OK - yesterday was bad. My wife came home livid and not wanting to talk to me.

In the midst of the time since D-day (9/28), I've wanted to confront OM. I've wanted to both beat the snot out of him and also reason w/ him. Considering the fact that he apparently has 30 lbs. on me and is a black belt - beating the snot out of him would be difficult. But despite the anger I have, my desire to confront has been steady even in moments of clarity. I guess throughout all the BS that I've gone through - and that I've seen my WW go through - I felt it was my right to stop and say something.

So I elected to write a letter to him. And I delivered it over a week ago.

When my WW came home - it was due to the fact that she found out about it. She says she was told not by him, (she has maintained NC for 2 months) - but by a common friend (which I don't regard as a very good one - but she does).

She felt betrayed. If radical honesty entailed my telling her about this immediately - then I guess I failed. But I felt this was a communication - a "voice" that I wanted to be heard to someone involved in this whole struggle. My intention was to tell her - but only after she seemingly was emerging from the fog. Was this wrong of me?

IN the ensuing discussion - which got heated due to the fact that she felt it was a slap in her face vs. an effort on my part to voice my pain to him.........she felt I had set her and us back big time. I told her - and this is honest - that I was going to tell her eventually......but that I didn't even think she'd know about it........and that I was telling her later. She doesn't believe me.

Later in the day I started to get upset about the manner in which she found out. This "friend" she has - has unfortunately been one that's friendship has been damaging and I'm threatened by........whether it's understandable or my own paranoia - ?? - I don't know. This friend is who she met OM through. This friend is someone that's marriage just ended. This friend is when during my WW's "support" during her early days of "newly singlehood" - she met OM through. This friend knew of my WW's A. This friend has been kept somewhat "removed" from me. This friend has brought up in the past the OM to my WW and upset her.

I have had little contact with this friend - other than a few e-mails asking support......but this friend I believe doesn't feel comfortable with me contacting her.........and niether does my WW. My W feels that I'm "going around her" and being secretive and therefore my contact with "this friend" of hers stopped over 2 months ago. However - in one of my communications with her friend - I asked her to never mention OM.......that it upset my W greatly and it was extremely counterproductive. To please not do that.

So - when I found out about this friend telling her about the letter I delivered and the resulting chaos.......I was mad and wanted to say something to her. My W flipped. She did not want me to - that I was trying to end their friendship.

I was upset. My voice was elevated. I was telling her that she was not letting me be rightfully angry and telling her that she was negating my feelings. I was upset at her friend doing the complete opposite of what I asked - and for no reason other than to shake things up (my opinion anyway). Our 5 year old came in - and got upset because we were arguing. My wife started getting physical w/ me and threatening me because our daughter was upset and blamed me for it. She was getting mean and spouting off all kinds of things to hurt me.

I'm I LB'ing here? Am I doing something wrong? She has calmed down somewhat here.......but offers no apologies for the vicious things she said. She acts like she doesn't even like me. When I asked her what her reaction would have been if I had done what she had when she was irate - her answer was "you'd be in jail".

What am I doing wrong here?

OK this was not good. You should not have sent the letter. However this friend of hers is not a friend to the M. This friendship must end. The fact that this woman is tellingt your WW about OM is very bad. You boht LB'd here but we are all human. Your wife is still in the fog -especially with getting reports of him from her friend. I am not very good at this plus I have not had my coffee -hopefully others here will help.

Maybe your wife doesn't want you to contact her friend because she wasn't the one that told her. Are you sure about NC?

I agree with Lealas. Seems like a huge red flag to me.

This friend of your wife, did she help enable her affiar?

And lastly, why should your wife care a wit about OM? She should care about you, and your feelings. OM's feelings can go to heck. What kind of scum pursues married women?

Her level of discomfort sounds like she wants to protect OM from anything you have to say or share.

Often times WS lie to OP's as much as they lie to thier spouses. He may have no idea about what you sent to him. She may have told him something completely different than what you told him, and now she looks like a liar to OM. (OM already knows she lies, they were having an affair, unless he is so naive to think he's different)

I had a red flag like this also. Turned out my wife had never stopped her contact. We're getting divorced now, she's made her choices.

I would start looking for evidence of contact, without alerting your wife. If she thinks you suspect she will start hiding it better.

