I am creating a specific thread for this topic but I have another thread that Longhorn has been giving me advice on about my overall sitch....

I have a question because you guys are in a position that counter's mine. I am husband that wants custody or atleast 50/50 custody of my 3 girls (6/8/11) So I am fully engaged in their lives and when I realized that my wife was just going along with parenting, the only time they have breakfast before school is when I fix it and I fix eggs or pancakes. If they are hungary they usually fix themselves a bag of dry cereal to take in the car. So I work 60 hours a week and my wife works 15 hours a week

I come home / before we separated and would do things like vaccum or laundry or clean the toilets.

Now I am a service oriented person I like doing things for people so that is how I was trying to show that I cared..

So our girls are in private school that we both agree on but we are moving to another school - again we agree - now we have been talking about me taking the girls and picking them from school each day - its on my way to and from work and she is taking a new "her dream job" but it goes from 3:30 to 8PM almost every night. She also will work 1 weekend a month...

I am the primary breadwinner - which doesn't matter over custody but it matters since we have been sepearated for 2 months and she had said she would get a job that provide 40 hours a week so she could have her indepenence. We were also to put our house on the market - she has the paper weeks for 4 weeks never signed it.

So my question is if your H was a caring father and would do good things for you kids even if you were separated/divorcing what would you think of that?

I have issues with some of her actions and how she does mothering for herself and will let the kids operate on their own for a lot of the time.

So I have consulted a lawyer and he actuall says I am in a very good position to get 50/50 or sole custody... I am also not wanting the divorce so I am only doing the custody thing to get back into the home so I can be with the family on a day and night basis... Even separated I see the kids almost every day.

I just wanted to applaud you~for being active in the lives of your daughters.

I can't answer your question in full, because the WS in my sitch is not being active in parenting (though if you'd talk to him, you'd think the world was his kids). For me, it would kill me if he had sole custody. Because he is not actively seeking their best interest right now. One day, though, if he ever came back to earth and wanted to be a more active parent, I would more than welcome him into their lives. Not full custody, but as much as he'd like to see them.

But if he was a good parent and really there for the boys--something that is hard when he is all about OW--then I would want what is best for the boys--both parents in their lives--so joint might be okay. But the mama bear inside me would still have a lot to swallow and a lot to cry about--I'd miss having them around all the time.

But I am not your wife, and I don't have a spouse who would even desire full or 50/50 custody.

I have come to look at parenting as what is in the best interests of the child and their rights.

A child has a right to know both parents equally. As long as there are no safety issues involved with either parent.

50/50 I have seen work very well.


I must congratulate you on being an active parent. I dont know in the States , but do you attempt mediation before the court?

Max

During our previous separation, H and I had a pretty even parenting plan (as even as possible seeing as I homeschool my children). At first, H stayed in the house with the kids, I came everyday and stayed with them 10-12 hours a day, until H came home from work or wherever. Then I would leave, and he kept the kids at night.

Later, when his GF didn't like our house sharing, H had the kids 3.5 nights and I had them 3.5 nights (we alternated Wednesdays). On weekdays, he brought them to me on his way to work and picked them up on his way home. I did have more time with the kids since I had 3.5 nights plus all the schoolday hours. But if the kids had gone to school, I would have been very comfortable staying in the same school district and doing a true 50/50 split with no money changing hands.

Now that we are separated again, WH does not spend nearly as much time with the kids. He has them every Sat-Sun and every other Friday.

With your wife working those hours, I can't imagine that she would rather the girls be alone or with a sitter than with you. Document everyday about the times you are with the kids and best of luck to you and your family.

It wouldn't matter to me in terms of primary custody. My husband could be Mr. Rogers straight out of PBS... and he'd still have to step over my stone cold, dead body to take my kids away from me.

I carried them within my body, nurtured them at my breast. I've got the scars and stretchmarks that go along with all that. My body will never be the same, and that's okay with me. It was a good trade.

I gave up a promising career in order to care for them through their early development. Currently, I make about a fourth of what my husband makes. My career will never recover. Again, I consider it a good trade.

I made my sacrifices, and because I did, I'm 'in tune' with my children. I know their moods, when they're tired, when they're hungry, what makes them happy or sad. I know EXACTLY when they're ready for new developmental challenges. I know them intuitively with the innate skill of 'Mother'. Their heads could be made of glass... because I SEE the hamster on the wheel at all times. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
They are the light of my life, my purpose for being...here in a sea of chaos.

It's possible that you might be able to force your wife to accept you back by threatening to take her children from her. If I thought somebody could do that to me.... heck yeah, I'd play the game. But I'd never truly love or trust a person who would do that. I'd never accept that person into my life in any meaningful way. I'd just be stalling for time until I could extricate myself from the situation and still keep my babies with me.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make her drink. Who knows? You might be able to MAKE your wife remain in the marriage. But you can't make her love you and you can't make her forgive you.

viking...

We have a pretty lengthy document(e-book) regarding fathers winning custody that we purchased a while back for another poster, we would be glad to pass along to you if you would like...just email Mr. W and I at the addy in my signature...

Mrs. W

viking, it sounds very good to me. Fathers are just as capable as mothers of raising children. Mothers are not entitled to sole custody anymore than are fathers.

I wouldn't use that as a "threat," but I most certainly would follow through and seek primary custody. After all, you are better able to take care of them financially. Many fathers today do get primary custody and do an excellent job raising their children.

Well that is a very good question. I have gone through this very heart breaking and terrible thing. I was very young when I married my first H. When we split up, WE decided that HE would have physical custody. We had joint custody and joint guardianship. BUt he had physical custody. It killed me to do it.

BUT, I was also realistic. I thought of the children FIRST! NOt my own needs. Hey that's what Moms do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
It was NOT a scarfice. Becasue when you sacrifice, it can build resentment. Sacrifice according to Dr Harley is NOT a good action to use. (Can you tell I just finished re-reading negotiations and Freelaoders, etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My XH was and is a VERY loving father. He was a workaholic to some extent BUT the kids KNEW he was there for them. He had the means to have a live-in housekeeper AND me when He was on business trips etc.

My XH and I made a MUTUAL decison that we would ALWAYS present a unified front to the kids. And that IF and when we disagreed, we would work it out away from the children. No playing one against the other, etc.

THat was over 20 years ago. And MY XH and I are still great friends.

That being said. I am in the midst of a terrible D from a serial adulterer whose actions are alwasy for himself only. While he used to be a great Dad. NOw? Under no circcumstances would I even allow him to be alone with DD. He is not trustworthy. So in this sitch over my dead body would he get custody. He has no say in any of this. I have sole custody with DD14. I am her sole guardian. In this very different sitch, he has shown himself to be nothing but a sperm donor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

BUt I must ask, WHY are you going for custody ? IF it is the best interests of the child, go for it. If it is just part of your plan to FORCE your wife to stay married. FOrget it. The children should NEVER be used as pawns or go betweens in your problems with your W. And THEY will FEEL it.

Please make sure you think of the children outside of your R problems.

So my wife was having an EA and wants her cake and eat it too and is fence sitting.

So I am living out of the house because I was asked to leave for her space and time... found out later it was so she could continue her EA. Now I can't move back in because of the laws... So I have to pay for two households and still pay all her bills... So I have explained to her that because I am paying for two households we are going to start missing bills and eventually we will have serious financial problems... so I asked her if she would swap with me, allow me in the house and she would move into her parents until we figure out what we are doing... I also offered to co-habitate with her but all suggestion to protec the family assets have been rejected...

Now I have been plan a it for a while, I am good guy. But my wife is in a fog and has done a lot of rewriting of history and is very angery at me for exposing her EA.

So I have been an equal parent but she has a real selfish streak and she plays the kids as pawns in her attacks on me.

So the only way I can get into the house and get our finances straight is takeing custody and have a court order for me to move back in.

