I've been looking at my actions, or rather reactions to my h recently, and I said to my self, oh my gosh I'm doing a natural plan A. So I thought I better come here to get support because it's taking a toll on me.

I just found out a couple months ago now, that the affair I thought was over for a year and a half well never died! And that he felt we needed a divorce, of course when asked why, (since we made so much progress in "recovery") he came up with a short list of really ridiculous reasons. They were all either petty, or well stupid. But I just found out about the fact that he was lying to me all over again, and faking recovery, etc, and that the best year of our marriage including a renewal of our vows, was all a joke, so I never fought the divorce talk. I just tried to understand WHY HE wanted one.

Anyway, no reconciliation talks either. I'm tired, soooo tired. I love the man but I just can't initiate these talks anymore, I can't allow myself to get so frustrated, or let him get a rise out of me. So I am agreeable most of the time now. Well it helped that me finally knowing the truth snapped me out of the last bit of depression I was in, (knowing the truth is sooo much better regardless of what it is for me, the anxiety of feeling your getting fed crap makes me crazy). And I quit smoking so I have a ton of energy.

I'm taking care of the kids and the house in a way I couldn't do through out all of this. It's like I'm better then pre affair! My motivation is not to please him, it's more for me, and for the kids, but it is a bonus that he is happy about it.

Anyway, we are still living together, though in his words "not together", yet we act like a married couple in every way. And we both acknowledge that our "relationship" is improving. My h refers to this as your numbers coming up in the lottery, on the day you stopped playing.

The ow and h share a child together as well, out of this affair. And despite the fact that he did acknowledge the affair continued, and even asked her to marry him. Well immediately after he says they are over... Yeah right.. I don't understand why he wants me to believe this, but I don't. And I've looked in email etc, to prove to myself that it is still going on, and he is still a liar, even though he is being wonderful to me. And yes, still going on, and the things he says to her make me cry. I've confronted him with this. And of course he does the fog babble and gets me on unreal technicalities in his mind, and rages that I invaded his privacy, and because we aren't "together" (like it's a middle school break up) it's none of my business, and has even told me to leave, several times for this..

Of course his "tantrum" subsides, and he's fine, though he has to make me feel like crap in order for him not to go insane I guess, and "keep" me where he wants me. (which he doesn't really have) The last one was the doozy, he said he was moving out of state, and basically leaving everyone including the kids.. Well I "lb'd" all over the place, because that was the last thing I ever expected from him and I thought it was a ridiculous ploy to get attention, and get what he wants. He apparently was also having a battle with ow, about visitation, though it could have been about their relationship , I have no idea.. He got himself in this mess but he is going to explode if he gets pulled on by either.

So I decided just to not pull anymore. Not say anything when I feel I'm being disrespected, etc, not to have ANY real expectations on him like a wife would. Just basically be there for him, like an old child hood friend that I am, and focus on my own life. I get annoyed with some of the situations he thinks are reasonable to put me through right now. But I just focus on the fact that this is NOT going to be my future! I am going to get separated shortly, and right now I just can't engage in anything heavy with him.

I know a big en for him is to not feel like MY feelings etc are more important then his, by over burdening him with them. So I haven’t. I'm being Respectful of him to a REDICULOUSE DEGREE, and feel like I'm disrespecting myself in the process. But it's all for a goal...

If we are to truly divorce I do NOT want it to be ugly. I know if I start demanding all sorts of respect well, he's going to react in his fog way, and I can’t afford to have him as my enemy right now, nor do I want him to be. We share children, and years together, and I want a peaceful break up, if there is to be one.

So I basically have to suck things up for this to happen. I am enjoying all of the good times we are able to have now, while in this natural plan A, and he's responding to it good I guess, because we are becoming a lot closer. But it's so hard because even though he acts like he totally loves me, I know he feels he is "dramatically" in love with her. I just can't handle this truly inside; it just doesn't seem possible with what I am getting from him. But it is.

Anyway I just need some support and guidance with this... I would love to save my marriage but I feel it's not possible with out going through the divorce and him feeling the real loss that he apparently wants, at this point. I just basicly cant fight for our marriage anymore, but still want it.

Though at this point I really feel like he's COMPLETLY torn, he really does love us both.

I honestly have no idea what to do..

thanks for any help you can give me

jmn <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I cant offer you any advise because I too am in a VERY similar situation..all I can say is that I am here to vent to..maybe we can find a way and work through this together

PLAN B...

The whole point of it being called plan A is because there is a Plan that follows...

Plan B...

you have plan a'd too long..

you have accepted and ARE accepting unrealistic and disrespectful actions in to YOUR universe...with no plan for YOU to change any of that....

ARK

Thank you jaded heart maybe, that would be great...

Ark, thanks but I actually never ever did a plan A. Not even in the beginning of all of this. I have been a raving lunatic basically. Shoot there is no way I could really let myself be a doormat, I never allowed any disrespect etc. And perhaps was to unapproachable, for my h. Which is why it is SOOO hard for me to except all of the disrespectfulness that I know is going on right now with him. It's going against who I am to "deal" with this in a calm manor, but I am, because I just can't do anything else anymore. The affair seemed to have died it's natural death, and we seemed to have come together naturally, and I was happy with all of the progress etc.

