I found MB a few weeks ago and I have read everything in the site from beginning to end. I get it. I concur. I'm putting it in practise.

First of all, I want to explain me and my SO's (Significant Other) situation.

He is currently still married, although they (W initiated) started divorce proceedings 2 yrs ago. She is a WW and has been for many years of the marriage. She does not fulfil many of his ENs (none that I know of to be honest) and her standard response to changing this was that "she's just not like that". She has been physically abusive. SF was almost non existent (once a year if that).

He says the M ended over 5 years ago. He has been going through the stages of withdrawal over that time, anger, hurt, regret etc. He has accepted that the marriage is over. He is not bitter. Without me, it would still be over.

The reason they are not yet divorced is business-related. They own a business together and as a couple they are the face customers associate with it.

They have a contract that will be seen through by the end of this year and they will DEFINITELY be divorced by next year (he says).



A little about me

I am 24, smart, and attractive. I am not naive. I have been in several unhealthy relationships, all of which taught me a lot about myself. I have beautiful, blessed friendships with a few female friends that has become my standard for testing the health of a romantic relationship.

I would like to get married at around 26.

I am degree educated, support myself, live in my own newly refurbished flat and have my feet firmly on a path to my desired career. I have lived a very exciting life and I am very much looking forward to the stage coming ahead - which is building a family.


Why him and no one else for now

I have decided that my SO is worth taking a chance for, and worth my effort. I base this on the fact that he is actually a wonderful man who shares similar values to me.

- He is very loving and openly affectionate
- He has a social conscience and participates in community revival at home and abroad
- He is a self made man, which I greatly admire.
- He is respectful and honest.
- He is good with children and is very close with his family (M, F, D from childhood relationship)
- He is the marrying kind. He did strive to make his marriage work. He was gutted that it didn't (I would be gone if he was abusive about his W)
- He loves me.

He is worth fighting for and I am fighting for him.


The fly in the ointment

My SO is reluctant (inspite of adivse from family and friends) to get a divorce ASAP, because of the financial repercussions. I have not had a problem with this until now.

Now, we've been together for 7 months and we are solidly in love. ENs are being met for the most part. Few LBs, I mainly LB over the ongoing M.

We have tried to break up several times as a result of the poor timing, but never succeeded.

We just came together again after a 10 day break because things were getting stressful (combination of his very busy work schedule and M) and the time apart gave me time to think. And I am positive, that we will not have a chance if he plans on hiding our relationship for a year and/or more.



My plan and why I am on MB

To improve the meeting of both our ENs. Share the MB way because I know he is scared to embark on a 2nd marriage when his 1st failed so painfully. And to TOTALLY eliminate LBs, particularly where the M is concerned.

And to begin to encourage him to expose our relationship to more people and CHOOSE US 100%.

As I said, I would like to be married at 26. And if it's not going to be to him, then I have to get on with finding and nurturing the right man and relationship. I do hope it is him.

I have given our relationship till December to get on the right track. I will be on Plan A till September and then Plan B.

I will keep track of our progress and seek inspiration here.

Thanks for reading.

I sent him this email yesterday. The evening after we met up from our break.


Not trying to overwhelm you.

I just have to be honest about where I am at before I get carried away with our relationship.

Do me a favour please? Read this summary http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html and let me know what you think.

I think at this point of our relationship we should have a clear idea about our goal as a couple. If we really are one that is. I know plenty about dead end relationships. I've been in many, and I've learnt how they work.

Honey, I don't want us in a lose-lose or win-lose situation. I don't want either of us to have to lose. If we continue how we are (neither here nor there, no guarantees, no promises) for a year or two years, you might be HURT if we don't work out, but you'd either have W or your Bachelor life waiting. I would have lost 2 years of my life for what turned out to be nothing.

I'm 24. I'll be finishing my BA at 25. I would like to be married and beginning a family at 26.

I know this is FULL ON for you, I'm sorry. But our situation forces me to be clear about my life plans, because I do see you as someone I could spend the rest of my life with and I need to know that we're heading in the same direction so I don't FOOL myself.

Honey, if you feel I'm someone you'd seriously consider spending the rest of your life with (brace yourself for some heavy phrases) as your possible second wife, as the mother of your children, as your best friend and as your life companion, then you'd want to prepare our lives for that from now.

You would want to see that we learn how to make decisions together that are in both our interests.

That we understand each others needs and start learning how to meet them (so it becomes second nature for us).

That we really start to build a life TOGETHER that we both love and that makes us both HAPPY.

SO, if we've found each other, and we believe what we've found is a blessing and the stuff that everyone prays for, why would we treat it the way that we are now? We are stifling it, hiding it, shaming it, spoiling it. We do this for long enough neither you nor I will want it, it will become so dirty and unappealing.

And what for?

For economical reasons.

Because at the end of the day there is money to be made.

My dear don't get me wrong, I like money just as much as you if not more. And I get that you're 38 and you want financial reward for your hard working life till now.

I want financial reward for you too. Whether or not we're together, it still makes me look good to have successful people around me!

I just believe that it will cost the relationship we could have had if this is prioritised over US.



QUESTION

Please try to answer this baby: Aside from the financial consideration -

------ You getting divorced now will make you look bad, especially when you reveal my existence. Right? What plans do you have in mind to create a different outcome next year?
------ How long after your divorce do you think YOU will need to heal, before embarking on another (brace yourself for heavy word again) marriage? How long do you think your family and friends will need? Because it DOES matter, how long do you think W will need before seeing you walk down the aisle with someone else and begin a new life with someone else?
------ How long are you willing to ask ME to wait for you to complete your personal goals? And if we are together for 1-2 years living independent lives, achieving independent goals, how easy do you think it will be for us to drop the lives we'd have built, to build one together?

SO, I think these are very important questions.

This isn't about you being afraid of our relationship trapping you, limiting you, holding you back. We've both been hurt and limited by relationships before, we're veterans, so we know what we don't want, and what we do.

I believe we could be our greatest enhancements, elevators, motivators! What we can accomplish together SO, I do NOT believe we will accomplish in the same time separately.

If you were not still married, I bet we'd be living that truth already.



CONCLUSION

Baby, I don't want you to bury your head in the sand and ignore the challenges we have. I don't believe that as hard as things are for us now, we're making them easier by just AVOIDING the issue.

SO 95% of relationships that start out like ours DON'T MAKE IT. The odds are already against us. I imagine that those that made it were not just lucky but determined to make it work.

I need you to stand in the front line to fight to preserve us!

I need you, to truly choose us, which means putting the meeting of both our needs first.

Dr Harley (marriage coach and author of MarriageBuilders.com) suggests four pillars of a successful marriage:

1) Faithfulness - An exclusive, monogamous relationship
2) Extraordinary care - Meeting every single one of each other's primary emotional needs in a timely and professional way
3) Permanent for life - The marriage is seen as.
4) Husband and wife come together for the prosperity of children

It sounded about right to me.

SO, I know that you needed time to be sure about who I am and what you can build with me. As pessimistic by nature as you may be, I'm confident that now, you do know me and what I'm about.

I want us to build together.

I don't want us slowing each other down. After 7 months and quite a few breaks we should both have a good idea of where we feel the relationship is heading, and where we want it to go.

SO if you don't see a clear future for us, that you want to work towards, then you should let me know so I can heal and move on. I hate saying that!

I swear down if you weren't married I wouldn't be saying it (unless you really kept me in the back seat without a hope for change!).

I'm in the back seat to so many considerations in your life, most of which I can work with. We can learn to build a happy life with your (and eventually my) career thriving. We can learn to build a happy life with DD fully a part of it. We can learn to build a happy life inspite of your friends and family (and customers) who will no doubt be upset that you and W broke up. We can learn to build a happy life in spite of our individual hurts and wounds from unhealthy relationships. We can learn to build a happy life in any part of the world we decide to live in!

All this we can do, I trust you and I trust me in that.

But we cannot build a happy life on lies and deceit. We can't grow like that.

Please read this carefully and think about it. Right now SO, are you acting for the long term, or for the short term? Are the choices you're making laying down healthy foundations for the next 5, 10, 15 years in ALL aspects of your life personal, emotional, spiritual, financial?? Are they fulfilling short term goals in a few aspects of your life?

Baby, from the bottom of my heart, I am saying this for you as well as for me. I want you. I believe I would have a beautiful, loving, cherished life with you. But I also believe I could bring you unshakable joy, lasting love and prosperity (I have shrewd business acumen don't mistake it! Then children ... let your labour positively affect lives long after you're gone.)

I'll stop. Because I've said so much here already, and there's enough for you to think about, I think.

You know I'll be fine if you decide I'm not what you want. I was not born to lose.



In my heart always,
Your SO xxxx

How do you know she fulfilled none of his ENs? How do you know that she has been physically abusive? How do you know that SF was almost non existent? How do you know the M ended over 5 years ago? Were you THERE? Were you in hiding in the closets, in the crawlspace? I mean... how do you KNOW?

Or is this what he's TOLD you? Because let me tell you hon, if it is, it's right out of the handbook. Your SO sounds like my WH: a wonderful, persuasive talker who knows how to maintain a great image (including suffering the requisite amount of "grief" for the - boo hoo - inevitable, sad end of the marriage). But let's look at actions, hmmm? What did he DO to save this marriage? (And again: you must look at how you KNOW what he did.) And what is he doing NOW? Is he having an affair, or isn't he? And if a man had a gram of integrity, wouldn't he do the honorable thing in ending the marriage in order to pursue another R? And what kind of a man is it that PUTS HIS BUSINESS AND HIS CUSTOMERS ahead of doing the right thing?

You most certainly share the same values. And the biggest value you seem to share is a disproportionate one about how great he is. A man of no substance. All sizzle, no steak. Great appearances, until you look closely. Just like every other cheating spouse. You want to fight for him? Go ahead. I predict that not too long down the track you'll look back on the "fight" as the most futile endeavor of your life.

Sorry, but you are in the wrong place for help in working on your affair. Your affair won't last and this married man will dump you like a hot potato as soon as the ***** gets old. You are being used as a **' by a man who is not at all interested in marriage material but in a piece of side ***.


You forgot some important "values" of his:

1. DISHONESTY
2. DECEITFUL
3. UNFAITHFUL

The opposite of these "values" are what make the foundation of marriage. Without them, you have nothing. Which is why your affair will fail. It is doomed to failure because it is based on deceit and fraud. You won't get him.

But that is neither here nor there. He won't marry you because he has no intention of leaving his wife. He knows you are not marriage material because you sleep with married men and are easy; a deal breaker for most men.

All I can say is that I hope you are getting paid for putting out. At least a prostitute gets paid for her services. Don't put out for free! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Before I read the entirety of your posts, one question:

How do you know of your married man's state of marriage?

And I'll have a followup question.

Nevermind, don't bother answering my question.

Young lady, I have tee shirts older than you.

You listen to me.

You may be intelligent, but you are neither smart nor mature.

Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit and wash your hands of this cess pool.

Absorb all the MB principles - most notably honesty and integrity - and start over with another man.

Drop your time table. Can't you see that putting a time table on expected love and starting a family is giving priority to the wrong things?

I will not assist you further in going down your current destructive path.

WAT

Don't think I didn't expect to get 'fired' by some, actually, a lot of people on here.

I will stay posting for a while, to see if I get any constructive feedback.

I will abandon the thread if I feel it is pouring salt in too many wounds.

