Hi. i have a really big problem on my hands. Many many years ago, i was engaged. My fiance was in the military and was sent into a war. He came back with serious issues and the relationship ended. I was an emotional wreck and had counseling. I ended up having to block out a lot of things just to go on. The experience changed me forever. I became very emotionally detached. Well, not long after, i met the person who i ended up marrying. It took me a long time to come to love this person, but i eventually did. We have been married for 10 years and have two kids.

Here's the problem. My ex has recently contacted me to "clear the air" and i have discovered that i am still in love with him, even after all that i was put through. I have realized that i have been missing a part of me all these years. I realized that when i married, i was just settling for the one who stayed by me. I do have feelings for my husband, but they are a "protected" kind of love, meaning a cared for feeling. There are tons of issues that I've tried to overlook for the entire marriage. These issues are not going to go away and i no longer want to continue the marriage. I want to be with my ex. I know in my heart that I was always meant to be with him and he is what i have been missing all these years.

What do i do?

Pull your head out of your butt for a start. The fog is rolling in.

1. Never see or speak with this person again.
2. Tell your husband about this
3. Read the infidelity FAQ's in my signature below
4. Purchase "Surviving an Affair" and "His Needs, Her Needs" from this site

I agree with everything BigKahuna said except I would add that you turn off the chick flicks on the A&E channel. It sounds like you have been watching some romantic mush. As far as being "meant for" this man, let me assure that you were "meant for " the man you made VOWS TO, the man you married. That is who you were "meant for."

I will tell you the "kind" of love you have for each other: it is an ADULTEROUS love based on a fantasy. It is an adulterous passion based on DECEIT and LIES that will quickly crumble once exposed to the light of reality. He is the kind of man who has such LOW REGARD for marriage that he will fool around with a married woman. That is not marriage material, my dear. That is scumbag material.

So, pull your head out of your [censored], turn off the chick flicks, and tell your H what nonsense you have been up to. And go kiss your children and ask God for forgiveness that you would even CONSIDER destroying their lives so you could act like an alley cat in heat with some man who has no respect for marriage and wants to destroy their family.

Hi wantout.

It sounds like you are very confused! You came to a good place. Please do some reading and use your head. I want to go over some of the things you said. Your wrote:


Just so I have it right. You were engaged to a man that has serious issues. He destoyed your life and you had to forget about things just to go on. And you decided he was not marriage matierial and moved on.

Now this same man has come back into your life? How romantic! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> So what you are really saying a emotionally abusive man has come back in your life to finish you off. Destroy what you have built up with your pathetic husband. I hope you realize a good man would not come back and destroy a marriage. I am guessing nothing has changed as far as he goes. I am guessing the war really messed him up or he was always messed up. If you think his problems magically went away you are in for a bad life.



You then married another man. He has given you 10 years and 2 children. He has supported you and given you a safe place. Not as exciting as your old Fiance. So I am guessing you think since your the mom that you should get to take his kids from him and go live with OM (other man).

Maybe your husband should get the children and you can be a part time mom. You can pay child support and see them sometimes. Not to mention destroy your husband.




So there are issues in your marriage, join the club. Think about this. What if this guy had not come back into your life. Imagine for a minute that your husband got a call from an old girlfriend. He then started thinking about her and thought about leaving you. He would probably tell his old girlfriend his wife "Protects her feelings for him" and his wife only has a cared for feeling for him. Now can you imagine if he left you and wanted to take your kids and home away also. What would you think of your life then??

As I told someone last week I know of 4 women who left their husbands for another man. Not one of these women are happy. As a matter of fact 3 of them I talk to once in a while. They had good decent husbands but they wanted to be with their "Soul Mate" and ditched everything. I guess it turns out that OM that steal other mens wives are really not very good boyfriends or husbands.

All of these women would take their old lives back in a hearbeat. 3 of the guys are married again and the other guy is me.My wife cheated on me and also caused me to file for divorce. I can assure you she does not want our marriage to end. It is going to end because I cannot get over the betrayal. We had talked early in our marriage and she knew if she cheated I would end it. My point is you are making a big mistake.

Is this guy married? Then 2 families will be destoyed and eventually you will be destroyed. This guy did it to you before and he is about to destroy your life again. But this time it will be your fault not his. You are betraying your husband and then you will deserve what happens to you.

[b]Talk to your husband about this guy. Send a no contact letter and get some counseling for your marrige. I pray to god you have not already slept with him again but you are about to ruin your own life. You made "Vows" not to do this. I pray you make the right decision.

wow. such nice advice. i did ask for it though. let me clear some things up.

I haven't slept with my ex. It was 15 years ago, so i was 16 at the time he and i were engaged. He did and still does have PTSD, but he is a lot better. He never married.

