In the past - I was using alcohol as a crutch for stress & anxiety. I lied about when I'd be home and whether I was at work or the bar. This went on (off & on - I did quit a couple of times) for 5 years. Her trust in me is not too good due to that period.

Although I was at fault - she withdrew apparently and felt that I could not be dealt with on this and other subjects - concerning my stressed out way of looking at things. These problems were mine - although I did not know the extent of how she felt, how it hurt her, etc.. She has a hard time with this.

I didn't cause the A - I know this and she does. But I did contribute to the demise of her feelings. I feel rotten about this. So lying is not a commodity she has a corner of the market on.........I've done it too.

I realize this is an infidelity "channel" and that all here (including me) is hurt by it. I am hurt. But she is hurt also - by me and by the A. The hurt here is not just due to the A.

It's the most recent hurt - not the only one. And she is not the only one that's causing hurt. Maybe now she is (as she says) processing - because I have been meeting her EN's now and she doesn't know how to process me or her feelings for me. She claims that the A is over/done, etc. But the aftershocks have not ended. The distance has not ended. The pain from it has not ended. My letter to the OM I guess was me crying out for understanding - because somehow I felt that the one that had stepped into our M and violated things should hear my voice. I realize that this is a "transferance" of sorts - when it's my W that who I am concerned with - I could care less about him. But I think that those that contribute to wrecking a car - and doing so carelessly - should realize the ramifications of what they did. But apparently - my W and MC think I stepped over the line HUGE. I'm trying to see it - but don't. I'm usually pretty good at residing in her shoes, or stepping outside the box to look at my actions.

Maybe the letter served no purpose. But I felt good doing it. The fact that I feel this way I'm being told I'm wrong.......and that I violated her trust.

The messages here I understand. The messages I hear in MC I usually understand. This topic has me very confused - because I don't understand the reactions to my actions and statments...........and I can't step out of this box to see what they're saying.

Confusion reins supreme today.

No, you didn't step over the line "huge." Any "violation" of her trust in this regard pales in comparison to her violation of your trust. Put this all in perspective, OK?

Everything else you describe sounds honest and your assessment of your contribution to the poor state of the marriage is healthy.

But none of this means you ought to trust her claims of NC.

I suggest you keep your eyes and ears open for further indications of contact and do NOT act without bouncing your thoughts off this forum or your counselor. We're free. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Plan A your butt off and become a model citizen. Take this time to ID all the bad juju your brought to the marriage and correct it.

Do you have a handle on your drinking? There are many folks here with direct experience on that topic - I don't.

WAT

No drinking for 4 months. Doesn't phase me.

Except for the first time I have a valid reason to drink.........and can't.

Yes a handle on my drinking.....no issues - I see it in the light.

My W doesn't think that I have a handle on my anger tho since yesterday.

By the way - I do not think that my W has contact now w/ OM. Am I being naive? I don't think so.

For if she is - I think she would tell me now. The lies and deception - I do think she sees that in the light. I hope I'm right - because I trust her to do so.

So the point w/ MC & her is that I did this (i.e., sent the letter) when I felt there was NC. They almost would understand if it was a couple of months ago.......they don't now. This is where part of the s**t lies.

We don't know if you're being naive or not, but if you are, that would be normal.

What we do know is what you described above about your wife's reaction to your letter to OM and three of us independently reached the same conclusion based on our knowledge of affair behavior.

Could we be wrong? Sure. It all could be just in the way you described it.

What are the claimed credentials/knowledge of this counselor? What is he asking your wife to do to regain YOUR trust?

WAT

Transparancy & Honesty.

But W doesn't like transparency very much. It's a reluctant one for her.

Credentials - no idea.

As for MC - she seems to think that I am more of an issue with our M vs. her. Not to say that she discounts my W's A - just that more talk is about me and my past actions. I think that too often in MC/IC - everyone wants to go to the source........and that is timelined. Go to the beginning and find out where it started.

The start seems to be agreed on by everyone was me.......

Plus - A lasted 5 weeks............my drinking was 5 years. That's perceived to be lopsided in my disfavor.

