I've been looking at my actions, or rather reactions to my h recently, and I said to my self, oh my gosh I'm doing a natural plan A. So I thought I better come here to get support because it's taking a toll on me.
I just found out a couple months ago now, that the affair I thought was over for a year and a half well never died! And that he felt we needed a divorce, of course when asked why, (since we made so much progress in "recovery") he came up with a short list of really ridiculous reasons. They were all either petty, or well stupid. But I just found out about the fact that he was lying to me all over again, and faking recovery, etc, and that the best year of our marriage including a renewal of our vows, was all a joke, so I never fought the divorce talk. I just tried to understand WHY HE wanted one.
Anyway, no reconciliation talks either. I'm tired, soooo tired. I love the man but I just can't initiate these talks anymore, I can't allow myself to get so frustrated, or let him get a rise out of me. So I am agreeable most of the time now. Well it helped that me finally knowing the truth snapped me out of the last bit of depression I was in, (knowing the truth is sooo much better regardless of what it is for me, the anxiety of feeling your getting fed crap makes me crazy). And I quit smoking so I have a ton of energy.
I'm taking care of the kids and the house in a way I couldn't do through out all of this. It's like I'm better then pre affair! My motivation is not to please him, it's more for me, and for the kids, but it is a bonus that he is happy about it.
Anyway, we are still living together, though in his words "not together", yet we act like a married couple in every way. And we both acknowledge that our "relationship" is improving. My h refers to this as your numbers coming up in the lottery, on the day you stopped playing.
The ow and h share a child together as well, out of this affair. And despite the fact that he did acknowledge the affair continued, and even asked her to marry him. Well immediately after he says they are over... Yeah right.. I don't understand why he wants me to believe this, but I don't. And I've looked in email etc, to prove to myself that it is still going on, and he is still a liar, even though he is being wonderful to me. And yes, still going on, and the things he says to her make me cry. I've confronted him with this. And of course he does the fog babble and gets me on unreal technicalities in his mind, and rages that I invaded his privacy, and because we aren't "together" (like it's a middle school break up) it's none of my business, and has even told me to leave, several times for this..
Of course his "tantrum" subsides, and he's fine, though he has to make me feel like crap in order for him not to go insane I guess, and "keep" me where he wants me. (which he doesn't really have) The last one was the doozy, he said he was moving out of state, and basically leaving everyone including the kids.. Well I "lb'd" all over the place, because that was the last thing I ever expected from him and I thought it was a ridiculous ploy to get attention, and get what he wants. He apparently was also having a battle with ow, about visitation, though it could have been about their relationship , I have no idea.. He got himself in this mess but he is going to explode if he gets pulled on by either.
So I decided just to not pull anymore. Not say anything when I feel I'm being disrespected, etc, not to have ANY real expectations on him like a wife would. Just basically be there for him, like an old child hood friend that I am, and focus on my own life. I get annoyed with some of the situations he thinks are reasonable to put me through right now. But I just focus on the fact that this is NOT going to be my future! I am going to get separated shortly, and right now I just can't engage in anything heavy with him.
I know a big en for him is to not feel like MY feelings etc are more important then his, by over burdening him with them. So I haven’t. I'm being Respectful of him to a REDICULOUSE DEGREE, and feel like I'm disrespecting myself in the process. But it's all for a goal...
If we are to truly divorce I do NOT want it to be ugly. I know if I start demanding all sorts of respect well, he's going to react in his fog way, and I can’t afford to have him as my enemy right now, nor do I want him to be. We share children, and years together, and I want a peaceful break up, if there is to be one.
So I basically have to suck things up for this to happen. I am enjoying all of the good times we are able to have now, while in this natural plan A, and he's responding to it good I guess, because we are becoming a lot closer. But it's so hard because even though he acts like he totally loves me, I know he feels he is "dramatically" in love with her. I just can't handle this truly inside; it just doesn't seem possible with what I am getting from him. But it is.
Anyway I just need some support and guidance with this... I would love to save my marriage but I feel it's not possible with out going through the divorce and him feeling the real loss that he apparently wants, at this point. I just basicly cant fight for our marriage anymore, but still want it.
Though at this point I really feel like he's COMPLETLY torn, he really does love us both.
I honestly have no idea what to do..
thanks for any help you can give me
jmn <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I cant offer you any advise because I too am in a VERY similar situation..all I can say is that I am here to vent to..maybe we can find a way and work through this together
PLAN B...
The whole point of it being called plan A is because there is a Plan that follows...
Plan B...
you have plan a'd too long..
you have accepted and ARE accepting unrealistic and disrespectful actions in to YOUR universe...with no plan for YOU to change any of that....
ARK
Thank you jaded heart maybe, that would be great...
Ark, thanks but I actually never ever did a plan A. Not even in the beginning of all of this. I have been a raving lunatic basically. Shoot there is no way I could really let myself be a doormat, I never allowed any disrespect etc. And perhaps was to unapproachable, for my h. Which is why it is SOOO hard for me to except all of the disrespectfulness that I know is going on right now with him. It's going against who I am to "deal" with this in a calm manor, but I am, because I just can't do anything else anymore. The affair seemed to have died it's natural death, and we seemed to have come together naturally, and I was happy with all of the progress etc.
But the only thing we apparently progressed on was our "friendship" part of the relationship. Everything that is important within a marriage, well just isn't there. Oh there’s love, but not honesty, monogamy, etc... And apparently hasn't been.
So you see I just started plan A naturally, hmm just within this last month, and it is bringing us closer.
I am going to move out anyway, that's the plan, so this is not going to be what I altimetry except from him. I couldn't possibly I'm tooo strong of a woman, and way to emotional. But finally I'm emotionally numb enough to do what I'm doing, and it hit me like a ton of bricks that what I am doing naturally was plan A...
I never did this before because it seemed like manipulation, so plan A and b were out for me, way back in the beginning of all of this. I know it's not manipulation, but that's how it sat with me, and I couldn't do it.
But apparently I am, and I plan on doing just what I'm doing until I CAN get my own place.
I am not going to have my children see less of me because it's time for me to plan b, because it's not. I have been a stay at home mom all of these years, and I need to find a means to support myself and a home for the kids. That's in the works right now. When I can I will reluctantly pull away from my h because I have to. I would have no self worth if I didn't afterwards, with knowing what I know. But I know it will be extremely hard for me when the time comes because, our relationship, in it of it self feels great. Shoot if I didn't know there was an ow, I surly wouldn't think there was now... But I do know, and of course if we did end up working things out, we would have to face real issues like me involved with visitation etc, of oc, I can't deal with feeling how I do, about the oc. I mean for God sake, I don't even know his daughter, just have seen her a couple of times, it's a HUGE DEAL to me. But for some reason I have a hope that we can still do this.
This last month or so has given me great encouragement. And I really just need support. And advice.. Plan B is too premature, simply because I just started plan A, with well giving up, in a sence. I'm not "trying" to get any reasults from him at this point, just trying to servive all of this, but by doing that, well we are getting closer. So I want to see where this goes, it maybe no where, but I need to see.
Even though this affair is almost 4 years long, right now I know this is what I need to do. For more reasons then to even see if there’s a chance with our marriage, but also to insure that things stay peaceful. We were separated during most of the affair in the beginning; this is the FIRST time I have to actually feel what you all go through with having the affair right under your nose. The times it was going on while I was living with him, well I really had no idea. I'm having a real hard time with knowing what's going on, and him looking in my eyes softly and telling me he loves me, or rubbing my hair etc. When I know it is not meant the same way as when I do that to him..
Basically I want to walk away from this relationship knowing that I have done EVERYTHING POSIBLY WITHIN MY CONTROL. And also knowing that ALL of the “reasons” given to me as to why we “need” a divorce are FALSE! I DO NOT want him to find comfort in those copouts when/if we get a divorce. I want him to KNOW that we COULD have something wonderful, because he FELT it…. So when I move out, and ow puts the pressure on him to commit etc, he remembers how things were with ME…..
I have a total plan, and these events have only just started since summer began. Like I said we were "in recovery" before that, and I was NOT having to go threw any of this kind of stuff. But it turns out the recovery well was not real.
Hope this cleared things up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Actually I am more confused...
Are you saying your plan is to plan A and then move towards a divorce
Ark,
Well yes, simply because well that's what HE wants. I'm going to go along and separate, and we will see what happens.
He is saying divorce, that we are not "together" , bla bla, but at the same time is loving what we have, and where we are.
After 4 years, I at least need to separate, regardless of how well, plan "A" is going. TO SHOW him that I can live with out him, and I plan on "respecting" what he wants. Or at least expressed what he wants. If we are to work things out ark, it's going to be under extreme circumstances that must be created. Which is why yes, I plan on separating, and if he wants to file right away, he's going to have to be the one to do it. With an oc involved and the ow so involved with h right now, well if he truly wants our relationship, a lot of things need to change. And as long as I'm under the same roof, he's going to feel like he is in just as much control as he ever was with all of that.
I need to take control away from him. Meaning take control of my life bit by bit, and separate myself from him. Cut him off from a relationship that feels warm and cozy and good. And perhaps that means following threw with the divorce. I'm not going to beg him for this marriage, he should be begging me, with all that I accepted for him, and all I tried to understand. He does not SEE all of this, or he would not be able to do what he is. He does not truly see my WORTH. He has always had me in his life from his early teens, and he well I think, thinks I will NEVER leave him.
But while I’m hear I am going to enjoy all of the good we share, and I will miss it. But if I stayed, I would basically be agreeing to an open marriage. Which I can't do.. Because it's clear NOTHING is going to change under the same roof, regardless of how good things gets. He's figured out how to balance all of it, and keep everyone happy. And well that's to scary for me, honestly..
We might have to divorce to save our marriage.. If that makes sense. I hope not, but I will not fight for it, because I already have.
Sorry to confuse you, we have a lot of, well different dynamics going on in our situation.
I dont find your situation different....
and don't make the mistake of believing that so that it clouds your judgement.....
how old is the OC
how old are your children
do you and he have vistitation
is he financially responsible for all the kids...
what is your vision of your children with with the OC
do your children know there is an oc
do you know the Ow
what are your terms for reconcilliation if he came to you today and said he would commit 100000000% what would you ask for...
ark
Though all of that is true, I do want to save our relationship, and I would love to be wrong about what I think has to happen. In the mean time, yes I'm "plan Aing", I guess, and things are working out. There is still an ow, though he clams theres not, I know better. But there is progress..
I don't really know what to say.. I want to spend my life with him..
Ark, just saw your post, let me take a minute to respond
Ok, ark here you go
The oc is 1 1/2
our children are 12,11,6,5,4
Ok, my h sees the oc almost everyday at ow's house. She has been controlling the visitation, which also allowed for her to have a control over my h, and has allowed the affair to continue. This past year the kids hardly saw there sister, unless h took them over to her house to see oc.(yes they know ow, while we were separated, they had visitation for 3 months) They are starting to see her more, it's over here, and I do leave so that they can finally have time with their sister.
H is financially responsible for all of the kids, though not court ordered. To complicate things more, h and her own a business together and finagle funds between them to accommodate everyone’s needs. He also does not have legal visitation, which is a huge problem and has strung this whole thing along.
I do know the ow actually, we have had several encounters over the years. Unfortunately though we did not get stuck with a "normal" person gone astray, she is very manipulative, controlling, and lies all the time. She has lied to me and about me, manipulated me to the point of comforting her both on the phone, and in person. And she still has the gal to think I’m a horrible person/mother.. And basically views herself as the primary relationship, making me the ow, lol.. It's really screwed up. I've been so respectful to her given the situation, and well she can't bare to be the same way, even though there are children involved. Which puts MORE of a burden on me to look out for all of them, within this situation. I am SOOO pissed actually that both h and ow, aren't doing more to get ALL of the kids together. I don't care if I had to leave the house EVERY DAY for a couple of hours if I had to just to get them all together! The oc is getting to old not to have a real bond with her siblings and it bothers me a great deal. Even though I do not have a good opinion of ow, I will say that she is turning out to be a great mom.
Ok, as far as what I want for the kids and oc, I want my children regardless of what happens with their father and I to have a GREAT relationship with there half sister. I want them to totally be bonded to her, and totally feel like she is there flesh and blood. I do NOT want oc to feel "different" in this situation, not at all. And I was and am willing to FULLY except oc into my life, if given the opportunity.
Oh gosh, if my h came to me with 100% commitment. (I can't imagine this ever happening)... I would ask him for this..