But the only thing we apparently progressed on was our "friendship" part of the relationship. Everything that is important within a marriage, well just isn't there. Oh there’s love, but not honesty, monogamy, etc... And apparently hasn't been.

So you see I just started plan A naturally, hmm just within this last month, and it is bringing us closer.

I am going to move out anyway, that's the plan, so this is not going to be what I altimetry except from him. I couldn't possibly I'm tooo strong of a woman, and way to emotional. But finally I'm emotionally numb enough to do what I'm doing, and it hit me like a ton of bricks that what I am doing naturally was plan A...

I never did this before because it seemed like manipulation, so plan A and b were out for me, way back in the beginning of all of this. I know it's not manipulation, but that's how it sat with me, and I couldn't do it.

But apparently I am, and I plan on doing just what I'm doing until I CAN get my own place.

I am not going to have my children see less of me because it's time for me to plan b, because it's not. I have been a stay at home mom all of these years, and I need to find a means to support myself and a home for the kids. That's in the works right now. When I can I will reluctantly pull away from my h because I have to. I would have no self worth if I didn't afterwards, with knowing what I know. But I know it will be extremely hard for me when the time comes because, our relationship, in it of it self feels great. Shoot if I didn't know there was an ow, I surly wouldn't think there was now... But I do know, and of course if we did end up working things out, we would have to face real issues like me involved with visitation etc, of oc, I can't deal with feeling how I do, about the oc. I mean for God sake, I don't even know his daughter, just have seen her a couple of times, it's a HUGE DEAL to me. But for some reason I have a hope that we can still do this.

This last month or so has given me great encouragement. And I really just need support. And advice.. Plan B is too premature, simply because I just started plan A, with well giving up, in a sence. I'm not "trying" to get any reasults from him at this point, just trying to servive all of this, but by doing that, well we are getting closer. So I want to see where this goes, it maybe no where, but I need to see.

Even though this affair is almost 4 years long, right now I know this is what I need to do. For more reasons then to even see if there’s a chance with our marriage, but also to insure that things stay peaceful. We were separated during most of the affair in the beginning; this is the FIRST time I have to actually feel what you all go through with having the affair right under your nose. The times it was going on while I was living with him, well I really had no idea. I'm having a real hard time with knowing what's going on, and him looking in my eyes softly and telling me he loves me, or rubbing my hair etc. When I know it is not meant the same way as when I do that to him..

Basically I want to walk away from this relationship knowing that I have done EVERYTHING POSIBLY WITHIN MY CONTROL. And also knowing that ALL of the “reasons” given to me as to why we “need” a divorce are FALSE! I DO NOT want him to find comfort in those copouts when/if we get a divorce. I want him to KNOW that we COULD have something wonderful, because he FELT it…. So when I move out, and ow puts the pressure on him to commit etc, he remembers how things were with ME…..

I have a total plan, and these events have only just started since summer began. Like I said we were "in recovery" before that, and I was NOT having to go threw any of this kind of stuff. But it turns out the recovery well was not real.

Hope this cleared things up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Actually I am more confused...

Are you saying your plan is to plan A and then move towards a divorce

Ark,

Well yes, simply because well that's what HE wants. I'm going to go along and separate, and we will see what happens.

He is saying divorce, that we are not "together" , bla bla, but at the same time is loving what we have, and where we are.

After 4 years, I at least need to separate, regardless of how well, plan "A" is going. TO SHOW him that I can live with out him, and I plan on "respecting" what he wants. Or at least expressed what he wants. If we are to work things out ark, it's going to be under extreme circumstances that must be created. Which is why yes, I plan on separating, and if he wants to file right away, he's going to have to be the one to do it. With an oc involved and the ow so involved with h right now, well if he truly wants our relationship, a lot of things need to change. And as long as I'm under the same roof, he's going to feel like he is in just as much control as he ever was with all of that.

I need to take control away from him. Meaning take control of my life bit by bit, and separate myself from him. Cut him off from a relationship that feels warm and cozy and good. And perhaps that means following threw with the divorce. I'm not going to beg him for this marriage, he should be begging me, with all that I accepted for him, and all I tried to understand. He does not SEE all of this, or he would not be able to do what he is. He does not truly see my WORTH. He has always had me in his life from his early teens, and he well I think, thinks I will NEVER leave him.

But while I’m hear I am going to enjoy all of the good we share, and I will miss it. But if I stayed, I would basically be agreeing to an open marriage. Which I can't do.. Because it's clear NOTHING is going to change under the same roof, regardless of how good things gets. He's figured out how to balance all of it, and keep everyone happy. And well that's to scary for me, honestly..

We might have to divorce to save our marriage.. If that makes sense. I hope not, but I will not fight for it, because I already have.

Sorry to confuse you, we have a lot of, well different dynamics going on in our situation.