If I had custody she would have 100% access to the kids..

Also I have made a promise to myself that I will not have any relationship while the girls are young, so I am going to committ to years of focusing on the girls so I don't mess up again.

I am a father that now has full legal and custodial custody. My son is thriving in this stable environment..
Do what is best for the children and fight. When it comes to the courts, dads are up against the odds... I have been there... but you can come out on top if the judge sees it is in the kids best interests. One way to find out, if the children are old enough... ask them how they feel about your wishes. they should have some say.

Well VikingRulers's wife mads a pretty bad trade when she elected to screw around wouldn't you say. She's an unfit mother wouldn't you say?

Why would being an unfit wife/husband automatically make an unfit mother/father?


Unless there is a physical or psychological danger to the child, a child has the right to know both parents equally.

Max

LJ, I think there must be some things you missed in Viking's other threads. Did you not see he's been doing the overwhelming amount of parenting for a long time? Does that not make a slight difference? If you read between the lines in Viking's posts, you'll also see a WW who wants only to do the fun things with her daughters but doesn't do needful things for them like cooking them breakfast. That's boring. She doesn't like it.

Also, there are any number of threads out here where WW's have absolutely abandoned their children in order to be with the OM, and vice versa. Not every woman has the same feelings toward her children you do. That you would fight tooth and nail for your children is commendable.

However, that you interpret what Viking is doing as a malicious “threat” is inexplicable to me and insulting to Viking. Frankly, I don’t understand that attitude. What evidence do you have Viking is not the more nurturing parent in that marriage? Lady, I think you owe the man an apology. I hope you wrote your words in haste and did not see the negativity in them because they sure seem to be ill considered and unfortunate.

Mad1, it’s because when a spouse values a relationship with an extra person in the marriage so highly, that wayward spouse is taking time, affection, energy, and love due the children and spouse and giving them to another person. The wayward spouse sets up a climate of stress, anger, lies, deceit, indescribable pain, and betrayal. Occasionally, the children become exposed to situations involving contact with thoroughly unsavory OPs. How about the health problems generated in the home because wayward spouses think nothing of exposing themselves...and their families...to STDs of all kinds.

Such a person is a terrible role model for children, don’t you think? Children learn from what they see and they see so much. You bet. A wayward spouse is most definitely a bad mother or father, simply because of what they are.

Any parent in an affair lies and sacrifices everything including their children to feed their addiction. Nuff said.

Wow, Ladyjane...

I am a FWW who will readily admit that I was a completely unfit mother while I was in my affair...no question about it...I could tell you what I consider horror stories about just how very unfit that I was...my head was elsewhere, and that was neither fair or safe for my DD...And YES, it would have killed me to lose custody of her, but if I am 100% honest, it was Mr. W that had her best interests at heart, certainly not me, at the time. At that time, I planned on moving myself and my DD 750 miles away from Mr. W...how would that have been fair to him? What in the world did he do to have to lose custody of his daughter? Just because I was the pregnant one who gave birth to her, does NOT make her any more mine than his...she is half him and half me...but you seem to imply that because we are the ones that bare the physical scars of childbirth that that somehow automatically entitles us to be the custodial parent...that simply is NOT the case as I see it...Last spring Mr. W fully intended to fight for sole custody, and it is my opinion that he should have and would have be awarded that if it would have come to it...

I will also tell you that when I was full of fog that we had a conversation about this, and he told me then that he would not allow me to move that far away with our daughter...and I shot Foggy Venom his way, by saying something to the effect of, "Well fine then, I guess I am just trapped, but I will HATE you forever, if I am forced to stay married to you!" Mr. W then stated his boundary to me, which was, and is, "I refuse to be in a loveless marriage." Ladyjane, when my fog lifted I was able to see what an incredibly amazing man that I am married to...one that despite societal norms would have done everything in his power to make certain of the well being of OUR daughter...Do you know what that further tells me? That he truly loves me...our daughter is a part of both of us-him loving her the way he does is him loving me...There was NOTHING he could do if I chose to continue to destroy myself, even though it was killing him to watch, but he would have fought til his very last breath to make sure that I didn't take our daughter down with me...I see that as nothing short of heroic...what a great daddy, what a great husband, what a great MAN!!!

Ladyjane, perhaps your perspective is a bit off here, because you are taking this too personally... If I remember correctly you are a BS, right? Think for a moment if you were a male BS...one, such as viking that has been a wonderful father...WHY, should he be deprived of his children based on a very poor life choice that his WW has made? Especially when she isn't even do basic things like cooking breakfast for them...Why should he be forced to suffer more? I don't know viking's whole story, but from what I gather, he made the decision to move out BEFORE he fully understood the anatomy of an affair and had gotten MB advice...so when you look at it that way he was pretty much forced out of his own home through the manipulation of his FOGGED OUT WW...He wouldn't be in the position to seemingly have to "force" himself back in if it weren't for her actions...I do NOT think he should be torn apart for doing what I most definitely feel is the right thing here...Can you honestly tell me that it is fair for him to be paying for 2 households, putting himself under immense financial strain and also not to get to see his children as often as he possibly can??? All the while she is carrying on an adulterous affair in the marital home and getting to be the custodial parent...HOW IS THAT FAIR??? And you think it's unfair of viking to FORCE her to do anything??? REALLY??? To me it is glaringly clear that she is the one that has FORCED all this unpleasantness on everyone in the first place-and hey, she's free to go, just without the marital home or the children, and those are what you call CONSEQUENCES!!!

VIKING, YOU GO GOOD SIR, YOU ARE MOST DEFINITELY DOING THE RIGHT THING...No question about it!

Lastly, Dr. Harley suggests using children as magnets to attract a spouse back to the marriage...I know that he has a good reason for suggesting that...I am a prime example of that, in fact...

Mrs. W

yup longhorn.. I know the cruelty adultery inflicts on all...all too well.

I am more concerned about the blanket statement.

Not all wayward spouses are bad parents.

They do, do a lot of nasty creepy things...but not all of them.


People have affairs for many reasons, some even include finding an exit( affair) to protect their kids.

Max

ah. but if they were protecting their kids they wouldn't be having an affair. Are you seriously suggesting the only way out of an abusive relationship is adultery?

nope didnt day that at all

I said people have affiars for many reasons.

one was an exit affair.


I am now studying again to enter a hopefull career in child protection.

I do not want to enter that arena biased.

Basing my future findings on emotions is something I can not afford.

Max

OK Very good Max, but like I said, there are other less cruel and heartless ways out of a bad marriage than an affair. An affair is the most selfish act of betrayal a parent can perpetrate on their spouse and their children. The affect on all is devastating. A person in an affair is not a fit parent by definition. Hope that's not too biased and unobjective for you.

I agree bigK that affairs are cruel.

Lets just agree to disagree eh?, coz I ain't budging on my opinion.

Max

Thanks for everyone perspective....

I don't want to paint my wife into too bad if a light, she does do things for the girls but, for instance when I go over the dish's are piled in the sink, now i use to do it and get it done... but now I am getting the girls to do chores, which she could have done but didn't. So 1) I am not just doing things to get them done 2) I am trying to get the girls to do their share of responsibiltie

I continue find myself putting my wife on a pedistal and forget the things she doesn't do and think of only positive. I told LH that she I initialize that well my wife has different priorities she was focused on the kids and doing things with them to help develope them and be a good mom, but I took the blinder's off and said well what about the other things. So prioroties me that you do the high priorities first and THEN the low priorities, well she has a real problem of getting to the low priorities.

So I love my wife, but I have to protect my family - when I say that my wife gets upset, but that is what iam doing.

So I will be seeing my lawyer sometime this week to see what options I have, their may be options that I can get back into the house without taking custody, but I she has also threatened me with taking the kids with her if I did get someone back into the house.

By the way the 3rd day after I left to give her space, Her, the kids and the OM went to the park and fished and road bikes....