Plus - I think that MC detects a lot of resentment, anger, and lack of "taking down walls" more w/ her vs. me........therefore her reasons for these are discussed more. I.E., right now - her feelings and hesitancy is more of an impediment - therefore the cause (back to me!!) is discussed.

Hopefully this makes sense. An expert on therapy I'm not - especially when I'm one of the ones under the scope.

As WAT said...this isn't actually true.

Trust is EARNED...not given. And when it's broken, it's EARNED BACK...not just blindly given back.

Do you hand a stranger you meet on the street your credit cards? Nope...they've done nothing to earn that trust. Did you give them to your wife on the first day you met and dated her? Again, no...she hadn't yet earned your trust. But, as time went on, and she demonstrated that she was trustworthy, you slowly granted her more and more trust.

She broke that trust with her affair. And I agree...you have broken her trust of you with some of YOUR actions.

So...the fix here is NOT to just blindly trust each other again. The fix is to find ways to demonstrate that trustworthiness to each other. For example...how can you begin rebuilding your wife's trust in you? What can you do to show her that your changes are lasting? How can she verify that you're sticking to your word now? And...the same should be asked back to her as well...and you can help tell her what she can do to rebuild your trust. Part of that may be in helping you to SEE that NC is in place somehow...that's the real purpose of the NC letter to begin with.

Think about this...it's not being disrespectful in telling someone who has destroyed your trust in them that you need them to help build that trust back.

Say it to yourself over and over Mike....

WS always gets upset when "You don't trust me"....you need to recall that they have earned that rap....you not trusting her is NOT a punishment it is protecting yourself. There is a difference.

Based on what I am reading here I concur with others regarding NC, she most likely heard fo this letter from OM...

We both work out of our house. I travel - and we stay in contact either via phone or txt messages. She's been pretty good at keeping in touch and trying to stay in touch with very little "unknown time".

In the past - it didn't take much time to go to a pay phone and call - but again, I trust her statements that she would not do that again - now or ever. She indicated that she would leave the M before doing that again.

As for my verification - I don't know - blood tests? I mean she smells it a mile away when I've had a beer.......so she knows I'm not drinking nor have intentions on that. When I'm out of town overnight (not often), I call so she can tell I'm not slurring.

I realize that verification of trust is needed to a degree - but at some point you have to "let go & trust". If that gets violated again - by me or her - then other safeguards must be put in place.

But barring GPS and the whatnot - which I find highly over the top for my situation (not all - just mine) - I cannot keep tabs 24/7 and nor should I have to. Transparancy is being attempted - is it perfect? No. But right now it's good enough for me. This is not a question of should I or shouldn't I trust.............this is a question of effort & sincerity in rebuilding all things - trust is only one.

Hard to tell from a distance.

I suggest you demonstrate your sincerity. No drinking. Start going to Al Anon meetings. Whether you think you need to or not, go. You're going the extra mile, OK? You're gonna remove that issue from the table. In the meantime, be a model citizen.

Next issue?

See where I'm going with this?

Remove the excuses and allow the counselor - not you - to focus more on your wife's impediments to progress. If the counselor is worth a chit, she'll see your actions and want to see something more from your wife.

WAT

That sounds like STBX Mrs. Joad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

She doesn't want to tell you for two reasons. 1. She isn't sure herself, because her reality changes with her feelings. 2. She uses it to control you and make you wonder what the truth is, how can you make good choices if she gives you honest information. So she obfuscates everything.

She never apologized because she isn't sorry. She thinks you deserve that treatment and she is going to teach you a lesson to behave.

Classic Mrs. Joad behavior.


Since your Wife is the wayward one, the councilor may be trying to build more of a rapport with her. The councilor my feel she may bolt from counciling if any demands or changes are made of her right now. My own STBX bolted counciling twice. once after 3 visits and the councilor told her she must give up OM. And once after 4 meetings when councilor made plan on how WW would meet needs and stop LBing.

Good Luck Mike.

I've gone to AA meetings. Gone & talked and the issue w/ AA is that the talk is to center around talk about booze and how it destroyed you, ruled you, etc.

