquote>Plan A is not about meeting the WS's emotional needs. Plan A is about eliminating LB's and creating an environment for negotiating the end of the A.

Harley mentions meeting EN's AFTER the A has ended.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Since one of these causes ( of the affair) is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended.

<hr /></blockquote>I agree that SF should not take place until the A is over AND sufficient testing for STD's has taken place.

edited to add:
I don't think Harley endorses having SF with the WS. I recall reading something along the lines of if your going to do it, proceed with caution! He did not specifically say "Yes, do it", or "No, don't do it."

[ March 14, 2005, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

LM,

Let's see where to start. First, I think one needs to address the purpose of plan A, before the issue of sex. So let me take a shot a that, then address the issue of sex.

If peoples basic responses actually worked well to rebuild marriages, there would be no need for plans or this site. Unfortunately most of are hardwired for "fight or flight" and most of our "intuition" about relationships is NOT very good.

Plan A has several basic concepts. One to stop love busters. Two, to show the WS that there is a path home IF the affair is ended. Three, to acknowledge that the BS understands that they have failed in the marriage as well, and that the BS will endeavor to improve their contribution to the marriage.

NOWHERE does it say "have sex" with the WS. However, if the A is an EA, and a strong need is SF, then why not? If the A was a PA, then LM you are absolutely right, no test, no sex would be the correct answer.

But there is something else that is missed, and that is the BS has to want to as well. So if the BS does NOT desire sex with their WS, and for sake of arguement the BS knows that it was "only" an EA or testing has been done, then there is still no sex.

LM what you see here is that often people just don't protect themselves and frankly they should no matter what plan they are chosen.

Allow one further statement about the "meeting" needs issue. It seems to me this is the ONE thing that is so counter intuitive to most. It is not that failing to meet needs caused the A. The A was the decision of the WS, completely, finally. HOwever, the willingness on the part of the BS to recognize that they made contribution to the state of the marriage often indicates to the WS, that if they come back and end the A, there is a chance that they will NOT be reentering the very same marriage they had before the A and that can be an incentive to coming back and working on the marriage.

One of the things you are already learning here LM, is that if people want "expert" advice on plan A or plan B, they should talk to MC's trained in this approach. Often advice is given with good intensions but it is not complete and HEALTH issues are clearly an area where advice is sometimes over zealous.

There are several that post here and the FIRST thing they tell the BS is get tested and have the WS get tested before they do anything else. Of course some do and some don't, just like the WS will have unprotected sex with OP, and either end up pregnant, get the person pregnant, or contract a STD. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So you are as usual right, if such advice is being given, it should be countered with the much better advice of NO, NOT UNTIL TESTING IS DONE.

Good question as usual.

God Bless,

JL

I am not a BS that has continued to have SF with the WS, even to this day...sorry just not my cup of tea!

That being said...when a BS first finds out about the A they want to "fix" whatever the problem WAS that was lacking in the mariage to begin with...whether it be SF or whatever else...if they didnt' do it enough, they want to do it more now....this is even said in one of the books...I believe it is Surviving an Affair!

I strongly DISAGREE with a BS having SF with a WS while they are knowingly in an A still...

You will also have the WS who SWEARS up and down, sideways and forward that the A is over...jump in bed with Spouse and come to find out the A is NOT over! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

just my .02 cents!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ba109:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> ..<hr /></blockquote>Plan A is not about meeting the WS's emotional needs. Plan A is about eliminating LB's and creating an environment for negotiating the end of the A.

Harley mentions meeting EN's AFTER the A has ended.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Since one of these causes ( of the affair) is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended.

<hr /></blockquote>I agree that SF should not take place until the A is over AND sufficient testing for STD's has taken place.

edited to add:
I don't think Harley endorses having SF with the WS. I recall reading something along the lines of if your going to do it, proceed with caution! He did not specifically say "Yes, do it, or No, don't do it." <hr /></blockquote>Well, this is Harley advice directly discussing the ways for a wife to start with ending an affair by her WH.

"The first step is to be the very best wife you can possibly be. Do everything you can to meet his needs , and don't do anything to upset him. Set a period of time that you think you can do this without getting too upset, say, six months. Once in a while, tell him that you think both of you need a fresh start somewhere else"

NMOw, I was pretty sure someone would come along and say that Harely didn't say that spwecifically. Well, I guess if you want to use semantics, you are more than welcomed to. I am certainly not suprised.