Now I have to make sure people know that I had slept with with oneone about 2 years ago - a prostitute - because I was faced with no affection for years from my wife. Now she is not having a PA but has about 2 EA's in the past 9 months. She has been out of our marriage mentally for that time.

No, I wouldn't say that. I've seen nothing to suggest that this lady is a bad mom.

Viking asked a question, and I answered it as honestly as I could. I understood the question to be about a mother's perspective on giving up primary custody of the children. I can't speak for other women, but THIS mom wouldn't do it. I'd fight it all I could, and if I got boxed in, I'd play his game 'til I could extricate myself. But under NO CIRCUMSTANCES would I ever give up my kids.


When did I say he was a bad parent? I think what I said was that as a mother, it wouldn't matter to me how good my counterpart was... I would still never give up primary custody of my kids. That's me. I don't speak for everyone, just myself. I'm the 'mother bear' type, that's all.

But I'll grant you that in terms of being a 'husband', I don't share your same view after reading through all the information. I see Viking as a FWH, who after breaking his vows of marriage, is attempting to force his wife to honor hers. I see her as a BS. And I don't think it's fair that just because he's really, really sorry....she should just have to 'get over it' and accept him back.

I've been VERY clear that I don't condone EAs. My husband's EA was extremely painful to me. But I'll tell you, if he hadn't shown sincere remorse and if he hadn't fully supported me in whatever decision I made afterward concerning my ability to remain in the marriage... I'd have surely divorced him out-of-hand. In my mind, marriage is a contract. When one partner breaks the vows, he breaks the "contract".

And I don't see a BS as obligated to forgive the transgression. So, I don't see the wisdom in prodding a BS with the pointy end of the stick. If it were me, that would only make me come out swinging.

Isn't it possible that we do Viking a bit of a disservice not to let him know that there are different perspectives? We don't all view the situation in the same way. We all speak from our own perspective, and I'm just sharing mine. There's nothing accusatory here.

Viking's in a tough spot, and he seems an honest enough guy who has admitted his mistakes. Personally, I don't hold it against him.... but then again, I don't have to be married to him either. All I can do for him is to try to empathize, not just with him but with his wife too. She's not here to tell her side of the story afterall. But if I use my own perspective and try to 'walk a mile' in her shoes, I would be feeling very forced and manipulated right now.

So, I think it's a shame not to share different perspectives with him. He could be missing opportunities to find true reconciliation. His wife is still talking to him. She's still sharing her hopes and dreams for the future. There still seems to be some hope for their marriage to survive. I honestly think that force or manipulation could ruin all that.

His wife isn't a marriage-builder. She can't be expected to adhere to the program. She's not going to understand what he's trying to do. Like EVERYONE else who is living their own experience, she sees it through her own lens, not her husband's. I think it's highly possible that she might feel victimized because that's how I would feel if I was in her position. Is it right for her to feel that way? Is is wrong? It doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, her perception is her truth... and that's the mindset that Viking must deal with. If she feels victimized or bullied, then her status as a victim will color everything else he says or does no matter how sincere his efforts are.

He could win the battle but lose the war. Because in the end, he wants a wife that loves him and WANTS to be with him.... not one who is just tolerating him and biding her time until she can be rid of him.


You're right about my perspective as a BS. My husband had an EA a little over 2 years ago, internet pornography, and full-on midlife crisis. It wasn't pretty, but you know... this far down the pike in recovery, I don't really see myself as a BS anymore. It's more like the memory of a particular life experience more than something that's active in my internal view.

I don't have any vested interest in Viking's situation, so I can't really take it personally. It just seems a shame to me that he might possibly lose the opportunity to repair his family dynamic. Having experienced recovery in my own marriage, I just like sharing that with folks, and helping them along if I can. That's my only interest here. But to do that, I have to be honest in what I think. Otherwise, I'm just placating and validating but not offering a real opinion.

I absolutely agree with you also, Mrs. W, that fathers have the potential to make great primary caregivers when they choose to do so. And you're right that a WS doesn't always give the appropriate attention to the children's best interest. Unfortunately, BOTH of these good folks have a WS history to deal with that has caused damage to the family dynamic, so what then?


I happened to catch a post by Viking on another website a day or two before her moved out. I told him at the time he'd be better off to work it from the inside, but I'm guessing he may have felt committed to proceeding with the separation. Having made that decision though, I think if I was his wife, I would expect him to uphold it as a matter of keeping his word. Again, that's just me trying to 'walk a mile'.

I do think that there's hope for negotiation here though. The financial situation seems to demand that there be some problem-solving done very soon. I imagine his wife might be motivated to preserving the family's lifestyle, even if she won't agree to receive him back as a husband yet.

Honestly, I think there are one of two things that keep a woman in an rocky marriage. One is financial security, the other is love. I think maybe BOTH of these elements are at work here. Certainly, she likes her children to have the best lifestyle possible. But I think there's still love here too. She's still talking to him. She's still allowing him into the inner circle. And it's been two or three years since his last incident of infidelity. I have to wonder if she must've been trying to find a way to forgive him during that time.

I have a friend who stayed in it for two years after her husband cheated. In her situation, it really was love that motivated her to try for so long. She wanted to make it work.... but in the end, her husband couldn't regain her trust.

You know, in talking to her and comparing our experiences, my husband did everything right, and hers did everything wrong. My husband opened the door to my cage. He reassured me at every turn. He would've done ANYTHING to make it right and make me happy again, even if that meant letting me go.

My friend's husband was truly sorry too, much as my own husband was. He's not a bad guy, in fact... he's a pretty nice guy. But somewhere in the back of his mind my friend felt like he EXPECTED her to forgive him, as if forgiveness was owed to him somehow. And it wasn't. He broke his vows and exposed her to potential STDs in the process. If she wanted to end the marriage, she had an absolute right to do so. But even so, she gave him the opportunity to make it right. He had a chance to put her first in his life, to prioritize her need for reassurance, and to make her feel loved. But in the end, I think maybe he was so wrapped up in his own emotional pain that he couldn't really focus his attention on hers.

I don't think we can assume that Viking has fallen into the same pitfall of 'entitlement to forgiveness' that my friend's husband fell into. But on the other hand, I don't think we can assume he hasn't either. As a potential hazard, I just think maybe it's something for him to be mindful of.

I think you're still qualifying, Viking. I don't say that to be mean or critical. I just think it's something that you've got to face if you're going to be successful. You wife could just as easily cite a "because" as you did in order to justify her position.

On a side-note, I'm wondering if you've read The Five Love Languages? 'Acts of service' seems to be a high priority for you in terms of ENs. You seem to be showing your love for your family by doing things for them. I'm wondering if you could gain some ground by speaking to your wife more in her love language.

I don't buy into the concept lock, stock, and barrel.... but maybe there's something to be gained in showing your love in terms that she recognizes more readily. Just a thought.

LadeyJane... thank you so much for your post. Your exactly right that I wanted to her your perspective on the question and let me assure you its not to find out how to defend or defeat a postion as strong as yours, its me trying to understand what my wife is feeling and how I can do things with love and respect.

I have asked for forgiveness not demanded it.

I have read 5 langurages, HNHN, SAA, 7 secrets, a ton of post, I have interacted with friends that have gone through similiar things, I have prayed, I haved talked to church lay leaders. I have reflected and dissected my feeling, my reasonings and my emotions.

Whenever I tell someone our story I include my infadelity as a cause of her current actions. I take owneship of my failures as a husband and friend.

I have gotten us into MC and will continue to go

Our MC asked about if we read 5 languages, I have... all the books have been sitting on her night stand untouched.

I have done the EN questionaire for me and her, I realize that service is not her language, its conversations, affection and trust.... I offer that where she will allow me.