First of all, let me apologise to BS's on MB. My parents are divorced. My mom was a BW. My dad is now remarried (over 10 years) and my mom is recovered (mostly). I lived the pain of their unhappy marriage. A can be killer and I am not exaggerating when I say it almost drove my mom insane.

Now, I won't accept insults MelodyLane. But I understand your anger.

The BIG questions so far, "HOW DO I KNOW ...".

How does anyone know anything?

We DON'T. We believe, we hope, we pray and we take a chance.

It could turn out that he lied to me (I doubt it, but it very well could be). It changes NOTHING.

I don't make a habit of dating married men. And like I said, I want to start a family, so he would be the first and last man with this kind of baggage that I entangle myself with.

Questions please, or constructive comments only.

Reread Tempest's Everyone's Opinion Counts post calling for respect to all MB forum users

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2940129

I'm not going to bash you....because I think you might really believe in the legitimacy of your relationship with MM. But honestly, I don't understand how you can read extensively here at MB and STILL not see the forest through the trees.

This guy had FIVE YEARS to extricate himself from his marriage if that's really what he wanted to do. The fact that he hasn't...ought to be telling you something right about now.

OWs "buy into" the story that the MM tells them. As mentioned to you by several earlier posters, you don't have the true facts here. You're seeing second-hand through not only a WH's perspective, but through your own rose-colored glasses as well.

If you could see your situation without the emotional connection, you'd see what we see. And you'd do as WAT suggested...'run, don't walk, for the nearest exit'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AllsFair, of course you won't find the truth constructive, because it interferes with your fantasy. But you will hear it on this forum ANYWAY. You may not like that, but folks here will not tell you what you want to hear.

I pointed out the truth that everyone here, except you apparently, can see. You are being USED. As a PIECE OF ***. You are being used by a deceitful, manipulative man for your free goods. I am sorry you don't LIKE that truth, but it is the truth, dear.

You know, in some countries, women don't even have the RIGHT to choose her husband. Why would you squander that freedom on a lying, cheating scumbag who does not think that adultery is WRONG? Don't you know that what he does to his W, he will do to you? Isn't that a little foolish to try and marry an unfaithful, deceitful man? As my momma would say: DUH!

Honey, please put on your thinking cap and apply some thinking skills for once. Don't squander your freedom by being a fool. There are lots of decent guys out there who are marriage material.

So I will ask again if you are being paid for your services? At least a prostitute gets paid. Are you getting compensated in some way for putting out?

I really hope you are not putting out for free.

PS I am WELL over the age thing.

Seriously, patronising me based on my age - no good WAT. And what do your tee shirts have to so with anything, really?

I have absorbed MB's principles and I do understand honesty and integrity. That's why I want this to be opened up.

At the end of the day, either we work out, or we take what we've given each other, count our blessings and move on.

Oh and by the way, I keep a VERY close check on what he says about the M, because I am no home wrecker. If I even caught a wiff of connection from her to him or him to her I would be out of there like a shot.

Oh and WAT, I give myself a timeline on most things I do, not because it's unmoveable, but as a way of assessing my progress.

There is nothing 'clean' about commiting adultery. it isn't a fight you can 'win.'

Did you expose this affair to his wife? Did you have a nice sit-down chat with her and check his story? And if not, why not?

Have you talked with his family members and friends? Do they know about you? Or is MM still keeping you as his deep, dark secret?

THAT's how you know the relationship isn't legitimate. Because it's hidden from the view of all his important people. And if he keeps this information quiet on the grounds that it'll make trouble in his life. Then he's going behind everyone's back in a deceitful way.

Why would you want a man who doesn't have much of a qualm about deceiving the important people in his life?

I gave you the best constructive feedback possible. There will be none better.

You mean you don't really know? You're "believing" and hoping?

I'll say you're taking a chance.

Sure, disregard this advice because it's not what you want to hear.

Take it or leave it.

Assuming you leave it, I promise that in 10 years, if not sooner, you'll think back on this very moment and wish you had followed this advice.

Think of me as the Father you need right now. This Fatherly advice will not fail you.

WAT

You may know those values, but you do not practice them in your own life. And more importantly, they are not important values to you in a marriage partner.

Did it occur to you that marrying someone who is dishonest, deceitful and unfaithful might not make for a good marriage partner?



Yes, you are. Screwing someone else's husband is contributing to the wreckage of another marriage. You are a homewrecker just like him.


And of course you would never "catch a whiff" because a deceitful man will LIE. And you know he is deceitful.

But the proof is in the pudding. He won't divorce her and that should tell you ALL you need to know. WAKE UP!

MelodyLane


Just so you KNOW, aint no one getting nothing for free from me. I am enough work that he wouldn't have bothered if he didn't feel something real.

And I never said, adultry isn't wrong (read my most about my own parents). But we started how we started, it's a shame he held out for 5 years yes, but I know many people who stayed in abusive relationships for YEARS and took their time leaving.

MelodyLane ... careful with your words. I'm sure you've lived a perfect, angelic life all your years and you've dedicated yourself to stomping out the evil in this world. But calm yourself down in this thread. I never said I was perfect. I'm just here sorting my life out as best as I see and choose, taking risks that I AM YOUNG ENOUGH to afford to take.

Way to go Mel, I was thinking the exact same thing.

And how can you Plan A and B him when you are not even married to him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Alls:

I must say, I've not seen a more clever, better rationalized misuse of MB methods before now.

There are a number of BIG things wrong with your approach, and why it won't work 2 use MB methods. But mainly:

&hearts;(edited: crap, the hearts thingy doesn't work anymore!) MB methods require RADICAL HONESTY. Having an A, or calling yourself a "sort of" isn't honest with yourself, much less the other parties involved.

I think you're smarter than this, but you're "fogged" and can't see that (no WS can see the fog from the fog).

You'll find, with time, that "constructive criticism" is seldom soft and fluffy. You want 2 be validated for the choices you've made, but you can't expect that here.

If you insist on continuing on this path, however, there are other forums that cater 2 this sort of self-destructive behavior - sadly.

-ol' 2long

Of course none of us are perfect. But none of us have to be perfect to recognize a fool's mission or to know right from wrong, do we? It's one thing to say you know something is wrong, but it means nothing if you don't practice those principles. Talk is cheap! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Ya have to walk the walk if you want to get any credit!


But are you getting paid as would a prostitute? At least she leaves the bed with something TANGIBLE in her hands. Since he is a married man, you leave with NOTHING because he is committed to someone else. He can walk off tomorrow [which he will] and you will have...........nothing.

So, I will ask again, are you getting paid for your services or are you putting out for free?

Your subject line is very telling to me. You refer to yourself as the OW- sort of. It tells me that you KNOW that you are the OW (of course you are, as you are involved with a married man). Bu then you follow up with "sort of".

Well you are or you're not. By definition you are. The "sort of" suggests that you are JUSTIFYING it. I suspect that you could actually see what is happening here but because you have seen the destruction first hand you are justifying it to yourself.

An affair is what it is. Pain is the ONLY result.

You are pleading with him for a healthy relationship and so far, he is unwilling to give to you. 7 months, BTW, is a very young relationship. You should be in the care-free, fun stage still. The fact that you are not should be telling you that all is not well. Coming here is telling you that all is not well.

Again, I refer to your subject line about having a "clean" fight....whatever that is (no sarcasim here, I just don't know what that is). In a healthy, worthwhile relationship there should not be a NEED to fight.

You have a family history of bad relationships with your parents and you state that you, at such a young age, have had several of your own. Whether you CHOOSE to see it or not, you are in another one. BE smart, BE a big girl and go out have someone you truely deserve. This guy does not sound like he is it. Think with your brain, not your feelings.

"I am enough work that he wouldn't have bothered if he didn't feel something real"

You're 2 young 2 know, yet, the difference between being "in love" and experiencing "real love".

Love is a choice, not a feeling. What you're describing here is "chemistry", and chemistry won't sustain you. In a 2ple years, precipitates will form at the bottom of your Erlenmeyer flask, and you'll have nothing left but a bitter-tasting solution.

(WAT, how did I do with that metaphor? Did I spell Erlenmeyer correctly? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

-ol' 2long
P.S. 2hip, gotta go mortise a hinge!

At what age is it SMART to have an affair with a married man? Do you really imagine that there is ANY age at which you can escape the consequences of profoundly foolish actions? You ARE very naive if you believe that, dear.

There will be consequences for getting involved with a married man. Not that he will ever marry you, but I promise you that if you do not start using more intelligence in your choices, you will suffer.

Choosing an unavailable married man who you KNOW is deceitful and unfaithful is not a wise choice that any woman can "afford."

When one chooses a marriage partner, some of the very most important traits that will ensure a lasting marriage are HONESTY and TRUTHWORTHINESS and FAITHFULNESS. This man has NONE of those traits, yet you oddly believe he is marriage material. It doesn't matter how old you are, you cannot EVER AFFORD to take such a stupid risk unless you are willing to pay high consequences. Such as being married to a man who will lie to you and commit adultery.

Just know this, if you do end up using such tragically poor judgement in choosing a marriage partner, you will be damning not only yourself to a life of he11, but innocent children. You will have no right to complain when your own H lies and cheats on you, because you volunteered. But innocent children did not.

I will just simply say that everything your MM has told you, my (F)WH told his mistress, to keep her on the string. He said he was divorcing me. He said he was going to move out. He said lots of things, but never followed them up with action.

If I were you, I would send a letter to the wife telling her of the affair, and asking for her idea of where her marriage is. What happens then will tell you everything you should already have known.

I wish you the best.

WAT again with the age thing! LOL!

I do have a father thank you very much, your surrogacy isn't needed.

And what exactly do "YOU" KNOW about anything? I bet you KNEW about your marriage until you realised you didn't right?

I'm starting off saying I don't know, thank you very much.

LadyJane, I don't need to sit down with his wife and do or say anything. I don't know her except for what I've heard from my SO.

And so you know, key members of his family know and his bestfriends.

Yes I know he's in the FOG right now. That's why I'm no longer making it possible for this to conitnue semi-hidden for longer.

LONG AND SHORT you've all been hurt by someone you feel that's just like me. That's where all this venom is pouring from. Everything you wish you could have said to your WS OP you're trying to say to me.

I get it.

But not all hands are the same.

Like it or not.

Some people do stay together long after a marriage ends - men in particular because the status quo is comfortable to manage.

Both their parents know of the impending divorce. Both know lawyers advised them to wait unless they saw the contract out.

TWO YEARS ago when SHE filed for D he started separating their assests, moving his business stateside, and their house is currently on sale.

We only started seeing each other 7 months ago. I had nothing to do with this.

Could I DISAPPEAR until it's all done - Yes. But he doesn't want that and has asked for my patience.

I would have been in this situation a total of 1 year by December. It HAS been loving, respectful, generous and healing for both of us.

So even if it ends, I'll be taking all that good stuff with me. The process of Plan A and B? A lesson in strength and discipline, and the MB rules don't just apply AFTER you're married! They can be used before you marry, in fact should be.

He's not 100% honest. Neither am I. Neither is any other human being on this earth.

But here's the joke - we don't make a habit of lying to each other about stuff that goes on around the relationship. And if we work out I will insist we go on the Harley's weekend seminar and take the one year MB course before walking down the aisle.

I'm no fool.

I'm sorry for all the pain OPs have caused in your marriages. But I maintain that I AM the "sort of"-OW and I can fight clean.