Thanks for your inout into this thread.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Momto3Boys:
 I am not a BS that has continued to have SF with the WS, even to this day...sorry just not my cup of tea!

That being said...when a BS first finds out about the A they want to "fix" whatever the problem WAS that was lacking in the mariage to begin with...whether it be SF or whatever else...if they didnt' do it enough, they want to do it more now....this is even said in one of the books...I believe it is Surviving an Affair!

I strongly DISAGREE with a BS having SF with a WS while they are knowingly in an A still...

You will also have the WS who SWEARS up and down, sideways and forward that the A is over...jump in bed with Spouse and come to find out the A is NOT over! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

just my .02 cents! <hr /></blockquote>MOM:

YOu are the $hit, just thought I would say that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Just Learning:
 LM,

Let's see where to start. First, I think one needs to address the purpose of plan A, before the issue of sex. So let me take a shot a that, then address the issue of sex.

If peoples basic responses actually worked well to rebuild marriages, there would be no need for plans or this site. Unfortunately most of are hardwired for "fight or flight" and most of our "intuition" about relationships is NOT very good.

Plan A has several basic concepts. One to stop love busters. Two, to show the WS that there is a path home IF the affair is ended. Three, to acknowledge that the BS understands that they have failed in the marriage as well, and that the BS will endeavor to improve their contribution to the marriage.

NOWHERE does it say "have sex" with the WS. However, if the A is an EA, and a strong need is SF, then why not? If the A was a PA, then LM you are absolutely right, no test, no sex would be the correct answer.

But there is something else that is missed, and that is the BS has to want to as well. So if the BS does NOT desire sex with their WS, and for sake of arguement the BS knows that it was "only" an EA or testing has been done, then there is still no sex.

LM what you see here is that often people just don't protect themselves and frankly they should no matter what plan they are chosen.

Allow one further statement about the "meeting" needs issue. It seems to me this is the ONE thing that is so counter intuitive to most. It is not that failing to meet needs caused the A. The A was the decision of the WS, completely, finally. HOwever, the willingness on the part of the BS to recognize that they made contribution to the state of the marriage often indicates to the WS, that if they come back and end the A, there is a chance that they will NOT be reentering the very same marriage they had before the A and that can be an incentive to coming back and working on the marriage.

One of the things you are already learning here LM, is that if people want "expert" advice on plan A or plan B, they should talk to MC's trained in this approach. Often advice is given with good intensions but it is not complete and HEALTH issues are clearly an area where advice is sometimes over zealous.

There are several that post here and the FIRST thing they tell the BS is get tested and have the WS get tested before they do anything else. Of course some do and some don't, just like the WS will have unprotected sex with OP, and either end up pregnant, get the person pregnant, or contract a STD. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So you are as usual right, if such advice is being given, it should be countered with the much better advice of NO, NOT UNTIL TESTING IS DONE.

Good question as usual.

God Bless,

JL <hr /></blockquote>JL:

HOw can you crank out such a well written, thought provoking post so fast ????? it takes me 10x longer.

I do want to make a disclaimer here that I hope doesn't get lost in why I orginally posted this thread. I am not going to try and argue EN's and Plan A and Plan B, etc...Lord knows I am one of the last people who should be talking about those plans in genral. I just wanted to MAKE sure newbies got to hear a side of this topic that is near and dear to my heart. The reality is that SEX kills, and I know that many BS are so devestated when an affair happens, that they lose all sense of rationality (MYSELF INCLUDED). Irregardless of Plans and EN's, etc...the message that SHOULD be precahed here is the message of NO SEX untill testing is done. If my message saves at least one person from getting an STD than my point was served. I may take some "hits" from my stance, but it was well worth it.

Thanks for posting.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Well, this is Harley advice directly discussing the ways for a wife to start with ending an affair by her WH.

"The first step is to be the very best wife you can possibly be. Do everything you can to meet his needs , and don't do anything to upset him. Set a period of time that you think you can do this without getting too upset, say, six months. Once in a while, tell him that you think both of you need a fresh start somewhere else"
<hr /></blockquote>This is the advice that Harley gives for meeting EN's AFTER the A has ended. Am I right?