I would ask him for some time still apart because I have to have him be TOTALY SURE this time.
I would ask that he dissolves the business and goes out on his own, like he did before their was an ow, the business has been an aid to the affair in every way.
I would ask that he goes to court and fights for partial custody, not just visitation. And that she be aware that I am going to be apart of oc's life because I am a part of his life.
I would want him to go to counseling, because I do not believe he is strong enough to follow threw with anything like what I described above, and I believe he is to moment to moment in his life, and not big picture/future oriented.
As far as that, I'm not what else I would need. The rest I'm sure would work it self out. But you see this would never happen like this, because my h can't be "told" what to do, he would rebel, or feel trapped.
But these are boundaries that I know I have within myself that I couldn't honestly accept less, because I already have and thought things would just "progress" naturally. Though the ow is able to get away with the demands etc, and still have him running to her, begging for their relationship. I really don’t get it, that would NEVER work for me. I sometimes feel like maybe he really did find “the love of his life” and I was just a vehicle to which to grow up with..
Whew..
I may delete this part of my post later because, the ow used to read on the other board I used to go to and I really don't want her to be able to identify me over here. she does know of this sight, and posted on here a long time ago, it was a big mess actually, back when I posted under a different name and was new to all of this mess..
seek legal counsel asap...even if you have to get the ball rolling through free financial aide which may take weeks till available start somewhere now....
wow....the concern is what this does to your own self worth and psyche....
it seems that you need to establish financial security for your children.....
first via your husband...
court mandated
then through your own ability to work...but the kicker is that amount of money it would cost for you to work OUTSIDE the home...
you said..
Ok, as far as what I want for the kids and oc, I want my children regardless of what happens with their father and I to have a GREAT relationship with there half sister. I want them to totally be bonded to her, and totally feel like she is there flesh and blood.
that's an unrealistic expectation...
AND
it's out of your control...
you need to change that you want your children to be raised to treat their half sibling with respect and love always even when that contact is threatened and hindered by the OP...
that's the best you can hope for...
WHY WOULD YOU AND WHY SHOULD YOU LEAVE YOUR OWN HOME WHEN THE OC COMES OVER...ESPECIALLY A 1-1/2 YEAR OLD??
WHAT IS THAT ABOUT...
you need a well detailed time line so that you can survive temporarily in this environment...
aRK
jaded heart,
I just read some of your thread, and boom these words of your hit me..
"he described her as a female version of himself", umm mine too.. But it seems to be mainly the bad traits they share. It's weird how there is even similarities with that.
yup ! pretty much the bad traits or what you could call undesirable...
Ark,
Thanks,umm I'll do some thinking..
As far as leaving my home, well this isn't my home, my h got a new house, I was supposed to be living with my grandmother, until I could get on my feet, but h and I were enjoying our time around each other, I guess because it was from free choice or something. And I ended up just staying here.
I am going to be staying here until I get on my own two feet, that has already been discussed. I do not believe in alimony etc, so that is not something I'm willing to consider, or even talk about because I get so much ****** about it from everyone in my life as it is. I want as much FULL time with my kids as possible, because the moment I move, we are doing half time.
We agree on all terms of the divorce, if it actually gets that far..
So anyway, I leave HIS home for the ow and oc to come over because the ow will not let my H have the oc by himself. Like I said she's very controlling and he allows it.
What I would like to see for my children and oc, is COMPLETLY out of my control, of course it is. But I can be sad about it and frustrated. Shoot most of this situation has been out of my control and I have many emotions about it. My h wants all of his children to be very close, and I completely accept that it is up to ow and h on what they want to do. I am not one to get into the mix with all of that, I accept their right to co parent. But some things would have to change if we truly were reconciling.
I wont change anything I'm doing with my children, I do not discourage them bonding with oc and I would never, regardless of what ow, decides to do or not... Eventually my h will make sure things are consistent with them, though that might not be for awhile, I know it will happen.
Luckily, my 4 year old is the only one at home right now, and I do finally have time to even think. So it wont be so hard to work outside the home, actually I'm looking to work inside the home because I'm starting a home based business.. Well cross your fingers anyway..
So that's it hugh... See my situation is so extreme, it sends everyone running, and asking, why would you want to try. A lot of the reasons things are so complicated steam from the fact that we were so young when we got together. I know that is why there is a constant rebellion from me, but also a need for me from h. I still could use some help, any other insight?
Wanted to add, that I am suprisinly out of my depreshion though since the last d day.. And I have quite smoking, started exercising, and can actually keep on top of things in my life again. All though my soul is strained, shoot and my brain, my self worth is strong and intact. Though I will never understand, why he isn't so happy I'm his partner? I keep on thinking, he has to be in the fog because we are a great team, and I know we have a great bond and love for one another. But it still goes on, and I get all confused..
if you are married then it is NOT your husbands house..,it is everyones house...
alimony is not some scape goating money sponge....especially with five children...may turn out that you CAN"T afford ot work...
smarter for you to make moves based on financial support from husband with out you having a job at first...then make that move....
this is so messed up...
what does this teach the children....
the over all picture...
about men in children lives...who can toy with them yet never have any real accountability...
are you saying he is planning on kicking you and the children out of some home and moving the OW in...
are you saying the PLAN is YOU move out and leave the children there!
ARK
Justmenow,
I have just my four year old at home now. It's nice, isn't it, with the others off to school? We just got back from a nice long bike ride and baked a cake together that just went into the oven.
It seems to me that you are accepting the fact that no one can control your husband's behavior except him, and that's a step in the right direction.
This is from a book that is more extensively summarized below, called The Solo Spouse: "Start thinking along the lines that your partner may not change. The focus then shifts from your partner to yourself. Then you reach the point of realization where you begin to find solutions to your problems...Having accepted that the problem is not going to go away, you must ask yourself what you are going to do about it and whether you are willing to settle for this situation."
One thing I have come to realize is that it takes two to make a great marriage but only one to not tolerate a bad one. You are not able to create a great marriage. You are only able to not tolerate a bad one.
Cherished
Here's the summary I made of the book The Solo Spouse:
Chapter 1 The Pain of Change
Put pain to constructive use to resolve your relationship problems.
The only person you can directly change is yourself.
By changing yourself, you can indirectly change your partner.
The key to change is maintaining effort.
Chapter 2 Self-Deception: Our Inner Enemy
Accept responsibility.
We deceive ourselves by overlooking, rationalizing, justifying.
False hope is the belief that the cause of and solution to our predicament rests outside us.
We become open to change after a period of hopelessness.
Emotional reactivity is progressive.
Realization is when we begin to focus not on our partners but on ourselves.
Before realization, we have a complacent, unrealistically hopeful attitude.
With realization, we liberate ourselves from self-deception. This involves grieving, and these are the feelings involved:
1) Denial: this can’t really be happening.
2) Anger: hurt; anger directed at partner; why was I so stupid?
3) Despair: unhappiness as we feel the full weight of the loss of our dream; self-doubt, loneliness, and fatigue.
4) Acceptance: stronger sense of personal responsibility; no longer see ourselves as innocent victims.
The last glimmer of false hope has been extinguished.
By seeing through our own self-deceptions and facing any personal shortcomings, we upset the status quo in our relationship.
Chapter 3 Emotional Reactivity: An Endless Cycle in Troubled Marriages
Act: something we do of our own volition
React: behave in opposition to our natural behavior or in response to pressure from someone else
Pattern for emotional reactivity:
1) Emotional triggers can lead to a reaction based solely on immediate emotional impulses and without thought of future consequences.
2) The partner needs to be drawn in; baiting can then occur and the provoker is satisfied by the response.
3) Escalation occurs when each partner focuses on the other. The goal is not to resolve an issue. It is to hurt, defy, spite, attack, defend, patronize, or provoke.
4) Recovery may not happen.
Nonengagement starves emotional reactivity.
High emotional reactivity will shut down communication and low reactivity will open it up.
Stages in the process of change:
1) What needs changing is identified, and an alternative behavior is planned.
2) When the situation comes up, the behavior is the same.
3) The situation is recognized, but the behavior is the same.
4) The situation is recognized, and the alternative behavior is followed.
Keep your plan and goal to yourself.
When your partner starts a reactive exchange, identify the baiting behavior. People usually have only about 6 – 10 baiting behaviors.
Chapter 4 Being Defensive: The Illusion of Self-Protection
Being defensive is one of the ways we cover up certain of our recurrent behaviors rather than trying to change them, and denial is one of our most common mechanisms. Our defensiveness keeps us from seeing ourselves realistically, in spite of he feedback we receive about our need to change. Denial followed by attack moves the focus off ourselves and onto our partners, so that we can see their every shortcoming, and none of our own.
Once we are defensive, we see all information as threatening and attacking. We cannot distinguish between a valid complaint and a hostile retaliation. We do not evaluate the truthfulness of the message but rather dismiss the criticism so that we are protected from immediate emotional discomfort. Interpretations and assumptions are made that support what we want to hear rather than what was actually said. If some information was taken in, it is explained away, simply denied, or the subject is changed. Then we counterattack and escalate.
Your real power for improvement lies in unraveling your own defensive mechanisms. Try to accept that there will be pain when you start coming to terms with the truth of what is being said to you, and remember that you will benefit in the long run. If a criticism was accurate, the fastest way to get over your pain is to start working on changing the criticized behavior. Observe, listen, and reflect, rather than automatically dismissing, blaming, or attacking the messenger.
Chapter 5 Togetherness: Balancing “I” and “We”
The ideal balance is for the partners to develop an ability to act together as well as apart, and to feel part of a “we” without feeling they are giving up their individuality and uniqueness. When agreements are forced, it often means no longer expressing true feelings because doing so would leave the person open to attack or ridicule. This in turn leads to resentment. True “I” statements are made as an action and are open to new information and input from others. Reactive “I” statements are made to defy, hurt, spite, placate, manipulate, or intimidate the other person or to defend oneself.
When people do not respect each other’s opinions, the thing they have the right opinion and try to force that opinion on others. Real communication ends as both attack each other’s opinions and defend their own. The key is to learn to express our opinions while not defending ourselves against attack. By not defending yourself against attack, you alone can create an atmosphere where differences will at least be tolerated and at best will enrich both lives. There is an old saying – “Never answer an angry word with an angry word – it is the second word that makes the quarrel.”
No victory can come from intimidating someone into agreeing with you. No victory comes from keeping silent and giving in to placate your partner. If you lie either to yourself or your partner about who you really are, both you and your relationship will suffer.
The key to success lies in confronting yourself and in not confronting your partner. Long-lasting improvement in any relationship comes more from changing negative behavior than from expressing negative feelings.
You will need to learn how to express you opinion as a subjective view rather than as an absolute truth. When you find yourself under attack, concentrate on not defending your opinion; simply state your view and say nothing more. Do not explain why you feel this way, or answer your partner’s charges, or try to reason with or persuade him. Nothing more needs to be said or done. Your opinion is simply a statement of what you think, feel or believe. Always keep in mind that your goal is to express and respect your mutual differentness. Learn to state your position without being drawn into an argument.
The stages of success are:
1) a mutual cessation of attack or retaliation when differences emerge
2) each of you are more open to the differences between you
3) a mutual respect for your differences will emerge.
Chapter 6 Dealing with “Who is to Blame?”
Blame is most frequently communicated in the form of “you” statements, such as “Why did you” and often implies that the partner had ulterior motives or intentionally did something injurious. Laying blame will always cause a reaction.
Assume that each of us is responsible for our own actions. Trying to force your partner to see his own faults will only worsen the relationship. When we focus on ourselves and work on our own problems, our life with our partner improves. It is counterproductive to vent. Release your feelings on another way. Learn to not react to your partner’s retaliations, no matter how provocative and malicious they seem to be.
Decide ahead of time what point you want to convey. Plan to convey that point in a nonreactive way by making brief “I” statements. Stay away from statements about what your partner is doing to you. Instead, concentrate on what you have allowed to be done to you. Focus on specific behaviors rather than a condemnation of your partner in general. Take responsibility for change where it can have some positive outcome.
Learn to identify the area in which your partner blames you and observe exactly what is said and how it is said. Before you react, try to understand what part is truly your own responsibility. Then try to distinguish between what your partner is blaming you for and what you are responsible for. Never try to convince your partner to accept your view; never ridicule or attack your partner in reaction to a provocation. If your partner reacts, say nothing. Not reacting to blame is what will ultimately reach your partner. It’s OK to say “I don’t want to talk anymore right now. I’m too upset.”