I don't mind talking about that - but I get it. What I want to talk about is my M. I love my wife. I love her dearly. She is mad at me and I'm mad at her. I'm mad due to A........she's mad due to booze.

I'm looking past the A to talk about me, her, us. But she wants to process.

I've attempted many times to get her to go to Al-Anon - since it is for people effected by drinking - not drinkers per say........but she doesn't want to. She doesn't prescribe to the fact that AA and Al-Anon seemingly takes responsibility away from the drinker by calling it a disease. I understand this difficulty w/ her and others. But I think it shouldn't be an impediment to go. But she doesn't want to go there - even if I go with her to get the ball rolling. I want her to understand that aspect of what I did and why. I want to understand more too - although it really feels like a "afterthought" - because BELIEVE ME - if I haven't drank in the last 3 months - I ain't going to do it again. I've had PLENTY of cause.

And as for "removing the issue" - response to that from W is that it is not an overnight process for her. 5 years isn't negated by 4 months of sobriety........there's pain and resentment to get over.

Hence - where she says she's at. Prior to A - she felt it couldn't be dealt with. A was a mistake that resulted from the place she emotionally was at. It was a wrong direction from a low place.....she acknowledges this.

That may be an honest statement. Nevertheless, she doesn't know how long it'll take either and she is likely exaggerating how much this issue "hurts" her to justify her actions.

So be it.

The best course for you may be to be patient and keep doing what you're doing. As long as she's still willing to go to counseling, that's good. Tom may be spot on with his conjecture of what the counselor is doing vis a vis gaining her trust.

Baby steps.

And keep your eyes and ears open. Describe clues here before you act. We're free. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

No, you must not trust her. She is untrustworthy. You would be insane to trust an untrustworthy person.


Mike, talk is cheap with an adulterer. It is a huge mistake to trust what she says when you KNOW she is untrustworthy. The only way to know if this is true is to independently verify her words based on her ACTIONS. It would be pure folly to trust an untrustworthy person. She has to EARN your trust, it is not an entitlement.

I think perhaps she probably is in NC, but I also suspect she is only doing it long enough to get you off her back. She probably still has hopes of resumption, which is evidenced by her refusal to send a nc letter and her complete lack of remorse. She is not withdrawing from him for some reason and the only reason I can fathom is perhaps hope for the future. Have you been monitoring her phone calls? Computer?

Is the OM married? If so, has his W been informed?

Rather than "defensive," the folks here are experienced at reading the signs. And we are rarely wrong about them, I am sorry to say. After you are around here for awhile, it becomes extremely obvious.

I would also strongly agree with WAT about getting a qualified MC. Your MC is not trained in adultery and is doing your marriage more harm than good. I suspect she is not pro-marriage and likely has a chip on her shoulder against men. Steve Harley would be worth every penny and is an experienced pro who understands adultery and knows how to put a marriage back together. And he is supportive of men...and women.

OM has no computer.

OM is divorced. Surprisingly - OM's marriage supposedly ended due to W's A.

She is being transparent - the only thing I don't know is if she either regularly or sometimes goes to a pay phone to call. She did in the past - now says no.

I chose to believe at this time.

As for new MC - I am considering this - and starting it before ending currect MC. Getting expen$ive - but worth it in my opinion.

Did you verify this yourself by speaking to the OMW? OP's OFTEN lie about their marital status to keep the WS on the line. The OMW could be a great source of info for you if they are back together. She might also be able to give you some info about the affair.

There is just something wrong here, Mike, and if she is not in contact then I strongly suspect that she has hope of a resumption. If that is the case, exposure to the OMW will put an end to that pretty quickly if they are back together. [or perhaps never split at all. you only have the word of a liar]

I had a talk w/ my W.

I sincerely believe there is NC. She explained to me that the process she's going through is one of "killing off" the OM.....while "resurrecting" us. She felt that we were dead prior to A. She felt that she could not have feelings for me prior to A again.

I believe her. The "felt we were dead" as a loving couple is something she felt long before the A. She has to process not only the death of one but the rebirth of another. Time will tell.

For now - I give her space & love as I can.

As for OM - he's divorced. I also asked for and got full details of A - which included day visits to his home. So no OMW.