Thanks for everyone perspective....

I don't want to paint my wife into too bad if a light, she does do things for the girls but, for instance when I go over the dish's are piled in the sink, now i use to do it and get it done... but now I am getting the girls to do chores, which she could have done but didn't. So 1) I am not just doing things to get them done 2) I am trying to get the girls to do their share of responsibiltie

I continue find myself putting my wife on a pedistal and forget the things she doesn't do and think of only positive. I told LH that she I initialize that well my wife has different priorities she was focused on the kids and doing things with them to help develope them and be a good mom, but I took the blinder's off and said well what about the other things. So prioroties me that you do the high priorities first and THEN the low priorities, well she has a real problem of getting to the low priorities.

So I love my wife, but I have to protect my family - when I say that my wife gets upset, but that is what iam doing.

So I will be seeing my lawyer sometime this week to see what options I have, their may be options that I can get back into the house without taking custody, but I she has also threatened me with taking the kids with her if I did get someone back into the house.

By the way the 3rd day after I left to give her space, Her, the kids and the OM went to the park and fished and road bikes....

Now I have to make sure people know that I had slept with with oneone about 2 years ago - a prostitute - because I was faced with no affection for years from my wife. Now she is not having a PA but has about 2 EA's in the past 9 months. She has been out of our marriage mentally for that time.

No, I wouldn't say that. I've seen nothing to suggest that this lady is a bad mom.

Viking asked a question, and I answered it as honestly as I could. I understood the question to be about a mother's perspective on giving up primary custody of the children. I can't speak for other women, but THIS mom wouldn't do it. I'd fight it all I could, and if I got boxed in, I'd play his game 'til I could extricate myself. But under NO CIRCUMSTANCES would I ever give up my kids.


When did I say he was a bad parent? I think what I said was that as a mother, it wouldn't matter to me how good my counterpart was... I would still never give up primary custody of my kids. That's me. I don't speak for everyone, just myself. I'm the 'mother bear' type, that's all.

But I'll grant you that in terms of being a 'husband', I don't share your same view after reading through all the information. I see Viking as a FWH, who after breaking his vows of marriage, is attempting to force his wife to honor hers. I see her as a BS. And I don't think it's fair that just because he's really, really sorry....she should just have to 'get over it' and accept him back.

I've been VERY clear that I don't condone EAs. My husband's EA was extremely painful to me. But I'll tell you, if he hadn't shown sincere remorse and if he hadn't fully supported me in whatever decision I made afterward concerning my ability to remain in the marriage... I'd have surely divorced him out-of-hand. In my mind, marriage is a contract. When one partner breaks the vows, he breaks the "contract".

And I don't see a BS as obligated to forgive the transgression. So, I don't see the wisdom in prodding a BS with the pointy end of the stick. If it were me, that would only make me come out swinging.

Isn't it possible that we do Viking a bit of a disservice not to let him know that there are different perspectives? We don't all view the situation in the same way. We all speak from our own perspective, and I'm just sharing mine. There's nothing accusatory here.

Viking's in a tough spot, and he seems an honest enough guy who has admitted his mistakes. Personally, I don't hold it against him.... but then again, I don't have to be married to him either. All I can do for him is to try to empathize, not just with him but with his wife too. She's not here to tell her side of the story afterall. But if I use my own perspective and try to 'walk a mile' in her shoes, I would be feeling very forced and manipulated right now.

So, I think it's a shame not to share different perspectives with him. He could be missing opportunities to find true reconciliation. His wife is still talking to him. She's still sharing her hopes and dreams for the future. There still seems to be some hope for their marriage to survive. I honestly think that force or manipulation could ruin all that.

His wife isn't a marriage-builder. She can't be expected to adhere to the program. She's not going to understand what he's trying to do. Like EVERYONE else who is living their own experience, she sees it through her own lens, not her husband's. I think it's highly possible that she might feel victimized because that's how I would feel if I was in her position. Is it right for her to feel that way? Is is wrong? It doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, her perception is her truth... and that's the mindset that Viking must deal with. If she feels victimized or bullied, then her status as a victim will color everything else he says or does no matter how sincere his efforts are.

He could win the battle but lose the war. Because in the end, he wants a wife that loves him and WANTS to be with him.... not one who is just tolerating him and biding her time until she can be rid of him.