Nowhere in that quote does he mention meeting EN's while the A is ongoing.

lemonman, as soon as I learned that my husband was dating someone and having sex with her, I got sick to my stomach when I thought about him touching me again. Not even having to do w/STD's...it just seems like such a violation and I would feel so used.

I don't know if it would be different if we were living together, but since we've been separated since June...I just can't even picture kissing him anymore, let alone sex.

Even the thought of talking to him makes me sick anymore. I sent my Plan B letter a couple of weeks ago and it's not in the hopes that he'll come back to the marriage...it's an effort to help ME get over HIM.

It would take a lot of Plan A'ing on his part now to get things to change..and I cannot even fathom the thought of sex...

ewwww...heebie jeebies....

LM,

If ever there was a situation to "crack skulls" the unprotected and untested sex with WS is surely the time to do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am with you on this as are many others.

In fact one of the things you will notice is that many come here sooo confused, so conflicted, and so uncertain about themselves and their marriage, that they are NOT thinking straight. I do think all us should be much more proactive with the advice to NOT have sex until testing is done, and presumably after the physical part of the A is over, if it occured.

We had a similar discussion about a year or so ago about the "radical honesty" issue with regard to the WS telling the BS about an A. It was pointed out that giving the "blanket" advice to be honest no matter what should be tempered with the realization that some BS' are abusers. The group agreed that telling someone to be honest should be tempered with the suggestion that it be done with a 3rd person around, a plan to stay elsewhere, or in the presence of an MC. Radical honesty is still what is needed but it should be done in a "safe" environment and with some forethought with regard to the person they are telling.

Sort of like safe sex. It is so obvious that we don't think to suggest it, yet many come here so confused.

Must go.

JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ba109:
 LM,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Well, this is Harley advice directly discussing the ways for a wife to start with ending an affair by her WH.

<hr /></blockquote>This is the advice that Harley gives for meeting EN's AFTER the A has ended. Am I right?

Nowhere in that quote does he mention meeting EN's while the A is ongoing. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry Ba109 for misleading you, I belive this is the thread I WANTED YOU TO SEE:

"After you have established what her lover does for her that you don't do, ask her to give you a chance to prove to her that you can do it, too. Give yourself about six months where you go all out to try your best to meet her needs. And be sure you do not wreck it all by being thoughtless or disrespectful. If she is willing, take her with you on short vacations to places she would enjoy. Integrate her into your life, without making her feel that you are trying to smother her and take control. Never make any demands of her time, just offer her opportunities to become a part of you, and express your willingness to become a part of her.

She probably wants a soul-mate -- someone who she feels emotionally connected to. Somehow, over the past few years, she has lost her connection with you. Your six month effort should be designed to help her re-connect to you.

Don't tell her that your plan is only for six months, because that would constitute a threat. Besides, you cannot be sure how long you will last. But at the end of six months, evaluate your progress. If your relationship is improving, you may be encouraged enough to give your effort another six months. Remember that her state of mind will improve if you are depositing love units and not withdrawing them. She may become less defensive and less secretive about her lifestyle. She may also tell you that she has completely abandoned her lover, and is giving you a solid chance to work things out.

But, if at the end of six months, she refuses to stop seeing her lover and doesn't seem to be responding to your efforts , tell her that you can't take the pain any longer and move out of your house. "

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks LM for clarifying.

That excerpt does seem to be a direct contradiction to what he advises when describing Plan A.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ba109:
 Thanks LM for clarifying.

That excerpt does seem to be a direct contradiction to what he advises when describing Plan A. <hr /></blockquote>Hey, no problem. I think at the very least, our discussion will garner more attention to this topic that gets "missed" during the volcano of emotion during a D-Day and subsequent efforts to recover.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Upon Dday and through tears and palpitations, I found myself incredibly horny. I was desperate for his touch but he was writhing around in self-pity and couldn't respond. I think often SF is performed to reclaim what is rightfully yours - almost a competition. I'm sure many BS's who do have sex regret it after a while and worry terribly about the risk of STDs. I'd be interested to know if any BS's here did end up with a disease because of their partner's affair. How humiliating for them.

