Ending contact with a lover after an affair is absolutely essential to recovery. Recovery will not take place until that happens.

The reason I am starting this thread is that we seem to have many people here who think it is ok to go along with foolishness like "professional" contact or other somesuch nonsense. It is NOT. Calling an affair some new cute name does not change its nature. If I call a baloney sandwich a dog, it is not going to magically become a DOG. I PROMISE YOU IT WILL ALWAYS BE A BALONEY SANDWICH.

If you don't believe that ending all contact is absolutely essential, I would invite you read some of the threads on this forum of on-again, off-again affairs because the BS did not heed this warning. And it usually due to a desire to take the easier, softer way.

As patriot once said, "conflict avoidance always causes MORE conflict." That is the truth in this matter.

One cannot FORCE a WS to quit a job, but one CAN enforce his own boundaries and insist that no contact take place. Without it, recovery is impossible anyway.

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


Mimi wrote: Check this out from the How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS..one of my favorite pieces of reading material...

p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Thank You Mel!

Thanks Mel, and I totally agree.

A personal story...
We are nearing 3 years d-day and no contact from a 2 1/2 mo PA with a rep in my H's industry, but not working at the same company. Another tidbit...he was not in love with her (not sure about her) but love or not, NC is still essential and my H knows and respects this and that makes me love and respect him...

Anyway, back to my little blurb...
The other day he comes home and says, "guess who showed up at the office today to hand deliver her resume?"

WHAAAAAAT?????

He was not in the office, but his two bosses were, who are aware of what happened and graciously supported him through this as they saw the massive effort we put forth to recover our marriage. (OW and H divorced) Aparantly she had lost her job and was "canvassing" all the companies in the industry with her resume. Whatever...hand delivering to my H office???

Okay, my point to this story is this...my H said, without any prompting from me: "They would never hire her in a million years, but I want you to know that if for some strange reason they did, I would quit the very same day."

And I know he means it and I love that about him and that he said that to me, even 3 years later! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

NO CONTACT ever!!!!

Blessings,
Glad

Mel-

Question...but first I want to point out that I AGREE with you (and SH) on this COMPLETELY...NC is the ONLY hope for saving your marriage.

You said:

How does the BS actually implement and do this WITHOUT insisting that they quit the job? If you know contact will occur at work...then how do you enforce this boundary (or insist that they enforce it) without requiring that they leave the work place?

I totally agree that this needs to happen...but I'm asking for how should a BS practically apply this? What, exactly, should they say/do to make this happen?

Thanks!

Owl, I know of no way to enforce this boundary WITHOUT insisting the WS leave the job. One can't end contact unless they end contact. That would be impossible.

Ml, thanks for citing the article. And thanks for pointing to the seriousness of ending contact. Isn't it possible to do so without terms like the "foolishness of"? Is that an LB? Sounds like a mother talking to a blog of her children. The material alone points to the facts allowing the reader to understand it without an LB. Seems Dr Harley trust that the reader can comprehend it without such.

***How does the BS actually implement and do this WITHOUT insisting that they quit the job? If you know contact will occur at work...then how do you enforce this boundary (or insist that they enforce it) without requiring that they leave the work place?***

Hi, Owl.

You do have to set the boundary that you, the BS, will not remain in a marriage as long as the WS is willing to hurt you by remaining in the workplace with OP.

If they refuse to protect you, and place working with OP over the marriage, then the BS has no choice but to go to Plan B in order to remove themselves (at least temporarily) from the marriage.

That's how you enforce a boundary. It's not an ultimatum - WS can stay in the job if they want, because you can't stop them - but it is a boundary.

If WS will not remove themselves from the OP, the BS will remove themselves from the marriage by way of Plan B.

And unfortunately, that's usually what it takes.
Mulan

LLG, I am not giving a script but am outlining a general principle. The dialogue will be up to the BS to figure out on her own.

Ml,
The LB I meant to mention above is the DJ.

Thanks, Mel.