You're right about my perspective as a BS. My husband had an EA a little over 2 years ago, internet pornography, and full-on midlife crisis. It wasn't pretty, but you know... this far down the pike in recovery, I don't really see myself as a BS anymore. It's more like the memory of a particular life experience more than something that's active in my internal view.

I don't have any vested interest in Viking's situation, so I can't really take it personally. It just seems a shame to me that he might possibly lose the opportunity to repair his family dynamic. Having experienced recovery in my own marriage, I just like sharing that with folks, and helping them along if I can. That's my only interest here. But to do that, I have to be honest in what I think. Otherwise, I'm just placating and validating but not offering a real opinion.

I absolutely agree with you also, Mrs. W, that fathers have the potential to make great primary caregivers when they choose to do so. And you're right that a WS doesn't always give the appropriate attention to the children's best interest. Unfortunately, BOTH of these good folks have a WS history to deal with that has caused damage to the family dynamic, so what then?


I happened to catch a post by Viking on another website a day or two before her moved out. I told him at the time he'd be better off to work it from the inside, but I'm guessing he may have felt committed to proceeding with the separation. Having made that decision though, I think if I was his wife, I would expect him to uphold it as a matter of keeping his word. Again, that's just me trying to 'walk a mile'.

I do think that there's hope for negotiation here though. The financial situation seems to demand that there be some problem-solving done very soon. I imagine his wife might be motivated to preserving the family's lifestyle, even if she won't agree to receive him back as a husband yet.

Honestly, I think there are one of two things that keep a woman in an rocky marriage. One is financial security, the other is love. I think maybe BOTH of these elements are at work here. Certainly, she likes her children to have the best lifestyle possible. But I think there's still love here too. She's still talking to him. She's still allowing him into the inner circle. And it's been two or three years since his last incident of infidelity. I have to wonder if she must've been trying to find a way to forgive him during that time.

I have a friend who stayed in it for two years after her husband cheated. In her situation, it really was love that motivated her to try for so long. She wanted to make it work.... but in the end, her husband couldn't regain her trust.

You know, in talking to her and comparing our experiences, my husband did everything right, and hers did everything wrong. My husband opened the door to my cage. He reassured me at every turn. He would've done ANYTHING to make it right and make me happy again, even if that meant letting me go.

My friend's husband was truly sorry too, much as my own husband was. He's not a bad guy, in fact... he's a pretty nice guy. But somewhere in the back of his mind my friend felt like he EXPECTED her to forgive him, as if forgiveness was owed to him somehow. And it wasn't. He broke his vows and exposed her to potential STDs in the process. If she wanted to end the marriage, she had an absolute right to do so. But even so, she gave him the opportunity to make it right. He had a chance to put her first in his life, to prioritize her need for reassurance, and to make her feel loved. But in the end, I think maybe he was so wrapped up in his own emotional pain that he couldn't really focus his attention on hers.

I don't think we can assume that Viking has fallen into the same pitfall of 'entitlement to forgiveness' that my friend's husband fell into. But on the other hand, I don't think we can assume he hasn't either. As a potential hazard, I just think maybe it's something for him to be mindful of.

I think you're still qualifying, Viking. I don't say that to be mean or critical. I just think it's something that you've got to face if you're going to be successful. You wife could just as easily cite a "because" as you did in order to justify her position.

On a side-note, I'm wondering if you've read The Five Love Languages? 'Acts of service' seems to be a high priority for you in terms of ENs. You seem to be showing your love for your family by doing things for them. I'm wondering if you could gain some ground by speaking to your wife more in her love language.

I don't buy into the concept lock, stock, and barrel.... but maybe there's something to be gained in showing your love in terms that she recognizes more readily. Just a thought.

LadeyJane... thank you so much for your post. Your exactly right that I wanted to her your perspective on the question and let me assure you its not to find out how to defend or defeat a postion as strong as yours, its me trying to understand what my wife is feeling and how I can do things with love and respect.

I have asked for forgiveness not demanded it.

I have read 5 langurages, HNHN, SAA, 7 secrets, a ton of post, I have interacted with friends that have gone through similiar things, I have prayed, I haved talked to church lay leaders. I have reflected and dissected my feeling, my reasonings and my emotions.

Whenever I tell someone our story I include my infadelity as a cause of her current actions. I take owneship of my failures as a husband and friend.