But, you know, I am separated and face the dilemna that any prospective partner may, in the past, have screwed around. After reading this, celibacy doesn't sound so bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> TT

Lemonman,

You quoted some stuff regarding Plan A---but I'm not sure where it's from (the book SAA???). On the website here, under articles, is this info:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. <hr /></blockquote>You'll notice here that Plan A is to negotiate an end to the affair. You'll notice that it centers around respectful (and honest) negotiation skills, use of the Policy of Joint Agreement, a willingness to end lovebusting, and a promise to address emotional needs once the affair is over. It also addresses the issue of a cake-eating WS (with Plan B).

Also, Harley continues to modify these techniques through his research into what is working for those couples he (and others) are counseling. Public exposure of the affair figures prominently into Plan A now---it was not a major centerpiece of the method when he initially wrote SAA.

In general, most people (Harley included) would agree with your statement regarding sex with a WS. Don't do it, for safety reasons. If you are going to do it, be careful (condoms). Best would be to wait until the affair is over, and after the testing for STDs.

[ March 15, 2005, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: K ]

SF was a major part of MY PLAN. I am absolutely 100% sure that my marriage would not have been recovered unless I did this. I do not feel that others should be discouraged from SF during PLAN A if it works for them.

I am a well-educated person in a profession much along the same lines as you LM without going into specifics.

Sometimes you do what you have to do. Right? It would be ethically questionable whether it was OK for you to care for the OM, right? I'm not trying to be conflictual. I'm just trying to help you to understand. You do what you have to do.

It's almost spiritual like how do you talk somebody into believing in GOD. I knew that having sex with my H was safe. I knew that it was what I had to do. I had neglected him sexually for years prior to the A. It was a primary EN of his not for just physical release. SF is an avenue for his expression of emotions. I was being hateful when I denied him SF. It previously had been a major part of our relationship.

I think each situation is different and it is important not to be judgemental. It is important not to assume that every situation is like yours or should be like yours. It is important to be OPEN-MINDED.

Also it important not to encourage DENIAL. Especially older, middle-aged women like me, have to acknowledge that there are young women out here that are putting out baits to lure in your Hs. My H's affair was not based on just sex. However, it started that way with a young woman allowing him to have his fun with her. I think some women fool themselves into thinking that sex is not as important as it really is. There are young women out here who are not afraid to acknowledge this. There are young women who work with me who openly flaunt their sexuality and they do not have qualms about flirting and going even further with the married men around here. Don't fool yourselves, ladies!!!

[ March 15, 2005, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi,

I would never, ever dispute that SF is an important EN, and that providing that could greatly impact the outcome.

However, I take great issue with your asserted "knowledge" that your H was STD free.

Bullpokey. That's all that is. Just like affair partners just "know" I guess.

There are a great number of BSs on this board who have in fact contracted an STD from their WS and would have done well to steer clear.

Without an STD test, and the appropriate timespan to lend credibility to the accuracy of the results, you don't "know" anything.

You got lucky. Encouraging others to take that risk with their lives because you dodged the bullet is, in my judgement, very irresponsible.

No point saving a marriage if the price is death.

Noodle

I have not read any responses here yet -- just LM's starting post -- and I can tell you that I agree with LM completely on this. I have never been able to understand how, in good conscience, anyone could advise a BS to go right on having sex with a WS whom they *know* is having sex with a third party.

As well as being a novelist, I also work as a medical transcriptionist for a pain management clinic. You would be amazed at the number of people being treated for chronic, debilitating pain due to herpes infections. And you thought all you had to worry about was AIDS?

Even if -- *if* -- you did not have to worry about being exposed to AIDS, syphillis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes and a host of other things, what about the emotional component of all this?

As a female, I cannot think of anything more humiliating than being part of a cheating husband's harem because "that is one of his emotional needs and I'm in Plan A." He has cheated and lied and then been *rewarded* for it by getting EXACTLY what he wanted in the first place -- two women to have sex with!

Where on earth is the incentive for him to stop???

I do NOT understand any wife who could do this.
Mulan

I thought sex was supposed to be a celebration of a deep commitment and love between two people. The most sacred of all sacred acts.