I hope I'm wrong. It is still early in your recovery effort, but ... I just doesn't sound right.

Well, she will get over it. They are always angry when exposed, or the affair is thwarted.

However, I'm concerned that your wife got physical. You do not need to tolerate that. Please speak to her calmly about it.

She makes no apologies for it.

I apologized later in the evening for getting vocal - but not for getting mad.

I waited and asked her if she meant everything she said to me. Only response was "some I did - some I didn't". When I asked which ones she didn't - she couldn't/wouldn't tell me.

I then later asked why it was that whenever she was mean and cruel and tongue lashing - she never apologized later.....even when she knows she hurt me and said awful stuff. No answer.

I do believe that contacting the OM via the letter may have been wrong in some ways - but my thinking was that this is one "connection" in the A "triangle" that hasn't been heard. She knows how he feels. He knows what she feels and/or has been said. She knows how I feel. He's heard nothing from me. To say something is a right I felt I had. To say nothing to me speaks volumes about me. I spoke my peace - I have nothing else to say to OM.

As for her feelings about it - I'm sure that she has portrayed me in a much different light to OM........heck - she portrays me as awful to ME!

I agree about the "friend" - but she thinks it's a controlling gesture on my part to talk about the damage this friendship has. It is damaging - and always has been.......but she see's it as a close friendship that has value. I to this date haven't seen it. There has been little that I've seen in it that has been positive - for her or for us. But again - I am not the most important person in my W's life right now.........so my thoughts on this are not that important to her. And if they are - she feels that my position on the friendship speaks about my trust and belief in her - not the friend. I can't win on this one - not anytime soon though.

As for the physical part - she thinks I'm being a baby by saying anything concerning it - even tho she readily admits that if I did it - it would be grounds for D in her eyes.

Going to a MC session today - not expecting it to go very well. Wish me luck.

Mike - how did your wife establish the NC originally?

I'm with Tom and lealas - NC looks like it has been violated, if was ever established at all.

AND - NC means NC from both of you. You're letting OM be a carbuncle on yer a$$. Focus on your marriage and forget about him - once NC is really established.

Which time? Not sure when last NC was - other than 11/10 via phone.

1st NC was supposedly D-Day via phone. Then later on 10/15 when I was out of time face-to-face. She doesn't buy into the NC "letter" that is advocated here.

As for me - if I screwed up - then I screwed up. I explained my motives to her - which for the most part fell on deaf ears. It was nothing but a LB to her.

As for allowing him to be a barnacle on my A** - not really........least that's not what I think about it. I just wanted one conversation - one time for my voice to be heard.

As for whether it was truly her friend or OM - no way for me to know without contacting her friend.......which she made me promise not to do. I keep my promises - even if they are not fair sometimes. What about this is anyway?

Translation: "I don't accept NC and I'll just fake it to get Mike off my butt."


Right from the script. The best WS defense is a vile offense.

Tell us about the MC you're involved in and what guidance the counselor has provided already.

WAT

Not much.

When we first went - I was taking all the blame for past transgressions. We then started on that. I was confused as to why the affair wasn't discussed. I finally said to MC (I speak in metaphors ALL the time)......."we as a couple are like a car wreck that you've stumbled on. The passengers have injuries - and you're treating a broken leg when the victims have slashed throats". Translation - the biggest hurdle for both of us at this moment is her fog/withdrawal and my shock over A.

We then got to communication skills stuff.......but no direct talk about the affair. Possibly this is my fault - because I've said that I'm not ready to hear about all of it......i.e., her feelings for OM, all details about A........that I wanted us to get stronger first and then finalize the details.

So right now - we after probably 8 sessions seem to be lacking direction - which I've read is not good.

I gotta go to MC.........I will update later.

This is freaking me out - I think I'm on another planet and the only friendly natives are the ones on this site.

All others are forbidden for me to talk to or cause LB's to wife.

I need to learn WW language.

Sorry - lame excuse for humor in the face of fear...

MC with an alien abductee is a waste of $$.

What kind of MC is this?

WAT

What Kind?

One that charges $100/hour.......

Not a Christian counselor - which I discussed with her along the way. The thought of that w/ her was like having a pastor beat her on the head w/ the Bible. I agreed to not pick one like that in the beginning - now I'm not so sure it was a good idea.