Another thing, my husband knows that i have feelings for that guy and also knows that no matter how much it will hurt me, i'd never take the kids from him. They are everything to him. i am the one that is leaving the home, not him. I am not happy at all. I haven't been happy for a very, very long time. I may have been content over the years, but the one i lost has ALWAYS been on my mind.

The misunderstanding wasn't one, really. He just broke up with me and never told me why. And, he wasn't emotionally abusive. it was just, "we need to break up." that's all. neither of us ever got closure. I was too young and just didn't try and fight for an answer.

I'm not acting like an "alley cat in heat." Again, i haven't slept with this man.

Hasn't anyone ever "settled for what was there, right then" and then came to regret it? That's what i did. I settled. I couldn't have the person i wanted to be with, so i settled for the first one to actually stay around.

Also, this man is not pressuring me to do anything. He said that he is in love with me still after all these years and will accept whatever i decide. He even told me that he didn't want to break up my family.

So, anyone have anymore advice on what I just said? And, know this...i don't watch A&E or any other chick flicks. Thanks for any advice though.

Wantout,

Why are you on a Marriage Building site if you want to leave your H?

If you're looking for support re: a relationship with your old flame, you have come to the wrong site.

I'm sorry if the above posts seemed harsh, but your words are very hurtful to both BSs and FWWs on these boards trying to make their Ms work.

So... if you "want out", can you clarify further why are you here?

Does he know as much as you've told us - total strangers?

I can believe you that your marriage is not as happy as it can be.

But I cannot believe that you're thinking with a clear mind right now. I propose you're building up your original fiance as justification for why you want out of your marriage. If it wasn't him it would be the guy you met at the grocery store last week. Greener grass.

How much effort have you put into your current marriage?

Can you stand the thought of being replaced as a mother to your kids? If not, don't you think that SOME effort ought to be expended before bailing out?

Please direct your H to this site so we can help him. He needs it.

Hi wantout,

So "for better or for worse" actually means "until I get a better offer"? Do you intend to marry boyfriend #1? What happens when he gets a better offer?

I can certainly understand that a fantasy relationship sounds a lot more appealing than the nitty-gritty-we-got-kids-and-bills-and-dishes one you have right now. Particularly a fantasy relationship that, by your own admission, you have nurtured over many years.

Wonder what your current relationship with your "settled for" H would look like if you had invested every moment you thought about your previous fiance into your current marriage? Wonder what it could look like?

I doubt that anyone here wants you to "settle" for your marriage. Marriagebuilders can help you make the relationship you have right now with your husband into the one you wish it could be.

But the only way that can happen is if you stop nurturing the fantasy - your current H simply can't live up to the life you *think* you will have with the ex-fiance who has suddenly returned to your life, telling you that he loves you but he doesn't want to break up your family.

My advice to you is to end the relationship with the ex, grieve "what could have happened," and invest *all* of your emotional energy into your marriage. Find out what your emotional needs are and those of our husband and together figure out the best way to meet those needs.

Best,

G

Here's just some of the huge red flags ...

this guy knew you when you were sixteen...
if you are telling me that you are same person you were..

emotionally and developementally that you were when sixteen...

then you got really bigger serious issues...

it is infact in my opinion, insulting to profess to love someone NOW in viewing them as the person they were when sixteen....

I thank GOD!! that I do not view life and act the same as I did when sixteen...talk about an egocentric view of the world....

and it is my opinion that he IS doing that to you...



bringing total disrpespect to YOU
your CHILDREN.,...(his opinion....abandon your children for me.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />)
bringing total disrespect to your husband....

where is his joy for you that you are married
that you have children
that you have grown and matured...

no he brings none of that...

he brings...
I LOVED you when you were sixteen...
lets run away together and pretend we are sixteen and eighteen...


and you are buy this crap...

yikes...

can you see how insulting it is to be told you are loved by someone who has NO IDEA who you are today....

how could he

he can't...

his use of the word is meaningless and empty...

he has NO idea who you are and you have NO idea who he is yet...

except that he brings great disrespect to you and great harm and danger to your family..

oh yeah...allllll in the name of love....

his love is scary bad

you got closure...he didn't want you...
for whatever reason.....

that was your closure...

not some adnauseum rationalization that can't even be the truth...
because you were young without all the life experiences to process it with...

it's all bull.....

it's all influenced from years post break up...

and it's all what you WANT TO HEAR....cause that's what we grownups learn to do...
especially predators......
like he is...

when I seek out old friends...it's to validate and celebrate who they are today...

not to plant seeds of doubt and misery in to their present world...

not to drag them back to highschool for Gods' sake...

i am the one that is leaving the home, not him.

so your plan it to teach your children that people are replacable...