I dont find your situation different....

and don't make the mistake of believing that so that it clouds your judgement.....

how old is the OC
how old are your children
do you and he have vistitation
is he financially responsible for all the kids...
what is your vision of your children with with the OC
do your children know there is an oc
do you know the Ow

what are your terms for reconcilliation if he came to you today and said he would commit 100000000% what would you ask for...

ark

Though all of that is true, I do want to save our relationship, and I would love to be wrong about what I think has to happen. In the mean time, yes I'm "plan Aing", I guess, and things are working out. There is still an ow, though he clams theres not, I know better. But there is progress..

I don't really know what to say.. I want to spend my life with him..

Ark, just saw your post, let me take a minute to respond

Ok, ark here you go


The oc is 1 1/2
our children are 12,11,6,5,4

Ok, my h sees the oc almost everyday at ow's house. She has been controlling the visitation, which also allowed for her to have a control over my h, and has allowed the affair to continue. This past year the kids hardly saw there sister, unless h took them over to her house to see oc.(yes they know ow, while we were separated, they had visitation for 3 months) They are starting to see her more, it's over here, and I do leave so that they can finally have time with their sister.

H is financially responsible for all of the kids, though not court ordered. To complicate things more, h and her own a business together and finagle funds between them to accommodate everyone’s needs. He also does not have legal visitation, which is a huge problem and has strung this whole thing along.

I do know the ow actually, we have had several encounters over the years. Unfortunately though we did not get stuck with a "normal" person gone astray, she is very manipulative, controlling, and lies all the time. She has lied to me and about me, manipulated me to the point of comforting her both on the phone, and in person. And she still has the gal to think I’m a horrible person/mother.. And basically views herself as the primary relationship, making me the ow, lol.. It's really screwed up. I've been so respectful to her given the situation, and well she can't bare to be the same way, even though there are children involved. Which puts MORE of a burden on me to look out for all of them, within this situation. I am SOOO pissed actually that both h and ow, aren't doing more to get ALL of the kids together. I don't care if I had to leave the house EVERY DAY for a couple of hours if I had to just to get them all together! The oc is getting to old not to have a real bond with her siblings and it bothers me a great deal. Even though I do not have a good opinion of ow, I will say that she is turning out to be a great mom.

Ok, as far as what I want for the kids and oc, I want my children regardless of what happens with their father and I to have a GREAT relationship with there half sister. I want them to totally be bonded to her, and totally feel like she is there flesh and blood. I do NOT want oc to feel "different" in this situation, not at all. And I was and am willing to FULLY except oc into my life, if given the opportunity.


Oh gosh, if my h came to me with 100% commitment. (I can't imagine this ever happening)... I would ask him for this..

I would ask him for some time still apart because I have to have him be TOTALY SURE this time.

I would ask that he dissolves the business and goes out on his own, like he did before their was an ow, the business has been an aid to the affair in every way.

I would ask that he goes to court and fights for partial custody, not just visitation. And that she be aware that I am going to be apart of oc's life because I am a part of his life.

I would want him to go to counseling, because I do not believe he is strong enough to follow threw with anything like what I described above, and I believe he is to moment to moment in his life, and not big picture/future oriented.

As far as that, I'm not what else I would need. The rest I'm sure would work it self out. But you see this would never happen like this, because my h can't be "told" what to do, he would rebel, or feel trapped.

But these are boundaries that I know I have within myself that I couldn't honestly accept less, because I already have and thought things would just "progress" naturally. Though the ow is able to get away with the demands etc, and still have him running to her, begging for their relationship. I really don’t get it, that would NEVER work for me. I sometimes feel like maybe he really did find “the love of his life” and I was just a vehicle to which to grow up with..

Whew..

I may delete this part of my post later because, the ow used to read on the other board I used to go to and I really don't want her to be able to identify me over here. she does know of this sight, and posted on here a long time ago, it was a big mess actually, back when I posted under a different name and was new to all of this mess..

seek legal counsel asap...even if you have to get the ball rolling through free financial aide which may take weeks till available start somewhere now....

wow....the concern is what this does to your own self worth and psyche....

it seems that you need to establish financial security for your children.....
first via your husband...
court mandated
then through your own ability to work...but the kicker is that amount of money it would cost for you to work OUTSIDE the home...

you said..
Ok, as far as what I want for the kids and oc, I want my children regardless of what happens with their father and I to have a GREAT relationship with there half sister. I want them to totally be bonded to her, and totally feel like she is there flesh and blood.

that's an unrealistic expectation...
AND
it's out of your control...
you need to change that you want your children to be raised to treat their half sibling with respect and love always even when that contact is threatened and hindered by the OP...

that's the best you can hope for...

WHY WOULD YOU AND WHY SHOULD YOU LEAVE YOUR OWN HOME WHEN THE OC COMES OVER...ESPECIALLY A 1-1/2 YEAR OLD??
WHAT IS THAT ABOUT...

you need a well detailed time line so that you can survive temporarily in this environment...

aRK

jaded heart,

I just read some of your thread, and boom these words of your hit me..