Now - it seems like a "do over" to go to another MC. But I'm thinking that's what we need to do. It's confusing - do you blame the MC or yourself? I try to avoid the later so I've stuck w/ it........but we do seem to be swimming in a never-ending circle.

That was the right choice, in my opinion. Unless a sectarian counselor is a REAL counselor, i.e., has education and training to wear two hats, they do way more harm than good based on the anecdotal evidence on this forum. Can't remember who it was, but someone actually went to his/her Catholic priest for MC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Duh! How much sense does that make?

Don't take legal advice from a counselor nor marriage advice from a lawyer. Don't go to church in a counselor's office nor get relationship advice from a preacher.

I think all here will agree that you're into counseling too soon to include your wife effectively. She's not ready. That doesn't mean that you should stop it - just that it's usually a waste of $$ until the WS is committed to rebuild. Stories abound here telling how "active" WSs use MC as a kangaroo court to build their case for why their decisions are justified.

One thing for sure that I give you 100% certainty on that NO ONE can refute: half of all counselors out there are below average. Make sure yours is focused on saving the mariage, not simply with "processing" a divorce.

A good way to spend a little more $$ is to make sure you're well versed on MB principles and then have an individual session with on of the MB counselors just to relate what your local MC is saying.

Mike,

IMO, the first thing you need to do it's to find out about the NC, whether it's in place or not. This is VERY IMPORTANT. You can not start recovery until NC has been established, and you are wasting your money in MC.

I don't think there is NC, so prove me wrong. Install a keylogger program in the computer, go through her phone records, bank records, place a voice recorder in her car, a GPS, look in her clothes, purse, hire a private detective, do whatever you need to. Give her some room, so she won't suspect anything. Go away for dinner, or for the weekend while the PI follows her.

I hope I am wrong, but there is something fishy in the way she is acting. Do not trust her.

Bob

H and I saw several Relate counsellors, and none were remotely pushing a divorce. I didn't mention MB, as I think there's no point trying to get a therapist to work a system they're unfamiliar with, and I did find the Relate people to understand the dynamics of a marriage. Our main counsellor was very effective in helping us to work out the 'story' of our marriage in a non-judgemental way, and in pushing H gently towards IC.

But the most useful thing for me was personal IC. I knew that I'd done the 'wonderful-wife' bit to Olympic standards, but I also knew that a healthier person would have detected the unhealthy state that the marriage must have drifted into, and would have done something about it. I had known for a long time that something wasn't right, but I was blind to most of the signs, and perhaps I was 'blind' because I simply had no idea what to do about it.

I was clueless about boundaries, or the respect I should have expected as a wife. What I learned in IC was that I had been trained since birth to support the entitlement and self-centredness of another, and that I had simply transferred that from my mother to H.

There are some BS's who recognise that they have treated their partner poorly, but I think the majority who come here have had the opposite problem - they have allowed their boundaries to be defined by their WS, and are shocked when that vunerability is exploited by a dishonest spouse. For BS's of our type, the 'work' is to define who we are, what we are entitled to, and how we require our spouses to respect those boundaries. If we hand power back to the WS, in the hope that they will be more honest this time, we will remain resentful, disempowered and bitter.

Of course, working out who we are - who we really are, as opposed to the sense of ourselves we have as defined by our relationships with others - is very, very difficult. And painful. If you look back at JavaPrincess's posts on the old board (I think she's always had the same registration number, although her title has changed a few times), you can see the story of a courageous voyage of self-exploration, and great insight, in a multiple-affair pile-up. Inspirational and recommended.

Ah...I realise that I'm threadjacking here, so will stop.

TA

I must trust her - she's my W.

As for NC - she says none - so I believe her.

I got my head handed to me in MC for delivering the letter.

I am very confused...........very confused.

No she's not. She's an imposter. She may look like her, but she's been taken over by the aliens. Trust me on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And you MUST not trust her.

You trusted her before her affair, right? Why trust her now?

Do not believe her claim of NC. If you do, why not believe everything else - including any claims that your marriage is "over."

Confused? Good. This means you're probably normal. Re-read Rule #1.

Trust needs to start somewhere - why not with me?

I've lied to her in the past - why should she trust me?