Since I can't get her to open up to me, I am trying to get insight on how to work through this.

viking, you are doing a good job, and I applaud for looking into primary custody. As long as she is in the depths of an affair, she is not a fit parent. Fighting for primary custody and reentrance into your own home, via the legal system, will likely be a huge wake up call for her. And the best thing for your children. You are the only sane adult in their lives presently and they need their father.

She needs to feel the pressure from the consequences of her affair by taking strong legal action. But, this should not be something that YOU negotiate directly with her. [never negotiate with a foghorn] This should be something that your ATTORNEY negotiates for you. You should stay out of negotiations.

Let him carry the baseball bat that smacks her up side of the head while you work on protecting your children from a fogged out WS. He can be the bad guy, you be the good guy. One of the most effective moves you could make would be to get back into your house. As we have already discussed, while it was a BAD idea to move, it would be even worse to adhere to a bad promise. The only thing worse than making a bad promise, is KEEPING a bad promise.


LadyJane, you seem to be under the illusion that two wrongs make a right. Of course he has a right to expect to that his spouse will be faithful. His visitation of a prositute 2 years ago does not entitle her to have an affair. He has made amends for that by confessing his crime and staying faithful. He has paid for his crime. His past infidelity has NO BEARING on how he should handle his wife's affair. And I can't imagine why you continually and incessantly beat him up over it or try to convince him he is not good enough to fight for his family. It is irrelevant to this issue and changes nothing in how he addresses her affair.


No, her affair is not "history." It is CURRENT. His past visitation to a prostitute is "history" and has no bearing here. He did not drag his children into an affair, she did. He did not bust up his family and kick her out; she did. It is her fitness that is in question TODAY. We are dealing with TODAY.


But that would not be up to you. You don't get to make that decision in a court action, that is up to the judge to decide based on who he deems the most fit parent. Nor does his W get to decide that. It is out of her hands.

LadyJane, I cannot imagine why you insist on busting his balls for visiting a prostitute 2 years ago. That has absolutely no bearing on how he should handle his wife's affair today. He has to deal with the PRESENT STATE of circumstances in order to save his marriage and there are no circumstances here that would warrant not using all the tools at his disposal. He does not wear a SCARLET LETTER, he is not a PERMANTLY MARKED, IMPAIRED man. He did a terrible thing and has paid for his crimes. Nothing in the past absolves him of his responsibility to save his marriage and family from this sleazy affair.

BRAVO! Outstanding, honest post, MrsW. What MrsViking needs to feel, desperately, are those consequences that will wake her up. She has placed her children in an unstable, immoral environment in order to accommodate her affair. It is the responsibility of viking, as their father, to PROTECT them from her.

The children should never be sacrificed on the altar of some weird APPEASEMENT scheme. Plan A does not stand for APPEASEMENT after all. It is designed to bust up the affair by applying GREAT PRESSURE.

And that is exactly what viking is doing here: APPLYING PRESSURE. <----that is how you will wake her up, viking, so stick to your plan, my friend!

I am almost at the point of applying plan b to her.

I sent her a letter friday about letting me back into the house with boundaries, its posted on my other thread.

Today we still go back around how she wasn't having an emotional affair with either OM#1 or OM#2.

OM#2 is a friend of her's and she applied fantasy land onto him.... I exposed to him and this is part of what he sent back

"........At first my conversations with WS were the norm...excited to talk to an old friend and share a few stories. WW and I (when in touch) have great (amusing) conversations and have often served as mutual confidants. However, over the last couple of weeks she seems to have been quite assertvie and persistent in calling and/or emailing. I have been on vacation for the last two weeks and upon returing home this morning I checked my voice mail and had a few from WW. I didn't realize the potential danger of our "friendly" conversations until this morning. My voiced concern has obviously been misconstrued.

WW is hurting, and it seems to me that she may be looking for a male figure, whom she admires and respects, to shield her from the pain she is trying to bury. As long as she doesn't have to confront the issue...then it doesn't exist. I am certain you understand the psychological impact of the emotional rollercoaster she's riding."

So she is mad and upset now that in interferred with her friendship

by the way here is the Plan B letter.... might get delivered today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Dearest Wife,

I write this letter with a heavy heart, my soul and spirits are at their lowest points ever. Over the past year I have tried to be a better husband and fix the problems from the past. I provided you with all the material items you wanted but I didn’t provide you with a strong husband and friend. Though I have seen my error and truly want to fix it, you have lost your love for me. I would first like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I have made many mistakes in the past that can not be changed. I have made it clear to everyone that my time with my family, especially for my precious wife, is and will be my main focus. You will always come first.

Since August, I've been trying to give you hope for the marriage by learning how to be a better husband to you. To give you hope that you could return to a marriage that you wanted, and for us to build our family together, but past few months have been the most difficult time of my life. Unfortunately, before I lose any more of the thoughts and feelings of what once us, I must take some drastic steps.

I feel I must break off all contact with you. I will avoid seeing you or talking to you or communicating with you in any way. I would also like any of the regular communications between us to be handled through a mutual friend or relative of your choice. I will receive email and text messages, but will not respond. I will continue to call the girls and will be there for them as we have already agreed upon. Since we can not agree on certain martial items like finances, residency, and custody I will have ATTY , Attorney at Law, contact you to about setting up any arrangements.

WIFE, as you know I am still willing to do whatever it takes to correct the mistakes that we have made in the past and make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. I will continue to be a very strong and active part of the girls lives, and I will be trust and honor you as an equal part of this marriage. If you have any emergency matters, you can always call me or email me at any time.

I will be willing to discuss our future together as soon as you are willing to start work on our marriage and are willing to construct a plan to build a foundation for our marriage. Until that time I will continue to pray for our family and us.
I still love you today

Can I suggest you hold off on this for awhile? I think a much better plan would be to continue to meet her needs while at the same time letting her understand that there will be serious legal ramifications to her actions.

I think the very most effective thing you could do is get back in your house so you can work on becoming that male figure she is seeking.

At this point, if you go into Plan B, she will only be relieved because you wont be annoying her anymore while she seeks out a new boyfriend.

Anyway, at the very least wait until you have talked to Longhorn about this. He has followed your situation and has a good grasp of MB principles. I would be very interested to see his viewpoint.

Yeah I understand the challenge of going to Plan B right now or not... I just think that any legal action will just push her deeper into the fog....but if that is what it takes.

I know my wife is a great person and equally good parent but if it comes down to it I don't see myself any different than her in ability to care for them, and I have more stability in my life, work and life that she right now doesn't have.

viking, legal action usually has the effect of a much needed cold splash of water. It can WAKE HER UP to realize there will be consequences. It has an enormous eye opening effect on a WS.

I give you much more credit that you do in your ability as a parent. You did not have an affair and allow it to disrupt your family, SHE DID unfortunately. So, please look at this realistically and realize that she is not a good parent right now. She may be under normal circumstances, but the reality is that she is not RIGHT NOW.

I don't think you should go to Plan B, Viking. I agree with ML that you'd be kind of giving your wife what she wants in some respects. You want your Plan B to have a vacuum effect emotionally. You want her to miss you.

I think if I were you, I'd call the Harley's and get an expert assessment of where you ought to be in your plan. Your financial situation has become strained, and maybe SH could give you some alternative ideas that wouldn't require the intervention of the court system. The fee for the consult would be less than what you'd spend taking her to court. And you'll have peace of mind knowing that you're using the MB program to it's best effect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thank You....

I know my wife well enough that she is only thinking about controlling the sitch, I like how she reverses everything. She calls me controlling, when she is try to control me. She says I am threatening when she is threatening me.

So I was reveiwing some legal options for me in North Carolina and I can get a magistrate to order me back into the house without going into any custody battle... my concern is that my wife may try to remove the kids from the house and stay at the inlaws if that happens. That is what I have to ask the attorney next is how to do that.