Chapter 7 Using Your Anger Constructively
What to do with anger?
1) Express it, and the result is reactive confrontations or alienation from partner
2) Do not vent it, and you are drained emotionally and physically
What are forms of anger?
1) Shouting or screaming
2) Not saying anything
3) Bodily reactions
4) Delayed behavior
5) Tone of voice
Different stages of anger:
1) Unresolved anger can turn into resentment and then bitterness
2) There is a need for a reactive encounter regardless of future consequences
3) The reactive infection stage
4) Escalation
A common source of anger is our expectations. There are three things you can do:
1) Smolder in your anger
2) Lower your unmet expectations
3) Leave the relationship
If you lower your expectations, you can honestly reevaluate both your relationship and yourself. You need to deal with reality. When you lower your expectations, you also must see your own faults as well and move toward a solution. By focusing on your own shortcomings, you can learn that your partner has a great deal of justification for his complaints. The less we expect of our partners (and the more we expect of ourselves), the more we receive. When an attitude of “expect nothing, get nothing” dominates a relationship, people stop doing something for their partner unless it is angrily demanded.
Nothing constructive comes from out-of-control anger. Start thinking along the lines that your partner may not change. The focus then shifts from your partner to yourself. Then you reach the point of realization where you begin to find solutions to your problems. Your pain is due to the death of your self-deception. Work at getting behind the anger to the hurt, disappointment, and finally the loss you feel. When you accept this loss, you will also eliminate your anger. The bigger the fantasy and the longer it was held, the more time it is likely to take to give it up.
Having accepted that the problem is not going to go away, you must ask yourself what you are going to do about it and whether you are willing to settle for this situation.
It is easier to vent at the partner than to look at your own shortcomings. We may try dealing with reality, but reality will deal with us.
Chapter 8 Pursuit and Distance Between Partners
The pursuer seeks togetherness at the expense of personal autonomy and individuality. She feels emotionally secure only when her life revolves around others. The distancer feels crowded. She emotionally pursues him by wanting to know what he feels, wanting resolution of their problem, and wanting it at once. Concurrently, he distances himself emotionally from her, seeking space to think about it, hoping the problem will go away by itself or that she will wait until he comes up with a solution in his own time and way. For every step she takes toward him, he moves one away from her.
The pursuer gives up and looks for other ways to fill the emptiness. The distancer’s self-centeredness and isolation lead to boredom and emptiness. He also seeks ways to relieve his discomfort. Pursuit and distancer problems often start when a legal or emotional commitment is made to the marriage. The pursuer needs to acknowledge the gap between her expectations and reality.
Both pursuit and distance are reactive behaviors which become progressively worse over time, unless one partner’s efforts succeed in putting a stop to them. Change will be initiated by the person who is most uncomfortable. He will change only when he fears losing the pursuer. Distancers tend to change in direct proportion to how much their pursuers modify their pursuit.
These are the pursuer’s options:
1) continue the pursuit in the hope of emotionally engaging the partner; this is a fantasy which ultimately leads to frustration, exhaustion, and emotional bankruptcy
2) separate
3) stop pursuing
Pursuers are addicted to togetherness and the need to stay in a relationship – even a bad one. They settle for very little and express their disappointment, frustration, and anger in hostile, critical ways. They become responsible for other people’s problems. This caretaking can become manipulative and controlling, and can backfire because people resist efforts to change them. They find it easy to blame others.
Pursuer can only reach the distancer by distancing herself from him – emotionally and physically. The only way to catch a distancer is to be more distance than he is.
Chapter 9 Stopping Pursuit: Guidance for Pursuers
Never pursue a distancer. Do as little as possible for him and with him, with the goal of doing absolutely nothing. Learn how to fill your life in new ways, seeking other people who will meet your emotional needs. You will be forced to develop some emotional autonomy. Change your expectations and give up the pursuit. Your improvement can occur only after your illusion of finding happiness and completeness through someone else collapses. Pursuers tend to follow, but distancers tend to procrastinate, so it is up to the pursuer to make changes.
Ark,
I don't disagree with you, this is messed up. Everything! The way he is thinking that he is doing me a "favor" for "letting" me stay here after 14 years of marriage is messed up. Him asking me to leave for ow and oc to come over is messed up. Him doing any of this is messed up. But you know what, what ever. I am done with arguing with him, I’m so tired ARK. He does not want to think about ME.. He just wants to enjoy the good we share, he doesn't want to think about my feelings etc, and that's just the way it is. Which is why I said my "plan b" will be leading to divorce because I'm just not fighting the stupidity and fuzzy logic anymore. He wants to act like this fine, eventually he will see that he was a total [censored], and he will feel bad. I can say that with confidence because I grew up with him, and I do know HIM, this fogged up a hole is not him, though it is right now.
The kids. Actually the kids are absolutely fine. Completely well adjusted, and we handled all of this very well with them. I mean it was way better then I thought it would be. The oc got explained because we were actually going to divorce after I found out about the pregnancy, the kids new we were getting a divorce, then they knew dad had a girlfriend (which they did know as dad's employee/friend before) and then that she was going to have a baby... Then we ended up getting back together, and well we've talked with them about the fact that it looks like we are going to divorce. This has been over a 2-year time frame and things to them look BLACK AND WHIGHT, even though they are not. They do not know the oc is a child of an affair, and do not think of the ow like that. And have felt NO animosity between anyone, though our oldest suspects there is because ow and I do not see each other face to face and the oldest are frustrated I don't get to see oc, and that they don't see her enough.
Umm my children have learned a lot about love and strength through all of this, and I have too, actually partially thanks to them, and their ability to love and bend..
Men in children’s lives? My h is going to have them HALF time, which means just as much as me. He is a very active father. And we plan on still doing activates together as a group.
Look he will have his "accountability" from someone that can give it to him, I'm not that person. I am not going to "teach him a lesson" or something like that. I want to hopefully have a real friendship after divorce if it comes to that, but at least be able to co parent. I will not hold hostility within me, it just festers, and to me that teaches the children a whole lot of stuff I'd rather not!
No he's not planning on kicking me and the kids out, though me being here is "optional".
The plan is that I move out get my own place and we do half time with the kids, that's the plan.
I have NO idea what he is doing with ow, none. I don't have a clue if once I'm out, he moves her in. I doubt if that happens, that it would happen fast because of the kids. But I have no idea. I do know that if that does happen then I will be done for sure. Because I can't deal with that again.
I really don't want to focus on what will happen if/when we get a divorce right now, I have plenty of time to worry about all of that.
Right now I'm concentrating more on the fact that things are getting better between us. And I would like some insight with that. Now that I've given up, things are getting God so much better.. (but of course it is still not a "marriage") That's really what I want to focus on..
Believe me I do know how screwed up this all is, I'm living it, I don't think he realizes though, which is the scary part. I however do know.. And thank God the children, have a totally normal life, they literally are protected from this drama.
Charished,
THANK YOU!!!
That is exactly where I am right now, exactly.. I haven't yet read through your whole post, but I plan on it right now!
And yes it is nice to have this one on one time with my youngest. Most of her life I've been going threw this with my h, so well this light load is really nice right now, and I'm enjoying every minute of it...
thanks again, I was starting to feel like a freek show..
I don't disagree with you, this is messed up. Everything! The way he is thinking that he is doing me a "favor" for "letting" me stay here after 14 years of marriage is messed up.
you need to find out your legal rights to assetts and the home etc...I totally support not powerstruggling his nonsense...but I don't agree with you going belly up on it....(not saying that is what you are doing...but warning you that it is dangerous to think so)
The oc got explained because we were actually going to divorce after I found out about the pregnancy, the kids new we were getting a divorce, then they knew dad had a girlfriend (which they did know as dad's employee/friend before) and then that she was going to have a baby..
so the children believe in a marriage that you can say it's over and say you are going to get a divorce and then one or the other adult can go out and have a girlfriend or boyfriend and that is OK>....
They do not know the oc is a child of an affair, and do not think of the ow like that.
is there a plan for them to ever know the truth as they age....
here's where my concerns are about you...
you say you two are good partners...yet he doesn't ACT like a good partner...it's probably closer that you BEHAVE well and things are fine and good...meaning less chaos and stress and less anger and mean-ness against you...
in other words...you put up and shut up...and all is good...
good fathers establish legal rights to children as necessary to insure that the children do not become pawns...yet he has not done that....and that threatens the whole foundation of this family unit
Right now I'm concentrating more on the fact that things are getting better between us.
I am concerned that this is only because you have quit saying anything....
your comment about not pursueing alamony because of what other people say concerns me....
your continual insistance that he is a good dad...when the house if full of elephants and lies concerns me...
it's one thing to protect children from unecessary realities and harm.....and to be full aware that is what you are doing with plans to rectify as ages and time become appropriate...
it is another thing to create illusions and lies that have potential to destroy their foundation...
it is another thing to make false realities to them..mommy and daddy were 'going to divorce' so daddy took a break and had a girlfriend...and now daddy has a baby with the girlfriend.....
a woman who wields enough power in the eyes of children to make mommy disappear....
they know you two are getting a divorce right now even as we speak...when do they think this is going to happen??
I am just seeking info on this....
not judging....
ARK
Ark,
I'm not sure what you’re trying to get at..
"so the children believe in a marriage that you can say it's over and say you are going to get a divorce and then one or the other adult can go out and have a girlfriend or boyfriend and that is OK>...."
Look I don't think it's OK, never said I did, BUT I HAD to work with the situation. It's not like it could be ignored. The fact is she became pregnant, and we had to explain it, in the best way we felt. I don't believe in dating while separated, but that's just ME, if he was acting as mature as I am regarding marriage etc, then I wouldn't be here because there wouldn't be an affair to begin with.. Look what do you want from me, LOTS of people date while separated and shoot that's what we see all the time. I didn't want this, and I don't think it's great that my kids HAD to be told that, but it was the best we could do in the situation, and quit frankly I'm glad we were not living under one roof and that they were together through the pregnancy etc. With the way we are raising our kids, I wouldn't have wanted to TELL them that their dad had an affair, and well how do you not tell them that while all under one roof... I'm glad my children do not have a poor image of their dad, their sister and their life. And this situation isn't ideal but it is what it is, and I'm thankful for the way we handled it, despite the unfortunatnes that we couldn't give our children what we both wanted, which was a marriage more complete then what it is..
I don't ever understand the point of comments like this, that have to do with something so far in the past that just can't be changed, and are obviously sensitive.
"you say you two are good partners...yet he doesn't ACT like a good partner..."
Of course you are right with this.. There are however many levels with people and within a relationship. We are good partners, but he is not fully in our partnership is he.. He might just have a toe dipped in it, but it is what it is.
"it's probably closer that you BEHAVE well and things are fine and good...meaning less chaos and stress and less anger and mean-ness against you..."
Hmm, I think at this point, it's closer to the fact that he's had two women for the last 4 years, and he's tired. He is tired of feeling pulled in both directions, he doesn't want to deal with anyone’s s*it, he doesn't want to hear about anyone’s feelings, he's ready to pop.. It's easier to take things out on me, or have unrealistic expectations of me, because he expects me to love him, and well you take those for granted that are close to you and have been in your life for ever, unfortunately. Shoot to a degree I did the same, pre affair.. I know HE created this situation, and it's not like I'm like oh poor baby. But I am empathetic to his plight. Because I do love him, and I don't like it that he's all jumbled up inside.
"in other words...you put up and shut up...and all is good..."
Recently, as post this last d-day, yeah sounds about right. But that's not how things have been. And I realize this is affair related, and he "can't handle" everything going on, because, well, it's REAL..
"good fathers establish legal rights to children as necessary to insure that the children do not become pawns..."
Come on, he was used to dealing with someone reasonable like me, in regards to the children, he thought (in his ignorance and unwillingness to listen) that it would be best if they worked it out for themselves, without all the legal bull.. Anyway, we both thought that while she was a baby baby and still nursing, it probably wasn't a good idea to have visitations in the home, because we both felt she needed to totally be bonded with HER mother, and not be confused. He got plenty of time with her, I didn't get in the way of that.
He just is recently realizing that regardless of any agreement she ultimately has the power, and well he needs to get things legalized, which is apparently something he is perusing. He is a great father.
"yet he has not done that....and that threatens the whole foundation of this family unit"
But he is a weak person right now emotionally, some people threaten suicide, he threatened to leave town.. Some people crack under extreme circumstance. And honestly I'm sure he thought, ahh, that would be great to escape. But actually doing it, is something totally different, I don't really think it's a possibility, but it did show me how emotionally unstable he is right now, even though most of the time he doesn't look it.