It has to start somewhere - my choosing to trust shouldn't be seen as a negative.

OK, Mike - the choice is yours, of course.

No, I see it as foolish to award trust before its been earned in a case like infidelity.

We've seen it all before over and over and over and over and your sitch regarding NC is very, very, very, very typical.

So, work on rebuilding her trust in you.

What kind of lies did you tell in the past?

WAT

In the past - I was using alcohol as a crutch for stress & anxiety. I lied about when I'd be home and whether I was at work or the bar. This went on (off & on - I did quit a couple of times) for 5 years. Her trust in me is not too good due to that period.

Although I was at fault - she withdrew apparently and felt that I could not be dealt with on this and other subjects - concerning my stressed out way of looking at things. These problems were mine - although I did not know the extent of how she felt, how it hurt her, etc.. She has a hard time with this.

I didn't cause the A - I know this and she does. But I did contribute to the demise of her feelings. I feel rotten about this. So lying is not a commodity she has a corner of the market on.........I've done it too.

I realize this is an infidelity "channel" and that all here (including me) is hurt by it. I am hurt. But she is hurt also - by me and by the A. The hurt here is not just due to the A.

It's the most recent hurt - not the only one. And she is not the only one that's causing hurt. Maybe now she is (as she says) processing - because I have been meeting her EN's now and she doesn't know how to process me or her feelings for me. She claims that the A is over/done, etc. But the aftershocks have not ended. The distance has not ended. The pain from it has not ended. My letter to the OM I guess was me crying out for understanding - because somehow I felt that the one that had stepped into our M and violated things should hear my voice. I realize that this is a "transferance" of sorts - when it's my W that who I am concerned with - I could care less about him. But I think that those that contribute to wrecking a car - and doing so carelessly - should realize the ramifications of what they did. But apparently - my W and MC think I stepped over the line HUGE. I'm trying to see it - but don't. I'm usually pretty good at residing in her shoes, or stepping outside the box to look at my actions.

Maybe the letter served no purpose. But I felt good doing it. The fact that I feel this way I'm being told I'm wrong.......and that I violated her trust.

The messages here I understand. The messages I hear in MC I usually understand. This topic has me very confused - because I don't understand the reactions to my actions and statments...........and I can't step out of this box to see what they're saying.

Confusion reins supreme today.

No, you didn't step over the line "huge." Any "violation" of her trust in this regard pales in comparison to her violation of your trust. Put this all in perspective, OK?

Everything else you describe sounds honest and your assessment of your contribution to the poor state of the marriage is healthy.

But none of this means you ought to trust her claims of NC.

I suggest you keep your eyes and ears open for further indications of contact and do NOT act without bouncing your thoughts off this forum or your counselor. We're free. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Plan A your butt off and become a model citizen. Take this time to ID all the bad juju your brought to the marriage and correct it.

Do you have a handle on your drinking? There are many folks here with direct experience on that topic - I don't.

WAT

No drinking for 4 months. Doesn't phase me.

Except for the first time I have a valid reason to drink.........and can't.

Yes a handle on my drinking.....no issues - I see it in the light.

My W doesn't think that I have a handle on my anger tho since yesterday.

By the way - I do not think that my W has contact now w/ OM. Am I being naive? I don't think so.

For if she is - I think she would tell me now. The lies and deception - I do think she sees that in the light. I hope I'm right - because I trust her to do so.

So the point w/ MC & her is that I did this (i.e., sent the letter) when I felt there was NC. They almost would understand if it was a couple of months ago.......they don't now. This is where part of the s**t lies.

We don't know if you're being naive or not, but if you are, that would be normal.

What we do know is what you described above about your wife's reaction to your letter to OM and three of us independently reached the same conclusion based on our knowledge of affair behavior.

Could we be wrong? Sure. It all could be just in the way you described it.

What are the claimed credentials/knowledge of this counselor? What is he asking your wife to do to regain YOUR trust?

WAT

Transparancy & Honesty.

But W doesn't like transparency very much. It's a reluctant one for her.

Credentials - no idea.

As for MC - she seems to think that I am more of an issue with our M vs. her. Not to say that she discounts my W's A - just that more talk is about me and my past actions. I think that too often in MC/IC - everyone wants to go to the source........and that is timelined. Go to the beginning and find out where it started.