you will bring chaos and fear in to their worlds...

you will teach them that daddies have no meaning and are replacable based on our feelings....

that they will learn to lay awake at night fearing that if they misplease you ....they too like daddy will be replaced...

they are incapable of processing your need for happiness...
developementally it's not even part of their thought process....

yet you will bring in to their world a strange man..
and make him instant daddy...

a stranger....

and force them to split their holidays and their vacations and their lives...

this is the cross road you stand on..

and your marital issues by your own admission are ones that you have done nothing to change...

just accepted them....
and kept a memory alive.....of a stranger you once knew...

so the truth is you didn't settle
you chose
and
created the marriage you have today...

not a victim at all....

how can anything but chaos and pain come from any of this...

why wouldn't you create the marriage you desire with the man you married.....

instead of doing nothing but running away...

your legacy to your children is not looking very nice these days...

you may want to re-group and re-think what is the priority here...

ARK

WO,
One "chick flick" you might WANT to rent is "Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood." One of the characters spends decades pining for the one "true love of her life" who slipped away... and barely tollerating the man she "settled for" instead... only to realize late in life what a gem of a man she was married to all along. Just a thought.
--SC

wantout -


I don't see one word in this paragraph that addresses your husband's feelings about you. I see a lot of justification to do what you want to do.

I will tell you up front that I have a somewhat skewed view of these situations, being a BS (betrayed spouse). I can also tell you that, having heard similar words from my wife (I care for you, I don't want to hurt you) really irks me.

If you care for someone, you don't hurt them. What you want to do will, at the very least, hurt your kids. I'm wiling to bet that it'll hurt your husband - and it'll hurt you as well.

You have a golden opportunity here - the chance to NOT do something that will have life-long ramifications for you, your husband, and your kids.

I can think of no worse disresepectful judgement than for one spouse to tell another that leaving the marriage for another person (their "soulmate") is for the best for all concerned.

It's the easy path. Nothing in life of any value or worth is every easy. For the sake of your kids, yourself, your husband, and even your ex-fiance, stay in your marriage.


How magnamous of him. What he's really telling you is that he wants you, but doesn't want to sully his hands by breaking up your family. If he truly didn't want to break up your family, he'd disappear and leave you alone. He'd respect you, and your marriage.

I can identify with what your husband is about to go through if you continue this path. I heard similar things from my wife, and the OM (who was a friend, or so I thought) also claimed to have my marriage's interest at heart - but that sure didn't stop him from pursuing my wife.

As long as your intent (or appear intent) to leave your marriage, you will not get a warm welcome here. You may very well feel attacked or picked-on. The people on this forum are pro-marriage, and almost all of them have experienced infedility as either the BS or WS. They know the pain you're heading for, and they want nothing more than to prevent yet another person from falling into that pit. Listen to them.

""He even told me that he didn't want to break up my family. ""

So why does he want then???? Sound to me he does want to break up your family!! please dont fall in to this Puppy love and destroy your family.I to have fomnd memories of my first love. Like a said is a fond memoey, some memorys is just ment to stay memories..God i just hate Those people that keeps coming up from woodwork and put ideas ,and destoying familes, becuse the years laite regret braking up

Hi wantout -

I'm writing from the experience of being a former wayward wife (FWW) with an old boyfriend (BF). Destroying the family that you have been building for 10 years (as an adult) to return to a failed relationship from the past (as a teenager) will be the gravest mistake of your life. Think of the warnings on this board along the lines of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." You are in the fortunate place now of being able to work on your marriage (M) BEFORE making a tremendous mistake.

"I know in my heart that I was always meant to be with him and he is what i have been missing all these years."

The past is gone - leave it there. Feelings like this for a man other than your husband (H) are "fog" - fantasy, not reality, not healthy, not constructive. So is wanting to leave your children for the other man (OM).

Your H is "the one who stayed by me."
Staying by you is love - true love.

"cared for feeling."
This is your H loving you.

"There are tons of issues that I've tried to overlook for the entire marriage."

Stop overlooking these issues - deal with them. Read His Needs Her Needs, talk honestly with your H, get marriage counseling (MC). If, after sincerely working on your M in every way you can, using every healthy resource you can find, you still want out of the M, you can know that you did everything you could to save your family. Be healthy, though, and if you must get divorced (D), wait until after the D to begin dating anyone.