"it's one thing to protect children from unnecessary realities and harm.....and to be full aware that is what you are doing with plans to rectify as ages and time become appropriate...
it is another thing to create illusions and lies that have potential to destroy their foundation...
it is another thing to make false realities to them..mommy and daddy were 'going to divorce' so daddy took a break and had a girlfriend...and now daddy has a baby with the girlfriend.....
a woman who wields enough power in the eyes of children to make mommy disappear...."
No one could ever make MOMMY disappear for them, thank GOD I never viewed things like that and I have great communication with my children, I handled the situation wonderfully. The questions, everything. This is all ancient history.
What do you want from me? I do not subscribe to the theory of destroying a child’s innocence and respect for their father. And at that point I was not sure if the ow was going to be their step mother for Gods sakes, I was certainly not going to scold either of them in the children’s eyes. What good would that do.. And don't give me that old bs, bs, saying, "oh he did that for himself", or " well he doesn't deserve their respect", or any of that other bull. I don't believe a child should have to face certain realities about their parents. The marriage is separate from the relationship between parent and child.
I'm afraid when your in the situation it's quit difference, you can sit on a soap box when it comes to some things, but I'll tell you, when it comes to my kids, I do my BEST and I will not be told that it wasn't enough!!!
"they know you two are getting a divorce right now even as we speak...when do they think this is going to happen??"
We had a general talk with them about it, and they know we are not sure of anything quite yet, but they are prepared that we are going to have two houses again etc, like with our last separation. They know I'm working on a home business.
The [email]h@ll[/email] your not judging, in what way are you trying to be supportive of me, or give me any kind of real advice. You are being judgmental of me, how I've handled things, and my family, shoot even the dynamics of my situation which are what they are. I'm very frustrated right now.
You know I’ve had to defend myself enough unnecessarily for years, ok, and I really have no interest in doing that with a stranger. I’m here for support, and encouragement.
I have no idea what advice to give you..
you aren't IN plan A...
You aren't planning on plan B.....
you are planning divorce...
I honestly don't know what type of help you are seeking...
I'm not saying it was the right or wrong things to tell them about dad...
I'm trying to find out
1. what you did tell them
2. what the plan is tell them in the future
trying to figure out what page everyone is on...
I don't undestand what you mean when you say your husband bought a house and you live there...
is that what he says
is that what you say
what does the law say..
equal split in marital assetts...??
some of these decisions in the past will have GREAT HUMUNGOUS effects on the future and the more you preprare for fall out either way ...the better it will be for all...
I'm not telling you it was wrong....
some of it is alarming for as these children age they will question a lot of these things....
you said..
.
Some people crack under extreme circumstance. And honestly I'm sure he thought, ahh, that would be great to escape. But actually doing it, is something totally different, I don't really think it's a possibility, but it did show me how emotionally unstable he is right now, even though most of the time he doesn't look it.
my advice...call his bluff....
cause he plays and uses people...and cries victim to two women sheesh....
you said...
No one could ever make MOMMY disappear for them, thank GOD I never viewed things like that and I have great communication with my children, I handled the situation wonderfully. The questions, everything. This is all ancient history.
that is in direct reference that YOU said when baby comes over YOU LEAVE because that's the only way the OP allows the baby in your house...
that's what I was referring to your disappearing...
if that's wrong then I got the story wrong...
if you do disappear when baby comes ...
then what the subliminal message sent to the children...??
that's the question....
that's all
not saying it's right or wrong...but there's a good chance at some point in the future the children will ask why ...
what's the answer..
better to be prepared than to lie or be caught off guard..
and who's to stop other woman from blaming YOU in front of your children....
I don't know how to support you..
I don't know what theories of marriage building you are willing to suscribe to..
people can choose to live in all kinds of marriages and relationships...and as I have said before...as long every ones eyes are wide open and they are clear about what they are doing....then more power to them....
I am concerned that the children will become more and more inquisitive as they age...and that three adults are going to be caught in some pretty heavy cross fire...
AND I am trying to see what you plan is for that...cause the better prepared YOU are the better off you will be
ARK
Ok, whew, I feel so much better now that I know where you are coming from... ahh..
Ok, I don't have too much time to post tonight, this is probably going to be my last post till tomorrow, but I am going to continue it.
As far as mommy disappearing with ow coming over. Oh yeah, they all realize it all of them, well except my four year old. And they all think it's weird, and they all have certain feelings of resentment towards the ow, now. And everyone knows it. Their dad knows it, and I believe he has told her. The older kids realize there is some tension between her and I, and they also realize that she is preventing a lot from happening, that it is not their father and my choice to not have their sister over etc. Oh yeah this situation isn't going to get easier not at all, not until their dad gets his head out of his [email]AS@.[/email] And actually gets things all started out with his kids, with visitation etc, regardless of who he is "with" this needs to happen, and until it does our kids are going to be on edge.
I have had very awkward conversations recently with my older two because I had to, revolving around the subject of their sister and ow.. And I have to tiptoe here, because well there is a fine line I must walk on that subject. I'm the real "talker" here, there father doesn't really explain anything..
I appreciate you looking out for the future for me, I really do, I guess I was just not receptive to the way you were saying things,etc.. You don't understand how hard it's been for me on boards, because I can be empathetic to all sides, and love the oc. It's very frustrating the reactions I get, and well I've had to basically be careful even on line because of the ow, I don't want her in my head.. It's hard to sum up the last 3 1/2 + years. And explain what is going on right now without seeming like a total co dependent, weak, person. Which I'm really not.
Ok, here’s the crazy logic that I'm going on ok... I'm thinking, I really don't have a say in this divorce, if he really wants it, I'm not going to fight it. But I want the marriage/relationship. I don't think it's great now, there are many flaws, but the things I am really happy about and the improvements, and the way we are relating to each other is very promising, and making me think that there is still a chance.
So yeah right now I guess I am plan Aing. I want the marriage. I might have to get a divorce to get it, but I still want it. I know my h and I will still be close after a divorce. Because of our family ties, and well we will be family no matter what (together young, so it's different, very young).. Which will mean that perhaps we will be able to work things out down the road, if not right now. Since my h does not have patience at the moment, and just wants everything in life to magically happen, and everyone and everything to be straitened out without him putting forth effort etc. There is a REALY good chance this divorce is going to happen. So before it does I want him to see how good it can be, as if we moved passed all the affair business. I want him to see what he will be walking away from , if he chooses to.
And when I do move out, I want him to really miss me because of it, and want it back.. Perhaps we can bypass the divorce, and work things out in a separation. Though I'm only one piece to this puzzle.
I'm not sure what it will take for him to wake up. But I know I have not done what I'm doing right now, ever. And things are peaceful. And for the moment if I have to put up and shut up to finally allow my mind and heart to relax, and his too, then so be it. I'm tired ARK, and I have know idea what is going to happen.
So yeah I need support in a plan A. And I'll tell you I'm having a ruff time of it the past couple of days, it's just hard..
Oh I agree about calling his bluff. Oh I didn't sugar coat anything when he told me that crap! I laid into him, told him that, that was discussing. AND he better not justify in his mind that it's "best" for everyone, like he's some martyr etc, he's coping out , and is just like his father. I just worry because this shows instability for him to even threaten this... It does scare me, I don't want him to do something stupid, I rather just be out of this mess then have all that happen..
Oh and he didn't buy a house for him. Our lease was up, and he got a house for him. It's a rental. I already got the van transferred into my name only and that's the only thing we own out right. The house is NOT mine, I'm not on the lease, and honestly I got all set up at my grandmothers, but well it worked out that I ended up only staying two nights there all summer.. It sucks, but he must really feel he needs to define either his independence as a person, or freedom of choice. It's possible that he still feels resentful that he married so young, and he needs this. But he is not handling things that great.
Honestly I never viewed my h as acting his age before, but well he is in many ways, and it's scary to me. We have not so little children anymore. And I really don't know what the future is going to look like, or what choices he is going to make. All I can hope for is that he is thinking clearly when he makes them, and that the children are thought of during the decision making process. And that if need be I can be the balancer for the kids...
Ahhh gees.. Now I'm kinda depressed. It's like I'm peddling up hill.
Hi! I'm a new poster, but have been on MB since March, reading other people's stories, yet not ready nor willing to share mine, but from what I see other MB'ers and the whole philosophy of MB is, that you can't let your husband eat cake, that you can't FEED IT TO HIM. Which is what is happening. You have lost all hope of saving the marriage, your husband doesn't want to work it out with you, but you have so much fun together, you aren't willing to fully go dark--NC--you are doing yourself the biggest disfavor, by trying to be the peacemaker that you are hanging yourself out to dry, with your husband's help. You are trying to protect him. You are cushoning his fall. You need to let him fall flat on his [censored], because the harder and faster he falls, the faster he can realize his screwed up state and pull himself out of his crappy mire and make atonement for his sins.
This doesn't mean you are forcing himself into his pig hole, but that you are letting him fall naturally into it, into his own built ******. He needs to be dropped. I think you need to set clear cut boundaries, and don't let him keep using you like a dirty rag. This man is sick. He needs help. But not from you.
You are a beautiful strong woman--you can make it on your own. Prove you are a fierce Amazon woman. Become independent of his shenanagans. Your husband sounds like mine... my soon-to-be-ex. He's not taking responsibility, but still reaching out to be your "friend" when he's really stabbing you in the heart, doing disfavor to his CHILDREN and WIFE.
If you have been through this already, it sounds like he needs to see the consequences to his actions. Think about NC. Talk to your MC and see what he/she says. Best Wishes.
I get what you are saying, and you are right, I do, do these things. "You are trying to protect him. You are cushoning his fall. "
I always have , because I love him. And I just don't want to fight anymore about this. It's been to long.
Any sugestions.
And plan A just started naturaly, only a little over a month ago for me. So shouldn't I stay in this mode longer? I NEVER did this before, because I couldn't.
It is time to stop cushioning him. As quickly as you can, get yourself set up financially, physically, and emotionally free from him.
My husband told me I could never survive without him. We married when I was one week past my 18th birthday... he was my childhood sweetheart as well. I clinged to him as long as I could, trying to protect him, because I was so in love with him, even when he was stabbing me in the heart--without meaning to, I'll gratefully say, but it doesn't lessen the damage done, nor the dysfunction in the relationship.
So I started planning. I got myself as independent from him as possible, and then when we seperated (weird story, btw) I became a strong person, and started fulfilling my dreams and goals, and proving that I don't need him to survive. In a way, I think he greatly respects me for that, although we are a hopeless cause at this point in time so it won't work out between us.
Make your husband respect you. Put your foot down. How can he respect you when he can treat you like dirt? He can do whatever he wants with you, to an extent. If he couldn't, he wouldn't have a mistress and daughter on the side, with one foot firmly planted in her camp, AND yours. He made a mistake. But he continues to live in that mistake.
Get independent. As fast as you can. When you are, then its time to say, ENUFF!!!!! NO MORE! Be in control of YOUR situation. Don't let him be in control. Be ready and willing to lose him forever, because IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. You have done your ultimate best, in fact, more than the call of duty, to save HIM. You cannot save him. But you can SAVE YOURSELF.
You don't have to fight with him. I never did with my husband. We parted on good terms, even stayed really close for a very long time, until I realized that I was his emotional stability, his cushion, and yet he still didn't want me. He was using me--not meaning to hang me out to dry, but it doesn't matter if he meant to or not. That is what happened. So I told him that I loved him, and I wanted to get back together, but I just couldn't continue in our relationship when he wasn't willing to be the man he knew he needed to be and the man for ME as well. I told him that he knows how to get ahold of me, and when he's ready to fix things, look me up, but until then, No CONTACT.
What a burden off my back! My hair has quit falling out, I have put on some weight (Thankgoodness too!!!), my cheeks are rosy, I have a beautiful smile that actually is not forced anymore. I went traveling around Europe this summer. I met new and exciting people. I'm finishing up my Bachelor's degree in history, and plan on starting my masters right away. I'm taking care of me, not him, not when he isn't willing to have a marriage.
So get as free from him as possible. Take legal steps to ensure he pays child support. I know you said you don't believe in alimony, but yet you have been a stay-at-home mom. So when you seperate, and you don't have a job, what then???? You still love him... by asking for Alimony, it isn't a revengeful act, but rather, you have taken care of HIM and HIS CHILDREN, and you deserve to have some of the money YOU BOTH EARNED together until you can get on your own two feet. He's got a job. He can afford to give you some of YOUR money.