I have gotten us into MC and will continue to go

Our MC asked about if we read 5 languages, I have... all the books have been sitting on her night stand untouched.

I have done the EN questionaire for me and her, I realize that service is not her language, its conversations, affection and trust.... I offer that where she will allow me.

Since I can't get her to open up to me, I am trying to get insight on how to work through this.

viking, you are doing a good job, and I applaud for looking into primary custody. As long as she is in the depths of an affair, she is not a fit parent. Fighting for primary custody and reentrance into your own home, via the legal system, will likely be a huge wake up call for her. And the best thing for your children. You are the only sane adult in their lives presently and they need their father.

She needs to feel the pressure from the consequences of her affair by taking strong legal action. But, this should not be something that YOU negotiate directly with her. [never negotiate with a foghorn] This should be something that your ATTORNEY negotiates for you. You should stay out of negotiations.

Let him carry the baseball bat that smacks her up side of the head while you work on protecting your children from a fogged out WS. He can be the bad guy, you be the good guy. One of the most effective moves you could make would be to get back into your house. As we have already discussed, while it was a BAD idea to move, it would be even worse to adhere to a bad promise. The only thing worse than making a bad promise, is KEEPING a bad promise.


LadyJane, you seem to be under the illusion that two wrongs make a right. Of course he has a right to expect to that his spouse will be faithful. His visitation of a prositute 2 years ago does not entitle her to have an affair. He has made amends for that by confessing his crime and staying faithful. He has paid for his crime. His past infidelity has NO BEARING on how he should handle his wife's affair. And I can't imagine why you continually and incessantly beat him up over it or try to convince him he is not good enough to fight for his family. It is irrelevant to this issue and changes nothing in how he addresses her affair.


No, her affair is not "history." It is CURRENT. His past visitation to a prostitute is "history" and has no bearing here. He did not drag his children into an affair, she did. He did not bust up his family and kick her out; she did. It is her fitness that is in question TODAY. We are dealing with TODAY.


But that would not be up to you. You don't get to make that decision in a court action, that is up to the judge to decide based on who he deems the most fit parent. Nor does his W get to decide that. It is out of her hands.

LadyJane, I cannot imagine why you insist on busting his balls for visiting a prostitute 2 years ago. That has absolutely no bearing on how he should handle his wife's affair today. He has to deal with the PRESENT STATE of circumstances in order to save his marriage and there are no circumstances here that would warrant not using all the tools at his disposal. He does not wear a SCARLET LETTER, he is not a PERMANTLY MARKED, IMPAIRED man. He did a terrible thing and has paid for his crimes. Nothing in the past absolves him of his responsibility to save his marriage and family from this sleazy affair.

BRAVO! Outstanding, honest post, MrsW. What MrsViking needs to feel, desperately, are those consequences that will wake her up. She has placed her children in an unstable, immoral environment in order to accommodate her affair. It is the responsibility of viking, as their father, to PROTECT them from her.

The children should never be sacrificed on the altar of some weird APPEASEMENT scheme. Plan A does not stand for APPEASEMENT after all. It is designed to bust up the affair by applying GREAT PRESSURE.

And that is exactly what viking is doing here: APPLYING PRESSURE. <----that is how you will wake her up, viking, so stick to your plan, my friend!

I am almost at the point of applying plan b to her.

I sent her a letter friday about letting me back into the house with boundaries, its posted on my other thread.

Today we still go back around how she wasn't having an emotional affair with either OM#1 or OM#2.

OM#2 is a friend of her's and she applied fantasy land onto him.... I exposed to him and this is part of what he sent back

"........At first my conversations with WS were the norm...excited to talk to an old friend and share a few stories. WW and I (when in touch) have great (amusing) conversations and have often served as mutual confidants. However, over the last couple of weeks she seems to have been quite assertvie and persistent in calling and/or emailing. I have been on vacation for the last two weeks and upon returing home this morning I checked my voice mail and had a few from WW. I didn't realize the potential danger of our "friendly" conversations until this morning. My voiced concern has obviously been misconstrued.

WW is hurting, and it seems to me that she may be looking for a male figure, whom she admires and respects, to shield her from the pain she is trying to bury. As long as she doesn't have to confront the issue...then it doesn't exist. I am certain you understand the psychological impact of the emotional rollercoaster she's riding."