As you know, I'm one of those that was in the category of "people who think it is ok to go along with foolishness like "professional" contact or other somesuch nonsense."

Didn't take long for it to quickly turn back into non-professional contact.

It's not a fun lesson to learn.

Amen. Which is why I quit my job and am working for less money at the job I have now.

It was not worth the pain and strain on the marriage.

Oh, it never occurred to me you were accusing ME of lovebusting YOU. huh? I am not trying to fill your lovebank, LLG. I am sure it is possible to do it without terms like "foolishness" but since I think it is foolishness, I will say it that way. I like to say it how it is.

Is this a TEXAS whoopazz thread or WHAT !!!!!!!!

YEEEEEEEEEHaWWWWWWWWWW

Pep

No left coasters or silly foreigners on my thread!!!! GET OFF!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

In your opinion, how long can I wait for the WW to commit to the NC before I start calling/emailing everyone close to her and me.

*boo-hoo*

If she won't end contact, then I would expose the affair. I wouldn't wait for that to happen.

Melodylane - You have perfect timing on this post..

I was just going to pose this question - In order to recover your M - does all contact w/A partner(s) need to end???

Briefy - 3+ years after D-day, and a letter from my attorney, WH is seeing that D is a "real probablity" - even though in his words "he was never going to leave me". One of his MOW works for us - and due to his utter stupidity and lack of educating himself in the how, why, etc. of A's -I think he believes he can just walk back into my life and resume where we left off - and she's not going to be a constant pain in my heart.

From this site and books I've read - I know thru educating myself that ALL CONTACT MUST END...so, I refuse to even think about reconcilling without NC. Yet, I feel guilty that I am still shuting him out and refuse to bend on this issue.

An example of how not enforcing NC and how it leads back to A's.

WH was in an A w/a MW before I met him - 14 years ago. Her BS found out and they ended the A. Well, over 3 years ago my WH contacted her and again they started an A. Do I believe contact ever ended??? and 12 years later he has the power to pick-up the phone, call her and they just end up in bed again??? ****** - NO...I believe they stated in contact possibly sexual contact but they were more descrete and it was frequent for the fear of getting caught.

So this MOW poor BS had to relive this flippin nitemare all over again - with the same man...When my WH called her whether it was 3 years ago or right after they got caught the first time - had she have hung up or had he never called her again - many of us would have not suffered from their A again.

So I guess I've answered my own question - I MUST DEMAND NO CONTACT - no matter the consequences to her or him. If he cannot or will not adhere to this then I must continue to move forward and away from my WH's destructive and disrespectful actions.

Agree??

Agree! Nuf' said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Great thread, Melody. If exposure is the weapon to smash an adultery, NC is the bulwark that keeps it at bay.

Way back when...my H. did not/would not demand NC. After discussing it he told me that he was afraid that demanding NC would make me resent him. He was trying to let me figure it out on my own.

Guess what. All the while I was MAD at him for NOT demanding NC!!!

When I finally quit my job was when we finally rounded a corner.

Ml,

I never asked you to. However it would seem to me that the principles that Dr Harley mentions would apply in relations not only to our mates but to others that we have interatcion with as well. Wouldn't you say?

So are you saying that you choose not to act with respect when corresponding to me or my fellow posters?

LLG, as I said before, I am not trying to fill your lovebank so no, Marriage Builders principles do not apply to general conversation with others. Nor have I said anything disrespectful. Foolishness is foolishness and it's not "disrespectful" to say so. Good grief...

Great thread Mel. As usual you are right on the money with MB Principles.

Keep posting.

WOL

Ml,



As I said I never asked for you to fill my love bank. To me, not DJing is a simple courtesy. However it isn't for me to press my opinion on you. If I don't want to read post that are motherly, rude and disrespectful, I reserve the right to continue overlooking whatever you post. So much for that.

LLG, if you are that sensitive, then you shouldn't read my posts at all. That is just silly to get offended over the word "foolishness."