I don't think I ever suggested that "two wrongs make a right", ML. And I agree, you are absolutely correct when you say, "His visitation of a prositute 2 years ago does not entitle her to have an affair". What it does entitle her to.... is a DIVORCE in most states. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I don't understand why this lady's concerns haven't been taken into consideration. Any other BS would find support even if she wasn't posting here herself. The fact that she's been a recent WS doesn't negate her previous BS status in my mind. She's been just as wronged as her husband has. They've BOTH made mistakes, they've BOTH been hurt, and they BOTH have wounds to heal. Ramping up the acrimony doesn't make sense to me. IF the EA is still ongoing, I think it's entirely possible for Viking to end the affair without permanently alienating his wife.

I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinion, ML. And I thought it over for a long while before posting to him again. But I don't think it really helps him to get just one perspective. I'm not "busting his balls". I'm just offering another viewpoint... hopefully one that will give him some insight into the way another woman might interpret his actions. Will his wife view it your way? ...or my way? Maybe neither. Maybe somebody else will give him another perspective that's closer to hers. Who knows.

Back before all the trouble began, was there any kind of technique that you two used to solve your differences of opinion so that neither of you turned it on the other? How did you work out your disagreements before?


That's what I would do if I were her. So, I think your attorney is going to have to give you some input on that.

It would be soooooo much better if she'd agree to let you come back without a court order. Will she meet you for an indepth review of finances? Would she be amenable to helping you plan a 6-month fianancial strategy? You don't have to press her for permanent solutions. You just need your foot in the door so you can make some headway emotionally with your Plan A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I prefer that and it may still happen and I will do my best to Plan A her and be there for her.

I agree that she has the choice for a divorce, so do I.

Like any spouse I had and have the choice to decide to give up and walk away and try and take the kids - for good reason's or out of spite.

let me assure you that is not what I am trying to do. I am trying to keep my family together... right now my biggest concern is how I come up with over 700 a month because of two households.... she knows where we are financially, she has heard my committement, she has seen my committement.

I have seen her change when I apply MB principals and really work on my communication and delivery of my feelings and thoughts.... but she flows back into the fog if I press anything with her.

Maybe you could start a dialogue by asking her to submit a proposal on how she thinks the financial planning should go. (????)

I imagine if she sat down with pen and ink and tried to draw up a budget meeting the needs of two separate households, she'd have to face a bit of reality. What if you said to her, "Honey, I've been over and over this thing. Maybe you could take a look at it and see if there's something I'm missing. I'm worried we're going to lose the house if we don't get on the stick and address this pretty soon."

You've talked to her about it.... but has she crunched the numbers for herself? Sitting down with a budget has a way of making it difficult to evade the truth.

I have given her a budget based on two households and a budget based on us living separate... advice from our MC. So either way she is in the whole by a whole bunch... now we have been separated for 2 months and as we were separated she was saying... well I will have to go out and get a 40 hour job. She hasn't.... She is upset with me for suggesting that we cancel our pool membership for the summer - she doesn't know what she will do with the girls, if they can't go to the pool... I am thinking you need to be getting a J O B if your choice is divorce.... so that is why on the other thread and this one I believe that she needs a wake up.

You've given her two different proposals, but she hasn't offered an alternative budget of her own design yet?

Hmmmm.... let me think about that. I'll get back with you tomorrow. I have some holiday plans to get to, and I want to spend some time pondering about what might motivate me if I were in her position.

ummmm no. She has slept with him since his unfaithfulness and this is viewed as FORGIVENESS. It would be viewed in the PAST, as it should be here too. But guess what ELSE? He is NOW entitled to a divorce himself because of her affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> WHOOPS!


First off, she is NOT the BS NOW. She is the WS. We are dealing with the PRESENT, LadyJane. He is a FORMER WS. Do you understand the meaning "FORMER?" That means it is in the PAST and has no bearing on the PRESENT. The PRESENT situation is that he is the BS. She is the WS. HE is the victim. His children are the VICTIMS. She is the VICTIMIZER. That is REALITY. We must deal with REALITY in order to help him save his marriage.

This man is here to get help in saving his marriage, not to pay a pennace for past sins. His past sins do not constitute some sort of forfeiture on his part for the right to save his marriage, despite what you have recommended. [ie: you are not entitled to use the STICK of Plan A, only the carrot]


Do you understand that the "one perspective" he is here for is the MARRIAGE BUILDERS "perspective?" That is the "perspective" he needs help with. And those principles need to be applied to the PRESENT, not the past. It is futile to constantly bash him with his past sins at the EXPENSE of the PRESENT. Deal with the PRESENT, Ladyjane, not the PAST.

viking, that is exactly the right attitude. She should get a job and all the frills should be cancelled. There should be no negotiation here. She gets NO SAY in the finances because she cannot be trusted. She is so irresponsible that she would put her family at such risk only to accommodate her affair. You would be a fool to allow her any input on something as important as a budget.

Trying to negotiate with a person who is hellbent on taking advantage of you and destroying your family is BAD ADVICE. She does not have your family's best interest at heart so should have no say in the budget as long as she is in the affair. She should never be rewarded for her destructive behavior, but instead, treated to the full consequences of her behavior.

I would suggest protecting your finances and giving her a SET ALLOWANCE that constitutes the LEAST AMOUNT allowed by law. This would involve visiting your attorney and getting a LS drawn up. However, the worst thing you can do is to negotiate with her about YOUR finances. That gives her an inordinate amount of power that she has no right to possess. She has chosen to NOT BE a part of this marriage, remember, so don't give her the benefits a married person should expect. Doing that only protects her from the consequences of her destructive behavior.

Appeasing and protecting her from the consequences of her affair ARE NOT what Plan A is all about. Don't negotiate with a crazy woman, viking, that is only enabling her.

viking, that sounds like the best course of action. She could not remove your kids, however, without a court order herself. But your best bet is get back in that house. With you there, it will be extremely hard for her to carry on her affair. You would also be able to be with your kids, which I am sure would relieve them greatly.

Once you get back in the house, it will be much easier in every aspect. You can do much more effective Plan A if you are THERE to meet her needs and interfere with her affair.

Almost ALL WS's scream about "controlling" when the BS won't allow them to run right over them, so pay it no mind. If she WEREN'T accusing you of being controlling, then you wouldn 't be doing something right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Can a WS have an affair with themselves?

OM#1 contact has been broken off for a month and it was like high school thing

OM#2 is a friend of her's that she basically created a fantasy without him knowing it. I exposed and he is aware of her desires and he is good christian so he is telling to think abou the family.

Her focus right now is on how she feels towards me... how I ruined her "friendships", how I have destroyed our marriage with my previous.

Longhorn and I have been discussing how selfish my WS is and that she is soooo focused on her needs only. So can she be in a fog over herself her needs her interpetation of what has happened??

I get the sense that she is TROLLING for dudes as indicated by her constant emails to OM#2, that is IF her affair has truly ended.


nononono, her focus is on diverting attention to you, to take the attention OFF HER. She needs to demonize you in order to rationalize her affairs. This is CLASSIC WS behavior.

Don't be misled about what is really happening here lest you be led down the WRONG path. You can expect her to manufacture grievances and greatly exaggerate past grievances in order to change the subject from her own destructive behavior. It is a RUSE.

yeah that is what i see and have gotten the similiar response to this from LH.... do I do anything different with plan a when there is no OP... how about OS other self <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know stay strong and follow the right path

Viking, I wouldn't do anything different. In your case, I still think your BEST BET at saving this marriage is getting back in your house! You are operating at great disadvantage by being out. You can much better fill that hole if you are home.

What do you think she would do if you just moved home unannounced?

well I really can't there are laws that once you leave you can't move back without permission, so I am at a real disadvantage.

I am hoping that reality is sinking in bit with my wife and that she will allow me back in with no incident

I wonder if I should just go down the legal path - at least have my lawyer contact my wife and just put some pressure on her... like

Attorney needs your budget
Attorney needs to see your pay stub
Attorney needs to know your attorney's name
Attorney needs to know your parenting plan

Now he can call her and ask her these things, which are all legimate request for separation and divorce, but she would just get a huge reality shock with having to think about this.