So she is mad and upset now that in interferred with her friendship

by the way here is the Plan B letter.... might get delivered today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Dearest Wife,

I write this letter with a heavy heart, my soul and spirits are at their lowest points ever. Over the past year I have tried to be a better husband and fix the problems from the past. I provided you with all the material items you wanted but I didn’t provide you with a strong husband and friend. Though I have seen my error and truly want to fix it, you have lost your love for me. I would first like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I have made many mistakes in the past that can not be changed. I have made it clear to everyone that my time with my family, especially for my precious wife, is and will be my main focus. You will always come first.

Since August, I've been trying to give you hope for the marriage by learning how to be a better husband to you. To give you hope that you could return to a marriage that you wanted, and for us to build our family together, but past few months have been the most difficult time of my life. Unfortunately, before I lose any more of the thoughts and feelings of what once us, I must take some drastic steps.

I feel I must break off all contact with you. I will avoid seeing you or talking to you or communicating with you in any way. I would also like any of the regular communications between us to be handled through a mutual friend or relative of your choice. I will receive email and text messages, but will not respond. I will continue to call the girls and will be there for them as we have already agreed upon. Since we can not agree on certain martial items like finances, residency, and custody I will have ATTY , Attorney at Law, contact you to about setting up any arrangements.

WIFE, as you know I am still willing to do whatever it takes to correct the mistakes that we have made in the past and make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. I will continue to be a very strong and active part of the girls lives, and I will be trust and honor you as an equal part of this marriage. If you have any emergency matters, you can always call me or email me at any time.

I will be willing to discuss our future together as soon as you are willing to start work on our marriage and are willing to construct a plan to build a foundation for our marriage. Until that time I will continue to pray for our family and us.
I still love you today

Can I suggest you hold off on this for awhile? I think a much better plan would be to continue to meet her needs while at the same time letting her understand that there will be serious legal ramifications to her actions.

I think the very most effective thing you could do is get back in your house so you can work on becoming that male figure she is seeking.

At this point, if you go into Plan B, she will only be relieved because you wont be annoying her anymore while she seeks out a new boyfriend.

Anyway, at the very least wait until you have talked to Longhorn about this. He has followed your situation and has a good grasp of MB principles. I would be very interested to see his viewpoint.

Yeah I understand the challenge of going to Plan B right now or not... I just think that any legal action will just push her deeper into the fog....but if that is what it takes.

I know my wife is a great person and equally good parent but if it comes down to it I don't see myself any different than her in ability to care for them, and I have more stability in my life, work and life that she right now doesn't have.

viking, legal action usually has the effect of a much needed cold splash of water. It can WAKE HER UP to realize there will be consequences. It has an enormous eye opening effect on a WS.

I give you much more credit that you do in your ability as a parent. You did not have an affair and allow it to disrupt your family, SHE DID unfortunately. So, please look at this realistically and realize that she is not a good parent right now. She may be under normal circumstances, but the reality is that she is not RIGHT NOW.

I don't think you should go to Plan B, Viking. I agree with ML that you'd be kind of giving your wife what she wants in some respects. You want your Plan B to have a vacuum effect emotionally. You want her to miss you.

I think if I were you, I'd call the Harley's and get an expert assessment of where you ought to be in your plan. Your financial situation has become strained, and maybe SH could give you some alternative ideas that wouldn't require the intervention of the court system. The fee for the consult would be less than what you'd spend taking her to court. And you'll have peace of mind knowing that you're using the MB program to it's best effect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thank You....

I know my wife well enough that she is only thinking about controlling the sitch, I like how she reverses everything. She calls me controlling, when she is try to control me. She says I am threatening when she is threatening me.

So I was reveiwing some legal options for me in North Carolina and I can get a magistrate to order me back into the house without going into any custody battle... my concern is that my wife may try to remove the kids from the house and stay at the inlaws if that happens. That is what I have to ask the attorney next is how to do that.

I don't think I ever suggested that "two wrongs make a right", ML. And I agree, you are absolutely correct when you say, "His visitation of a prositute 2 years ago does not entitle her to have an affair". What it does entitle her to.... is a DIVORCE in most states. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I don't understand why this lady's concerns haven't been taken into consideration. Any other BS would find support even if she wasn't posting here herself. The fact that she's been a recent WS doesn't negate her previous BS status in my mind. She's been just as wronged as her husband has. They've BOTH made mistakes, they've BOTH been hurt, and they BOTH have wounds to heal. Ramping up the acrimony doesn't make sense to me. IF the EA is still ongoing, I think it's entirely possible for Viking to end the affair without permanently alienating his wife.