You love him. You always will. So give him some tough love. Don't grovel in the dust so badly that he can do whatever the [email]H@ll[/email] he wants to, because he can't. You are his equal. Time to start showing him that. Blessings.
I can say that again, there is nothing that I can argue with about your post. I totally get where you are coming from and you are right about a great many things.
I think my h though does have a great deal of respect for me though, just not for himself and because of that he is well overlooking the "human" factor in all of this, with cause and effect. And well obviously can act very callas about things if he feels cornered. In fact he might have so much respect for me that he feels poorly about himself around me maybe, perhaps he doesn't feel he deserves what I give him. I really don't know. She is someone he does not have respect for that’s for sure, but he seems to think on some level that he "needs" her, right.
Anyway. Yeah when I do get separated, after I get on my feet, things will change between him and I. I know that will be a defining moment in many ways, and our relationship will have to change, or what is the point of breaking up the family? I have no problem with being strong; I've just tipped the scale in the past with making sure he didn't fall, with allowing myself to fall in the process. Oh he's felt many stings and things have been too dramatic honestly. I really enjoyed the last year because things were calm. Yes we had relationship talks, though now I see those were premature and put to much strain on our reconciliation, given our situation. Still in my mind him, and the situation occupied so much of my brainpower, emotions, and spirit that I felt like I had nothing left for me.
My h and I actually got married when I was 15 and he was 16, we were very young. I know part of all of this, is well I don't think he ever made a conscious choice that I was the one. Like most couples do. I think he felt most of the time that we fell into all of this, yet he loved what we had. So he basically resented me and our life with it's restraints when it was convenient to him. Though I'm just speculating, he is not a great communicator with me, because he can't be honest. And I'm afraid he can't open up fully to anyone because he just doesn't know how to give him self to someone like that. I had no idea that he was like this. I thought what you saw was what it was with us, and I had no idea that he was well going through any conflicts within him all of these years. I guess I spend so much time "scolding" him when he screwed up that he didn't want to be forthright and wanted to rebel. But honestly what was I suppose to do, I wasn't one to ever put up and shut up, and he made many poor immature and selfish choices over the years. I just don't know how all of this happened. I think we were so absorbed with our 'own' lives and hardships and roles that we ended up disconnecting and both becoming takers by the beginning of this affair.
Also I see an EXTREAM change in us both since the start of this mess. A great growth of maturity in both my h and I, even though he is still caught up in the affair, he has matured in many many ways, and so have I. Because we started out so young, we have extreme uneven development. We both are aware of this, and are working on our own gaps.
I somehow think though that in the end (when ever that is) we will be able to work things out. I still believe (though I don't really have a reason to I guess) that we have something very special, and that we love each other in a way that can withstand the test of time. I do believe that goes both ways, even in this situation.
Our "marriage" is a joke at this point; obviously, I don't even define it as a marriage really anymore. I try not to define us right now, I mean our whole adult life and actually all of our teens (we got together at 13/14) we have been an us. And perhaps we need to really become independent of each other, if we are to have a healthy relationship, either together, or with others in the future. I can say that both he and myself are not whole people, not at all. WE have relied on each other so much that we literally need each other. That has created a great bond between us, a special closeness, and strong sense of family but it has hindered us as individuals.
I think a lot of this in the beginning, was my h's way of defining himself as his own person, and well perhaps living out a youth he never got. I don't know if it's all that simple. I do remember however that he told me in the beginning of this all that he wasn't sure he would have married me as an adult. But of course at that point I had more to "catch up on" in life then him, given the fact that I had no social life and was a stay at home mom, well didn't allow me to have many "normal" life experiences. I can see how I wasn't an "interesting" partner at that point in time. But I knew back then that things would change as the children got older and I was willing to be patient, and I was right they have changed a great deal.
All of the problems, well most anyway that existed in our relationship pre affair, are irrelevant now, and virtually non-existent.
Still there seems to be a great need of independence, for us both actually, but more so for him. He never has lived on his own, he would like that experience. He would like to care for the children alone (on his time with them), and the house etc. He has never done this. I have lived alone however, for almost 2 years on and off when we were separated before. I know I can live alone, he knows I can live without him. Our h's don't have the same view in that sense, my H knows I can survive without him. Though I don't believe he has ever pictured me "moving on" with someone else, or actually turning him down sexually etc, and I'm sure he's confident he can melt me with his words/actions and have me all happy and satisfied, because well I'm easy to please. But things will be different once we are separated.
I don't plan on doing a "dark" plan b. I don't want his choice to be based on fear of loss. I want his choice to be based on what he would GAIN with a monogamous committed, honest relationship with me. I want him to see VALUE in "us". I want him to see what I have seen all alone. I have no intention of not talking to him, or even being his friend, and I see no benefit in that at all, for either one of us, or our children. I'm certainly not going to do that for a "quick" fix within this situation. We had many quick fixes over the coarse of all this, and all failed miserably. Shoot I have noticed anything DRAMATIC either in her "favor" or mine, has fallen completely to bits. Well at least it turned out not to be what it was thought to be, and he has not had the will power to stick to anything.
If we are to remain together or be together in the future, it has to be because he wants that as bad as I do. That he wants to make changes in his life, which includes visitations with his daughter, fading ow out of his life and out of his heart, financially getting un-intertwined with her, and seeing me for me, and not something or someone that makes him feel good, or makes things "better".
I won't settle for less. Though I relies these things are not something I can demand, and poof they happen. And even if they did I would not want them that way. Relationships just like people are sensitive, complex, and evolve. And work best with sensitivity and understanding. I do not just look at my needs, like I did for 10 years of our relationship anymore, or how I looked at them obviously after my first d day, and for almost a year after. I can see him as a person with all of his flaws, and I love him. And love to me is not about what you get back, but by loving them for who they are, even there limitations. Appreciating what they do, and realizing that your expectations of them might be too much, shoot sometimes you can’t even have them. It’s not something to be mad about necessarily, it’s sad, and it hurts, but everyone is on there own path here in this world. There own path to God, etc, and are going to have to go through there own trials and tribulations. I think more importantly then our marriage vows, are what they really mean. If you were to love someone that much in marriage, why would you just stop loving them. You can continue to love them unconditionally and recognize that you may not be able to be with them, either because you can’t live with the choices they make in there lives that effect you, or because you have no desire to be with them in that intimate of a way anymore. I unconditionally love my h, but that does not mean I can stay with him under these circumstances, or that I FEEL I deserve any of this. I can separate the too thinks luckily, and because of that I know I am capable of loving him in a very true way, meaning it’s not based on what he does for me, or my personal hurts because of his choices. He is my family regardless, and I believe he feels the same for me. Though he is confused as to if he wants me as a life partner. I believe that he will see in the future that he in fact does, though I don’t know when, and I don’t know if that will happen before a divorce, and for that matter before I move on with someone else. Though I hope it doesn’t get that far, it may, because so much is out of my control, a marriage is two people, and I’m the only one in it right now.
Unfortunately because of the dynamics I in our case, I firmly believe the affair is going to have to die on it's own. And the only way for it to truly do that is for me to be uninvolved on that deep of an emotional level with my h, and also physically uninvolved. So she will have to meet all of his needs and he will truly have to take a look at her as a partner, and the relationship as something real. Along with all of the other real elements to the situation, and all of the other REAL choices that he is going to have to make even if we end.
I'll support him emotionally, and you know what, if he does lean on me so be it. Then we can at least be friends for life. It's not all or nothing for me. I don't want to loose a great friendship, and I don't believe he does either. If all he ends up needing me for is a shoulder to lean on then I know I can truly move on with my life and stop "hoping" things will work out. Because I love him so much that a friendship will not be enough for me, and by the very fact that it could be for him, would well show me a great deal, and allow me to move on, including with another relationship.
It's going to go one way or another, once we are separated, I'm scared, and I'm going to be sad, but I'm also very curious, as to what exactly is going to happen. I'm prepared that he is going to throw some "tantrums" because of frustration, because well I know he is not going to exactly be happy with the actually separation either.
I am prepared for all of this. I have thought about it a lot.
Right now though I'm focused on "us" and I am not making waves right now. I'm enjoying the results of us NOT talking about the problems, I'm enjoying ignoring the problems right now, I'm enjoying my ability to almost be removed from my deep emotional self, so that I can get a break.
And I'm thinking that well things could get a lot better and even if by his stupidity we end up divorcing that we may have a real shot of it in the future.
Right now too, I am working a great deal on myself. It's over do, and I'm disconnected more then ever before, and I'm feeling more san then ever before. So I'm thinking I might have been way to attached to him, like perhaps that of a young child with a parent or something. Emotionally we are talking here, there was not enough of a distinction for me to where I felt truly independent of him. Now I do, and I'm able to go with the flow much much better. And also not take life in general so seriously, and I'm not as intense as I have been all of these years.
So there is lots of progress, but of course I still agree that separation is necessary, and possibly divorce. To save "us" as individuals, and perhaps save our relationship and any chance of a future, in the future...
I know this is unconventional but that seems to be the way my life is. And because of that, well things have to be a bit out of the box. Also I am not a conformist in many of my views, and because of that I'm not going to touch the alimony subject or we will never get off of it. You don't understand, everyone gets on me about it, in my real life and virtual, and it's just a waste to talk about because I am not going to change how I feel about it.
I am how ever interested to see what you or anyone else thinks about all of this. And basically I would like to know if I'm the only one on the planet that thinks this kind of makes sense for us. I don't know, it also is helping me just to write about all of this. I haven't been able to be free on a board for quite some time because of the ow reading my posts on another sight...
Thank you
Wow. I really do relate to what you are saying. Except its so idealistic, and I eventually caved because I myself couldn't do it--most couldn't, and if in the long run you actually can stay the course, wow. You show absolute true love for your husband. Just don't lower yourself and don't let him eat cake, k??? Respect yourself first. Think of him second--if you are divorcing, that is, and he is quite clear he no longer wants YOU. Mine was clear. he couldn't have been any clearer. I stayed on longer and tried longer than he wanted me to. He just didn't have enough guts to tell me to get out with his words, but I finally got the message through his actions. It wasn't until I told him I wasn't coming back (he found a job for the summer where I couldn't follow him... ON PURPOSE... and so he technically left first, but I was the one who initially voiced the actual words) until he figured things out that he told me, "WHAT A RELIEF!" I was devastated. Now I'm not so much anymore. I can't believe I let a man control my emotions so much that I wished I were dead instead of alive (not that he set out to do that, but I choose to feel that way).
As far as alimony is concerned... People in my family have pushed me to get it as well but I refuse to do it. In part, I can take care of myself, in fact, better than he can take care of himself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and we don't have children together, and it would only be revenge. He's on his way to getting his doctorate at a big University, and is quite poor. It would only be evil of me to take that from him when he can hardly survive right now.
I wish I could just be friends for my husband as well, helping and supporting him... deep inside, this is what I want, but it was hurting me way too much. I couldn't do it. I literally fell apart... I lost so much weight, my hair was falling out in huge handfuls, and I was having to see a physical therapist twice a week because my pelvic was rotated, I could hardly walk, and she said it was probably stress because there was just no other way to explain it. So I talk with my MIL and get the scoop on his life every once in a while, and let her and the rest of his family take care of him where I no longer can.
I lasted like that for 2.5 years. I had to quit. For my own sanity. I'm no expert, my husband was not having an affair with another physical woman, I've never read tons of marital books, never really been to counseling, so I truly don't know what to say except my own impression and experiences.
Just don't hate yourself or kill yourself if you find out one day you can't "just be friends" with him. Its not anyone's fault but his own. If you can do it and be happy about it and respect yourself and keep your self esteem up, then why not???? I don't see why not. Every relationship is so very unique from another person's situation. Best of luck.
p.s. I thought I had submitted this yesterday, but apparently I didn't!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> So this is what I wrote in response to your questions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
gellenjen,
I have to tell you that I am so pleased with your post to me. I think you "get" me, actually in a way most do not. I've been on internet boards for about 3 years now, and I think you are one of the first that get it.
I respect everything you have said to me in your post, and Im sorry that things have worked out for you the way they have right now. But you know, time changes things.