If I move in with no incident I believe she will just feel victimize again

No viking, the plan does not change now...IF her affair/s are over then she is in withdrawal and will be throwing a number of rationalizations and justifications your way for quite sometime...that's all very normal...heck, and I'm not beating you up at all here, but you even threw one at us in an earlier post, remember:


Now, viking, the only reason I am even pointing this out to you is so that you may better understand what your wife will be throwing your way...I'm not slammin' ya...it's in your past, but I want you to take a look at what you said, k? Do you honestly think the solution to your getting no affection for years from your wife was a prostitute? Do you think maybe a better solution would have been counseling, or heck, even divorce? I'm sure that you know that, right? So actually, you went to the prostitute because of a selfish choice, right? No one forced you to do that...Just like NOTHING that you have done has forced your wife to have an affair...that was her choice, plain and simple...don't take the blame for something you did not choose...and NO, you did not force her hand based on your previous poor choice...We all have free will to make proper moral choices...I know you understand that viking, I just want you to be prepared for the load of excuses that she will give you...there is NO excuse...a choice is a choice...

viking, I still believe that you would be taking the right path in going for sole custody of your children...I understand when you say this,


However, viking, that does NOT ring true right now because of this...


And viking, don't fool yourself, kids are very bright and on some level they know what's going on and they know it's not right-they need an adult who will validate this for them...Do you understand the terrible life lessons that your girls are learning from this?
Check out this article by Jennifer Harley Chalmers on what infidelity does to children... MB Article

Mrs. W

Hey, Viking. Friend, you're confusing me. Here on this thread you're talking as if you can get back in the home with a magistrate's order and then do some more Plan A stuff. On your other thread, you seem almost desperate to get Plan B under way before you go to the magistrate. You want to do it today?

Pardner, what's happening? Are you okay?

I understand the accumulated stress of constantly being at odds with your WW is terrible. Plan B is partially designed to insulate you from all the pain and misery before it becomes too much. Is that where you are now? Talk to us, okay?

Sorry LH... i was just hashing out different ideas...

Its still the same... Continue to try and get in to the house civily but come wednesday I am talkin to the lawyer.

So my question AGAIN is, what would happen if you just moved home? Just packed your back, went home and said "honey, I'm home!"


None of that will make a DENT. What will make a dent is a court order that you can come home. But first go home and see if you can get in that way. Then, if she calls the police and has you tossed, you can get the court order.

Viking,

I think what MelodyLane is saying is that REGARDLESS of the LEGALITIES of the situation, what would your wife actually DO if you just moved back home? Would she call the police?

You have been continually avoiding answering this question in all your threads.

Legalities are one thing, her actions are what is important here.

Hmmmmmmm...Viking, we talked about this early on in another thread, I think. Do I recall you having broached this already with your attorney and having been advised not to attempt to just go back home? Can you refresh my memory?

Simple if I go back and I am not invited and she ask me to leave, and I refuse her request...I will be arrested for domestic criminal trespassing.

I was venting my options earlier, there is having a magistrate order me in or going down the path of a custody hearing.

or

she can invite me back in and I start Plan A'ing at home

But WILL she ask you to leave and if you don't WILL she call the police?

p.s. Viking, please tell me you understood what i said about "negotiating" finances with her. That should NOT HAPPEN, my friend, because it is ENABLING. Did you read my post?

Well, then how about this? Call her up and tell her you are ready to come home now. Tell her you cannot afford to support both homes. See what she says.

If she refuses to allow you back in your home, ask your attorney to get a court order allowing you back into your home.

viking, the longer you are out, the harder it is going to be to pick up the pieces. The sooner you are home, the sooner you can work on your marriage. Now would be a great time, too, since it seems her most recent OM has rebuffed her.

Either way, I would not sit around and wait for the spirit to move an entitlement minded, selfish WS to allow her H back into his own home. You should not allow a fogged out WS to dictate your life and that of your children. As it is, that is what is happening NOW. I would suggest taking control of the situation and getting back in there. Don't put yourself at her mercy.

Ahhhhh, okay. I kinda thought the consequences were something one would like to avoid if possible. You’ve evaluated the chance of your WW calling the police in that situation and decided she would, is that correct?

Okay, so where you stand now is waiting through the weekend to see if she'll respond to your letter where you talked about the family suffering if you can't combine the households again, right? If she won't do that, you get the magistrate's order--which is a low-level kind of thing to me--and then you move back in anyway, if I'm understanding things correctly.

Once back home, can you do a little more Plan A? Truly, it might have big rewards down the line if you have the stamina for just a bit more.

Then, if she tries to leave with the children, you forbid her to take them. Children can’t be removed from their home just on a whim. In NC, isn’t there a possibility of a restraining order prohibiting her from removing the children from the home? If she won’t see the light, you’re going to go the legal option to get sole custody (or whatever the proper term is in your state) based on what your attorney advises?

Is this sort of how you see this playing out over the next few days or weeks?

1.5 years ago, my daughter wanted to go live w/ my x. We've been apart since she was 4. She was 13 at the time. My x concocted a parenting plan. Tried to bully me. I dragged my feet. I knew something was up.

Now, granted this situation was seriously different from what you were proposing.

If I had agreed w/ x's plan, I would have lost my house. It was that financially devastating. I fought for dear life but I knew I was fighting something I couldn't see. Something reall was being hidden.

Turns out, my d had been sexually abused by a family member on my side of the family and she was truly trying to get away from that stuff.

Had she gone to live w/ her father, this would never have come out. She never would have gotten the therapy she needed.

She no longer is a danger to herself. She no longer cuts. She no longer has contact w/ the perpetrator. I no longer have contact w/ my sister's family - the perp was a member of that family. We are SO much happier now - everyone has been dragged into therapy and we are doing incredibly well. (As for the perp and his family, I can't say. He was ordered to undergo a psychosexual evaluation and follow the recommendations based on the results. Who knows about my s, bil, or niece. They would agree to therapy only if they were to gain financially from doing so and it required that they never have to look seriously at themselves.)

As good as their father would try to be, he would never have gotten her the help I got her. NEVER.

I fought the idea of court. I fought the idea of her moving. I fought to get her treatment. And there is no way he could have proven me unfit. NO WAY. Fortunately, his minister is the one who told him to not fight but to negotiate.

Funny thing is, we had negotiated, between the two of us, a more liberal visitation schedule only hours before she left a suicide note on her locker at school. She never knew what the agreement was. It went out the door the day she was discharged from the hospital. She has never expressed a desire to move in w/ him since.

So, there are times when one parent - or the other - needs to stand and fight.

cinderella, I agree. viking needs to fight for his children. Fathers have many more rights today than they have in the past and are just as capable as women at parenting. And the risk of his children being molested by his wife's various train of boyfriends is great.

Protect your kids, viking, you are all they have!

So it was an interesting night, I got several calls about exposing to OM#2 and how I destroyed a friendship. I was told how I was evil and vile... I remained calm.

I was told I would never move back in and she would drag her feet on any deal... I remained calm, only spoke of my focus on the marriage.

I got a heated call saying she signed the sales agreement for the house and we could sign our separation agreement tomorrow... I told her I couldn't sign it because I was advised against it... I also said I wouldn't talk to her about separation she could call Mr X my lawyer at 555-1212 when she wanted to talk about that - I told her he has my list of needs and wants and he will negotiate... she got hot about that.... I remained calm.

She called back about half hour later, told me she was dead in side for me, that she would never love me again, that the pain I inflicted on her 2 years ago and in the past 11 years was too much...She also brought up that had lost 3 of her grandparents in a span of a year - her beloved grandfather the day after she found out about my infidelity... I have tried even in the hardtimes to be there for her - she is hard to get close too... but she was blaming me for still being sad over her grandparents.