I'm glad Ba pointed out that Plan A is not supposed to be about meeting E/N's and that others beside Noodle and me agree on this point because it was really giving me pause to the validity of Plan A.

However, if like mimi one feels that this is what is needed to recover their marriage and they are okay with it, I would be supportive as it is a personal choice in my opinion.

[ March 15, 2005, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 MOM:

YOu are the $hit, just thought I would say that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM <hr /></blockquote>Does this mean I am full of and look like SH*T <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> OMG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

MomTo3Boys wrote:
***I am not a BS that has continued to have SF with the WS, even to this day...sorry just not my cup of tea!***

Sorry, Mom, I thought I heard on the Dr. Phil show that you *did* continue to have SF with your wayward husband even after you knew about the affair -- did I misunderstand?
Mulan

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mulan:
 MomTo3Boys wrote:
***I am not a BS that has continued to have SF with the WS, even to this day...sorry just not my cup of tea!***

Sorry, Mom, I thought I heard on the Dr. Phil show that you *did* continue to have SF with your wayward husband even after you knew about the affair -- did I misunderstand?
Mulan <hr /></blockquote>You probably heard what THEY wanted you to hear! Fact being, I had SF when I thought the A was over! All the while the alien was still seeing her....call me immature, moronic, whatever, I had no idea they were still together!

I believe the show you are talking about is when he looked at me and said "he had sex with her TWO weeks ago"...I said "yes, I know"...BUT I did not have sex with my H during THAT time! I haven't been with my WH since September, maybe even longer!

Also he said something like he would go be with her then come home and be with you or sleep in the same bed as you! Sleeping in the same bed as me and having sex is totally different! I DID NOT have Sex with him while i KNEW he was actively involved in the A.....I DID have SF with him when I THOUGHT he had ended it!

At this point in my life, I refuse to be with him at all! He has betrayed me over and over again..time and time again...when I THOUGHT and BElEIVED he had ended with her, I let my guard down...

To me sex is very special, and for someone to take it for granted as my WH does, appalls me! I feel used and I am disgusted by him right now! I cant even begin to imagine myself with him!

Hope that clarifies it for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ March 15, 2005, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Momto3Boys ]

I'm so happily recovered in my M that I think that SF was a beautiful part of my Recovery process with my H. I can't explain it well. However, I've been trying to say that it did show my continued deep commitment to him to make that sacrifice during MY PLAN. It was important to me.

If you had been there and knew my situation when I was going through this on the FORUM, you would know that I did get tested and did use precautions and I would recommend this for others.

I'm just encouraging folks not to be judgmental just because it wouldn't work for you.

Like I said, from a professional point of view, I had the advantage of knowing exactly what I was doing.

Right after D-Day, I felt like a lot of you, I moved out of my bedroom. I was encouraged by folks on the Forum, against my natural inclinations, to move back in. Surprisingly,My H began to initiate SF with me and to respond lovingly to me. I think he saw this as a form of forgiveness on my part. That I could eventually forgive him, which I have.

Don't make assumptions. My H did not have a harem. He has not had a host of OW. He fell "in love" with the OW. This is hard for me to explain. Like I said before, it was something that I had to do and I'm glad I did.

SF was a bridge that led him back home. It has always been a sacred time between us that the OW could not capture or measure up to.

D

Mimi,

Tell me what precautions have a 100% success rate against all STDs.

Let's not confuse the issues.

SF with WS IS risky behavior. Whether it contributes to recovery is totally irrelevent. It is unsafe.

Noodle

Noodle: I don't choose to talk about STDs. That's not what I'm here for. You sound argumentative. I don't do that here.

I choose to talk about my marital recovery. That's all I choose to talk about here. I can't understand how talk about this could be irrelevant on this forum.

I don't have a copy of SAA here available for reference. However, I do have the notes from my sessions with Steve Harley. I know every situation is different. However, he told me directly and clearly that my job during MY PLAN was to meet the my WH's ENs that I had not been meeting prior to his A. I needed to make it clear to him that I was able and willing to meet those needs. He pointed out the needs specifically which he assessed in his telepone session with my WH!!!

[ March 15, 2005, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Actually Mimi,

That's not ok with me if you are going to simultaneously encourage and advocate SF with WS as part of plan A while dismissing the very real, very inhibitive health risks that such a decision entails.