The start seems to be agreed on by everyone was me.......

Plus - A lasted 5 weeks............my drinking was 5 years. That's perceived to be lopsided in my disfavor.

Plus - I think that MC detects a lot of resentment, anger, and lack of "taking down walls" more w/ her vs. me........therefore her reasons for these are discussed more. I.E., right now - her feelings and hesitancy is more of an impediment - therefore the cause (back to me!!) is discussed.

Hopefully this makes sense. An expert on therapy I'm not - especially when I'm one of the ones under the scope.

As WAT said...this isn't actually true.

Trust is EARNED...not given. And when it's broken, it's EARNED BACK...not just blindly given back.

Do you hand a stranger you meet on the street your credit cards? Nope...they've done nothing to earn that trust. Did you give them to your wife on the first day you met and dated her? Again, no...she hadn't yet earned your trust. But, as time went on, and she demonstrated that she was trustworthy, you slowly granted her more and more trust.

She broke that trust with her affair. And I agree...you have broken her trust of you with some of YOUR actions.

So...the fix here is NOT to just blindly trust each other again. The fix is to find ways to demonstrate that trustworthiness to each other. For example...how can you begin rebuilding your wife's trust in you? What can you do to show her that your changes are lasting? How can she verify that you're sticking to your word now? And...the same should be asked back to her as well...and you can help tell her what she can do to rebuild your trust. Part of that may be in helping you to SEE that NC is in place somehow...that's the real purpose of the NC letter to begin with.

Think about this...it's not being disrespectful in telling someone who has destroyed your trust in them that you need them to help build that trust back.

Say it to yourself over and over Mike....

WS always gets upset when "You don't trust me"....you need to recall that they have earned that rap....you not trusting her is NOT a punishment it is protecting yourself. There is a difference.

Based on what I am reading here I concur with others regarding NC, she most likely heard fo this letter from OM...

We both work out of our house. I travel - and we stay in contact either via phone or txt messages. She's been pretty good at keeping in touch and trying to stay in touch with very little "unknown time".

In the past - it didn't take much time to go to a pay phone and call - but again, I trust her statements that she would not do that again - now or ever. She indicated that she would leave the M before doing that again.

As for my verification - I don't know - blood tests? I mean she smells it a mile away when I've had a beer.......so she knows I'm not drinking nor have intentions on that. When I'm out of town overnight (not often), I call so she can tell I'm not slurring.

I realize that verification of trust is needed to a degree - but at some point you have to "let go & trust". If that gets violated again - by me or her - then other safeguards must be put in place.

But barring GPS and the whatnot - which I find highly over the top for my situation (not all - just mine) - I cannot keep tabs 24/7 and nor should I have to. Transparancy is being attempted - is it perfect? No. But right now it's good enough for me. This is not a question of should I or shouldn't I trust.............this is a question of effort & sincerity in rebuilding all things - trust is only one.

Hard to tell from a distance.

I suggest you demonstrate your sincerity. No drinking. Start going to Al Anon meetings. Whether you think you need to or not, go. You're going the extra mile, OK? You're gonna remove that issue from the table. In the meantime, be a model citizen.

Next issue?

See where I'm going with this?

Remove the excuses and allow the counselor - not you - to focus more on your wife's impediments to progress. If the counselor is worth a chit, she'll see your actions and want to see something more from your wife.

WAT

That sounds like STBX Mrs. Joad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

She doesn't want to tell you for two reasons. 1. She isn't sure herself, because her reality changes with her feelings. 2. She uses it to control you and make you wonder what the truth is, how can you make good choices if she gives you honest information. So she obfuscates everything.

She never apologized because she isn't sorry. She thinks you deserve that treatment and she is going to teach you a lesson to behave.

Classic Mrs. Joad behavior.


Since your Wife is the wayward one, the councilor may be trying to build more of a rapport with her. The councilor my feel she may bolt from counciling if any demands or changes are made of her right now. My own STBX bolted counciling twice. once after 3 visits and the councilor told her she must give up OM. And once after 4 meetings when councilor made plan on how WW would meet needs and stop LBing.

Good Luck Mike.

I've gone to AA meetings. Gone & talked and the issue w/ AA is that the talk is to center around talk about booze and how it destroyed you, ruled you, etc.