I will tell you that well when I was at the 2 1/2 year bench mark(a little sooner then that but close enough), I was at the point you are explaining. And I was moving on very much so. I felt I had too. My h was living with the ow, they had a new baby, our children were having visitation over there with THEM, and I was well crumbling to pieces. I was pulling away, I had lost a ton of weight, I started drinking, I lost a lot of hair during those years as well to the point I had to keep cutting it shorter and shorter because it was too thin to keep it long, I started to make friends with others and "go out". I was in the process of accepting things for what they were etc. And then everything changed, rather fast. My h got terribly scared he was going to loose me, and in a very dramatic way I was "saved" by him. Everything changed and well it felt really great.
I can completely relate to where you were absolutely. I am about 3 1/2 years past my first d day, and I am at the point where 'I' am , as a person, recovering from all of this. This has been truly an independent recovery for me in so many ways, and I am truly very strong because of it. I felt since the time you speak of in my life, that I was going to live my life like a leaf blown by the will of God, and well except things as they get thrown at me, work through them, and try to learn through them. I couldn't fight them anymore, and things would work out the way they were meant to. I still believe that, and it's been a hard journey with truly livening it. I think the true test of my own thought process was when their daughter was born. And my own words that "everything happens for a reason" challenged me.
Honestly I wonder sometimes if I'm tested because I was so idealistic in my worldview. My parents I guess raised me that way which isn't bad at all. But there wasn't the real world vantage point to draw upon. I'm finding that I'm becoming more balanced as a person through out this experience, and I'm realizing what it honestly means to love another person. And it has little to do with what THEY do for you.
I still believe things happen for a reason, despite how difficult things are for ME right now. It honestly doesn't matter that much, I'm not the only one in this situation, and I'm doing ok. I can handle things right now. This last year + have helped me a great deal with well finding a calm within me. It's a struggle, I'm a LEO, but I'm trying to look outside myself a lot more then I ever have in my life. And by doing that , I don't know, I feel like what ever happens I will be ok. Even though I am going though difficult times.
It's always so hard for me to get good advice because of my situation, and I appreciate just hearing that you understand.
I probably have a better view of my self worth now then pre affair, my world is completely different then pre affair. The naivety is gone, and you know I'm grateful of it, I was a person that well was really undeveloped yet opinionated, and I suppose selfish in my own right, though I didn't see it.
I wish all of this pain didn't have to happen in my life, but I feel more prepared for the world because of it, and I have been able to help so many people online because of it. All of the different angles to my situation, well I can relate to so many. The problem is when I have a problem, others have a hard time relating to me. I didn't get a situation that was well clean cut.
I am scared, I have no idea what will happen, I don't want to loose my h, and I love him very much. But it may happen.
My real concern right now is his mental state, not mine, I'm stable. I'm over all the low lows, and have been for more then a year. My depression is now gone, and I have been able to come to terms with many things, even though I just had another d day only a couple of months ago.
I'm just worried for him, how split he appears to be. He acts completely warm, and loving etc to me, and it's great, but I read his emails to her and I'm shocked on what he's able to write. I just have never had him express him self to me as he does with her. He has called her his soul, etc. And it's really hard to understand. So I have accepted that I cant.
It's still hard though, it hurts a lot, and it of course leaves you feeling eerie like you don't know the man you know you know..
Anyway, I need to go right now, the kids are all home and we need to think of some fun activates to do today, I'll check in latter if I can today.
thank you again, I feel so much better now that I’m able to write again, and get my thoughts/feelings out. Its such a release to me.. I’m glad that someone can see that I am not a “doormat” or “weak”, or “co-dependent” and blind. I just need support in my life right now.
I just don't see how you do it! I would have totally left eons ago, but that is just me... but I think you are learning valuable lessons throughout this whole process, growing up, becoming stronger, making your own values, your own way of life, etc. etc. etc.
My family wondered why I kept on so long with my husband... it was because I HAD to try EVERY door, every way, to see if I could save us. Once I saw there was no way, then I could move on with my life. Or at least start moving on. Its been tough moving "on" but I haven't had a real conversation with him since May of this year, when I told him I can't be "just friends" but that when he's ready and willing to work things out, then I want to be his wife again. It has felt good to stake out my own independence. He was right on a lot of things about me--embarassing to admit--so I've changed and grown on those things. I truly am a better person, more ready for marriage now than I ever was (but I don't want to be married to anyone unless its HIM... otherwise, GIVE ME THE SINGLE LIFE! It would take too much time to train another man . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).
So it appears that in whatever situation you are placing yourself in, you are choosing to be happy. Good job! You are learning the toughest lessons in life right now, and if you can come on top of it a better person, you have accomplished something most people in this world will never be able to achieve: self fulfillment, happiness, peace, and a strong fortitude that will carry you through any future hardships. Best of luck.
p.s. what state do you live in?
Gellnjen,
I live in sunny Florida.
You have me on the verge of tears right now, you have no idea.
"but I think you are learning valuable lessons throughout this whole process, growing up, becoming stronger, making your own values, your own way of life, etc. etc. etc. "
This is VERY true, very.. Everything I have ever believed in has been tested throughout this experience, and I do mean everything. My narrowness in mind is virtually disappeared. I can accept more of what life throws at me. And hmm the hardest of all, which I still battle with by the way, is wanting every situation to be about me. My h's affair and his struggles within his own separate life and path are not about me... They do affect me though. But even still I feel NOW because we are virtually all independent people, with the freedom of choice that we all hold, I can't carve his life out for him. I can't be mad at him for choosing poorly, and well some of the things I can't even know if they are truly poor decisions.
It may seem weird but I'm able to look outside myself more now, which is a true blessing this early in my life. I am very thankful for this, as I feel this will benefit me in many ways for the rest of my life. And I honestly Respect people more and there right to choose to even screw up in life. And I look to find the reasons why they are choosing to make their life more complicated. What THEY are missing, how they got caught up in things, and how perhaps they don't see a way out. And the fact that THEY may never see, or understand what I can see or understand that they are going through, they have to go through it themselves and figure it out for themselves. And that what I see and understand may be utterly wrong.. I am SOOOO much less judgmental and critical of a person, and I'm defiantly off of my high horse that I was on, with "morality" etc, and I realize the whole point of this world is love and understanding, and acceptance, defiantly not feeling better then someone or even EXPECTING THEM not to let you down. Everyone in your life will let you down at one point, and you've got to be able to cope with that reality. I tell you I remember moments of physical pain because some of my revelations that I was getting throughout this situation were so far from where I was before that it hurt to "grow" as a person. And although I still do feel that way, it's not as painful, and I'm able to handle things much better, and take things in stride.. I am challenged almost daily, and I am ready for it to stop though I don't think I'll be that lucky for a while.
At least there are a lot of good things in my life to balance out the difficult stuff, that I HAVE to handle alone.
I think I shared too much of myself with my h over the years, I was too open and he was too closed, and I allowed myself to be completely vulnerable and he did not. So perhaps things are also working out better because there is some balance in the force, lol..
"I just don't see how you do it! I would have totally left eons ago, but that is just me"
That's what everyone has said, and in all honesty what I thought I would have done in a situation like this. I would have never believed that I COULD handle all of this, nor believed still that I would WANT too. The thing is usually with the same breath of what you just said to me, also comes a sense of , God I value myself more then that what's wrong with you attitude, that I get over and over. I've learned not to share as much of myself with other people in my life. I was too naive
When he first left me I think I was more scared then anything. I had so much resentment built up inside of me from the years prior and only looking at my end of the "raw deal" and what he could have done verses what he did ect., that well I was more upset that I was going to be a divorcée so young and more concerned about my children, not having the life that I wanted them too etc..
It was all superficial bull sh*t. I was just boiling mad, mad, mad, mad.. And I didn't understand because I thought I was a great wife! I was doing everything for the family that I could, sacrificed this and that etc, and he SHOULD be happy with me... Wow! And then I found out about her though it was downplayed majorly, and I lost it.. Underneath it all was the underlying, oh my god you treat her like I always wanted to be treated by you. I always wanted you to want to do this, or wanted you to want to do that, and you are giving her this so freely... I was confused. I thought if I lived a life by the letter of the law that things would work out for me, or that I was doing everything right. I was really misguided. I finally started to look beyond myself, and looked at his perspective of me as a partner, not me as the mother, or a person, but as a partner. And suddenly I felt very sick, because like you said, he was right about a great many things about me that I just wouldn't hear, and believed to have no validity. And I started to feel SORRY for him! Empathy for him for the first time in my life, the first time I didn't feel justified, or like I had to be right. And I didn't care about all of the things in the past anymore. And I realized I didn't only love him, as in passively stating I did, or passively feeling it, but he was actually everything I wanted in a partner, and I realized how much I honestly loved him and how much I had taken him for granted as well..
So it's not like this story just went from A to b.. It took years to develop into what it is. I had no idea what each week was going to bring in the first two years, let alone a month, or a year. So yeah people can say, I could have never put up with this or that, but I honestly would have too probably every month before something else challenged me.
I've gotten pushed by others to say things or do things that I didn't think were right for me in this situation, and that being greatly because I didn't know what to do and was really vulnerable. And that goes with the support board that I was on for 3 years, and also family members and friends. All mainly were driving by well PRIDE.. And I decided after a while that I lived a life of nothing but pride and righteousness before all of this, and I wasn't happy, so F PRIDE! I thought and thought about all of the people that I knew whom ended relationships with someone that they loved because of a shortcoming of the other, and because of PRIDE didn't allow themselves to be vulnerable enough to try again. Or they were worried about what others would think of them. Or that, that kind of love is a weakness. I think our society loves a good romance movie, but when it comes down to it we have warped view of love, and how pride has nothing to do with love.
Ironically I recently came across a passage from St Paul that talks about love, and I truly understand now. Perhaps before I would scoff a bit at it because of the "what do I get out of it" mentality that maybe us Americans have innately, but I think that attitude is missing the point..( I might add that I am not Christian though that hardly matters to me, the truth is the truth)
"Love is patient, love is kind,
Love knows not jealousy,
Love is never boastful, nor proud, nor unseemly.
Love is not selfish nor easily provoked.
Love knows nothing of wrong and does not rejoice at the misfortune of others. It only delights in the Truth.
There is nothing love cannot bear, no limit to its faith, its hope, or its endurance."
I do believe though obviously we are not meant to live a life of degradation because of love. And we have to have self-respect and boundaries. But those have to do with OUR limitations, and we have to realize that those we care about have there own limitations, and that everyone’s limitations can change over time as we each grow as individuals.
And because of that and stretching myself to the max during all of this time, I have been able to survive this experience, and in many ways be thankful for it. Even if that means loosing my marriage in the end..
"it was because I HAD to try EVERY door, every way, to see if I could save us. Once I saw there was no way, then I could move on with my life. Or at least start moving on."
I absolutely agree with you. And I gave up many times. And honestly I'm giving up now, and ironically we are doing better then ever. I have my speculations as to why, but I honestly don't really know why... And I can tell you still love your h, and instead of saying there is no way, you might want to adopt the saying, right now is not the time, either in his life or your own, for what ever reason, the timing is not right.
I know I will be moving my life forward once/if we get separated / divorced, but I will keep my mind open as I'm moving forward, to possibly a future with him in the sense that I would like to have. But only time will tell. And I have seen time do so many things, I trust in it now.. (which is really just putting my faith in God, and realizing I can't control everything, only what I say, what I do, and how I react to things, every thing else is out of my hands)
"I haven't had a real conversation with him since May of this year, when I told him I can't be "just friends" but that when he's ready and willing to work things out, then I want to be his wife again"
Oh I feel so sad for you that things got to the point where you felt you had to cut him completely out of your life. I'm so sorry! The unfortunately difficult thing to except in all of this is there is a sort of natural progression to these things. Your foundation of your relationship has been completely ripped apart. And the core of every foundation is the very important friendship, natural care about the other, and interest in them as a person, companionship, and someone you can just be breezy with. You both probably crave that more then anything. I don't know, from my own experience, I learned that I really wanted him in my life, because I enjoyed his company, I missed him, and to think of him just gone out of it was to much for me. Which is why I have always had a problem with a dark plan B.. What happens after that, if they don't come back, then you loose the good you did have with that person. Sure maybe it wasn't enough for what ever reason to be a marriage, but just the pure fact that so many years were spent caring for one another were there, I would think would be a motivator to still at least be in contact.