You are choosing to talk about it when you advocate it. I'm glad for you that you're recovery is going well, and that your decision to engage in risky behavior with your WS did not result in life long illness.

Make no mistake though..you strongly advocate it as a good idea for anyone while "choosing" to disregard and not discuss the faulty logic to such decision making tools as "I just *knew* it would be fine".

Unless you just *know* that it will be fine for them as well, encouraging them to engage in SF is very irresponsible and, no, that is not OK with me.

I'm not trying to start a war with you Mimi, but this issue is very grave, and I can not sit by and watch silently while you talk about the freedom of jumping off a building while ignoring the likelyhood of impact when hitting the ground.

You have been very outspoken about your approval and good results. I'm asking you to defend a position that I consider very dangerous and harmfull. Nothing more.

Noodle

I'm just living my life. I am what I am. I do not choose to DEFEND my position. I have shared my experiences in the best way that I can.

This is a support group where we all are giving our opinions, really.

We are all here because of traumas and tragedy. It is sad for all of us that we are even here.

I'm sorry you do not agree with me or get what I am saying.

I just know that SF with my FWH was what I had to do and I am glad that I did it. That is the honest truth!!!

I acknowledge that my behavior was risky; It tooke the best precautions that I could. It was risky for me to smoke cigarettes for 20 yrs as well. (I stopped 12 years ago!) I did a lot worse things throughout this A drama than SF. If you only knew..... It's a wonder I am not psychotic! I've never had SF with anyone else except my H!
I don't strongly advocate what I did. I understand someone doing it. It may be a choice that one has to make.

Had you thought that at one point that I didn't mind dying? I felt like that many days throughout this.

I do not choose to go into details about STDs, precautions, etc., mainly because, to be honest with you, my son could possibly reading my posts on this site or other people who might guess who I am.

Noodle, I am not sure why you are so up in arms with me about this.

I do think that you are making assumptions, though, that adults do not know how to take care of themselves.

[ March 15, 2005, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

All I can say is that if I had not insisted my WW get tested I would have been infected.

Don't just assume your S "COULDN'T" have been with some dirty, nasty deseased scum... mine was.

MomTo3Boys -
When you're the "$hit" - that's kind of like saying "YEAH! You Go Girl!"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
 Lemonman,

You quoted some stuff regarding Plan A---but I'm not sure where it's from (the book SAA???). <hr /></blockquote>K:

I just cut and pasted that article from THIS web site. You can go find it RIGHT NOW and HERE under Q&A forum/infidelity (one of the WS as Women questions).

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here about the principles.......I AM NOT QUESTIONING the principles. My intention was just to make STRONG light of a point that I think was very important. It seems that ****most**** of you understand this point. The clear fact that I wanted to make, was that my stance and strong tone in my post was not a judgement of any kind. This topic in good conscious is not debateable.

I think while many here may hate my opinions and stances on many topics here, there is no credible way to dispute what I am saying (and it turns out most of you) regarding SF in an affair. I think the topic is out there and the point was made. I am very happy with this, as if even one STD is prevented, we did the job.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Deleted--double post..sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ March 15, 2005, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

LM:

Am I among MOST of the people that got the point that you were making?

Even though I spent a lot time trying to discuss this topic today, you totally disregarded me.

I thought you wanted others' perspectives. Really your underlying motive was to make a point?

I do think your point is debatable. For you to declare that it not debatable does not make it so.

As far as I am concerned SF during PLAN A is a high risk behavior. However, there is no place where I have seen it written that it is not acceptable or forbidden or discouraged according to MB PRINCIPLES!

[ March 15, 2005, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cruz:


MomTo3Boys -
When you're the "$hit" - that's kind of like saying "YEAH! You Go Girl!" <hr /></blockquote>LOL, cruz...thanks! I was actually just giving LM a hard time! thanks for the clarification though! I am glad that you dont think I look like [censored] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I continued to have sex with Mr Pep during the entire 18 months his affair lasted! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

.... but I just didn't know it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

D-day is the same day as NC-day ... and STD screening was one of my boundaries.

ewwwwwwwwww the swapping of microbes without my permission .... made me sooooo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

.... but I'm over it now ...

Pep