Anyways she said our compromise is back on... which is we would live in the house together until my youngest graduates high school - which is 12 years...

She ratteld some other things off but she said something about getting our "compromise" written up and seen by my lawyer - I guess she is referring to mutal boundaries that I asked for last time we talked....

Now this morning she called me to tell me that they were playing on the radio auditions for a radio job that she put in for.. and it was a nice causal conversaion - really surprised me.

viking, what exactly is the compromise? If this means you are going to agree to live there while she pursues a single life, that is not going to work. Is this what she has in mind? If so, I would move forward and get the attorney to get you back in legally. With no "compromises."

Good job on not agreeing to sell the house!

(I said yesterday that I'd give you a post today, so that's what I'm going to do. I'm sorry if it's causing you any problems on your thread though. Say the word and I'll get out of your way.)

Anyway, from the looks of your last post... she's all over the place. It's difficult and confusing for you to deal with, but at the same time, I think it shows you that there's a window of opportunity. She's mad at you, of course... but it looks like she has a vacancy sign up in terms of needing a friend. That's something you can capitolize on utilizing a good Plan A.



I imagine that's true. The trick to dealing with that is to the big bulls-eye off your forehead. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Her negative energy is focused on you and your actions. Her resentments, her anger, her frustration with her life.... all centered on YOU. In order to combat that mindset, the reasonable thing to do is to present less of a target and less of a threat.

I spent some time yesterday thinking about what would work for my husband if he were in your position. I have to warn you... I'm a fairly tough customer. If we had gone to physical separation, my husband would've been very hard-pressed to get me to reconsider. I'm not going to rearrange my life and the lives of my children on a whim. If I felt that separation was the only answer, I'd have BIG reasons for that.

We get so sidetracked in the discussion of affairs; how they work, the effect they have on a WS's ability to concentrate on the issues. Sometimes, I don't think we remember that an affair is a symptom rather than a cause. Once the affair is in place, it's destructive and prevents the WS from addressing the primary relationship, that's true. But much as what you said earlier in reference to why you felt you had cheated.... these problems within the marriage exist before the adultery.

When I 'walk a mile', I find that I want those initial problems addressed. I want to be taken seriously, and I want to KNOW that I'll never have to face those issues again. I want to KNOW that my husband is prioritizing my feelings with the same intensity that he prioritizes his own, and that he will always continue to do so.

I don't want an adversary, and I don't want a boss. That's why I don't want to live with him anymore. I want THAT relationship to end.

What I do want is a partner. Handily enough, that's REALLY what my husband wants too. He wants to feel loved and prioritized in the marriage. In a nutshell, he wants the same things I do.

What happened to us... was that he didn't feel "loved" or "prioritized" within the marriage. Like alot of guys who feel emotionally unsupported in their homelife, he felt like a 'paycheck'. He felt minimized in the family dynamic, like an outsider looking in. He wasn't having his emotional needs met. He needed more communication, he needed more emotional support, he needed more sex...and not the obligatory kind, but rather the passionate kind. He needed to feel attractive and desired.

On top of all the emotional concerns, he had medical problems that were causing him daily pain. He had a midlife crisis going on which was causing him some depression. This guy was a MESS.

Meanwhile, I'm cooking along thinking I'm a pretty good wife. I'm taking care of the family, the home, the dogs. I'm working outside the home and helping out with the bills. Like so many other women, I've got alot of plates spinning in the air. I'm covered up in terms of completing my daily 'to do' list, but I'm managing to muddle through each day. My husband is not a child. He can do for himself, the kids can't. Heck, the dog can't.

My husband has slid to the bottom of my list of priorities and I don't even realize it. We're fighting alot, because I don't understand what his beef with me is. It doesn't make sense to me. And because his complaints are loud, and his words are poorly chosen in anger and frustration... it all sounds like b*tching and whining to me. The worse he feels, the more noise he makes. Finally, we're adversaries living in the same house.

I try to keep the peace, but in order to do that... I'm avoiding him whenever possible. This frustrates him even more, because now he's in a situation in which he's not merely living with unmet needs.... he's being ignored. So, he keeps turning up the volume, and I keep running away. Finally, he gives up. He's NEVER going to get what he needs from me, so why bother? He starts looking for it elsewhere.

I'm sure that all that sounds like a cheap excuse for bad behavior. But those are the facts. Hindsight being 20/20, I can't avoid the truth. Yes... he's guilty for making a poor decision. But the whole time I thought I was being a good partner, I really wasn't.

On D-Day, I saw a lawyer and when I confronted my husband, I wanted a divorce. I wasn't playing games, I wasn't giving him an ultimatum. I was done. I was ready for him to fight me, but I wasn't going to budge an inch. I had been mistreated and ill-used, and there was NOTHING he could say that would change my mind.

Initially, he wanted to argue his case... but I wasn't having any of it. I didn't care enough to even fight with him anymore, so I shut him down whenever he tried to bring up the marital issues. They were a moot point. It was over.

And when that sunk in... it broke him. Instead of b*tching and whining, what I was hearing was raw, emotional pain. I was hearing for the first time what my inattention had caused inside him. Much like Dr. Harley's article about Why Women Leave Men, I found myself inside a "room of his house" where I'd never been before. It was a room where he doesn't have defensive walls, a room where his pain resides.

I suddenly found myself sympathetic. I couldn't bring myself to hurt him anymore. He wasn't my enemy. I loved him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This was new information to me. I didn't KNOW that I loved him like that. Sure, I loved him still... like a family member, the father of my children, a guy I had been familiar with for over 20 years. He had just given me the old, "I love you but I'm not in love with you" bag of crap the week previous to all this. And it hurt like a b*tch... but on the inside, I kind of identified with it. You could've knocked me down with a feather when I realized that I was still "in love" with my husband.

And I would've walked over hot coals for him in that moment.

Once sympathy for each other was loose in the room. He'd have done ANYTHING to make me happy. If it meant divorce, that's what he would do. And to be honest, it was the same for me. I'd have given him an amicable divorce and wished him well if that's what he wanted. But if it made him truly happy... I was willing to rebuild the marriage too.

I'm not interested in being the one who makes his life less than what he wants it to be. I'm not interested in being the target for his frustrations. I want to add to his life experience, not subtract from it. I want him to be happy. I love him. And when I told him all that... he laid his head down in my lap and submitted his worries for my attention.

Now, the path he was on was going to hurt him eventually. Like you sized up the OM in your situation, I sized up the OW in mine. She was a narcissistic cam-wh*re. A person sick enough to crave the attention of random men in order to satisfy her need for validation. She had a long list of men she was stringing along, and it still took some time for my husband to see that this person was NOT his "friend". The fog persists, even when we have a 'breakthrough' until after this realization is made. Dealing with this part of the process took more patience than I would've previously thought I had in me. But to fail, would leave him at her mercy. And I was NOT going to let that happen. So, even though I hadn't been to MB... I found myself doing what could loosely be described as Plan A.

He had been starved in terms of having his ENs met. I lavished my attention upon him. He was still in the fog. I showed my light like a beacon. I dropped the reins, and let him make his own decisions. I had unwittingly allowed him to cast me in the role of 'Mother'. So many of his earlier negative responses were due to the authoritarian control that he perceived me to have over him. It didn't matter that those perceived controls were an illusion on his part. It felt true to him because he believed it.

I had to take the "bulls-eye" off my forehead. This wasn't even a ploy at that point. I truly didn't WANT to be the cause of his life being unhappy. If he wanted out... there was the door. I didn't want him if it meant him living out his days viewing himself as a prisoner.

So I dropped any behavior that could be perceived as "controlling". That's not to say that I didn't set boundaries, because I did. But I kept them pared down to the bone. Just the things that I couldn't live with and still remain on in the marriage.