I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinion, ML. And I thought it over for a long while before posting to him again. But I don't think it really helps him to get just one perspective. I'm not "busting his balls". I'm just offering another viewpoint... hopefully one that will give him some insight into the way another woman might interpret his actions. Will his wife view it your way? ...or my way? Maybe neither. Maybe somebody else will give him another perspective that's closer to hers. Who knows.

Back before all the trouble began, was there any kind of technique that you two used to solve your differences of opinion so that neither of you turned it on the other? How did you work out your disagreements before?


That's what I would do if I were her. So, I think your attorney is going to have to give you some input on that.

It would be soooooo much better if she'd agree to let you come back without a court order. Will she meet you for an indepth review of finances? Would she be amenable to helping you plan a 6-month fianancial strategy? You don't have to press her for permanent solutions. You just need your foot in the door so you can make some headway emotionally with your Plan A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I prefer that and it may still happen and I will do my best to Plan A her and be there for her.

I agree that she has the choice for a divorce, so do I.

Like any spouse I had and have the choice to decide to give up and walk away and try and take the kids - for good reason's or out of spite.

let me assure you that is not what I am trying to do. I am trying to keep my family together... right now my biggest concern is how I come up with over 700 a month because of two households.... she knows where we are financially, she has heard my committement, she has seen my committement.

I have seen her change when I apply MB principals and really work on my communication and delivery of my feelings and thoughts.... but she flows back into the fog if I press anything with her.

Maybe you could start a dialogue by asking her to submit a proposal on how she thinks the financial planning should go. (????)

I imagine if she sat down with pen and ink and tried to draw up a budget meeting the needs of two separate households, she'd have to face a bit of reality. What if you said to her, "Honey, I've been over and over this thing. Maybe you could take a look at it and see if there's something I'm missing. I'm worried we're going to lose the house if we don't get on the stick and address this pretty soon."

You've talked to her about it.... but has she crunched the numbers for herself? Sitting down with a budget has a way of making it difficult to evade the truth.

I have given her a budget based on two households and a budget based on us living separate... advice from our MC. So either way she is in the whole by a whole bunch... now we have been separated for 2 months and as we were separated she was saying... well I will have to go out and get a 40 hour job. She hasn't.... She is upset with me for suggesting that we cancel our pool membership for the summer - she doesn't know what she will do with the girls, if they can't go to the pool... I am thinking you need to be getting a J O B if your choice is divorce.... so that is why on the other thread and this one I believe that she needs a wake up.

You've given her two different proposals, but she hasn't offered an alternative budget of her own design yet?

Hmmmm.... let me think about that. I'll get back with you tomorrow. I have some holiday plans to get to, and I want to spend some time pondering about what might motivate me if I were in her position.

ummmm no. She has slept with him since his unfaithfulness and this is viewed as FORGIVENESS. It would be viewed in the PAST, as it should be here too. But guess what ELSE? He is NOW entitled to a divorce himself because of her affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> WHOOPS!


First off, she is NOT the BS NOW. She is the WS. We are dealing with the PRESENT, LadyJane. He is a FORMER WS. Do you understand the meaning "FORMER?" That means it is in the PAST and has no bearing on the PRESENT. The PRESENT situation is that he is the BS. She is the WS. HE is the victim. His children are the VICTIMS. She is the VICTIMIZER. That is REALITY. We must deal with REALITY in order to help him save his marriage.

This man is here to get help in saving his marriage, not to pay a pennace for past sins. His past sins do not constitute some sort of forfeiture on his part for the right to save his marriage, despite what you have recommended. [ie: you are not entitled to use the STICK of Plan A, only the carrot]


Do you understand that the "one perspective" he is here for is the MARRIAGE BUILDERS "perspective?" That is the "perspective" he needs help with. And those principles need to be applied to the PRESENT, not the past. It is futile to constantly bash him with his past sins at the EXPENSE of the PRESENT. Deal with the PRESENT, Ladyjane, not the PAST.