All he has to do is indicate there's something in the marriage for him. I will with my blessings (because I do care for his happiness) send him on his way.

MelodyLane, he PAYS me alright, but not with cash (at least not only) he PAYS me with attention, love, respect, affection, patience, understanding and did I say ATTENTION and RESPECT?

"I get it."

Um, with all due respect, you don't.

"But not all hands are the same."

Despair.com has a great poster that's relevant here:

"Always remember that you are unique - just like everybody else."

In this case, however, you are dead wrong. All "hands", with respect 2 affairs and affairee behavior, are very much the same.

-ol' 2long

Yikes, I saw this thread this morning and had no idea how to respond, except for one thing: You are not a "sort of" OW... make no mistake... you *are* the OW. I don't say that judgementally... I know from what I speak (as a FWW myself)... and ... I met my current H before the divorce(s) was final, so I really, really do not feel in a place to judge you.

However, I will say that your MM's inability to file for divorce should be sending some HUGE red flags out your way.

And you're so YOUNG... do you really want to be with a man who is dragging you along in some mamsy-pamsy "financially he can't do it yet" divorce battle? If it's bad now, it's only going to get worse when the divorce actually begins. And if his W is really wanting to get her hands on his money, you'd better be ready to support the man, because no matter if she cheated or not, she can SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO take him to the cleaners. Be prepared. And, be warned.

I feel for you because you seem to think this is real soul-matey stuff... and I believe that you love him. And while I don't agree with ML that *all* affair marriages end in divorce (because I've seen to many go on for years and years)... it's a nasty, awful way to begin the relationship/marriage. Marriage should be a place of peace and comfort. Somewhere down the line, AllsFair, you will feel crippling guilt and shame... I can almost guarantee it. And yes, affair marriage almost always end... and it usually has something to do with infidelity... because let's face it... he cheated on his wife... will you ever be able to fully trust him?

Maybe I should keep my veiws to myself but i just can't.

As a BW who has been married for almost 25 yrs whose WH left to live with the OW. I am disgusted by what you are saying. This man has lied to you and re-wrote his marital history. My WH has done the same thing with his OW, first he was un-happpy the last year then it went ot 3 yrs now its 5 yrs. Come on girl think about this if he really was that unhappy why didn't he walk 5 yrs ago?

Thats the same question I asked my WH, why didn't you leave then? His answer was a blank stare at me, he had no answer and you know why? Because there is none. He has done nothing but lie to me and the OW.

He has gone back and forth between us for the last 11 months, only difference between her and I is I knew the truth she didn't. She like you believed all he said and she was stupid enough to believe he was being faithful to her. Well guess what wrong answer, he was not being faithful to her.

Do you really believe that he is being honest with you about his relationship with his wife? I don't think so , he sounds like my WH a cake eater.... He wants you both .... So what are yo going to do once you find out the truth are ya gonna continue to hang on like my WH'S OW??? Are you that deperate you need to hang on to someone who is not avaliable and still has a family?

Smartest thing you can do is walk away and forget this married man who has a wife already. You are doing nothing but making yourself an immoral person. No amount of justifying or believing his lies will ever make it right.

What self-respecting woman would allow herself to be with a married man? You are young and there are many single men in this world, getout of someone elses marriage. You have no right to be there......


Hurting

All wayward spouses lie to their affair partners about the state of their marriage. They all lie about how "terrible" it is. It is how they justify the affair and keep the OP around to service them.

allsfair, everything your affair partner told you is the same stuff we hear on here every day. He just said it to keep you in place. They are all lies.

I second not-so-u-neak's suggestion that you contact the wife yourself. Don't take our word for it. You will likely find out that everything is a lie, even the so called "stalled divorce - for business reasons." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> There is NO divorce and it has never even been discussed. He is going home at night and acting like normal. The only difference now is that he saves himself the money of paying a prostitute.

Justuss, please delete this thread. Trolls have nothing to offer anyone.


*********sorry Longhorn, I didn't see it in time.********JustUss*********

Have you thought about where your MM will be if you end up pregnant? Have you considered the age difference and life experience differences? Starting out a marrige with a man fresh out of a divorce is difficult enough but add to it that you started your M with cheating and dishonesty. It really does not bode well for your future.

Expose this affair to his wife. That's how you'll find out if your relationship with MM has any legitimacy at all. You admit your information comes from the MM. It's tainted by his perspective. Check his story.

If you believe him...why would you be afraid to do that? If you had "nothing to do with this", and the guy is separated and telling you the truth...what's the hold-up? Talk to his wife.


What makes you think he's the only one? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Being dismissive won't change the truth. You can dismiss every member of this forum as a "bitter BS", but you'll still be in the same situation as before...no closer to real answers.

Your situation isn't any different than any other OWs. There's nothing unique about it.

If you're up for it, AF, you may want to read this thread, begun by an OW who married her affair partner. It's got some Christian content, but it's a very good thread, I think...

Views about marriage and remarriage

And I second, third, or fourth what Neak suggested: Expose to the wife... talk to her... find out the TRUTH... before it is too late.

I mentioned this on another thread..and here is a prime shining example.

A lack of boundaries with regard to who is and is not an *appropriate* partner to *begin* a relationship with.

So often in these situations the OP truly has the belief that THEIR relationship with the WS is the legitimate one.

All facts to the contrary are irrelevent and disregarded.

You could hold a stack of information under this young womans nose..and she would not be moved by it.

When she looks at the ugly truths..she is blinded by the beauty of her dreams distorting them.

Everything has an explanation, rationalization, justification.

You see..affairs may have similarities ..in fact she will bear witness to this..but *their* situation is different and unique. Real. It is his marriage that is not real..and was not prior to her arrival in the equation..she has it on good authority [smiles sadly].

So it has taken five years for this man to leave his wife..and he still hasn't done it.

Well, they own a business..they have customers..they have..expectations..and ..stuff.

There will always be more stuff.

The fact that she sees the situation AS a competition suggests that she KNOWS somewhere..somewhere however buried..that what she is doing is wrong.

The trouble is that although she knows it is wrong..she doesn't care..she has been promised her *prize* and she wants it.

I'm sorry to say that there will be nothing to deter her from this path she has chosen..nothing short of experiencing the loss she believes she is young enough to absorb the impact of and she is willing to take the "risk" because she believes that impact will never come. She may acknowledge the possibility at an intellectual level..but she does not believe it.

It is a very different thing to acknowledge that there are bears in the woods..and to find yourself standing helpless before one.

Unfortunately the best I can offer her..is sympathy that she has allowed herself to be so deceived by herself, her desires, her sense of entitlement, and this man..and sincere hope that the seed for knowledge of healthy relationship dynamics has been placed at least at a surface level..it will likely be driven deep by pain for her as it has for all here.

At that time we can extend warm welcome, for now she is one of the dangerous lost. Slashing and burning and untouchable because of it..though the effort is in vain.

Dear, if you call being used for sexual purposes in an affair with you to be "RESPECT" you have a strange idea of what constitutes "respect." There is nothing "respectful" about being used as piece of [censored] and then tossing you aside.

And you will be tossed aside, let me assure you. You will be left empty handed when he moves on.

This is why I say you should be charging for your services. At least a PROSTITUTE is smart enough to be left with something TANGIBLE, you will be left with NOTHING when he done with you. He has no committment to you, no nothing.

You are just being used, dear. He has no intention whatsoever of leaving his wife. He will move on when he gets tired of you to the next one.

Don't put out for free! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just think how silly it would be to imagine that a marriage with someone who CONDONES lying, adultery and FRAUD would be?

Now, wouldn't that be a fool's mission to beleive that any marriage could be successful that included dishonesty and unfaithfulness?

AF... i can't help myself but to jump into to this although i don't usually ....i try to keep to myself.

first let me say i am not going to bash you....and in posting this...i feel exactly the way i do when i am trying to talk to my WH...it isn't going to do any good because...you hear it but your not really listening.

how can you say he respects you? His wife probably thought or thinks he respected her too. but not going in to all that...

the point i want to make is...my H adored and still to an extent adores me...can't let go of me. doesn't want to. He can't live without me...he is with me every day and his A is dying...i see it....God has guided me every step.

In the beginning...H told OW and his friends and family how horrid i was...made up crap about me....i spoke to OW and she told me the things H told her that were VERY untrue and she thought/thinks he and i had a terrible, awful M.

simply NOT true. they LIE. LIE, LIE, and LIE more. they lie so much...they don't even remember what they say. eventually you will start to see...it will be hard to cover after some time.

understand this OW thinks our M is dead. she has NO idea. No clue. my dear....what is true is their A is dying. the fantasy and fun...is dying. My H is missing his family, he misses me his W, misses being with our friends.

No M is perfect and all hit hard times. still yet...God joined them and made them one. they are still M in God's eyes and what you have with this man is considered sin. God doesn't bless sin. I'm not trying to preach to you dear. i am trying to help you see and understand...

he is still married. like it or not...you are the OW, and she is his wife.

pray about this. God bless you.

Jaysmom

Awesome post, Noodle. You're right, of course. People have to come to their own realizations sometimes. Nothing anyone here says is going to be effective in helping her do that.

You can either see the bear or you can't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />




(I'm out. I've got better things to do today that aren't a waste of time.)

AF,

I'm curious why you posted this message here, at MB, where you say you have been reading and absorbing... you had to have known that you're a current OW... you had to have known that your thread would hurt (pierce, devistate) a current BS... you had to have known it would rile up the troops, which is made up of people who, for the most part, have dealt with infidelity (and I was a BS before I was a WS, so I can totally appreciate the horror of the BS when they read this)...

What do you honestly expect from us?

you'll get more support on another site it is www.gloryb.com check out the pink board.

Here, at MB, we are BUILDING MARRIAGES- notice the titel of the web site???

We are not promoting adultry or divorce.

And how in the world when you saw your mother hurt by adultry can you lower yourself to commit something so awful yourself.

disgusting

say he does divorce and marry you how long do you think he'll be faithful?

The other thing I want to add, I know my parents divorce, they however are on good terms and have stayed a unit as far as parenting me and my siblings go.

If I did marry my SO the fact that it would be his 2nd marriage would mean WE would take adequate steps to protect our marriage from hurt - we've both BTDT.

And Melody all that **** about my decision making skills leading me to pick the wrong person is just that - ****! Dr H wouldn't advise you to COMPETE with the OP if he didn't think there was nothing to worry about! And you WOULDN'T be fighting for your S if you didn't think they were great people!

What's that saying? All the good ones are taken? If my SO W wasn't smart enough to see he was a good one, treated him badly and filed for divorce why should I turn my nose on him if I think we have a chance?


2Long, how old were you when you got married? Most of the people on this board married in their mid 20s - MY AGE, so did my SO. Are you telling me NON of you knew what true love was when you married? Don't talk soft please. Did you all date your partner's for 10 years before marrying them? I'm sure for a lot of you it was a year or two years (I don't believe in cohabiting so I wouldn't have kids and blah blah for 50 years before getting married). So why should I not asssess my relationship after 7 months for it's validity? I should be "having fun and playing" at my age?


BTW, thanks for a slightly more respectful attitude I'm seeing a few people post with for now.

You don't have to read this. I am keeping updates for myself.

PS. BS with all due respect, you might find some stuff in here more useful than you think at the moment.