I don't mind talking about that - but I get it. What I want to talk about is my M. I love my wife. I love her dearly. She is mad at me and I'm mad at her. I'm mad due to A........she's mad due to booze.

I'm looking past the A to talk about me, her, us. But she wants to process.

I've attempted many times to get her to go to Al-Anon - since it is for people effected by drinking - not drinkers per say........but she doesn't want to. She doesn't prescribe to the fact that AA and Al-Anon seemingly takes responsibility away from the drinker by calling it a disease. I understand this difficulty w/ her and others. But I think it shouldn't be an impediment to go. But she doesn't want to go there - even if I go with her to get the ball rolling. I want her to understand that aspect of what I did and why. I want to understand more too - although it really feels like a "afterthought" - because BELIEVE ME - if I haven't drank in the last 3 months - I ain't going to do it again. I've had PLENTY of cause.

And as for "removing the issue" - response to that from W is that it is not an overnight process for her. 5 years isn't negated by 4 months of sobriety........there's pain and resentment to get over.

Hence - where she says she's at. Prior to A - she felt it couldn't be dealt with. A was a mistake that resulted from the place she emotionally was at. It was a wrong direction from a low place.....she acknowledges this.

That may be an honest statement. Nevertheless, she doesn't know how long it'll take either and she is likely exaggerating how much this issue "hurts" her to justify her actions.

So be it.

The best course for you may be to be patient and keep doing what you're doing. As long as she's still willing to go to counseling, that's good. Tom may be spot on with his conjecture of what the counselor is doing vis a vis gaining her trust.

Baby steps.

And keep your eyes and ears open. Describe clues here before you act. We're free. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

No, you must not trust her. She is untrustworthy. You would be insane to trust an untrustworthy person.


Mike, talk is cheap with an adulterer. It is a huge mistake to trust what she says when you KNOW she is untrustworthy. The only way to know if this is true is to independently verify her words based on her ACTIONS. It would be pure folly to trust an untrustworthy person. She has to EARN your trust, it is not an entitlement.

I think perhaps she probably is in NC, but I also suspect she is only doing it long enough to get you off her back. She probably still has hopes of resumption, which is evidenced by her refusal to send a nc letter and her complete lack of remorse. She is not withdrawing from him for some reason and the only reason I can fathom is perhaps hope for the future. Have you been monitoring her phone calls? Computer?

Is the OM married? If so, has his W been informed?

Rather than "defensive," the folks here are experienced at reading the signs. And we are rarely wrong about them, I am sorry to say. After you are around here for awhile, it becomes extremely obvious.

I would also strongly agree with WAT about getting a qualified MC. Your MC is not trained in adultery and is doing your marriage more harm than good. I suspect she is not pro-marriage and likely has a chip on her shoulder against men. Steve Harley would be worth every penny and is an experienced pro who understands adultery and knows how to put a marriage back together. And he is supportive of men...and women.

OM has no computer.

OM is divorced. Surprisingly - OM's marriage supposedly ended due to W's A.

She is being transparent - the only thing I don't know is if she either regularly or sometimes goes to a pay phone to call. She did in the past - now says no.

I chose to believe at this time.

As for new MC - I am considering this - and starting it before ending currect MC. Getting expen$ive - but worth it in my opinion.

Did you verify this yourself by speaking to the OMW? OP's OFTEN lie about their marital status to keep the WS on the line. The OMW could be a great source of info for you if they are back together. She might also be able to give you some info about the affair.

There is just something wrong here, Mike, and if she is not in contact then I strongly suspect that she has hope of a resumption. If that is the case, exposure to the OMW will put an end to that pretty quickly if they are back together. [or perhaps never split at all. you only have the word of a liar]

I had a talk w/ my W.

I sincerely believe there is NC. She explained to me that the process she's going through is one of "killing off" the OM.....while "resurrecting" us. She felt that we were dead prior to A. She felt that she could not have feelings for me prior to A again.

I believe her. The "felt we were dead" as a loving couple is something she felt long before the A. She has to process not only the death of one but the rebirth of another. Time will tell.

For now - I give her space & love as I can.

As for OM - he's divorced. I also asked for and got full details of A - which included day visits to his home. So no OMW.