"he described her as a female version of himself", umm mine too.. But it seems to be mainly the bad traits they share. It's weird how there is even similarities with that.

yup ! pretty much the bad traits or what you could call undesirable...

Ark,

Thanks,umm I'll do some thinking..

As far as leaving my home, well this isn't my home, my h got a new house, I was supposed to be living with my grandmother, until I could get on my feet, but h and I were enjoying our time around each other, I guess because it was from free choice or something. And I ended up just staying here.

I am going to be staying here until I get on my own two feet, that has already been discussed. I do not believe in alimony etc, so that is not something I'm willing to consider, or even talk about because I get so much ****** about it from everyone in my life as it is. I want as much FULL time with my kids as possible, because the moment I move, we are doing half time.

We agree on all terms of the divorce, if it actually gets that far..

So anyway, I leave HIS home for the ow and oc to come over because the ow will not let my H have the oc by himself. Like I said she's very controlling and he allows it.

What I would like to see for my children and oc, is COMPLETLY out of my control, of course it is. But I can be sad about it and frustrated. Shoot most of this situation has been out of my control and I have many emotions about it. My h wants all of his children to be very close, and I completely accept that it is up to ow and h on what they want to do. I am not one to get into the mix with all of that, I accept their right to co parent. But some things would have to change if we truly were reconciling.

I wont change anything I'm doing with my children, I do not discourage them bonding with oc and I would never, regardless of what ow, decides to do or not... Eventually my h will make sure things are consistent with them, though that might not be for awhile, I know it will happen.

Luckily, my 4 year old is the only one at home right now, and I do finally have time to even think. So it wont be so hard to work outside the home, actually I'm looking to work inside the home because I'm starting a home based business.. Well cross your fingers anyway..

So that's it hugh... See my situation is so extreme, it sends everyone running, and asking, why would you want to try. A lot of the reasons things are so complicated steam from the fact that we were so young when we got together. I know that is why there is a constant rebellion from me, but also a need for me from h. I still could use some help, any other insight?

Wanted to add, that I am suprisinly out of my depreshion though since the last d day.. And I have quite smoking, started exercising, and can actually keep on top of things in my life again. All though my soul is strained, shoot and my brain, my self worth is strong and intact. Though I will never understand, why he isn't so happy I'm his partner? I keep on thinking, he has to be in the fog because we are a great team, and I know we have a great bond and love for one another. But it still goes on, and I get all confused..

if you are married then it is NOT your husbands house..,it is everyones house...


alimony is not some scape goating money sponge....especially with five children...may turn out that you CAN"T afford ot work...

smarter for you to make moves based on financial support from husband with out you having a job at first...then make that move....

this is so messed up...

what does this teach the children....
the over all picture...

about men in children lives...who can toy with them yet never have any real accountability...

are you saying he is planning on kicking you and the children out of some home and moving the OW in...

are you saying the PLAN is YOU move out and leave the children there!

ARK

Justmenow,
I have just my four year old at home now. It's nice, isn't it, with the others off to school? We just got back from a nice long bike ride and baked a cake together that just went into the oven.

It seems to me that you are accepting the fact that no one can control your husband's behavior except him, and that's a step in the right direction.

This is from a book that is more extensively summarized below, called The Solo Spouse: "Start thinking along the lines that your partner may not change. The focus then shifts from your partner to yourself. Then you reach the point of realization where you begin to find solutions to your problems...Having accepted that the problem is not going to go away, you must ask yourself what you are going to do about it and whether you are willing to settle for this situation."

One thing I have come to realize is that it takes two to make a great marriage but only one to not tolerate a bad one. You are not able to create a great marriage. You are only able to not tolerate a bad one.

Cherished


Here's the summary I made of the book The Solo Spouse:

Chapter 1 The Pain of Change
Put pain to constructive use to resolve your relationship problems.
The only person you can directly change is yourself.
By changing yourself, you can indirectly change your partner.
The key to change is maintaining effort.

Chapter 2 Self-Deception: Our Inner Enemy
Accept responsibility.
We deceive ourselves by overlooking, rationalizing, justifying.
False hope is the belief that the cause of and solution to our predicament rests outside us.
We become open to change after a period of hopelessness.
Emotional reactivity is progressive.

Realization is when we begin to focus not on our partners but on ourselves.
Before realization, we have a complacent, unrealistically hopeful attitude.
With realization, we liberate ourselves from self-deception. This involves grieving, and these are the feelings involved:
1) Denial: this can’t really be happening.
2) Anger: hurt; anger directed at partner; why was I so stupid?
3) Despair: unhappiness as we feel the full weight of the loss of our dream; self-doubt, loneliness, and fatigue.
4) Acceptance: stronger sense of personal responsibility; no longer see ourselves as innocent victims.
The last glimmer of false hope has been extinguished.

By seeing through our own self-deceptions and facing any personal shortcomings, we upset the status quo in our relationship.