PSS. Don't get me wrong, if my H ever cheated on me while I was fully a part of the M, I would kill the OW and then come to work the marriage out with him. But I'd DO MY BEST to be the W of any man's dreams. No OW would find it a joke breaking up my family. I just wouldn't give up that easy.

PSSS. I may be in the fog as well, but I know the way out is putting our relationship back on the right track. And I know it's in my best interest to do this.

Allsfair, i fear you are going to be one of those who has to graduate from the school of hard knocks before the left brain ever kicks in. But even so, why not take our advice and give the mean ole WIFE a call and compare notes? Since you know that her husband is a liar, it might be helpful to get the scoop from someone who is NOT a demonstrated liar.

Of course, it might mean that your boy would dump you like a hot potato [which I suspect he will] but you seem pretty confident that he will choose you, so why not take the risk?

Cuz I just betcha there is NO "divorce," no nothing. Likely, he made the story up so you would keep putting out.

Give the woman a call!

After all, you are "young" and can afford "risks," right? Are you secure enough in his "committment" to you to make that call? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Jaysmom,

Thank you and God bless. I can hear the kindness in your post. Part of why I started this thread and spoke to Dr H (radio) for advise is because I want to know EXACTLY what I am up against.

I read reams and reams of posts about A on this Forum - I know how devastating they are.

In about 1 hour you've all told me:

- He could be lying to me about the state of the M: So I will be very careful to cross check his story and no take for granted that his perspective is the only one there is.

- Most relationships that start out this way (95% I'm told) don't work out because of the basis of dishonesty: I'll be watching out like a hawk that we don't do this to ourselves.

- The relationship will probably end and I should make sure it's worth it: If it does, I will have no regrets. I tried, and it didn't work out. I gained a lot. He has given me alot however I look at this.

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone by posting ...

We're either gonna be in the 5% or not.

There is a 5% chance that he is for real, that we are for real. I know it's hard for a lot of you to see that because of your situation. But it is POSSIBLE that we are the exception to the rule.

PS. It almost ALWAYS falls down to the woman to moderate the progress of her relationship. I am no different.

AllsFair...

I would like to invite you to email myself and my husband, Mr. W...Either of us would be glad to call you (we have free long distance) or if you aren't comfortable with that, then you could call us...I think that you *might* perhaps gain more from talking to a couple that has experienced infidelity firsthand...Many times, as I know you realize, meaning gets lost in the written word, for that reason I'm afraid that anything that I write to you might convey something unintentional and not allow me to establish rapport with you...You are obviously conflicted about what's going on in your life or you wouldn't be posting on an infidelity website...Would you please give me the opportunity to help you sort through your feelings and allow me to offer you my perspective as a former wayward spouse? If so, I would be more than glad to offer you a realistic view from the other side...Currently I am at my office, but I will be available around 4p.m. or so EST...Our email addy is in my signature...I will check it periodically for your response...I hope that you will at least consider my offer...I would genuinely love to share my point of view with you...

Best,

Mrs. Wondering

*Edited to add..........I just realized that I posted under Mr. W's name...Oh well...LOL...the offer still stands AllsFair, K? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dr Harley would tell you to stop being a ** and end your affair. He will tell you that an affair is doomed to FAILURE. He would tell you start using some intelligence in your choice of marriage partners. A relationship with a partner who believes in dishonesty and unfaitfulness is a fools missions and Dr Harley would tell you so.

?



No one in their right mind will respect an adulterous affair, dear. You are not talking to folks here who will tell you what you want to hear. You won't find many parrots here.

There is nothing respectful about what you are doing. Your affair is about as romantic and "respectful" as two pigs rutting in the pig pen. No one should use respectful words to describe something so disgusting and putrid.


So you have something against adultery but only when its done TO YOU? Wouldn't that make you a hypocrite?

If you married an adulterer and you condone adultery, wouldn't it be sort of silly to object when the adulterer only practices what was a known trait?

I don't sense that you are really thinking this through, are you?

Thanks for the kudos LJ,

It's always nice to have someone appreciate what you've written.

Notice the pattern though?

Here is an intellegent and reasonably articulate young woman..we can see that she does have some ability to play connect the dots..

nonetheless..she says that if such an event were to occur in her own marriage..she would *kill* the OW and THEN go work on the marriage issues [presumably after the funeral and whatnot].

The double standard seems to somehow go unnoticed. What she expects from other women [to back off until she and her H make things right or end them fully or die for their impertinence] and what she expects from herself.

What she is doing..does not line up with her OWN ethical standards..and yet..

It is also interesting to note that she DOES see herself in competition with his wife..which is a direct contradiction from her previous assertions that the marriage was only tied up with some business slumgullion..mere papertrail hinderances to a divorce already in process.

And so it goes.

It is not our situations that make it impossible to believe, but simple common sense and maturity. It is a LACK of clear thinking and life experience that allows you to imagine that:

a) he will ever leave his wife [he won't]

b) that you are not being used as a piece of side [censored]

c) that YOU are the "exception"

d) that marrying a person who does not believe in honesty or faithfulness would make a good marriage partner.

And you forgot MY best advice of the day:

e) NEVER PUT OUT FOR FREE!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

At least get paid for your services!

Actually, I think this would count as a LB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I told you, I care about him, I'm not here to ****** about his W - I don't know her except for what he's told me.

I am minding my business, which right now is OUR relationship. So I'm meeting ENs and removing LBs. I'm letting him know my expectations (whether he's lying or not this still lets him know where I stand).

It's not a dramatic relationship. It's not all fire and sex and scandalous bedroom antics. It's a regular relationship at 7 months, losing some of the 'new' edge if anything and settling comfortably except the issue of the impending D.

I'm not trying to hurt anybody, he can get a D and commit to the relationship by December or it's over. Not badly either. With a conversation and hug, explaining I must move on.

If he's lying that's his choice. He should be an actor cause he'd win an Oscar. But I don't think he is. At all. Sorry.

And right and left brain working fine thank you. (I don't mind lessons. Life is nothing but lessons and blessings anyway)

hi AF,

I know you believe your SO, the OW in my WH's life did the same. He had played us both, telling us both he loves us etc. She did not see him calling me from his work with the sweetest love messages, she did not read the emails he sent me. Until one day i called and she was there, she realized it was me he was talking to, even though he tried to make it sound like a regular talk... OW got very upset and called him a player (she shouted it, i heard it) and WH told her to "shut the f**k up b****h". She believed him when he said it was over between us for many months.. was actually 8 months that he lied to her. Maybe something to think about... He might contact her via phone or email when he is at work as well, you cant know that.. call the wife, then you will have peace of mind.

And if she tells you, yes the marriage is over, its only due to the business that the divorce aint over, then this will be your absolution from her and you should feel a whole lot better. If not, well then you will know what the deal is and can make your own choice whether to find someone else, or stay the OW.

My first thought is, why is any of the above your business? Why is THEIR marriage or his wife's ability to meet or not meet his needs any of your business?

if things are so great between you two...then you have nothing to lose by talking to his W. besides....if he loves and respects you as you say....

he will be thanking you for doing what he simply can't do...coming clean to his wife.

dear...we didn't have a bad M. had bumps...who doesn't. Nothing i did....gave him the right to lie about our M, and re-write our M....nothing justifies adultry. NOTHING!!! i have been the wife of his dreams...thats why they usually always....head back home. we are real...OP are escapes from reality. You can't live in fantasy...eventually you have to face reality. don't you see what we are all saying.... I have heard the lies the OW was told....and she was a bit in shock to hear my side...but....i ended contact with her...and my H was able to continue lying and covering up to her. she decided to believe him.

i decided to let God control it. and honey....its falling apart. His guilt is evident. He is miserable.

so what will it hurt to speak to his wife...Huh? because he asks you not to? whats his reasoning for not? buisness? if they are divorcing anyway and have no children? sounds like a big fat cover to me!

what exactly are you fighting for dear? fighting to get this man to leave his wife? fighting for a married man who claims to be sooooo unhappy...but yet refuses to divorce his wife...

go ahead...seek out a second side to his story.

JM

In other words, you are AFRAID to call her because you know he will dump you like a hot potato. And we all know why. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

You know you will find out everything he has told you is a lie and you are only being used. There is no "divorce," dear.

You just contradicted yourself. You said you're keeping an eye on his MARRIAGE, but you're not a homewrecker????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Please re-read the above and YOU tell me what's glaringly wrong with that statement?

Allsfair...

Are you at least considering my offer? I'm not going to scream and yell at you, I sincerely want to share my story with you...I really think that you *may* gleen something of value from speaking to me...I honestly do care...what do you say?

Mrs. W

if i didn't already love my WS....if i didn't have a history with him.....if i hadn't loved and been committed to this man for a very long time.......

I WOULD NEVER BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM NOW

i would NEVER be in a relationship with a man who was willing to break his marraige vows and cheat on me FOR ANY REASON....if i hadn't already had a relationship with him when he was a good man......if i didn't have all of that history that makes my heart rule over my head....i would know better than to ever want to try again with a man like this.....i would want better for myself.....i deserve better

i feel sorry for you and every OW who thinks so little for themselves that they walk into a relationship with someone who they know for certain is willing to do this and are foolish enough to think that you are "so special" he won't do the same things to you...

someone who can rationalize and excuse hurting the person who loves them most in the world.....who they promised before god to love, honor, and cherish, FORSAKING ALL OTHERS UNTIL DEATH

what a fool you are to want this man...to fight for this man....to not run as fast and as far as you can

he NEVER was a good, honest man, committed only to you

and you still fell in love with him.....

what a fool you are

what did Dr H tell you when you called the radio show?

B I N G O !

And how do you know any of what he says is true? Because he says he LOVESSSSSSSSSS you? Because he's good in bed???????

Is he also the sole source for your info about his sad sad tale of the state of his marriage and his <cough> <cough> pending 2 year divorce in the making? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Noodle,

See, here's the thing. I've been called on for saying I would "kill" my H's OW, "what if he lied to her?" I've been asked by friends. The fact is, even if he lied to her, I wouldn't give a toss. I'd physically remove her from our lives after giving her a good trashing. Because I WOULDN'T know her from Adam. And my H is my family.

No, I don't see it as hypocritical with my actions. If I caught scent my H was having an A I'd hunt it down! His W knows about me, not in truth, but she knows. I haven't had anyone banging my door down.

If there was anything to the marriage and he was lying to me where would he find time to be with me as often as we have been? Why would he meet my friends or speak with them? I won't introduce him to my family until I see some D papers though. I speak to him all hours of the day. We've been attached at the hip for 7 months.

I only take calculated chances, and I've kept the stakes high enough that he wouldn't be in this if he didn't care. As I told him in my email - if he doesn't see a future for us HE wants to WORK towards he should let me know.

I have a temper and he knows it. He has never hidden his M or W or DD (from his youth) or house address or number or work address or anything from me. If this was a "dirty affair" as Melody put it, he sure didn't take the usual steps to hide it.

I'm no fool. And this is a calculated risk.

Melody, like I said I GET PAID LOADS and even if we end it would still be one of those relationships that raised the bars of my expectations from men.

Just so you know, Mel, he does NOT bad mouth his wife and I never would either. It took him a long time to tell me any details about the M. I don't think she's evil or crazy or any of that. IMO she just doesn't want him.

Which is fine. Cos, I do.

And if I'm wrong then the relationship won't go anywhere anyway and there'd just have been a little more love spread around the world.