God bless,
Rose

i dont chime in too often, but here goes....

everything that is being told to you here is all sound advice...

but what you are hearing and reading is just abunch of jumbled words..."wha wha wha whaaaaa wha wha!!"

my daughter is 16....THANK GAWD she is not a parent or wife and is living a 16 year olds life and not making tough decisions yet based on a 16 year old feelings....

my opinion is that YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED AND EMBARRASED by what you are considering....

i am living through a divorce and raising two kids on a "part time" basis after my X did what you are wanting to do....DIVORCE sucks regardless of the reasons it happens!!

but.......

human nature is pretty predictable....

so.....

you will run off....make poor choices....wreck your family and ruin your childrens lives and destroy their INNOCENCE...

all in the name of "love"...

re-write all your history, make your husband a bad spouse and poor father....paint him in a very bad light....

all to justify your lusts and IMMATURE outlook on life...

and.....

you will come back to this site....

sometime in the future....

looking for advice on how to save a broken marriage that YOU and only YOU are responsible for destroying....



ENJOY the ride!!!!

I am sorry if you thought what I said was harsh. I am trying to help you because I am pretty sure I know what your future is going to be.

Let me tell you a little bit about my mother. She had some mental issues and treated my dad like crap. She then ended up leaving my dad because she was not "Happy". She settled for him and wanted her freedom and happiness. She was cheating on him so she left everything.

I have not seen her since she walked out the door. She calls me every few years or sends me a letter. I am always amazed at how bitter she is about life. I told her not to ever contact me again because of how nasty she is about my dead father. The guy for the rest of his life never said a bad thing about her.

For some reason she hated him even though she abandoned all her children and walked out on him. I asked her why she hated him so much? She left him and her children forever and she had decades to make herself happy but she was even more bitter than ever after all of these years. The grass always looks greener on the other side.

This OM does go after married women. You will not be the last. I could say all sorts of things but you have to live your life. I told my wife the same things but she didn't listen either.

If you pursue this what will probably happen is your poor husband will be hurt. One day he will meet another woman and god willing get married again. Then his children will call her mom and forget about the woman that just had to find her soul mate.

This is like watching a car accident that is going to happen but not being able to stop it. I really wish you and your husband happiness but you will regret this.

I called and asked my wife (FeelingFoolish on this board) to log on and tell you our story from her perspective.

When I read this, all kinds of emotions came storming back, because seven years ago, she could have written what you did about the ex, closure, and her feelings about me.

She and I are now so close, we read each other's minds practically. She recommitted to our marriage, and I did as well after my PA two years ago. We are both blown away by how much we love each other. Contrast this with seven years ago, when she was horribly sad, feeling no closure, told me she was leaving me, she had never loved me, had settled for me, and needed closure.

Everyone here is trying desperately to help you. Don't let anyone's tough love turn you off to the advice. That is the 16-YO inside of you saying, "I want what I want what I want what I want!!!!" Take a deep breath, relax, and realize where these feelings are coming from. I think you will realize that you truly never did resolve this past hurt, but that trying to go back there will not meet your expectations. Please think about doing as my wife did, tell your H how you feel, tell him you have this old hurt that is making you crazy and that you would love him forever if he could help you resolve all of this.

Remember your wedding day? Not the guests or the ceremony, not the party or your dress, remember how you felt about your H that day? Remember what you promised him? I know you meant it. Trust him to keep his promise and to help you through this. The results are A W E S O M E !!!

Wow ... sorry for the name calling and insults... there seems to be a few that will always fail to see the true question in the post.

ANYWAY....

I think on some level...we all go through this at some point. It seems that you've taken two situations..that don't belong together...and tried to make a whole piece out of them.

These feelings that you have ...for old BF...that you BELIEVE to be lacking in your own marriage... aren't starry eyed emotions.

I promise you...that if you read up on this site...and figure out that MANY MANY COUPLES...fall OUT of love... you can absolutely fall BACK in love with your H....and have a wonderful, fulfilling, loving, committed relationship with him...and be thankful and happy for having this man in your life.

It's going to take some work on both your parts.

Obviously you're here....because you want help. If you were looking to leave your marriage, and live "happily every after" with your highschool boyfriend...you could have googled much more appropriate sites.

Hang around... get familiar with the concepts here. If you apply some of these techniques to your marriage... you'll never be unhappy with the state of your marriage again.

I'm glad you reached out for help before things got really out of control.

It's going to take a lot of effort on your part... to stop gravitating towards old BF...but your children, and your husband... deserve a strong, committed effort on your part first.

Give this a try. You have NOTHING to lose, and everything to gain.

Dear Wantout,

You have had much good advice, but I wanted to add one other thought:

Perhaps if you think back to your wedding day as Ahnold has suggested, you'll think something like, "I knew that day I shouldn't have married my husband," or "I knew then that I was settling, but I felt it was too late to back out."

Perhaps you will think that. If so, I would strongly ask you to consider that our feelings and the thoughts that spring from them are often very fickle. Having feelings of being "in love" are not necessarily evidence of actually BEING in a loving relationship. I do not believe those feelings are the litmus test for the legitimacy of a marriage, and I believe this is one of the greatest mistakes western culture makes regarding love, marriage, and the family.