Because he was an internet cheater, I insisted that his "friends" be kept in cyber. No phone calls, and NO in-person visits. I wanted our personal information kept private. I wanted full access to his computer activities. But since I'd never heard of NO CONTACT or EXPOSURE, these were not things I insisted on. I didn't care if he fed his ego flirting with other women on-line, but the flirting with the one particular OW had to stop. Weirdly enough, the fact that I didn't insist on NC worked in my favor. In short order he was able to unmask her for the troubled individual she really is. It didn't hurt that I was sitting there next to him predicting her tactics one by one as she attempted to reengage him. There isn't any 'old flame' burning there today. He was fairly disgusted with what he saw, and he saw it for himself too. He can't pin that disillusionment on me.

Like I said, I didn't know about NC or Exposure either. I never "exposed" him. I did request that he talk to his two best male companions though. I felt like he needed some additional support. So he talked to them, and he felt better afterwards. His side of the family doesn't know ANY of the details to this day. But MY side of the family knew all about it. They were instrumental actually in me catching him out, as well as supporting me in whatever decision I needed to make at the time.

I'm sorry this has gotten long. But I wanted you to see that my husband and I were successful because we put our weapons down, and STOPPED escalating the conflict.

There were still bumps in the road, but once we accessed our sympathy for one another we were able to prioritize each other's needs as if they were our own. My husband didn't live within my boundaries because he was afraid I'd leave him. He did it because he knew it would hurt me if he didn't. That's the power of Sympathy. Even in the face of our red-hot negative emotions, it can unlock our 'love' feelings.

You can't make your wife sympathize with you. But when YOU sympathize with her, you take the bulls-eye off your forhead. You're no longer a target for her animosity. And as she begins to feel loved, supported, and prioritized, the possibility that she will reciprocate in kind increases. You are no longer her adversary. You are her friend.

This isn't easy. It requires that we prioritize the other person's needs AHEAD of our own, at least for a time. And while we're doing it, we sometimes feel like a complete schmuck, filled with self-doubt and afraid we're being used. But...to me, this goes with the territory when you're in Plan A, something of a necessary emotional risk.

From What Are Plan A and Plan B: Here


You said you're fairly confident that the OM is not a factor any longer. But even without an active affair underfoot, there's still a need for Plan A in order to combat the unmet needs and annoying behavior. When you read through the linked information again, you'll see that the words "negotiate" and "negotiation" are a part of the process. The adversarial tone that we see so frequently on infidelity boards is absent from the actual written information in the MB Basic Concepts section.

We can't expect success when we allow ourselves to operate from a fearful place. What I learned in my situation is that I had nothing to fear. The worst case scenario in terms of 'Marriage' had already happened. The marriage was OVER. But.... the actuality of it wasn't as scary as the possibility of it. Once the marriage was over, I had no place to go but UP. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This allowed for a NEW marriage, a new understanding of one another. Neither of us wanted the old relationship back anyway. Why would we? It sucked.

When you face down your fears and you explore the worst case scenario, you find your strength. You realize that yeah... it's not your first choice to end the relationship, but you know you'll survive it and you'll be okay if it happens. The fear dissipates because you KNOW that you're gonna handle whatever comes up.

The fear is what feeds the negative emotions...anger, resentment, impotence. The negative emotions are what prevent us from seeing with absolute clarity. They keep the landscape murky, and they sap our positive energy. The negative emotions invoke our TAKER, making us behave in an oppositional manner. When you face down your demons and eliminate your fear, you slow the influx of energy feeding the negative emotions.

You have alot on the line, Viking. You're worried about keeping your family together, and keeping your finances straight. But the fact is that if it all goes to pot... you and your family are still going to survive. In the big picture, if the bank forecloses on the house, it won't deprive you or your family of oxygen to breathe. If your wife divorces you, it's not going to make your kids stop loving you.

Now, I'm not telling you that your goal in saving your marriage is unworthy. Never that. All I'm saying is that if you fail.... the world keeps turning. Once you've lived in that moment and conquered your fear of it, the panic that you've probably been feeling can't hinder you anymore, or make you behave in an adversarial way. Your eyes are open and you're seeing with clarity.

It's faith, Viking. Faith in God. Faith in yourself. You're going to handle whatever comes up in terms of THE BIG PICTURE, and you're going to do it with God's love in your heart. That's what makes it possible to let the fear go.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LJ...I have no other words than thank you.

I would like your permission to take your post as is and send it to my wife.. you have taken how I feel and expressed it better and sweeter than I ever could.

Thanks you agin for the post

and thank you all for being MB

Your welcome, Viking. The post was for you. Use whatever you can of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

She's back on message, eh? When the topic is her, she's congenial and calm. When the subject is anything else, she blames you--even for her grandparent’s death. This is pretty typical, and illustrates the self-centered nature of all wayward spouses, but particularly your WW, Viking.


********


Notice she blithely assumes you had accepted her “compromise” at some point in the past and she has the power to approve or disapprove it. I suppose this is her way of negotiating with you on the contents of that letter you gave her suggesting you come home because the family resources won’t stand for two homes. Is that the way you view it?

As Melody pointed out, if that compromise includes being married and acting single, it isn’t going to work. Melody has been out here for many years and has helped hundreds of couples recover their marriages. If you do nothing else, Viking, pay attention to what Melody recommends.

Don’t be distracted by a compromise that appears to push the problems even 12 years down the line. You can’t give her that or it will create problems and discord later down the line…and it won’t be 12 years either. It could be next week, or next month.

You’ll be tempted to accept. Some people will urge you to do it and negotiate afterward. After all, it gets you back in the home, which is what you want and need, doesn’t it? Twelve years is a long time, you might think. Anything can happen in 12 years. It would give you a long time to work on these things, right?

Actually, the compromise she proposes is a delayed time bomb and it’ll explode sooner or later and wreck havoc in your marriage. The family structure will be bombarded with additional OMs because she will continue to troll for them. She’s shown what she intends with OM#2, hasn’t she? Trying to sweep her infidelity under the rug in the name of a compromise just isn’t going to work. She’ll find OM#3 pretty quickly…perhaps down at her new “dream job.”

By the way, this business of being “dead inside,” and the “last 11 years” having been a disaster, particularly the last 2 years, etc., etc., is classic wayward spouse drivel. Darn near any reference to a time period is rewriting history--the good times are all ignored and the bad times are all magnified into catastrophes. She has to deny any feelings for you in order to justify the things she’s been doing.

In a weird way, that’s encouraging because it shows buried deep inside her somewhere there is a core of integrity that has to be fed lies in order for her to indulge herself with an adultery. MB principles, as opposed to other and more haphazard techniques, work to nurture that sense of integrity and bring it back to the forefront. When that can’t be done effectively, when one caves on one’s boundaries and the fantasy is left intact, the marriage limps to a solution that is ripe for fracturing again down the line.

I think you decided to give her until your attorney returns tomorrow to respond to the contents of your letter, right? I think you’re in a good “negotiating position” with the alien. The alien wouldn’t have thrown up the “compromise” again if it sees a more advantageous way to accede to what you’re saying and still keep it’s options for continued adultery open.

Stay strong, Viking. Remember, you’re not dealing with your wife here. You’re dealing with an alien. Dr. Harley didn’t place his techniques for a strong marital recovery in the last half of SAA by accident. You have to banish the alien first, then work with your wife to build a stronger relationship than either of you ever thought you could have. Hang in there, pardner.

By the way, Viking, can I suggest you go back to your old thread for posting? It's getting a tad confusing keeping track of what appears on two threads. My concern is you may get advice here that doesn't take into account the long history on the other thread. That can create confusion and may well get you sideways in your recovery plan.

Wow, Lady jane- great post!

Yes LH I will go back to my origional post on my whole situation.

I already got a response from her on forwarding LJ letter what a wacko the alien is