Melody seriously I worry for you. Your obsession with prostitutes and payments for sexual services is a little disconcerting? Is this how you view your marriage? An barter of goods and services? If so I hope you at least ask for a bit more than money? I mean I DO have a job and good life for a 24 year old, my parents DO have money, I am educated and WILL be enrolling for an MA. Money is not such a big issue for me 'deary' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I ask him for more than just money, and he gives it without fail. That's why I'm 'fighting' for this.

I had a colleague at work who was involved with a MM for a period of years. He told her all the same things your MM has told you - bad M, no sex, etc. He also told her the D had been filed but was "on hold" - first because of some issues in his business and, then, because his W was diagnosed with cancer. She broke it off with him, met a REALLY nice (single) guy who she dated for over a year. Nice guy proposed to her. At the exact same time, MM called her and told her he had filed for D and please, please, please don't marry Nice Guy he was there to prove to her he meant what he said. Well, a simple check of court records in all of the counties in his State established they had not filed for D. She then spoke to his wife who had no clue the girlfriend existed and politely informed the girlfriend they always had a very close relationship and were now, in fact, expecting another child.....If I were you, I'd check out MM's story by asking his W whether they are really splitsville....It will, at least, establish your MM's credibiliy and integrity, or lack thereof.

Regards,

BB

Ohhhh, I see. So only YOUR marriage would count. She (his WIFE) is less a human being therefore her marriage is not important like yours. Makes perfect sense. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

AF...i want to add just one more thing. i too come from a divorced family. thats why i fight for what i believe in so hard. thats why i spend hours and hours in prayer...on my face to God.

God knows my convictions. I grew up torn between my mother and father. My mother was the WW. i saw my dad cry. i say his pain. i grew up watching my mother live in the guilt and torment of what she did and the family she hurt.

all to end up with the OM. My step dad is the best most wonderful person. he however is not my father. he is my step dad. He loves my mom. they married. they had a child together. they are still married 22 years later. they both love God and i know in my heart God forgave them.

but let me tell you....my mom and step dad look happy to others...but they are not. they are miserable. they do not have a happy marriage. they have had happy times. but she isn't happy. He isn't happy. they are still married i believe because they don't want to divorce...again.

my mother to this day...will still at times apologize to my dad. My mother to this day...still lies to me and says my dad was the reason they divorced...why...because...she is still that WW. still blaming and covering her sins.

you may marry this man, your M might survive as you so desperatly want it to. but it may only survive. just like my mom's. Married because they don't want to divorce again. My dear...they are so unhappy...they both live with the guilt.

i hope you will pray about this. you deserve someone good. someone who will be proud of you and not hide you. someone who will give you ALL of their heart. i just don't see anything good coming out of a relationship that has to be hidden.

Jaysmom

Actually resilient..

Sorry to correct you...[winks] but *actually..the self contradiction comes only from her own mouth [er..fingers]

1 Keeping close watch on the marital status

[ok..I'm gonna be crude here to make a point..she says she is keeping watch for even a "whiff"..but is it realistic to expect to be able to single out the odor of ONE turd when you are IN a sewer?]

vs

2 Minding her own business and dealing with her own relationship issues.

See..it cannot be any other way..she is forced to live a contradiction..she MUST watch his marriage..because the health of HER relationship DEPENDS on the failure of the marriage. If things were showing any sort of improvement..that would be a direct threat to her own investment.

The marriage and the affair are directly tied together..one can not be separated from the other. The can not exist co-dependently forever..one of them has to end.


Affairs..once outed [I know that an affair in which the WS is having some needs met by the spouse..and some by the OP can in fact continue for a very long time] resolve themselves.

Which actually..could make exposing a good plan for her..just as it could for his wife if she knew [let's not assume that she does]

If Mr WS was FORCED to deal with his reality..which IS the fact that he is having an affair..if he just had to deal with his customers and neighborhood and family and friends and passers by on the street KNOWING..then he would have nothing to lose. He would in essence be free to make his honest choice and damn the consequences. [cold hard fact..loss just IS a fact of divorce..he should not expect to be able to find a way out that won't COST him anything..which..aside from outright lying..is the only thing that comes to mind when trying to figure how a simple divorce could take so many years to bring about]

Mr WS is hanging on to SOMETHING..we don't know what, maybe HE doesn't know what. OW for *sure* doesn't know what.

Funny, that's exactly what my colleague at work said....along, with me about my XH and his OW who he SO in love with and who was SO in love with him - once we were Divorced (which I had to file for and pursue BTW because XH never did - even though he had been with OW for 3 years) they were together for exactly 1 year and split up. She is now living with yet another guy and my XH was left with nothing.

Believe me, in this day and age, it is VERY easy to find a way without the BS knowing. I know of a guy who had had an on again, off again, A for 15 years now. His W had absolutely NO clue. He was with this woman all hours of the day and night, introduced her around his social circle, met her social circle. His wife was, recently, critically ill and lo and behold, when he ended it with the OW, he told her his W meant more to him than anything and if he really wanted to have a life with OW, he would have left his W long ago - in other words, it was nice kiddo, but that's all she wrote....We all see that he is now truly a changed man.

Regards,

BB

Regards,

BB

AF,

Don't delude yourself any further ...

You ARE the OW, NOT SORTA

But don't you see? You are not in marriage. I AM. My H married me. This man won't marry you. He will only use you and leave you empty handed. No committment, no nothing.

So, my suggestion is to at least be as smart as a prostitute and get paid for your services since you will be left with nothing else. If you are going to act like who** be smart enough to get paid for your services. At least a prostitute is smart enough to get some compensation. You will end up with NOTHING. She won't.


Frankly, someone who is as easily fooled as you is not taking "calcaulated risks" because you do not have the ability TO calculate or to see the reality of your own situation. Chasing a man who is a demonstrated liar and an adulterer is not taking a "calculated risk," it is being a fool.

Of course he isn't going to "let you know" and of course there isn't a future here. He has no intention of leaving his wife, but will tell you whatever it takes to keep you putting out for FREE.

And just think, he has you successfully deluded at least until December. That saves him the cost of hiring a prositute. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

You seem to be avoiding our suggestions to CALL his wife and verify everything he has told you. Your reluctance to verify his statements tells us that you know he is lying and are CHOOSING to be deluded.

Got it. Operative word throughout is MARRIAGE .. as in he is MARRIED and she, Alls Fair, IS the OW. Hence an affair which is illegitimate and sleazy.

Allsfair, did you miss my earlier post:

"In other words, you are AFRAID to call her [OM's wife] because you know he will dump you like a hot potato. And we all know why.

You know you will find out everything he has told you is a lie and you are only being used. There is no "divorce," dear. "

Ahem...Allsfair...your *CHOICE* not to even acknowledge me and my offer to you is conveying a message quite audibly to all here...I wonder if you realize how very telling that that choice is regarding your actual motives here...I challenge you to prove me wrong...

Mrs. W

Allsfair-

You sound SO much like my FWH's OW that it's disgusting! You're disgusting!

My H had a 2yr A. Like you, this OW thought my H was the "perfect" husband: affectionate, loving, blah, blah, blah. Like your SO, my H had the OW convinced and fooled. You and the OW fell right into their smooth talks just so you would put out. You two spent nights and every waking moments thinking about our H and how you two would lure them away from their oooh, "abusinve" wives and family. You and the OW do ALL that you can to "SELL" our H how "YOU" are the "perfect" one and only one for them!

Then when you can't get our H, you as the OW start giving our H's ultimatum all the while you claim yourselves as "smart." If you and the OW were "smart", you two would know giving our H ultimatums ain't going to work.

When my H confessed, I kicked him out. BUT, he never went to the OW. As the OW, expect you won't win. If he truly loves you and you feel you ARE the one (you've done well to convince yourself this) where is he? Don't think he'll come running to you even when his wife kicks him out!

Like my FWH's OW, her xH of 10 yrs also cheated on her. Well, you'd think she'd wise up after that. Like the OW, you are nothing more than a "security blanket." If you are smart and intelligent as you claim to be, why stoop this low and settle for crumbs from a married man? You already know that this is all that you are and will be getting!

My only advise to you is you deserve someone who is "available". Don't latch on a married man or any man who is NOT 100% emotionally and physically available. You are nothing more than a part-time lover. That's all you are! But hey, if that's all you're willing to settle for, then hang around. But expect that his wife may not and will not give up her husband without a fight either!


Click on Dr Phil's advice on OW like you which he refers people like you as "thieves in the night; like sharks lurking in the water near the shore waiting for that opportunity to attack". Pretty powerful statement, don't you think?

http://www.drphil.com/articles/article/41

Go away and leave that man alone. How would you like it if the situation were reversed? You the BS?

Stargazelily

AllsFair can try to polish this turd till her arms fall off, but ultimately a turd is just a turd.

She is in an illicit affair and being used by a MARRIED man. Which makes her an OW.

jaysmom,

I actually like you, which is why I can respond easily to you without being rude. And I appreciate your tone with me even though I'm sure you may feel similarly to some others here about me being 'scandalous'.

I know the DD that he DOES have, I've got LOADS of pictures of her and she knows about me. We're planning a meeting as she lives abroad. I am very up to date on her life. First time we met he whipped her picture out of his wallet proudly.

I won't go to her behind his back. Not because he asked me not to - he wouldn't DARE ask me such a thing. AND I've CLEARLy told him from the beginning that I WOULD NOT LIE if asked straight about our relationship because that would be too insulting for me and the situation is bad enough as it is.

If I truly doubted in my heart heart that he was telling me the truth, without a shadow I'd call her up WITH HIM STANDING THERE and ask questions. I have no time for foolishness.

But as it is I don't think he's lying to me. And I have to trust that and him if I truly believe we stand a chance as a couple.


Resilient - I said "keeping a close eye on what HE SAYS about the M". Try again.

And don't be childish. I think he's telling me the truth because he's consistent, because it makes sense, because he's been long suffering with the pressures I put on him as his SO, because he lays his life open open to me - no HIDDEN access to anything. Because he gives me access to his W and I feel he wouldn't if he was being scandalous.

And what's the obsession with sex with some of you guys??? Seriously, I OWN a dildo, it's not that expensive to buy, I can have SF all by my merry self!

Eav - I don't agree with you on this one AT ALL. EVERYONE is capable of having an affair, it's not a gene some are born with. Its all about ENs, LBs and LBanks.

And yes, our situation is complicated. But I am giving it a chance because I SEE IN HIM GOOD MARRIAGE BUILDING INGREDIENTS regardless of what y'all think about how we kicked off.

I KNOW what '******' looks like. And I know someone in a tight spot. No they shouldn't have stayed in the M for economic convinience. But they did. So if our relationship is worth more than money to him, like I said in my email, he'll act accordingly.

Moveforward - Dr H. and J said it was a difficult situation. But that under no circumstances would they advise beginning a relationship until the papers where signed. Because he said it would be easy for him to use me as a crutch while he got over the marriage. However, he said there were caveats. 1) That there were no children involved and 2) That his W filed for D and has an OM. But still, he was clear that his business was saving marriages and so he would advice that I waited till after the D to see if he still felt our relationship made sense. Almost verbatim.

I will post my ff up email to the H's.

Just so you know, I agree with his adivse by the way, and we tried to do it this way because my SO was particularly worried that things would get so ugly between us because of the M that we wouldn't have a chance after the D. We BOTH tried. We just never quite made it. So for me, if our relationship has the quality that we both feel it does, then it deserves respect, as 7 months has shown it's probably not going anywhere anytime soon.