Much more is at stake, Wantout. Your best self knows this. And I think, when your best self wins out, you may be very surprised to find yourself "in love" - with your husband and the father of your children.

MAzingrace

I completely agree with MAzinggrace. Have you read the articles on emotional needs? I feel the most loved, and loving feelings, when my beautiful W is fulfilling my needs. I feel them also when I fulfill hers, because it creates this wonderful hurricane of love, giving back and forth.

Have you told your husband what you need to feel loved?

Gosh, we haven't heard every single one of the below quotes before. No, not even in Harley's books or ALL OVER THIS BOARD.


AKA Revisionist History


Even when you said "I do at Your Wedding" and "Made Love to Your Husband" and "And Celebrated Your First Baby" and "etc. etc. etc."


You REALLY should read the articles before writing this stuff. It will show you how very typical your claims are, uncanny.

I am a Betrayes Spouse. You came here because deep down you KNOW that what you want to do is WRONG.

Your HUSBAND, who you apparently should get to know better, will be crushed. It will be like a death to him EVERY DAY he wakes up knowing that you are unfaithful. EVERY TIME you leave he will die a little more inside until he is truly dead.

Do you want to be a murderer? Do you want to kill the man that loves you for who you are just so you can live out a fantasy about a relationship that MIGHT have existed?

Tell your husband that this man has contacted you. Draw up a NO CONTACT letter and drop it. You want romance? There is a man waiting to give you all you want, you just have to convince him/ set up a counseling session with Harley et al.

My WS is having a physical affair. It kills me, but I still am trying to make things work. Does that sound like someone who doesn't place her first? Or someone who is selfish? I bet your H is very much the same.

You haven't been happy? Yeah right, try: you don't know how to be content with the wonderful life you have. Don't believe me, ask someone who has had to leave Somalia or Dharfur.

WantOut,

Since you are obviously not here to try and save your marriage, I'll tell you exactly what you are in for when you pursue this illicit relationship:

- You will find that the man you're fantasizing about isn't everything you had hoped for.

- You will then waffle back and forth between having your husband meet some of your needs and the OM meeting some. Thereby torchering your husband on top of devistating him by leaving him. How nice for him, but thats right, you only care about how you're feeling.

- Your husband will tell you your children are hurting and they've started demonstating behavioral and perhaps physical problems, but you will deny it has anything to do with your adultery and selfish behavior.

- You'll go along like this, fence sitting, for about 2 years until you have created a wake of destruction behind you that includes everyone you ever loved. But you will continue to deny it has anything to do with your infidelity.

- You may or may not end up with the OM and whats most important is you will have the same problems you started out with in any relationship you are in because you are trying to change everything around you instead of dealing with what is really the problem, it being WITHIN YOU.

The above may vary a bit but bascially its what you're headed for. If you doubt it, read the articles and posts ... or not.

Here's the gig WO, even if you change the players in your life...ie swapping your FAITHFUL husband for an OM...YOUR life will remain the SAME until YOU change YOU...The fact that you want to go back to a relationship from your youth speaks VOLUMES about your being stuck developmentally...Take it from someone who did pretty close to the same thing that you are contemplating...You can't run from yourself...It's a wherever you go, there you are situation...Tell your husband what's going on and begin working on YOU today!!!

Mrs. W

I became very emotionally detached.

You still are ....

You are emotionally detached from yourself & you are seeking to be "found" to yourself in a new and less challenging relationship. A childish relationship that never developed beyond the "we were meant for each other" adolescent level.


NO ONE finds "parts" of themselves in another person ... this is a very immature notion.



again ... teenage angst ...

actually, what you have been missing all these years is still missing ... it's YOU .... other people do not "complete" you ... what happends if they no longer want to complete you??? YOU fall apart ... as evidenced by ~~~>

Stick with your husband sweetie ... he's not the most exciting man on the planet, but he won't use you & then dump you .... OM WILL DUMP YOU ....

why? you ask ...

because that's what he does ... he's not a keeper .... he's using you ... and you're just ripe to be picked

Pep

know what ....


ask your husband to run a background check on OM .... he's not clean ... he's got some sort of heavy baggage ... I'm certain

what's the longest he's been in one job?

Pep

WantOut's MB post title 2+ years from now:

"Lost my loving husband many years ago due to misunderstanding, but now I want him back"

Wantout,

You could fall in love with Bozo the Clown if you both started meeting each others emotional needs.

Try reading and implementing Harley's Basic Concepts on this site.

You can fall in love with your loyal husband.

You think the advice you have received is harsh and painful? You ain't seen nothing yet. If you do destroy your life and marriage with this scumbag OM you will really know pain.