I think at first when we were separated before, our interactions were clumsy to say the least, and we didn't know how to relate to each other anymore. But over time I was able to relax more, and be silly with him, talk about things that were not IMPORTANT, like anything besides relationship talks, and we gradually became friends again. The hurt that I was feeling was the only thing keeping us from being friends, and the only thing that actually slowed up reconciliation. And the one thing in my control, I just didn't know how to make the hurt go away or at least lesson enough to where I didn't have to share it with him all the time. I made the same sort of demands on my h before as well, or really conditions. I can't be your friend, I can only be your wife. But I realized I would be hurting myself even more in the process because I ultimately didn't want to loose his friendship. I just needed to have some time to learn how to be his friend again. And now I know for sure that we will always be able to be true friends, and I believe our "core" is getting even stronger recently and that will be very hard for him to turn away from in the future. Well I believe that to be true, and we will just have to see.
Sometimes you have to color out of the lines. If you feel like you are better off not talking to him, then stick to it. But you seem to want a future with him still. I will tell you there will be no way that will happen without at least communication. You said you've changed a lot, or are in the process of changing, and that he was right about some things about you that you didn't want to admit. How is he to know the knew you, perhaps the you he knew was inside but you never were with him, perhaps he has changed as well in ways that you are unaware because neither of you will pick up the phone... Shoot, I mean so what if you have to start from the beginning, that's a good thing isn't it. The old life together though it will always be in your mind, is gone, and if there is going to be any chance at all, there has to be a new beginning, a friendship, with no expectations of each other in it, is a start... And see where it goes.. It might be better then hoping things will turn out different in the future, yet each expecting the other to become vulnerable, and no one does.
A light friendship might do you good? A call here, and there, no talk of relationship stuff, no expectations, just the connection with a person that you have known and cared for since the age of 18 (right?).. I don't know, I'm not telling you to do this, I'm just giving my spin on things, I just know the typical advice out there and what I was fed by others. And everyone’s definition of what it means to be "strong" verses " weak" and I have a totally different view of what they mean, now.
"I truly am a better person, more ready for marriage now than I ever was (but I don't want to be married to anyone unless its HIM... otherwise, GIVE ME THE SINGLE LIFE! It would take too much time to train another man. )."
I'm so there with you, if we actually divorce, my God I don't see myself getting married again, let alone wanting to start seriously dating. I'm also more ready then before for marriage, but I realize he probably fills less equipped and it would seem doesn't want the restraints of marriage at this point in his life.. I don't really know.
"So it appears that in whatever situation you are placing yourself in, you are choosing to be happy. Good job! You are learning the toughest lessons in life right now, and if you can come on top of it a better person, you have accomplished something most people in this world will never be able to achieve: self fulfillment, happiness, peace, and a strong fortitude that will carry you through any future hardships. Best of luck."
I surely hope so, thank you..
"It has felt good to stake out my own independence"
I know it does, and I'm sure our ws's have felt the same, although they were independent in ways that hurt us. I can see the appeal. Especially when married young. It's no excuse, but I do "get it". I also enjoyed my self, while I was separated, even just the fact of not having to think about what another person needs, and just doing things my way. That was a very hard thing to give up when we got back together, and it took me a good few months to adjust, and that's with me wanting reconciliation. I can see how things aren't so black and white for them either and how they can be conflicted even though what they are going through hurts us emotionally.
I am still having a battle inside of me, I'm very conflicted inside. It's hard to implement in my life what I believe is ok, or right, etc. It's hard not to be completely selfish, or make sarcastic comments, and be cynical, etc. And that's sad to me that it's HARD for me not to be these things, I guess this is how I lived my life, and breaking out of that mold, well I’m going to be conflicted..
It's just so hard. I'm going through a lot of different stuff right now, and now I'm too tired to write about it.
But my son went over to the ow's house today to mow her lawn, and I don't know, just anytime the ow and him are together with any of our kids, it just makes me feel so upset. Especially because in the kids eyes she is just there sisters mom, and their friend. And that's the way things are presented to them. But she can't be descent enough to respect my h's wishes to have me involved with their daughter. Shoot even to be around their daughter. It just brings up so much anger I have inside. The irony that I the wife am not putting up selfish restraints as far as my children go, and she is. And worse of all my h lets her, he doesn't fight it. It just hurts. Their daughter and the lack of vigilance on the part of my h to get her in my life, even, if nothing more, because I have been a big part of his life for 14 years, even just because we are friends, if nothing else. I am so completely devastated, I have only seen and held his daughter twice this past 6 months, and both times he snuck her over to see me. I realize he has bigger fish to fry so to speak. But the feelings do consume me. And actually the main reason why I know I can't stay in this marriage for a long time, not the way it is, because of his daughter, and the lack of desire to truly share her in my life, the fact that one partner keeps that big of a piece from another, shows no partnership in the deep way we all want.. I will barely be able to handle it solely as a friend, but it will be more tolerable..
Not to mention any moments that the ow have with my children or my h, or the moments my h and her have with there own daughter. It's just all very hard for me. I'm handling it, but it cuts through me. Just as much if not more so, then reading she is his "soul", or that she has all of his heart. Or his "pleas" to her to stay with him basically. None of which I pretend to understand, all I know is what I'm given from him, and it's better then ever before, and I feel he loves me truly more then ever before. So well I take things in stride and day by day. What ever is real will present it's self in time. And things will change quite rapidly when we separate, so I'm trying to enjoy the time we have right now, and make sure I do not allow myself to get into that depressed state that I was in for years over all of this. I HAVE learned that I can't spend my life WORRIENG about him. I have to carve out a life of my own. And I'm starting to...
Thank you for your post as usual, it really got me going, I guess I have so much to say because I've been keeping so much in me.. Thanks for being patient and reading through all of this, I really appreciate it...
Hugs to you!
Jmn
Glad to hear you are doing ok today! So did you get stormy weather in Florida from Katrina??? Currently, I am in Arkansas because my folks just got a new place so I am helping to fix things up... today was spent in washing cars, the porch, the side of the house, etc. with a pressure wassher, and getting a nice sun burn (the only way to get a tan!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). But I hail from Washington State--and also California, where I was married.
So do you have a tentative plan as to when you will be leaving your h??? What's the scoop on that?
What is your plan for the future without him (or with him, but as a friend only)?
I relate to a lot of things you are saying. I think its because we both married young and grew up with our spouses, so somehow the connection is stronger with our mates since we married so young.
My foolish pride isn't keeping me in the way of going back... its his pride. I've gotten down on my knees begging please so many times, and if I thought it would make a difference, I might even continue to do so.
But it doesn't. He wants to be independent, out on his own, experience life without being married, which I totally agree with, because I'm enjoying it every bit as much as he is. Except I'm willing to be married still. I'm moving on. Emotionally as well. It feels good. I rarely think about him these days, whereas before he was in every thought, every breath, every step I took. When I do think of him, I more or less think, "Thank GOD I'm not with him right now!!!!!!!!!!!!" Which sounds terrible, and if my MIL reads this (she posts on this site as well) its because of the way he's leading his life. He told me he's the "most at peace and happy he's ever been before" but his good friend who was with him this whole summer called me up and said, "he's the most miserable #&#(*#&@^ (his words, not mine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> because all he does is sit in front of the computer all day long, surfing the internet, or playing games... even his advisor had to light a fire underneath him because he just wasn't getting things done...) Happy? Peace? Sure. Whatever. I'm glad I'm not THAT happy or peaceful then <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.
He's six years older than me... We have been married 4.5 years. We seperated at basically the 3 year mark... divorce papers should be going through in October, so we'll never reach the year five mark. Pathetic.
But I have one thing to say to you: It feels good to make him wonder what I'm up to. Leaving him in the dark as to my life. His summer was horrible--he lost a lot of money, is being sued because his dog viciously attacked the apartment manager where he lives at, his 4-wheeler was stolen that he's been relying on to sell for $ to live on, health problems, etc. etc. etc. while I was trouncing around Europe. When he lets his foolish pride break, then I think we might be on to something, and the marriage might be able to work. Until then, he's going to have to suffer his consequences, good or bad.
It also helped to move out of state. Also that we don't have children, so we don't have to be in contact. I thought I could never get over him, but now I'm seeing that I actually can, and AM.
Well. I really don't have any words of advice to you because your situation is so odd <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and so is mine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but I'm proud of you for doing what you think is right and for still trying to help him and not smacking him across the behind until he pulls his head out of his [censored]. But I am listening. And praying for you. And wishing you all the best of luck and happiness that you can find in this lovely little world we live in.
and if my MIL reads this (she posts on this site as well) its because of the way he's leading his life
I hope you don't think
I approve of the way he's leading his life! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Carry on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
t&l
P.S. Did you know that hearing that he's unhappy is one of the best pieces of news I've had in a long time? For anybody in situations like we find here on MB, for the other party to be upset, unhappy, stressed, bummed out, or generally disturbed is a
good thing. Change is pretty much impossible as long as they're content with the way things are. I say, "Bring on the rain!!!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Gellenjen,
"Well. I really don't have any words of advice to you because your situation is so odd and so is mine but I'm proud of you for doing what you think is right and for still trying to help him and not smacking him across the behind until he pulls his head out of his [censored]. But I am listening. And praying for you. And wishing you all the best of luck and happiness that you can find in this lovely little world we live in."
What you said here mad me smile, and laugh a bit, because ODD doesn't even do it justice does it. Shoot all of the details of the last 3 + years make it that much odder, lol.. I really do just aprciate the support and someone that is willing to listen.. Thanks...:)
Umm as far as Katrina goes, thank God it did not come anywhere near us. We live by the Tampa Bay area, so Gulf side but in the middle of Florida. Though we are a beach town, all we’ve gotten this hurricane season is a lot of red tide.. Which pretty much means, you get ready for the beach, all that kids excited etc, and you get there and can't go in the water! Dead fish all over and it reeks to high he##! So you have to leave... Ugg, this season has been the worst, hopefully it will calm down but by that time I'm sure it will be to cold to go in the water..:( I’m so upset about what is going on with those poor people, but I’m really glad it didn’t dome our way, can handle a little read time.
As far as a plan for separation.. Hmm, well I'm taking it day by day. I'm currently in the process of starting a home-based business, and I would like to stay here until I can support my own home. So that may be within a month, or several months. I'm not really in a hurry, the way I look at it this may be the LAST time I truly have with my h and my children all under the same roof, with me. I'm truly soaking up this time and trying to remain positive.
I don't know how anything will work out yet once we are separated. I really don't know. I guess I'll have to take that one day at a time as well. I do know that I will not allow myself to FOCUS, OR DWELL too much on the negatives once I leave because I can't. That's how I lived my life for too long now, and I just don't want to live like that anymore. I'm sure I'll need support through it.
"He wants to be independent, out on his own, experience life without being married, which I totally agree with, because I'm enjoying it every bit as much as he is"
I think this is where my h is at as well except so far it really is lip service, and he's getting closer to me, so I really don't know what he actually wants anymore. I to feel like I would benefit from time on my own, but you know, we have 5 kids, our oldest is 12.. It seems like TIME is a luxury that I just don't have, or "we" don't have. I can't just take a break from my life, do what ever I want and then come back to it. And neither can he, now he's taken "mini breaks", no doubt, but well I guess it's frustrating for me because I feel like if we had that time, then things would, just work out between us.
I think we both feel a little smothered, in different ways, and I just don't know what to do about that..
Which is why I even titled this thread I have no idea what to do, because I'm completely torn.
I've asked myself:
Is what I have right now bad?
And I can say no it's not, I love what h and I have together, and I'm interested in seeing where it goes...
I've asked myself, well if you stay in this situation to long, are you devaluing yourself, and minimizing what you believe marriage to be?
And I come up with, I don't know? Is it working on a relationship a bit at a time and just going with the flow or is it settling for less then you want because it just isn't going to get better?
I've asked myself, can you really live with the fact that his affair may still be going on and may still be going on for some time?
I don't know, can I? Maybe, maybe it's worth it? Maybe it's worth allowing the affair to die a natural death and not uprooting anyone. I mean things are getting better.. But I also care too much about him, and I believe marriage is way more then this.. But perhaps for us at this point or anyone after an affair, perhaps "marriage" is to big of a word. I mean it's totally shattered and it's being pieced together, so is it even considered a marriage, I mean honestly, my h and I are married, and we do "married things", but when it comes down to it a "marriage" is so much more. I just don't know.
I'm confusing myself, because for some reason my gut is telling me, wait it out, this time feels different, you know what's going on now, you are going to be changing your life anyway, and becoming more independent, just wait it out! So I'm doing that for now...
"My foolish pride isn't keeping me in the way of going back... its his pride."