And, no, I don't feel economics is a good enough reason to delay the D.

Mrs Wondering - Yes, I accept your offer. Because I want to know what you have to say and I always appreciate advise from people older than me (many of my friends are btw). Thank you for offering this, and I hope you will be as open minded as I'm trying to be by sharing this with you. There are no BLANKET TRUTHS and as long as you hear me out fairly, I have no problems talking with you. I don't mind calling you, so I'll email you my email and you can give me your num. If the call goes on for too long I might have to ask you to call me back though!

lol... towtroll. very cute.

Fair enough, Allsfair...I look forward to speaking with you...It will have to be after 4pm EST...I'll keep an eye on our inbox...Btw, I work with many people your age and younger, and I truly enjoy their friendships and perspectives...I think that ours will be a fruitful conversation...I really do look forward to "meeting" you...

Mrs. W

you said

"EVERYONE is capable of having an affair, it's not a gene some are born with. Its all about ENs, LBs and LBanks."

well then.....how can you explain all of the BS who most certainly ARE NOT having ANY NEEDS MET RIGHT NOW FROM WS, who are getting LB by them as they cheat and lie to us everyday, and who's LBANKS are ar from getting deposits........and yet we are still faithful and committed to our vows?

could it be becuase we have MORALS and VALUES and are making a CHOICE to be faithful??

newsflash.....everyone and anyone IS CAPEABLE of having an affair...if and only if, they are the kind of person who CHOOSES to.....no-one forced them to make this choice

but they were WILLING TO

so everything i said, still stands...you are making a choice also.....and again i say "what a fool you are"

Thought we should alter your sig line to reflect accuracy:

AllsFair SIG:

[color:"blue"]--------------------
Me 24 OW
SO 38 MARRIED MAN

Affair 7 months old
SO is lying about seeking a divorce, I want to believe but affraid to confirm with his WIFE. No kids which helps with my guilt in boinking a married man. M 12yrs.
Goal: Give him an ultimatum to leave his WIFE so we can be together so I can eventually experience what she has, betrayal.[/color]

You mean you have no time for the truth. You know you will find out he is lying and don't WANT the truth to interfere with your little fantasy. You would be dumped like a hot potato because you know he will choose his wife over you. He already has.


Of coures he is not telling you the truth. That is silly to believe he is. He is a demonstrated liar by his words and his actions even though you are too immature and naive to see it.

But you can easily find out by calling his wife TODAY. If you are so certain he is telling the "truth" then you should WANT to do this.

But you and I both know you don't want to do this because you know you would be dumped like a hot potato. The "divorce" story is a lie. And you are AFRAID to find this out.


Is that the TRUTH? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

*********************edit*********************

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Patriot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...I think that your P.O.V. could be quite valuable to AllsFair...How did what you told the OW in your situation differ from your actual feelings?

Mrs. W

AF-

Take ML's advice!

Like my FWS, he told the OW we were divorcing for the 2 years he was screwing her for free! The OW believed my H. She went as as as telling her kids my H would be moving in w/them to become a family! Yeah, right!

I called the OW! Told her the TRUTH and her kids the truth! There was NO divorce!

D-day was 2/1/06. Kicked H out that night. I asked for D 2 wks ago. He called the next day. He begged I reconsider. We started MC, his idea. We just got back from a 5 day cruise to Mexico, his idea.

Your SO will not leave his W for you. If he wanted to, he would've done it a long time ago. Besides, since you're much younger than he, financially independent, you would be one heck of a catch, don't you think? You could make up the financial loss he would incur in a divorce with his wife. One thing for sure, if there is a HUGE financial loss, unless you're Trump or Warren Buffet, getting a divorce would be pocket change.

Get a grip of realtiy AF, he's not going to dump his wife for you!

I agree with you (except for the fool part of course). You guys really need to get that I'm not losing anything in this. And I'm getting alot of ENs met in the meantime.

I have set my limit and threshold and I'm sticking to it.

I just wanted to comment on this and then bow out as I am still unclear why you posted in the first place on the indidelity section of this site.

You wrote:

I am a BS. I was a very devoted wife and a good one at that. I had plenty to fight for when WH walked out and had an A--BUT I did not bang down any door. Some do, some don't. This site doesn't particularly advocate it anyway--just adds more fuel to the infidels.

This comment caught my eye because I think you are comparing what you would do if ypur H was having an A to what she hasn't done. Now, could be a couple of things:

1. She doesn't know!
2. She's like me and chose to fight for her M in another way. You don't have to bang down doors and attack the OP to fight for your marriage, AF.

We are close to the same age, and it just saddens me that you would settle for something like this. I would never settle for a relationship that started off like this.

I think you might be afraid to find out the real truth, because then not only will you lose this SO, but you'll have to accept your part in this destructive path.

You keep saying if it ends, then "oh well--I will at least leave with something." Huh? If a relationship I was in ended and I was in love and was considering marriage--I would upset and not just write it off so easily. And I don't think you will, either. I think you want to sound so strong and confident, but really deep inside you know this is the wrong path for you.

Does he live with wife still?

You sound very defensive and angry, dear, and can't disagree with a word I said, can you? But how does any of that answer my questions? Calling me a bitter old hag might make you feel good, but it answers nothing. Why not try again? Let's put on our thinking cap and be thinkin' gals! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I realise we are asking tough questions you might not like, but answering by calling names just makes it look you want to change the subject for some reason. And we know the reason, don't we? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Let's try again, ok? You claim to be a smart girl, lets see you prove it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

p.s I am very happy in my marriage, thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AllsFair
Don't post that much but, there need's to be a few things said here that you have not considered.
First of all, most of us here are indeed older than you and somehow, feel that we have learned a few things about life and relationships that you have not come to grasps with yet.
It, for me, was an eye opener. Most of us muddle along through our life thinking things are just fine, and there is no crisis on the horizon. Just when you begin to feel comfortable with this, disator can strike. Ask the folks in New Orleans.
I congratulate you for posting on this forum. It would seem, at first hand, that you picked the wrong forum to post on, but, in retrospect, you have inadvertently choosen the perfect forun to post on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
There are many wonderful people who populate this forum, but many are like me, in that they are BS's and, like me, are having a really difficult time in getting over that.
Many have alluded to your very young age of 24 and have concluded that you do not really know how cruel life can be. I echo these setiments, but i also recognise your intelect.
In matters of the heart, however, you are indeed still a babe in the woods.
I'm sure you are convinced that your married OM is your soulmate. Let's consider, howerver, how committed he is to you. He tells you he cannot D yet because of business. I would have sold my business, my home, and my soul for the love of my life! Perhaps to my detriment, I might add, but nonetheless, I loved my w to a fault. He, however, doesn't seem to be there yet. are you willing to settle for soo much less than that?
If so, you sell yourself short.
I won't slam you with what so many others have alredy told you, with truth in their hearts. I would only say that you need to gaina NEW prospective to finally know the real truth.I wish you well in your journey.
All blessings,
Jerry

AllsFair,

You are on the wrong site. You have no marriage to save or rebuild. But instead are trying to destroy one. You are an OW in denial and this site does not support OW.

AF,

You didn't answer the question.

"Why" whether he lied to her or not.."why" would some other woman who thinks she has a better shot than you with this man..and takes her chance .."why" should she be killed or retaliated against in any way?

After all..is she not just looking after her own interests as you are?

Do the same rules not apply to you?

You said..in the same breath mind you..that his wife knows..and that she doesn't..then say..well no one has come knocking on my door so she must not care.

Do you SEE the breakdown of logic here?

If she knows and does not come after you with a shovel..could it not also mean that she is a woman who excercises restaint to a greater degree than yourself? That she does not believe that BEHAVIOR is acceptable whatever the trigger?

I'm not asserting that this is so..I'm outlining for you..that you are making an assumption about her..that is based on wishfull thinking..because this line of thinking grants you some degree of self permission to continue.

You have said..that you do not know her at all..so there is no way that you could dispute with a laundry list of her crimes or behaviors that contradict that possibility *without* also outing yourself as a liar.

Then you said that she knows about you..but not in truth.

What does that mean precisely?

Now you say..that the fact that he spends so much time with you..must mean that there is nothing to the marriage.

OR

He can temporarily hide from his life while with you and this feels better while he is doing it than facing his problems does.

When he is with you..he can disappear into a fantasy..not just sex..but easy companionship that has not been marred by years of ill marital health..mutual bad decisions..mutual resentments..and just reality.

Doing laundry together is fun..H and I used to enjoy all sorts of everyday chores while we were playing house...but when those things become expected..when they are simply added to the stress of adult lifestyles and relationships it has an added element..for example..doing the laundry is LESS fun when you have had 2 hours of sleep and children just threw up on the floor meanwhile you don't feel so hot yourself and most of the money you used to use for recreation is now tied up in the investments that a realistic future requires. This stage of life..is a necessary but difficult and often unpleasant stairstep on the ladder of maturity. Denial of gratification..or at least its delay for a greater good requires self control and much restraint. A lot of young marrieds hit this spot and run for the hills in short order. It isn't fun anymore and won't be for a good long time. The loss of freedom as you invest elsewhere is painfull..however..who would volunteer to be stranded in a teenage or early twentysomething stage of life forever? Choice and cost..always counterbalancing each other.

Add on top of that..when he goes home..reality sets back in. He is an unfaithfull man. Ask some of the former unfaithfull spouses here..to describe what living like that is like..and WHY they just couldn't seem to press their palm onto that nail accept the pain and work through it..nor could they remove it completely and move on to the *new* relationship.

What IS really revealing for YOU..is that his answer to these problems is to find an enjoyable distraction and invest his time there.

This is a habit..and THIS is what would cause him to continue to have affairs when the going gets rough [and it will, no one is exempt]..for whatever reason he does not have either the skill or the will to manage his life with integrity..and the lack of integrity will eventually destroy him..no one can live as half a man..who would want to?

You can't complete him for him..he needs to be whole and functional on his own..you can't fix him..you can't set up every event in your lives to be favorable and enjoyable for him and EVEN IF YOU COULD you would resent the parent child dynamic that such artificial structures require.

You say that you are taking a calculated risk..but your fugures are based on wishfull thinking.

You say that IF he doesn't see a future with you that he wants to WORK for..then he should let you know..but hasn't he *already* demonstrated that he is UNABLE to do that?

You would require from that he be honest, forthright, and act with integrity regardless of the consequences for himself..even while you are able to observe that he will seek pleasure and avoid pain at every turn. He will pacify you..so that you will contionue to provide whatever it is that he benefits from in your relationship..and he will continue to delay the divorce proceedings with her [if they exist at all..so far it looks like not] because even if he hated her..he isn't willing to lose skin in the deal.

He isn't willing to PAY for his choices..and so he isn't willing to really MAKE them.

You won't either.

You will not introduce him to your family..because as it now stands..this relationship is shamefull and you know it and you prefer to shroud and veil the realities until you can MAKE them appear to be what you would like them to be.

There are so many contradictions in your posts..that it seems you are flailing wildly from one stance to another..first reasoned and smooth..the next street talking and so inarticulate I have more than once questioned that it was the same person posting.

This affair is not what you wish it was..will never be what you wish it was..I'd suggest that rather than attempting to "win" you question the value of the game..but I can see that this is fruitless..any further interest is for me..purely academic..it really is like watching a car wreck in slow motion..and I truly must question my own mental status that I have some sort of gratification in watching anyway.