Chapter 3 Emotional Reactivity: An Endless Cycle in Troubled Marriages
Act: something we do of our own volition
React: behave in opposition to our natural behavior or in response to pressure from someone else

Pattern for emotional reactivity:
1) Emotional triggers can lead to a reaction based solely on immediate emotional impulses and without thought of future consequences.
2) The partner needs to be drawn in; baiting can then occur and the provoker is satisfied by the response.
3) Escalation occurs when each partner focuses on the other. The goal is not to resolve an issue. It is to hurt, defy, spite, attack, defend, patronize, or provoke.
4) Recovery may not happen.

Nonengagement starves emotional reactivity.
High emotional reactivity will shut down communication and low reactivity will open it up.

Stages in the process of change:
1) What needs changing is identified, and an alternative behavior is planned.
2) When the situation comes up, the behavior is the same.
3) The situation is recognized, but the behavior is the same.
4) The situation is recognized, and the alternative behavior is followed.

Keep your plan and goal to yourself.

When your partner starts a reactive exchange, identify the baiting behavior. People usually have only about 6 – 10 baiting behaviors.

Chapter 4 Being Defensive: The Illusion of Self-Protection
Being defensive is one of the ways we cover up certain of our recurrent behaviors rather than trying to change them, and denial is one of our most common mechanisms. Our defensiveness keeps us from seeing ourselves realistically, in spite of he feedback we receive about our need to change. Denial followed by attack moves the focus off ourselves and onto our partners, so that we can see their every shortcoming, and none of our own.

Once we are defensive, we see all information as threatening and attacking. We cannot distinguish between a valid complaint and a hostile retaliation. We do not evaluate the truthfulness of the message but rather dismiss the criticism so that we are protected from immediate emotional discomfort. Interpretations and assumptions are made that support what we want to hear rather than what was actually said. If some information was taken in, it is explained away, simply denied, or the subject is changed. Then we counterattack and escalate.

Your real power for improvement lies in unraveling your own defensive mechanisms. Try to accept that there will be pain when you start coming to terms with the truth of what is being said to you, and remember that you will benefit in the long run. If a criticism was accurate, the fastest way to get over your pain is to start working on changing the criticized behavior. Observe, listen, and reflect, rather than automatically dismissing, blaming, or attacking the messenger.

Chapter 5 Togetherness: Balancing “I” and “We”
The ideal balance is for the partners to develop an ability to act together as well as apart, and to feel part of a “we” without feeling they are giving up their individuality and uniqueness. When agreements are forced, it often means no longer expressing true feelings because doing so would leave the person open to attack or ridicule. This in turn leads to resentment. True “I” statements are made as an action and are open to new information and input from others. Reactive “I” statements are made to defy, hurt, spite, placate, manipulate, or intimidate the other person or to defend oneself.

When people do not respect each other’s opinions, the thing they have the right opinion and try to force that opinion on others. Real communication ends as both attack each other’s opinions and defend their own. The key is to learn to express our opinions while not defending ourselves against attack. By not defending yourself against attack, you alone can create an atmosphere where differences will at least be tolerated and at best will enrich both lives. There is an old saying – “Never answer an angry word with an angry word – it is the second word that makes the quarrel.”

No victory can come from intimidating someone into agreeing with you. No victory comes from keeping silent and giving in to placate your partner. If you lie either to yourself or your partner about who you really are, both you and your relationship will suffer.

The key to success lies in confronting yourself and in not confronting your partner. Long-lasting improvement in any relationship comes more from changing negative behavior than from expressing negative feelings.

You will need to learn how to express you opinion as a subjective view rather than as an absolute truth. When you find yourself under attack, concentrate on not defending your opinion; simply state your view and say nothing more. Do not explain why you feel this way, or answer your partner’s charges, or try to reason with or persuade him. Nothing more needs to be said or done. Your opinion is simply a statement of what you think, feel or believe. Always keep in mind that your goal is to express and respect your mutual differentness. Learn to state your position without being drawn into an argument.

The stages of success are:
1) a mutual cessation of attack or retaliation when differences emerge
2) each of you are more open to the differences between you
3) a mutual respect for your differences will emerge.

Chapter 6 Dealing with “Who is to Blame?”
Blame is most frequently communicated in the form of “you” statements, such as “Why did you” and often implies that the partner had ulterior motives or intentionally did something injurious. Laying blame will always cause a reaction.

Assume that each of us is responsible for our own actions. Trying to force your partner to see his own faults will only worsen the relationship. When we focus on ourselves and work on our own problems, our life with our partner improves. It is counterproductive to vent. Release your feelings on another way. Learn to not react to your partner’s retaliations, no matter how provocative and malicious they seem to be.

Decide ahead of time what point you want to convey. Plan to convey that point in a nonreactive way by making brief “I” statements. Stay away from statements about what your partner is doing to you. Instead, concentrate on what you have allowed to be done to you. Focus on specific behaviors rather than a condemnation of your partner in general. Take responsibility for change where it can have some positive outcome.