This sounds like something which might have been written by Chris' wife Donna 7-8 years ago... and the oldtimers know how that turned out.

I hope Chris is doing well...

... and wantout, beneath the rightful indignation of some of the replies is very, very good advice... 1) No Contact and 2) read everything on this site.

**edit**...I just want to say...DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR THE WORDS OR BEHAVIOR OF OTHER ADULTS!!! *SCREAM* Why are you apologising to someone who is about to so callously and cruelly toss aside her family??? THAT makes me want to apologise for your ignorance!!! AND, I say that whatever is said to wantout there is pretty much FAIR GAME, number one...And number two, and even more glaringly obvious, NOT UP TO Betrayed In Jersey in ANY WAY, SHAPE or FORM!!!

Sorry Folkses...My idiot tolerance level is set on Non Existant...

You have no idea what you are proposing will do to your children. What it will do to your relationship with them. What contempt they will hold you in.

You would be very smart to spend some time looking into the EN questionairre....reading 'More than Friends', getting some good pro-marriage counseling.

I have personally seen at least two posters quit this site in the last week...not for the advice they were given, but for the way in which it was delivered.

Beating up on others won't make your pain go away, folks. It just makes you look like you can't handle your anger. If someone who was actually trying to get help leaves as a result, what good are you doing?

Just my humble opinion.

My husband went home from college for a funeral. While there, he expected to see his girl friend. They'd been dating for a couple of years. They had a sexual relationship. They were engaged.

What he got was a 'we're over"

No explanation.

4 years later, he married me.

23 years later, she contacted him. She'd missed him.

He wanted 'closure' wanted to know why she dumped him all those years ago.

Too bad he didn't tell me about it, too bad he didn't ask for help.

6 months later, I found out they had been communicating, had renewed the relationship, had become physical.

My world fell apart.

He realized during this time, he was better off with me. He was one of the FWS who stopped the A on his own. The guilt was awful.

It is said you can't go home, again. You are not the same person you were, hopefully. He is not the same either.

The 16 year old within you is in love with him. The adult woman that you are now is not. Do not fool yourself.

If you don't feel in love with your husband- then it is your responsibility to make that happen.

Read the book His Needs Her Needs. Make an effort to meet his needs, ask him to read the book with you and both of you take the test and start meeting one another's needs.

Send a letter to this person and ask him to never contact you again. Enforce that.

Do not disgrace your self- do not lower your standards.

Do not destroy your family.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />THANK YOU BEHAVIOR POLICE!!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You cannot dictate the tone of other people's posts, nor can you decide what will or will not be helpful to someone else...

Someone who wants help will NOT leave based on a 2 x 4...Don't believe it? Ask 2BNormal...That lady has come a LONG way, and I would bet that she's glad for the 2 x 4's she received here...I know that I'm sure glad for the ones that I received!!!

Mrs. W

My H and his HS girlfriend experimented with their lost "first love" during a HS reunion and the next 9 months. She became pregnant. I got cancer and found out about his A and soon to be child, during radiation therapy. Pure devastation! Agony for me and our family.

2-1/2 years later we are recovering, but we will never be the same. Either of us. And now we are tied to OW forever because of OC and paying tons of $$$ for CS. I am not sure you can ever truly recover from something like this.

No good can come from your intended course. Only pain, sorrow and guilt. Don't do it!!

Wow. Read what I said again. I was stating an opinion. I fail to see where I told anyone what to do. You, in your post are telling ME what is okay or not okay to say, however, not to mention the name calling. On top of that, you tell me that I cannot decide what will or will not be helpful to others, and then contrary to your words, proceed to point out that bashing someone is helpful? Then you decide that everyone who leaves based on this rough treatment didn't really want help?????????

If you don't like "behavior police," why are you doing it?

Sheesh.

Good lord, Ahnold. How long have you been here? A WEEK? You've seen people leave already? Gosh, I would think you'd be busy WORKING ON YOUR OWN ISSUES rather than keeping track of who took their toys and ran home.

Hey wantout, Welcome to MB. You've come to the right place IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. The question is: DO YOU?

Thing you might have noticed is that this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS... and that's what this site is about. Some of us have been here for years and have different experiences ... some, like me, tell stories of what NOT to do. I've made a lot of mistakes in my time... and you're about to make a doozie if you go to this ex of yours.

Listen to what everyone is telling you...

You don't know this man - not really. The young man he was is NOT the man he is today.

Your H deserves a devoted wife - not one with a divided heart.

You're bored. You're lonely. You're feeling unloved. You're probably having a mid-life crisis of some kind. I would know, I had one and busted my life up into a million pieces. I'm still trying to put myself back together and make amends to the people I harmed (and at times it never seems to be enough - that's the cross I bear).