Alls Fair,
I know it is harsh to read all these postings, but they are right. We may be taking a little of our anger out on you, but the basic facts are still right. You are being naive and taken advantage of by an unfaithful husband. Bottom Line, get out while you are still young and don't waste your youth on him.

You are being USED and enjoying it; that is the behavior of a fool. And you will end up none the better for it. You and I both know he will dump you like a hot potato once his W finds out.

you ARE losing something

your values, self-respect, and honor

as well as the respect of your friends and eventually your family when they learn of this

is this really who you thought you'd be?

someone who sleeps with a married man?
someone who has no regard for the vows of marraige and would be willing to be with someone who doesn't either for ANY reason?

Is this really who you want to be?

Because that's who you are as long as you continue having an affair with this man.

Shine through, thanks for this. This was why I posted a thread. And I wasn't aware I posted in the wrong place.

I hear you. I don't know about "soul mate" as in one and only. I think WHOEVER I marry is my soul mate, because we would not have taken that step unless we intended to learn how to BE "soul mates".

I hear you with regard to leaving everything for one's soul mate though (businss, NOT family) but unfortunately he has made many financial sacrifices in the past and is nervous about doing it again.

But it's not a good enough reason for me. Not at ALL. I will bear that in mind (from a man's perspective as well) when speaking with him.

Eav - If only you knew! But, I won't go there.

Listen. As young and immature as you may all think I am, I do know this - life isn't black and white.

I'm 24! I AM young! No doubt. I am supposed to be. If I don't know or understand certain things it's because I've got years ahead to learn them.

Our choices have consequences. And I believe in doing what you feel is right FOR you as long as you can handle the consequences.

I don't see the risks the same way you guys do. You may feel I am losing "values, self respect, honour" But NOONE can take those things away from me! Not my SO, not you guys, not Melody, not the most vicious jury in the world.

I believe in my choice and I am making it for better or worse.

Allsfair, I would also add that this is a MARRIAGE BUILDING forum, not a marriage WRECKING forum.

MB will not help you destroy someone else's marriage. For support in that kind of putrid, immoral, sleazy behavior, you might consider slumming over at another board called TOW.

It is a real trip to the sewer, but somehow I suspect you would fit in just fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is doubtful. If you were as "sure" as you claim, you wouldn't hesitate to call the OMW today to discuss their so-called "delayed divorce" and verify everything else he has said.

But you and I both know you can't do that. You would be dropped like a hot potato if you did.

www.gloryb.com

check out the pink board


oh, wait you probably already post there

please go back

AF...
in response..to you won't go behind his back...then don't. Next time he is with you...simply say...hey, i need to come clean to your wife....gonna go call her right now..okay. and then call her. tell her who you are...and what you have been doing with her H. with him right there.

i didn't call OW behind my H back ....even though i had every right too. Nope...i called her him standing right beside me. shocked the sh*t out of him and he got mad. I asked her what she had been doing with my H. she lied and so did he. He then called her BEHIND my back to apologize for my call. You see...to cover up to her....to lie some more to her....

then he comes back to me...to lie to me some more about the A.

i know you want to trust this man, i know you don't want to hear the W's side....but whats right is right.

My son has been around OW....he's 4, just turned 4. One night he was sniffing in the bed...and said to me...Mommy...i didn't talk to that woman today...cause i wanted to make you happy....

even at 4 he knows wrong. he could sense it. He also was torn up over it too. My H didn't give him enough credit in thinking he would tell me...he then started saying our son was lying...

do you see...his DS, his baby, the child he adores...he sunk down low enough to call him a liar.

they will hurt anyone in their pathway just to get their fantasy...even the children.

AF...pray about this....call Mrs. Wondering...

Jaysmom

Jaysmom, she is not concerned about going behind his back. She knows if she calls the OMW, she will be dumped like a hot potato. She will find out the "delayed divorce" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> is a lie along with everything else.

come on, let's not waste any more breath on this one. There are people here who need real help.

i don't believe your foolish choice has anything to do with your age or maturity

you have never been married so no matter what you say or think.....you can't imagine what it would feel like to have that kind of a bond with someone

even if you were cheated on by somone you dated, you could never imagine how it feels to have the person who vowed to be faithful to you forever, forsaking all others.....cheat on you, lie to you, and leave you with a broken heart

but....

it has to do with YOUR values, morals and beliefs

you are right.....it is your choice to be with this type of person and to be this type of person

you are also right....you will have to live with the consequences

"what a fool you are"

I think I will just let this one lie. My situation doesn't really apply here and the only thing more dangerous than a person who is wrong thinking they are right.. is a person who knows they are right.

I will add the obligatory "an intimate relationship built on lies requires sanitizing from the deception or it will collapse"

Noodle,

Thanks for your post. You took your time. I know no one would be posting if I hadn't hit a raw nerve. In a way I apologise ... but this is NOTHING to what I will probably get from people who may not realise their M is over. Noone EVER likes the 2nd wife or step mom (I know).

"You said..in the same breath mind you..that his wife knows..and that she doesn't..then say..well no one has come knocking on my door so she must not care."

- I said she knows "of" me. My name. She knows a female called AllsFair is in his life and is important to him. She has not been explicitly told that it is a relationship (for all it's worth because SO wants to end things as calmly as possible). Don't put words at my fingers. I didn't say she does not care - I've consistently said I don't know her.

I AGREE WITH ABOUT 80% OF YOUR POST!!!

Playing house is different from the real deal!

Loving someone after 10/15/20 years of LIFE is a different matter from when you've just loved for less than a year!

Yes! Yes! Yes! To MOST of what you said!

I am not living a fantasy ... well ... let me rephrase that - FALLING IN LOVE is a fantasy. It is a suspension of each others faults. A suspension of reality in many ways. This is the easiest time in a relationship, everyone is on their BEST behaviour!

I am no angel, I'm sure you'll concur. And neither is SO. He never fails to point out whenever I say I like something like a quirky smile or mannerism, that it is this VERY thing that will annoy the ****** out of me in a few years.

He went on about the age difference when he first realised like you wouldn't believe! All the complications when he's 70 and I'm still 56.

He IS a workaholic. I have to put up with that.

He has a DD that is and MUST (for my peace of mind in his value as a father) be a priority in his life.

I see the challenges. The falling in love stage is passing quickly. It is not going to be possible to suspend reality for much longer.

I have my life to get on with. So either it moves on with him or it moves on without him. He has till December, THOUGH I HAVEN"T TOLD HIM!

This is where you guys get it twisted. I'll NEVER tell him to D! Never! Because then it would be true when people like you say I ended his marriage.

But I take my honest belief of the situation and assess my needs and my position. And THAT I share with him.

It is true that if our relationship was the real thing he wouldn't let anything stand in the way.

"You say that IF he doesn't see a future with you that he wants to WORK for..then he should let you know..but hasn't he *already* demonstrated that he is UNABLE to do that?"

On this I disagree. Because we've only been together for 7 months. After 6 months a relationship generally gets more serious. For me, this 7 months was time for him AND me to discover if our relationship was worth fighting to build. I feel he's had enough time know to know if I am worth taking risks for (regarding his BUSINESS NOT M). So now, he has a chance to do that work with me.

Again, it's up to him to think about it and let me know. We're having an "Assessment Talk" which we've had through out the relationship. This one is to discuss the email and his thoughts on it.

Then for me it's Plan A (as much as I know y'all hate to hear that) till September and Plan B till December.

"You will not introduce him to your family..because as it now stands..this relationship is shamefull and you know it and you prefer to shroud and veil the realities until you can MAKE them appear to be what you would like them to be."

- Actually my family and friends ALL know about him and our situation. They think it's hard on both of us. They agree with my Plan A&B strategy. Not unanimously. But I've never kept it a secret.

I won't introduce him to my M and F because where I'm from that's something you only do with a fiance type person. And until he is fully available, he does not get the honour of being treated like a SIL by my family.

Don't feel guilty! Watch away LOL! I have a habit of watching things that happen in life in a way slightly separate from myself. I accept MY truths (as I don't actually believe in univeral ones), my lessons and blessings and keep striving to live as I feel is right for me.

I think if nothing else, it would be interesting to chart the progress of this particular relationship here, to see if it falls under the 95% category or indeed was something more meaningful.

I do pray. And I pray for his happiness and mine even if it's not together. I'm not do or die about our relationship surviving. If I'm do or die about anything it's my wellbeing through every decision I make in life. Lessons and blessings.

PS. I'm not saying the OW MUST DIE! LOL! I'm just talking about me and how I know I would respond. Noone has to like it and I'm not arguing whether or not it is right. It's just how I handle things.

Thanks for you lengthy post again. It was appreciated.

Did you look at the thread (link) I referenced way back on page 2? The one where an OW had been married to her affair partner for 19 years and then found out he was cheating? So, so, so much heartache there... and her guilt over the beginnings of her marriage... and the contributions of other posters, including myself, who put our stories out there... to warn... Did you hear the warning? Do you CARE?

I can't believe this thread is still going... so much harm and pain you cause(d) by posting this here.

I hope to God you aren't yanking our chain, here... I'm beginning to wonder, TRULY, what you want from us. (PS: I asked this before, also, and you said... what?... )

*EYEROLL*

Well since you talk about Plan A & B which I still stand by with what I said (it is for the BS, NOT OW),then you realize that in Plan A you need to "expose" this A to everyone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I will call. We've been emailing to exchange numbers.

Jay's mom, again me telling him "I need to come clean with your W" over rides his feelings or readiness to do this in the way that he thinks is best. POJA. Even if he's not doing it with me right now, I am with him till September.

He needs to do that. And contrary to a few opinions on here, I'm not scared of what she might say, or what I might find out. If I thought he was lying, I'd uncover it myself (and I have before. I researched some of what he told me about their business and how it tied them together in the public, and it panned out).

I am soooo sorry about your H past <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I remember being quite young and hanging out with a nice lady that turned out to be my dad's OW. I never really appreciated how awful this must have been for my mom till an ex (we were together for 3 years) showed me something 'special'). I'm sorry he took your DS around her and was dishonest.

From the bottom of my heart I do not want to pour salt in the wound of BS in MB.

And I am about 99.9% confident in SO. I'd bet money that he is honest. This is why I don't feel the need to push it any more than tell him my feelings and expectations.

If I find out he has lied to me ... I would be disappointed. I would want to know why. I would tell him it wasn't necessary. That he put a REAL friendship on the line with his lies. But I would forgive him. If his W confronted me revealing that he has lied I would apologise from the bottom of my heart and DISAPPEAR from their life. Disappointed, a little wiser but free in my heart that I did the best that I could with all that I knew.

I'm not self-deluding here. I know what our situation is. And I understand what must come of it in the near future. SO has been and still very much is worth a year of loving and being loved even if it doesn't end up in a marriage.

"Did you look at the thread (link) I referenced way back on page 2? The one where an OW had been married to her affair partner for 19 years and then found out he was cheating? So, so, so much heartache there... and her guilt over the beginnings of her marriage... and the contributions of other posters, including myself, who put our stories out there... to warn... Did you hear the warning? Do you CARE?

I can't believe this thread is still going... so much harm and pain you cause(d) by posting this here.

I hope to God you aren't yanking our chain, here... I'm beginning to wonder, TRULY, what you want from us. (PS: I asked this before, also, and you said... what?... ) "

New_Beginning - I hear, I care and no, I'm not yanking your chain. I didn't intend to post in a place that would cause harm. We obviously see the situation (necessarily) differently.