Learn to identify the area in which your partner blames you and observe exactly what is said and how it is said. Before you react, try to understand what part is truly your own responsibility. Then try to distinguish between what your partner is blaming you for and what you are responsible for. Never try to convince your partner to accept your view; never ridicule or attack your partner in reaction to a provocation. If your partner reacts, say nothing. Not reacting to blame is what will ultimately reach your partner. It’s OK to say “I don’t want to talk anymore right now. I’m too upset.”

Chapter 7 Using Your Anger Constructively
What to do with anger?
1) Express it, and the result is reactive confrontations or alienation from partner
2) Do not vent it, and you are drained emotionally and physically

What are forms of anger?
1) Shouting or screaming
2) Not saying anything
3) Bodily reactions
4) Delayed behavior
5) Tone of voice

Different stages of anger:
1) Unresolved anger can turn into resentment and then bitterness
2) There is a need for a reactive encounter regardless of future consequences
3) The reactive infection stage
4) Escalation

A common source of anger is our expectations. There are three things you can do:
1) Smolder in your anger
2) Lower your unmet expectations
3) Leave the relationship
If you lower your expectations, you can honestly reevaluate both your relationship and yourself. You need to deal with reality. When you lower your expectations, you also must see your own faults as well and move toward a solution. By focusing on your own shortcomings, you can learn that your partner has a great deal of justification for his complaints. The less we expect of our partners (and the more we expect of ourselves), the more we receive. When an attitude of “expect nothing, get nothing” dominates a relationship, people stop doing something for their partner unless it is angrily demanded.

Nothing constructive comes from out-of-control anger. Start thinking along the lines that your partner may not change. The focus then shifts from your partner to yourself. Then you reach the point of realization where you begin to find solutions to your problems. Your pain is due to the death of your self-deception. Work at getting behind the anger to the hurt, disappointment, and finally the loss you feel. When you accept this loss, you will also eliminate your anger. The bigger the fantasy and the longer it was held, the more time it is likely to take to give it up.

Having accepted that the problem is not going to go away, you must ask yourself what you are going to do about it and whether you are willing to settle for this situation.
It is easier to vent at the partner than to look at your own shortcomings. We may try dealing with reality, but reality will deal with us.

Chapter 8 Pursuit and Distance Between Partners
The pursuer seeks togetherness at the expense of personal autonomy and individuality. She feels emotionally secure only when her life revolves around others. The distancer feels crowded. She emotionally pursues him by wanting to know what he feels, wanting resolution of their problem, and wanting it at once. Concurrently, he distances himself emotionally from her, seeking space to think about it, hoping the problem will go away by itself or that she will wait until he comes up with a solution in his own time and way. For every step she takes toward him, he moves one away from her.

The pursuer gives up and looks for other ways to fill the emptiness. The distancer’s self-centeredness and isolation lead to boredom and emptiness. He also seeks ways to relieve his discomfort. Pursuit and distancer problems often start when a legal or emotional commitment is made to the marriage. The pursuer needs to acknowledge the gap between her expectations and reality.

Both pursuit and distance are reactive behaviors which become progressively worse over time, unless one partner’s efforts succeed in putting a stop to them. Change will be initiated by the person who is most uncomfortable. He will change only when he fears losing the pursuer. Distancers tend to change in direct proportion to how much their pursuers modify their pursuit.

These are the pursuer’s options:
1) continue the pursuit in the hope of emotionally engaging the partner; this is a fantasy which ultimately leads to frustration, exhaustion, and emotional bankruptcy
2) separate
3) stop pursuing

Pursuers are addicted to togetherness and the need to stay in a relationship – even a bad one. They settle for very little and express their disappointment, frustration, and anger in hostile, critical ways. They become responsible for other people’s problems. This caretaking can become manipulative and controlling, and can backfire because people resist efforts to change them. They find it easy to blame others.

Pursuer can only reach the distancer by distancing herself from him – emotionally and physically. The only way to catch a distancer is to be more distance than he is.




Chapter 9 Stopping Pursuit: Guidance for Pursuers

Never pursue a distancer. Do as little as possible for him and with him, with the goal of doing absolutely nothing. Learn how to fill your life in new ways, seeking other people who will meet your emotional needs. You will be forced to develop some emotional autonomy. Change your expectations and give up the pursuit. Your improvement can occur only after your illusion of finding happiness and completeness through someone else collapses. Pursuers tend to follow, but distancers tend to procrastinate, so it is up to the pursuer to make changes.

Ark,

I don't disagree with you, this is messed up. Everything! The way he is thinking that he is doing me a "favor" for "letting" me stay here after 14 years of marriage is messed up. Him asking me to leave for ow and oc to come over is messed up. Him doing any of this is messed up. But you know what, what ever. I am done with arguing with him, I’m so tired ARK. He does not want to think about ME.. He just wants to enjoy the good we share, he doesn't want to think about my feelings etc, and that's just the way it is. Which is why I said my "plan b" will be leading to divorce because I'm just not fighting the stupidity and fuzzy logic anymore. He wants to act like this fine, eventually he will see that he was a total [censored], and he will feel bad. I can say that with confidence because I grew up with him, and I do know HIM, this fogged up a hole is not him, though it is right now.