If you attempt to inflict your hypersensitive standards on others you are going to find that disappointment will be your lot in life, I assure you. You have to accept that others are simply not as sensitive as you and understand that you can't change them. You only have control over yourself, not others.

LLG-

There's no benefit in attempting to point out to Mel that her posts come across this way...she's very much aware that many people respond the exact same way to her posts...she simply doesn't care.

Your best bet is to either read her posts and gleam the very useful information that she provides out from the tactless and judgemental comments that she makes, or simply ignore her comments altogether.

I value her advice greatly...but have learned to ignore anything she says that isn't directly aimed at solving the problem.

the opposite of wise is foolish- as we ALL know it is not wise for someone to continue contact with the op.

why is it wrong to say that it is foolish to allow contact- we all know it is not wise.

how the heck is that an LB or a DJ?

Somedays I feel I have entered the twilight zone on this forum. Can you believe all this teeth gnashing is over the use of the word "foolishness?"

Owl, you mean they come across that way TO YOU. You don't speak for others, only yourself.

You are right, there is absolutely no benefit in trying to point out that you don't like my style. Because I do not care if you approve of me. I DO like my style and that is what is matters.

My style is an expression of my personality, just as yours is an expression of yours. Your dislike of mine is your own personal problem that has nothing to do with me.

One man's idea of "rude" is anothers idea of forthrightness. And I am sorry, but anyone who believes it is "rude" to use the word foolishness is overly sensitive and has other serious issues.

I will just say again, that if you believe others should live up to your personal standard of expression, you are very arrogant and I would predict that disappointment will be your lot in life. Others are not obliged to live up to your personal standards of expression, but to THEIR OWN, as it suits them.

You can't control others, Owl; you can only control yourself.

I agree...it's not wise to allow contact to continue.

But, there is a world of difference in how someone will respond if you call them 'unwise' vs. 'foolish'. Both mean the same thing...but calling them unwise is much more likely to NOT provoke them or make them feel attacked then calling them foolish.

It's all in how you say it.

I can tell someone that they are a major PITA...or I can tell them that they're difficult to work with, and that they might consider changing they're behavior so that it creates less stress for themselves and others. Both mean the same thing...but one is going to trigger a fight, and the other should cause them to think before they respond.

This is tact.

Hence my use of the word 'tactless'. As Mel is fond of phrasing things..."It's not wrong to call someone tactless...it's wrong to BE tactless".

You're right Mel...and like you, I'm going to feel free to continue posting exactly what I feel and say. If you don't like it, that's fine as well.

We'll get along just fine! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel,

Ok, sure.

Owl, lol.

Hopefully, some day you will clue into the fact that others are entitled to do the same. And will accept that you can't control the posting styles of others. You can only control yourself! That lesson seems to have eluded you thus far. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

RMAN123
If i could be so bold, I'll answer in one word:
YESTERDAY!!!!!!!

Not at all Mel. I've LEARNED the lesson...which is why I'll feel free to post exactly what I want the way I want.

Well, I feel the need to throw in my unasked for .02.

TOO OFTEN, people here get caught up with the tone and not the message of something said. The real issue IMVHO is not HOW something is said but WHAT is said. It has been **MY** perception here that the most soothing and "kind" and "supportive" people here are also the most enabling and in doing this in the end give far more destructive feedback than positive. Just my thoughts, perhaps you all disagree. That is ok too.

Lem

And here we go again, trying to dictate the posting style of others. Owl. Can you not see how arrogant that is? It is not my GOAL to be "TACTFUL;" it is YOURS. You arrogantly assume that everyone has the same goal as you. THEY DON'T.

Owl, I personally do not APPROVE of your posting style. I think you tend to be wimpy, hypersensitive and ineffective at times. But, you know what? That is your right to be as wimpy and ineffective as you choose in your posting style because that is an expression of YOUR personality.

I would never be so arrogant to suggest that you ADOPT a posting style that suited MY personality instead of yours. Now, wouldn't that be silly? Wouldn't that be arrogant?