I am here, to chart my progress through this relationship, to learn from other's experiences on here. I want NOTHING from anyone.

You DON'T have to read this. And you DON'T have to post to me.

According to who, him? -- a cheating, lying MARRIED man. Good gawd!

no, we don't have to read or post to you, but it is like a train wreck- you can't help looking at the devastation and destruction.

Please realize this is a marriage building site. there are other sites that are set up for OW. www.gloryb.com is one of them.

Please go there.

Many of us who have posted to you are in recovery.

Use whatever decency you have and leave here. Can you imagine how it would be for a BS who has just found out their spouse is wayward to read your post justifying your illicit relationship?

Please, please go away.

When his divorce is final and you are married to him and have a Marriage to Build, come back. Until then, please go.

No resilient. According to me. About "your Gawd" ask a question, don't assume.

As much as you'd like to kid yourself into thinking you are not an OW, you are. You stated yourself in so many words throughout your thread you stand for "Survival of the Fittest -- regardless of who you tromp on".

You my dear, are a complete and utterly shameless PREDITOR.

Take a minute and look in the mirror.

Then breeze on back to where you belong, TOW. Its thattaway ------>>>>>>>>

You don't need to remind me that I don't have to read or respond to you... after many years here, I certainly know that already.

What you fail to realize is that this site, Marriage BUILDERS, is for folks wanting to build their marriages - current or future. You are not a newly engaged girl wanting to learn about marriage, or in a troubled marriage, or married. What marriage is there to build?

What troubles me most is that you are intelligent... so very articulate and bright... what in the he11 are you doing with a married man and then coming on a site for building marriages?

Not only that, this site is (sadly) mostly filled with those fighting against infidelity - current, past or protecting from future.

This is why I asked about yanking our chain. No intelligent person could read here while *in an affair* and think they wouldn't harm the community by posting about how wonderful the affair is...

Finally, if you really read what I've written to you thus far... I came from a place of understanding and compassion... clearly, you see what you want to see. I suspect the same is true in your affair.

Allsfair..

first of all, your screen name tells me a bit about you...alls fair in love and war right?

Well lemme tell you...I believe that is a lie.

I am 100 percent here committed to making darn sure that all BS here don't PROPEGATE THE LIE.

that we fight and win against the evil that is adultery.

you're fogged out hon. naive and fogged out.

My xh told the ow (both of em) that we never slept together...that we had no feelings...that it was drawn out b/c of our son...business...etc...when he had many false starts with me.

I divorced HIM> becuase of his lies. he did not present truth to the mistresses. Never did.

wanna know our story? we divorced. he married the preggo golddigger (who gave legal ultimatum to him)3 days after it was final.

she has never known one day of peace. he has continued cheating, he is unhappy, and he did not want the ow. he was forced to make sad choice and I had at that time, chosen to divorce him b/c of the horrid situation (ow deliberately got pregnant to force him off fence).

You sound tons like the youngster who hooked my xh...

your rationale why you wish to fight for a married man and probably somebody who's a dad also:
Your words hon:
"He has a social conscience and participates in community revival at home and abroad (If he had a conscience, he would not be having an affair...)
- He is a self made man, which I greatly admire.(YOU WANT HIS MONEY...HIS STABILITY)
- He is respectful and honest.(NOT TO HIS WIFE...AND REMEMBER, IF HE'LL DO IT WITH YOU, HE'LL DO IT TO YOU...honesty? come on girl.)
- He is good with children and is very close with his family (M, F, D from childhood relationship)(the kids don't like the mistress...THIS IS THE TRUTH...you're forever a homewrecker. Does A GOOD DAD OR MOM CHEAT AND RIP THEIR FAMILIES UP? A CHILD IS A COMMITTMENT...)
- He is the marrying kind. He did strive to make his marriage work. He was gutted that it didn't (I would be gone if he was abusive about his W)(WOW...THIS IS HUGE HONEY...HE IS THE MARRYING KIND...WHY? THE MAN IS MARRIED. NUFF SAID. AND IF HE ISN'T OVERTLY ABUIVE? LEMME TELL YA FOGGY CHICK, AN AFFAIR IS THE CRUELEST OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE YOU CAN INFLICT UPON SOMEBODY ELSE..D DAY WILL SHOW THE PAIN YOU ARE CAUSING...BOTH OF YOU ARE CAUSING. QUIT BEING STUPID AND NAIVE ABOUT THIS.)
- He loves me."

As you can see, Me, peach, have added in words of truth embedded into your fog. Please read and reread and see it for what it is.

If you are all you say you are, attractive, intelligent, (yet still undegreed at age 24)and the like, then GO AFTER A MAN WHO IS ATTAINABLE AND AVAILABLE AND WHO WILL MAKE YOU PROUD TO INTRODUCE TO OTHERS...how does living in the shadows feel? how will it feel to meet his family (maybe..that is if you ever really do)and have them behind your back roll their eyes and talk badly about you (my xh's family does to the ow..to both of them)...have friends of his and the wife also pretend when around you...have his kids know the truth and they will treat you accordingly..trust me on this one.

It's easier to have somebody you can have integrity, honesty, and fidelity with. Your lover loves you? Wow, he's committed to you? Wow. HOW ABOUT HIS COMMITTMENT TO HIS W? HIS RELUCTANCY TO DIVORCE? WHERE DO YOU REALLY FIT IN? I will tell ya hon.

You are viewed as a cute little piece of cake he enjoys on the side. Maybe a touch of frosting too. You're the chocolate to his wifey's vanilla. His wife meets his En's or else the man would ALREADY BE DIVORCED. If a man wants a divorce, really does, come ****** or high water he will get it. His reluctance is not about the money...it is about the fact YOU are a MISTRESS and he doesn't really want the blood on his hands of destroying his family. He'd rather have a half life with his wife, not being strong enough to MAN UP AND WORK ON HIS MARRIAGE and a niave and gullable mistress on the side to meet his sf needs...

Truth: AFFAIRS ARE FANTASY. Just ask my xh..who incidentally asked me out on a date last summer...and whom I turned down. When you get with that formerly married man...when you finally get the shack up apartment, he's filed for divorce, the family's ripped apart...what do you REALLY GET???HMMMM?

Let this veteran tell ya straight. You get bills. You get kids there some of the time...kids who DON'T WANT TO GET TYO KNOW YA BTW...kids sad and confused. You get to deal with a custody schedule. You get to have less entertainment money b/c your married boyfriend HAS TO PAY SPOUSAL AND CHILD SUPPORT b/c hey, he cheated, it's his fault...it's YOU'RE FAULT TOO...and you get to scrub toilets. You get morning breath. You get to wash clothes. The stolen moments of happiness, sf, and fantasy are gone forever.

Now if you had a single guy, you'd have more time to build a relationship rather than deal with kids, custody issues/wars, monies to the xw and kids...it's hard enough to deal wtih a budding relationship period...and when it's with a married man, you got all this crud on top of the basic stuff to deal with. Plus, you have shame. Which is in the end, the nail on your relationship's coffin.

My xh's wistress (whatI call her) called me in tears last summer after he cheated on her yet again. She called me saying that "she got what she deserved." said she was so sorry. that she is paying the price for wrecking my family and marriage. Me? Felt sadness and regret for her...but the money was what she was after all along. She wasn't in it for a family, she was in it for the money...so I am not sad for her. She cried to me this "Peach he has said to me that he'd be happy today had I NOT FORCED HIS HAND...that he MADE A MISTAKE WHEN HE GOT A DIVORCE...THAT HE WAS NOT READY FOR OUR RELATIONSHIP..." Thus, straight from the wistress' mouth (AND BTW...SHE IS YOUR AGE) that my xh is not happy, didn't want to marry her, and is regretting his affair marriage.

My xh makes stupid reasons up to call me. Two days ago, when it had been our 10 year anniversary, or would have been, he called me twice for mundane issues...with total sadness in his voice...I could hear it dripping over the phone...he was miserable. He was wishing for what could have been..but now will never be. And I can guaran-damn-tee you Ms. Mistress, that he wishes he'd have been with me celebrating..than in a miserable self created ****** with somebody who thought that living for the moment and taking his money was more important than seeing reality and fact for wht it is. And sadly? I got it. I changed. I became sexy, even more intelligent (got elected state prez of my med society), appear at least the same age now as the wistress is...so the xh lost alot...in the process of me getting single again, he lost an incredible and renewed and vibrant woman.

Aspire to what you truly want to be...get a career. Get out there after you graduate and live a little. I did. Then meet somebody SINGLE. Live in the light...do not live in forced shadows. GAIN RESPECT AND DIGNITY...give kids their parents...and DO NOT INTERFERE IN A MARRIAGE THAT YOU DO NOT BELONG IN. Live knowing your heart is clean, that you decided to do the right thing...and move on.

I won't post to you again.

There is not anything left for me to say.

Just get a real life please. It's waiting. Reality is waiting. The fantasy WILL DESTROY YOU IF YOU CONTINUE...and at such a young age. aS FOR ME? HMMM...I am seriously dating the guy I almost married..my college bf. A truly self made man...A SINGLE GUY...divorced with no kids...intelligent and attractive. A man of REAL INTEGRITY AND DIGNITY...somebody that makes me proud to be with. Somebody who values fidelity.

We're making a great go of things now.

But I will forever strive to help families in crisis here. And i will NEVER ENABLE AN INFIDEL. Families are being destroyed every day for selfishness and for the insanity spreading across this planet...it's called LIVING FOR THE MOMENT.

Go hang on another board if you want support. I am NOT HERE TO TEACH YOU EN'S. I am here to tell you the truth. You're treading on thin ground and you will fall and fall hard. You're on the edge of a very dangerous cliff. And if you choose to fall, it is nobody's fault of your own. I told ya the truth.

we are NOT gettijng through to this woman....she has convinced herself that her affair is okay....

like a WS, she is living in a FOG

also like we do to a WS who is justifing thier affair-we need to STOP ALL CONTACT with this person and let her live with the consequences of her choices

she is not worthy of our time or attention

MODERATOR: OUT OF RESPECT TO US, THE BS HERE..AND B/C OF THE INTENT OF THE POSTER (to continue and propegate her affair with a married man and father), PLEASE END THIS THREAD. Investigate and do what is required.

This is a MARRIAGE BUILDING SITE...WE ARE PRO FAMILIES HERE...WE ARE NOT PRO AFFAIR.

Yes, we can see how "important" she is to him. Not "important" enough to marry, but only "important" enough to get some free sex with no strings attached. At least a prostitute is smart enough to get paid, a who*e gets nothing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I thought you and him are out in the OPEN. You know, everyone knows and accepts you as a couple.

WOW .. I wonder why he has to hide you? Hmmm ....

Could it be he lies ... naaaahhh, not him, not a married man who has been seeking a divorce for TWO WHOLE YEARS without success. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Just Peachy - ONE thing only to say - They don't have children. This tells me you did not read anything prior to posting. Therefore, take no offense at my one line response.

Well, before I log off for the afternoon (since my H and his kids are almost home)... all I can say is this:

All is NOT fair... and if you haven't yet figured it out, you will.

And there is no such thing as a clean fight between a wife and a mistress. There's dirt everywhere... and it's all gonna land on you.

Good luck to you. You'll need it... You can't say you weren't warned.

Enough of this. This is a marriage building site. This thread has been locked.