The kids. Actually the kids are absolutely fine. Completely well adjusted, and we handled all of this very well with them. I mean it was way better then I thought it would be. The oc got explained because we were actually going to divorce after I found out about the pregnancy, the kids new we were getting a divorce, then they knew dad had a girlfriend (which they did know as dad's employee/friend before) and then that she was going to have a baby... Then we ended up getting back together, and well we've talked with them about the fact that it looks like we are going to divorce. This has been over a 2-year time frame and things to them look BLACK AND WHIGHT, even though they are not. They do not know the oc is a child of an affair, and do not think of the ow like that. And have felt NO animosity between anyone, though our oldest suspects there is because ow and I do not see each other face to face and the oldest are frustrated I don't get to see oc, and that they don't see her enough.

Umm my children have learned a lot about love and strength through all of this, and I have too, actually partially thanks to them, and their ability to love and bend..

Men in children’s lives? My h is going to have them HALF time, which means just as much as me. He is a very active father. And we plan on still doing activates together as a group.

Look he will have his "accountability" from someone that can give it to him, I'm not that person. I am not going to "teach him a lesson" or something like that. I want to hopefully have a real friendship after divorce if it comes to that, but at least be able to co parent. I will not hold hostility within me, it just festers, and to me that teaches the children a whole lot of stuff I'd rather not!

No he's not planning on kicking me and the kids out, though me being here is "optional".

The plan is that I move out get my own place and we do half time with the kids, that's the plan.

I have NO idea what he is doing with ow, none. I don't have a clue if once I'm out, he moves her in. I doubt if that happens, that it would happen fast because of the kids. But I have no idea. I do know that if that does happen then I will be done for sure. Because I can't deal with that again.

I really don't want to focus on what will happen if/when we get a divorce right now, I have plenty of time to worry about all of that.

Right now I'm concentrating more on the fact that things are getting better between us. And I would like some insight with that. Now that I've given up, things are getting God so much better.. (but of course it is still not a "marriage") That's really what I want to focus on..

Believe me I do know how screwed up this all is, I'm living it, I don't think he realizes though, which is the scary part. I however do know.. And thank God the children, have a totally normal life, they literally are protected from this drama.

Charished,

THANK YOU!!!

That is exactly where I am right now, exactly.. I haven't yet read through your whole post, but I plan on it right now!

And yes it is nice to have this one on one time with my youngest. Most of her life I've been going threw this with my h, so well this light load is really nice right now, and I'm enjoying every minute of it...

thanks again, I was starting to feel like a freek show..

I don't disagree with you, this is messed up. Everything! The way he is thinking that he is doing me a "favor" for "letting" me stay here after 14 years of marriage is messed up.

you need to find out your legal rights to assetts and the home etc...I totally support not powerstruggling his nonsense...but I don't agree with you going belly up on it....(not saying that is what you are doing...but warning you that it is dangerous to think so)

The oc got explained because we were actually going to divorce after I found out about the pregnancy, the kids new we were getting a divorce, then they knew dad had a girlfriend (which they did know as dad's employee/friend before) and then that she was going to have a baby..

so the children believe in a marriage that you can say it's over and say you are going to get a divorce and then one or the other adult can go out and have a girlfriend or boyfriend and that is OK>....

They do not know the oc is a child of an affair, and do not think of the ow like that.

is there a plan for them to ever know the truth as they age....

here's where my concerns are about you...

you say you two are good partners...yet he doesn't ACT like a good partner...it's probably closer that you BEHAVE well and things are fine and good...meaning less chaos and stress and less anger and mean-ness against you...
in other words...you put up and shut up...and all is good...

good fathers establish legal rights to children as necessary to insure that the children do not become pawns...yet he has not done that....and that threatens the whole foundation of this family unit

Right now I'm concentrating more on the fact that things are getting better between us.

I am concerned that this is only because you have quit saying anything....

your comment about not pursueing alamony because of what other people say concerns me....

your continual insistance that he is a good dad...when the house if full of elephants and lies concerns me...

it's one thing to protect children from unecessary realities and harm.....and to be full aware that is what you are doing with plans to rectify as ages and time become appropriate...
it is another thing to create illusions and lies that have potential to destroy their foundation...

it is another thing to make false realities to them..mommy and daddy were 'going to divorce' so daddy took a break and had a girlfriend...and now daddy has a baby with the girlfriend.....
a woman who wields enough power in the eyes of children to make mommy disappear....

they know you two are getting a divorce right now even as we speak...when do they think this is going to happen??

I am just seeking info on this....
not judging....

ARK

Ark,

I'm not sure what you’re trying to get at..

"so the children believe in a marriage that you can say it's over and say you are going to get a divorce and then one or the other adult can go out and have a girlfriend or boyfriend and that is OK>...."