I totally get that too! In the past my h's pride drove him big time, or so I thought, and then I discovered he had a glass ego, and was more sensitive then me. Which is why I ultimately always had to make the first "move", or extend the first hand. Not because of his pride, but because he was so fearful of getting hurt from me, or rejected, or just feel unloved by me, that he couldn't bring himself to do it. Actually this drove him many many times to be a total as$ to me as well. Maybe this is your guy’s dilemma as well? At the same time though my guy has ALWAYS had a real hard time saying sorry, I don't think it's pride , I'm not really sure what it is, I guess he thinks he's always right, lol...
"But I have one thing to say to you: It feels good to make him wonder what I'm up to."
I bet, considering, I totally can relate and understand.
"I think its because we both married young and grew up with our spouses, so somehow the connection is stronger with our mates since we married so young."
No doubt, It's really different, and I have a real hard time picturing me caring about someone as much as I do him. I love him in such a full way. I was 13 when we started seeing each other, our daughter is going to be 13 in 2 months! It's just surreal... It still boggles my mind that any of this is happening... Not that it happened per say, but that it IS happening, or at least the dynamics that are going on..
Ok now, last night I completely lost it on the phone with a friend of mine from my old sight, whose h also had an affair. Totally crying etc, just having a tuff time. H went over to ow's house (she lives with her mom) to use the lap top, it's not like that is something new or anything, but I just lost it. Hysterically crying, and it felt really good to get it out. All the pent up stress inside me from just living in this situation catches up to you I guess. And that just means generally speaking, I don't think I would be doing much better at all if we were separated right now, in fact I think I would feel worse.. So it's not about geography. More and more his daughter is surfacing to my mind again, and I'm really just frustrated and sad about not seeing her, and him not pushing for it. I know he doesn't "have" to, but Im upset that he doesn't want to, at least it appears that way. We can't talk about it, because we can't talk about anything right now. And I guess that fact alone can take a toll on a person. We can talk about anything else on this planet, but not us, not right now. I can't handle it, and neither can he, it's just been to much... Never the less, I think to myself, oh God what if she's like 3 or 4 before she gets to know me, or I get to spend time with her. What if we stay married and I'm never treated like a stepmother? What if it's ww3 with ow, over visitations with me, so my h forever stays in a limbo state with it, or just never makes it happen? I don't know I'm just having a hard time with the what if's, going on, I just thought things would be easier then what they were and that they were more stream line, that there was an actually plan that I was a part of.
I have ALWAYS found comfort in knowing what was going to happen, or the security that came with a marriage. You know your going to wake up that day and be with that person and you are scouting out a life together. It just feels so day-by-day now, well because it is, and I'm just having a difficult time with it. Especially with his daughter. The last thing I can do is put any pressure on him right now, because this is the first time he hasn't felt it, and I don't want to be in that position of having to talk to him about it, I just want him to want to change, well like a lot of things that are going on right now. But I know that for what ever reason, HE CAN'T right now in his life, and it's just hard to swallow. I know you can relate to that. The problem here, is that the ow is going to FOREVER be linked to my h, thus liked to me even if it's indirectly through my children, because of their sister, and at the moment they are still business partners, which means lots of contact. It's just hard to swallow that perhaps, they will always have that much contact and I may not be able to accept that, I highly doubt it honestly. If we were to well "officially" rebuild. Maybe he needs the " I don't want to label what we are" deal, with me right now, I don't know maybe I want that to, the pressure of being HIS wife, drove me to my brink.
Though there are some encouraging things (?) going on right now that I would like to share and get some feed back on.
This morning my h was sharing a story about him over at ow's house (don't be surprised, nothing new, and doesn’t really bother me, we are very comfortable with each other) and he mentioned that her mother was there etc. I asked him if her mother actually talks to him now (she hated h, rightfully so), and this was his reply..."Yes she's surprisingly civil with me now. I think it's because her daughter and I aren't together." Then he said. "I think that's why my mom is nicer to ow now too".. Then he goes on to say " We shouldn't have ever been together in the first place so this is how it should have been".. (I don't remember the exact words, but this is very close...)
Ok, ummm, I don't know but I'm thinking more and more from things that are happening, that maybe, just maybe they have called things off? Maybe the affair is over?
Also h and I got into a really stupid, nothing fight today..(we only fight about ow, or well really stupid things, never about anything else that is a big deal, and lately we haven't been fighting at all, because of my natural, plan A of sorts, I guess you can call it that?)
I wanted to go to his moms today with him, along with the kids, he wanted to go by himself, or just with our oldest son, and I don't know it was a stupid fight but we got pretty mad, because some dumb things were said out of it. I ended up feeling unappreciated (it went in a different direction) and really upset, I thought he was over reacting big time, and turned nothing into something, apparently he thought the reverse, so there you go. Well I took the kids to the park by the beach this afternoon, and when I got back there was a note on the table for me. Now h was home but he was planning on leaving and he say me outside and all he said to me was, "there’s a note on the table for you", nothing else. So I went in side and took a look. Here's what it said..
Honey,
I'm sorry for being rude and snippy. I don't regret WHAT I said to you, but I do regret HOW I said it. I'm sorry for yelling. I LOVE you.
I went out and gave him a hug and told him the exact same thing.
This seems like a big deal, because with ME, he doesn't out stretch that hand first, he sweeps it under the rug and hopes that he doesn't HAVE to say sorry, or that we can just be ok without any acknowledgment that there is a problem or was a problem. He has done this a lot more recently, like I said it's not like we fight a lot, actually this is our first fight in a month, but he seems to be making so much more of an effort, with everything, that I wonder if maybe we can work this out..
I don't know if I should be encouraged, or just hoping we can maintain a friendship, I don't know what to bank on, or what I should be focusing on.
But it does feel like, and seem like, well he's enjoying being with me as much as I am him, I just don't know what to make of it.
He tells me I'M to serious, and that I just need to take life as it comes a bit more, and it is true, I'm trying, but it's hard, I spent my whole life one way, and now going with the flow and not feeling safe, well it's difficult.
If I didn't just have a d day 4 months ago, and told that he thinks a divorce is the best bet, and us telling EVERYONE including our CHILDREN, well then the way things are between us, I would say we hit a MILESTONE with recovery, but since all of those things did happen, I don't know how to take ANYTHING!
thndrnlitng,
What you said is VERY true no doubt! I think it's great that you and your dil are close. MY mil is my family no matter what as far as I'm concerned as well and I really love seeing that kind of closeness with others as well...
gellnjen,
It seems like we do have a lot in common.
I've never been to any of the states you mentioned, I bet they're nice though.
That's really great that your helping out your family right now, I also bet it helps you take your mind off of things, right.:)
Got to run..
hugs,
jmn
I really could use some insight to as to how , or why my h is acting how he is with me...
Hello! I was so busy the past few days, today is the first time I've even gotten online! So sorry i wasn't here for you.
So my response to this one:
"Never the less, I think to myself, oh God what if she's like 3 or 4 before she gets to know me, or I get to spend time with her. What if we stay married and I'm never treated like a stepmother? What if it's ww3 with ow, over visitations with me, so my h forever stays in a limbo state with it, or just never makes it happen? I don't know I'm just having a hard time with the what if's, going on, I just thought things would be easier then what they were and that they were more stream line, that there was an actually plan that I was a part of."
I think that if you and your h repair your marriage like you are now hoping, then YOU need to then stand up and let him and his ow know your rights as the SPOUSE OF your H. And your h should bring her over if he wants to. It sounds like he has a fruit jello-o for a spinal cord <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. He needs to grow up and become A MAN. A MAN. Not a dysfunctional immature idiot (no offense to you at all). He's a sissy boy right now, not able to be in control of his own life let alone someone else's. That's why your independence is SO IMPORTANT. Don't bank your life on his. easy to say, hard to do. I banked my whole life on my husband--I don't know if I could have stopped either unless we had a long respite from each other like we are having now.
I also learned today that men hate it when women fall apart... it annoys them, and upsets them, but they know they can't tell us because that would be cruel, but thats the way it is. I found it enlightening, because I used to fall apart at the seams with my h all the time! He felt miserable when i was like that, not to mention I did too! If I had to do it over again with the capabilities I have now, I wouldn't have fallen apart. I would have become strong, looked him in the face, and told him to figure it out. And I would have gone and been productive with myself, become more independent from him, like having a seperate bank account, getting my own credit card, finding a job, driving myself to school. Basically, I would have lived with him, loved him, cared for him, but become independent, his equal, instead of viewing him as a great god looking down on me while I squirmed and writhed at his feet. He didn't set himself up as that god. I DID. I regret it. I demeaned myself. HE DIDN'T DO IT. I don't know why I did, but I did. I guess if I thought that if I became so submissive, so loving, so self-less, he would love me, or pay attention to me. It was a cry of desperation, of help. But it was a stupid way to do it!!! I would become independent. End of story. Hindsight is always better than foresight. I kick myself for a lot of things I did to hinder progress, or even if there was nothing to fix between us, I hindered the growth of myself as a decent human being. I'm still upset that I did that, and wondering if I've changed, and how I can continue to change.
My h and i had plenty of loving times between us. We had good times. Lots of laughs. We had FUN together. But as a friend told me (Rachel, if MIL is wondering <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) that it proves that I can't live on fun for a marriage. But it still didn't matter. He told me it was a relief when I was the first to bring up the subject of separation. He wasn't going to do it--he didn't have enough backbone to tell me with words, although he told me with his actions that he no longer wanted me. I didn't want to be separated, but it was clear as day he wanted it. So I gave it to him. I'm glad I did.
So you admitted you let your h "eat cake" and that you cushion his fall. How can you change that? Let me know! Are you going to put it into action? Let me know!
You have good times with him, but you are also making excuses for him as well. Is being nice to him (your version of groveling, of trying to coax him to stay with you, of doing anything in your power to MAKE him choose you) going to keep him home? You said you've read in his emails to ow that she is his "soul mate." how long ago did he write that? Is tearing yourself up going to make a difference?
I can say one thing to that though. if you dont try everything to fix it, you might regret it later. But if you continue in a perpetual state of trying to fix the marriage, you are going to be unhappy for a very long time. Used. Abused. Is it worth it? only YOU can tell! Your husband is quite clear what he wants. Until he has a change of heart, and tells you so, you are bowing down and groveling from what I see. You may not feel like it, and many times I didn't see it myself until later, but look to see if that is the case after all.
There is NO MARRIAGE until your h pulls his own weight. You are two zombies living together, one is hoping it will work out, the other is lost. You cannot read his mind, the labrynth of his soul... but you CAN read his actions. Of course he loves you still! My h loves me still. I love him still. You can't break a bond so easily. But he doesn't respect you, or else he wouldn't be lying.
If he wants the marrige to work, he needs to get out of his busness partnership with ow. But right now you don't want to put pressure on him. So you are taking that pressure. Your choice. I came to a spot where I said, ENOUGH! and that was that. You'll come to it too, and you'll know when. When you hit that point, dont' feel guilty, don't look back. It is not your fault because you have tried with a good heart... of course you did/do/will do things that weren't the smartest, or didn't handle it properly. But you have tried! The cry of your soul screams out for reconciliation. He knows it. Is there hope??????? I don't know! You don't know! So you are hanging on, hoping.
I can see you do not want to try Dr. Harley's plan, but I would suggest ordering his books and reading them at least. I haven't done that yet myself, so not meaning to be a hypocrite, but my marriage is dead, so I've got time to read up before getting hitched again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. read his books, ponder it, apply the principals to your life and situation. I don't have the tools to help you, but I am here, I am listening, and I am cheering for you with every ounce I have inside, and my heart strongly goes out to you. I know the pain and agony of soul, the despair and desperation, the willingness to do ANTHING because you love him with every fiber in your being. And you always will. But that love will change over time if you divorce and never get back together. mine is starting to. I can't say what its changing into because I can't put it into words yet.
As a long time has gone by, I am finally able to put into words my emotions from a long time ago. I am finally able to sort things, categorize it, and store it. I am making sense of chaos, and pain, and emotion, which is jolly hard to do!
I'm sure your h loves you, but he's also using you, so the love is dysfunctional. to reiterate, it is your choice to figure out how long you are willing to put up with this. Only you can decide.
I went to a revival with a friend the other night at the Baptist church, and the preacher said that "ya'll ain't Jesus" which made me laugh. I'm not used to the southern dialect, even though I've lived here for 8 years of my life, I've been gone for almost as long as that, and so now I get a kick out of the lingo and drawl. But its true. We aren't God. We are human. We make mistakes. But we can GROW from them and from others' mistakes as well.
I need to run, but I'll be watching you grow into a better person. Best of luck!