Wantout. Your name says it all... let's get it changed to Wantafantastic Marriage with my Husband.

roflmao!! You mean if I had an older date and a higher post count, I would be credible like you are? *snicker*

Not that you care, but I am working on myself. I am doing penance for my sin by trying to help people to avoid the same pain. I have compassion for both betrayed spouses and *gasp* wayward spouses as well.

How is noticing something "keeping track"?

Stop baiting me. If you folks get your jollies by beating up on wayward spouses, you should put some kind of warning in your sig, that way you can be avoided. Later.

Look at my bio, A. I ***was*** a WS. Laugh your a$$ off if it makes you feel better, but I wasn't being funny.

Also, I'm not baiting you.

Did you READ what I said to wantout? Sheesh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! NewBeginningII and I are FWSes!!!

Mrs. W

I'm sure he'll be back, S.

After all, he is Ahnold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I did read what you said to her, and I thought it was good advice.

Here is MY point...did SHE read it...I doubt it, I think she is long gone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This is what I am angry about. I am hurting for her and her husband, and there is great advice here, and she may not ever see it now.

You were right lol. So I have a rep?

"BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! NewBeginningII and I are FWSes!!!"

I apologize, my mistake. I am a bit sensitive about a perception I have that this is happening. I still think you were contradicting yourself, though. In my humble opinion.

I have no idea how you think anyone is contradicting themselves...

Look, bud, I've been where you are. I've been the biggest bleeding heart going... and I still am, to some extent. But one thing I truly believe now that I didn't before...

In the fog, soft voices can't be heard and quiet gestures not seen -- you need a horn and a foglight. That's just the way it is.

It's cool Ahnold...Right now, I see you as still identifying with the WS mode of thought...The FWS mode takes a while-you'll get there I'm sure...What you have to understand is the KINDEST thing that can be done here is to give Wantout the cold, hard, ugly truth about what she is contemplating...

Btw, I'm not dictating HOW you go about telling Wantout the score here...THAT is up to you, of course...

Mrs. W

And NO ONE here is responsible for what she CHOOSES to do but HER...Ya dig?

Mrs. W

Ahnold,

If she is gone, then the reason is NOT what people here have said to her. It is what they did NOT say to her, and which was that her decision to leave will hurt many people including herself.

This is a marriage building site and to date she has indicated no interest in considering her marriage. So she left. Big deal, people spent a lot of time posting to her, and she got the REAL response she should have gotten.

There is not a single poster on this thread that would not help her if she asked for it, but she asked for nothing and simply wanted approval. She did not get it, and she left.

Perhaps she will come back, but until something changes in her thinking and probably ONLY a 2x4 will get through, there is nothing here for her.

Most of the people here have consider experience in these matters and oddly enough the 2x4 is probably the ONLY thing that will get through the fog at this point.

We'll see if she comes back. If she does she will get help if she wants it. Even an oldy like WhoDat came out of lurkdom to post to her.

Please consider these things.

JL

I understand the tough love point, and accept in SOME cases it works.

I f I could figure out how, I would put that I am a FWH and a FBH in my signature. My A was two years ago. I am not looking for sympathy, I am not justifying my act, I am ashamed of it. I am enmeshed in the most amazing, wonderful, loving marriage I have ever heard of! I admitted to my affair a week ago because the deep love DW and I have for each other gave me the inner strength to do so. We are recovering.

Trust me, I do not want to "think like a WS" so please tell me why you think that?

I am not only a FWS, I am also a FBS. This lady is doing almost exactly what my DW did seven years ago, almost exactly! I know how DW would have reacted had she come here and gotten tough love...she would not have come if she didn't want help. Though I didn't know about this site way back then, I did know that my neglect of her emotional needs led to her EA. I corrected that and treated her gently. If treating others with compassion and respect makes me a bleeding heart, then I guess I am. Someone who is feeling like crap about themselves hardly needs to be reminded of it. I am not saying to tell them "there there" and consoling them, far from it. Warning them factually of the likely outcomes of their actions is sufficient, I believe.

Mrs. W, I don't know what your intent was with your "Behavior Police" post, but please take a moment and really read my response to it. You were doing exactly what you were criticizing me for, only I was stating an opinion as to how I thought some people would react, not telling people what to do! This is why I think you were contradicting yourself. Just my opinion, you have a right to yours as well.

I appreciate your insight. I agree she is in an incredible fog bank. She did ask for help though, in the last line of her first post. She asked for it again towards the end of her second post.

Edit: I apologize if I came across as blaming any of you for her leaving. That was her choice and I hope she comes back. I don't know this woman, and I was projecting how my DW would have reacted. I am not an advocate of berating people when they ask for help, which is my point.