Look I don't think it's OK, never said I did, BUT I HAD to work with the situation. It's not like it could be ignored. The fact is she became pregnant, and we had to explain it, in the best way we felt. I don't believe in dating while separated, but that's just ME, if he was acting as mature as I am regarding marriage etc, then I wouldn't be here because there wouldn't be an affair to begin with.. Look what do you want from me, LOTS of people date while separated and shoot that's what we see all the time. I didn't want this, and I don't think it's great that my kids HAD to be told that, but it was the best we could do in the situation, and quit frankly I'm glad we were not living under one roof and that they were together through the pregnancy etc. With the way we are raising our kids, I wouldn't have wanted to TELL them that their dad had an affair, and well how do you not tell them that while all under one roof... I'm glad my children do not have a poor image of their dad, their sister and their life. And this situation isn't ideal but it is what it is, and I'm thankful for the way we handled it, despite the unfortunatnes that we couldn't give our children what we both wanted, which was a marriage more complete then what it is..

I don't ever understand the point of comments like this, that have to do with something so far in the past that just can't be changed, and are obviously sensitive.

"you say you two are good partners...yet he doesn't ACT like a good partner..."

Of course you are right with this.. There are however many levels with people and within a relationship. We are good partners, but he is not fully in our partnership is he.. He might just have a toe dipped in it, but it is what it is.

"it's probably closer that you BEHAVE well and things are fine and good...meaning less chaos and stress and less anger and mean-ness against you..."

Hmm, I think at this point, it's closer to the fact that he's had two women for the last 4 years, and he's tired. He is tired of feeling pulled in both directions, he doesn't want to deal with anyone’s s*it, he doesn't want to hear about anyone’s feelings, he's ready to pop.. It's easier to take things out on me, or have unrealistic expectations of me, because he expects me to love him, and well you take those for granted that are close to you and have been in your life for ever, unfortunately. Shoot to a degree I did the same, pre affair.. I know HE created this situation, and it's not like I'm like oh poor baby. But I am empathetic to his plight. Because I do love him, and I don't like it that he's all jumbled up inside.


"in other words...you put up and shut up...and all is good..."

Recently, as post this last d-day, yeah sounds about right. But that's not how things have been. And I realize this is affair related, and he "can't handle" everything going on, because, well, it's REAL..

"good fathers establish legal rights to children as necessary to insure that the children do not become pawns..."

Come on, he was used to dealing with someone reasonable like me, in regards to the children, he thought (in his ignorance and unwillingness to listen) that it would be best if they worked it out for themselves, without all the legal bull.. Anyway, we both thought that while she was a baby baby and still nursing, it probably wasn't a good idea to have visitations in the home, because we both felt she needed to totally be bonded with HER mother, and not be confused. He got plenty of time with her, I didn't get in the way of that.

He just is recently realizing that regardless of any agreement she ultimately has the power, and well he needs to get things legalized, which is apparently something he is perusing. He is a great father.

"yet he has not done that....and that threatens the whole foundation of this family unit"

But he is a weak person right now emotionally, some people threaten suicide, he threatened to leave town.. Some people crack under extreme circumstance. And honestly I'm sure he thought, ahh, that would be great to escape. But actually doing it, is something totally different, I don't really think it's a possibility, but it did show me how emotionally unstable he is right now, even though most of the time he doesn't look it.

"it's one thing to protect children from unnecessary realities and harm.....and to be full aware that is what you are doing with plans to rectify as ages and time become appropriate...
it is another thing to create illusions and lies that have potential to destroy their foundation...

it is another thing to make false realities to them..mommy and daddy were 'going to divorce' so daddy took a break and had a girlfriend...and now daddy has a baby with the girlfriend.....
a woman who wields enough power in the eyes of children to make mommy disappear...."

No one could ever make MOMMY disappear for them, thank GOD I never viewed things like that and I have great communication with my children, I handled the situation wonderfully. The questions, everything. This is all ancient history.

What do you want from me? I do not subscribe to the theory of destroying a child’s innocence and respect for their father. And at that point I was not sure if the ow was going to be their step mother for Gods sakes, I was certainly not going to scold either of them in the children’s eyes. What good would that do.. And don't give me that old bs, bs, saying, "oh he did that for himself", or " well he doesn't deserve their respect", or any of that other bull. I don't believe a child should have to face certain realities about their parents. The marriage is separate from the relationship between parent and child.

I'm afraid when your in the situation it's quit difference, you can sit on a soap box when it comes to some things, but I'll tell you, when it comes to my kids, I do my BEST and I will not be told that it wasn't enough!!!


"they know you two are getting a divorce right now even as we speak...when do they think this is going to happen??"


We had a general talk with them about it, and they know we are not sure of anything quite yet, but they are prepared that we are going to have two houses again etc, like with our last separation. They know I'm working on a home business.

The [email]h@ll[/email] your not judging, in what way are you trying to be supportive of me, or give me any kind of real advice. You are being judgmental of me, how I've handled things, and my family, shoot even the dynamics of my situation which are what they are. I'm very frustrated right now.

You know I’ve had to defend myself enough unnecessarily for years, ok, and I really have no interest in doing that with a stranger. I’m here for support, and encouragement.