So how about this, Owl. You post according your own taste and I will post according to mine. And I won't pretend like mine is BETTER than yours, only that yours is DIFFERENT. Now, wouldn't that be the TOLERANT thing to do?

The long knives of the Sensitivity Cops are out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

owl,

As well you should, but, what happened to the original Q about NC?
You asked how that was possible when a job change was not possible. On the other hand, Dr H has clearly stated that ,in spite of career changes or any other sacrifices, NC must be achieved!!
Note the exclamation points.
There is simply now way around this, and it is MVHO, you are engaged in this silly discussion in order to avoid the real Q.
How can I have my M and still have my H not quit his job in order to avoid all contact?
You can fool yourself if you want, but in your heart you know the real answer.
I earnestly hope your M is more important than the, perhaps, comfortable living your H is providing. In the end it will pale in comparison to your love and M to your H.
God Speed,
J

Ml

I didn't see your other post, For me, foolishness was only one word I noted from the post, your overall manner of speaking is judegmental, presunming, disrespectful and just unkind.

Yes some people do have different ways of viewing what is being said. One person may feel that you are straightening them out, I guess. I find, that you seem very legalistic. I guess it is your way. The message for me is much better said when it is simply stating the facts and nothing more.

Why does Dr Harley state in his material not to make disrespectful judgements in the first place? Or do we reason that we only act this way with our spouses? We only stop DJing with them? Why does he seem to point to us not to come off as if we know better than someone else, not to come off as if the other person is unthinking and unable to figure a matter on their own?

This is a long time coming for you. You were aggressive with me in your post to me when I first came on MB, as if I did something to hurt you when I was trying to deal with the my M. So not only was I dealing with my own hurt but the person seeming to act agreessive with me because I didn't do what you said when you said it.

Anyway, as I said every so often you have a good point. But just as your signature says of the scripture in it about heeding to the wise I can't help but wonder if the Lord is trying to get through to you. Often times you seem to act like one singing the song of fools. But it'd be remiss of me to sing with you, wouldn't it?

So I call a truce.

LLG, I am sorry you have issues with posts, but like I said earlier, that is your problem, not mine. I would suspect you very easily take offense and feel entitled to NOT to be offended. You have no such entitlement, though.

As a result, you believe you can dictate the posting style of others to accommodate your own level of hypersensitivity. Unfortunately, you can't.

As you have probably discovered, you can only change yourself, LLG. You can't change others. If you are so easily offended by my posts, then you should put them on ignore.

Let's keep this all in perspective. All this teeth gnashing and great OFFENSE is a over a rematk, directed to NO ONE in particular, that it is foolishness to go along with workplace contact. [and it IS foolishness] That is way off into loonyville to become offended by such a remark.

Personally, I think it is good to have different types of posters on here - who post with different "tones" or whatever you want to call it.

The reason: different people respond to different things.

I for one like the way ML posts - I also like the way many others do too (including Owl and LLG).

But, I will have to say that ML's have probably been the most effective in getting me to do things that I needed to do - but in many ways didn't want to do. Her persistence helps too. Some people need to be "knocked upside the head" (me for one) and ML's posts do a great job of that. For example, she actually called me a "wimpy guy" one time and also told me she gave up on me.

So, as the famous "motorist" once said: "can't we all just get along" (does anyone remember who said that?)

I would like to see anyone put forth an argument that it is NOT foolishness to go along with workplace contact and expect to ever recover from an affair.

Instead of crying and gnashing teeth over the WORD foolishness, can we address the SUBJECT? Namely, does anyone really believe it is NOT foolish to condone continuing contact at work?

Foolishness : Lacking or exhibiting a lack of good sense or judgement.

Sounds about right to me.

The topic of this thread was "No Contact"

NOT

"How About Critiquing My Posting Style"

Back to Marriage Building!!!

If you don't like the way a member posts--USE your "Ignore this poster" feature!!!!!