Peace?

Ahnold,

Go to "My Home" at the top of the page... you'll see a place to edit your sig line and put in a bio, if you'd like to do that.

As far as the rest... some people are so deep in the fog and truly cannot see or hear ANYTHING. The *only* hope they have is that fog light and horn... seriously. It may make them mad, but they *hear* it.

How I wish I'd had MB when I was headed into infidel territory... not that it would have helped (like most WS's I was he11-bent on destruction)... but it might have. Hugs and platitudes would definately NOT have helped... I know this because that's what I got from my friends. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Understand, Ahnold?

Yeah. It worked for my wife, though. Understand?

What worked for your wife?

Treating her kindly. She was deep in her fog, and I swear, this could have been her writing this 7 years ago. I treated her with respect, starting by asking for only one thing. Open book honesty, both ways, and promising not to punish her. We started talking, she started telling me what was bothering her, I listened. Over time, we worked it out. She did not need a 2 X 4.

Of course you know that five years later, in a pit of self-pity, I committed the unthinkable with my A. There have been two fantastic years since then...yeah with a huge bump in the road with my confessing it, but confessing it made it a he** of a lot easier for us to begin healing.

Ahnold,

Before the affair.

Would hugs have worked? Or did her guilt kick in with your kindness?

And listen, I was a BS (several times over) before I cheated, thirteen years later. I get that part of it. Do you think that YOUR guilt may be playing into your feelings here?

Reality set in. She started catching the OM in lies, started realizing that he was trying to manipulate her into bed. And yes, she felt guilty eventually.

While I do feel guilty, and it may be very possible that they are heightening my emotions about all of this, particularly in this case (remember I said I was projecting), I am long an advocate of treating people decently. This is part of who I am. But I also see your point that sometimes it is necessary to cut through the fog.

Edit: Sorry, forgot to completely answer your questions. Before the fog, if I had been meeting her needs, she wouldn't have despaired and started thinking about leaving. I was fat dumb and happy letting her take care of all MY needs and was ignoring her pleas for attention to hers. I was blind to this until she woke ME up by announcing she was leaving. I quickly discovered that sometime after she announced she was leaving, she had searched for and found the OM, an old boyfriend, and was corresponding with him via email, phone calls, and one meeting in a public place.

I hacked her password and took copies of all the messages. I put a keylogger on her computer and captured much of the discourse. I know what was going on.

You know, Ahnold, people who really want help doing the RIGHT THING could not be driven off by WILD HORSES. But a person who is here only to have smoke blown up their [censored] and get a pat on the back for being cruel and destructive, will RUN the first time they hear the truth.

However, the answer is not to PLY them with cute, nice sounding words just to keep them around. But rather, the compassionate thing is to give them a well time 2x4. And usually the louder the scream the closer to the target it was. This happened to be a WS who sorely needed a 2x4. If she wants help in doing the RIGHT THING, she will be back. But if she wants encouragement and support in destroying her family, she clearly came to the wrong place.

You say you have "seen people run off" in your 2 short weeks here. Let me tell you that I have seen people's lives absolutely CHANGED from a 2x4 that they recieved in this forum. And don't imagine that it comes from some "pain" on the part of the BS', it doesn't. It comes from a desire to help the person and a reaction to the injustice.

Some folks are harsher than others. I try to never mince words. Others are softspoken and that is just fine. The forum needs both, IMO. But the bottom line is we can't dictate behavior here, unless your name happens to be Tempest, Justuss, or Sage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here's what I am saying Ahnold...YOU have every right to tell Wantout that what she is doing is WRONG in the tone of your choosing...What you don't have is the right to tell others HOW to do that...Do you understand now? Tone is up to the poster ONLY...


Because you see Wantout as a VICTIM here and you are identifying with that victim...THAT is WS thinking...


Not true...WSes look EVERYWHERE for help in rationalizing their behavior...


Again, you are free to do that...Rather, you have chosen to tell folks what tone they should use in their posts...THAT is being the Behavior Police...


I'm not dictating the TONE of your posts here...I'm telling you that yours is NOT the job to police the posts of other adults for TONE...The fact that you can't see how what I'm telling you differs from what you said to others here is telling Ahnold...It is what it is-Perhaps you will understand one day soon...Relax...Listen and learn here for a while...

Mrs. W

Ahnold,

This will be my last message tonight -- but listen... a few things:

YOU have absolutely NO PART in your W's CHOICE to have an affair, just as she has NO PART in yours.

(That said, you both had a part in what caused the vulnerability of the marriage by not meeting each other's needs. Affairs are about not protecting the marriage.)

Secondly, you know as well as I do that the fog rolls in fairly early in the process of deciding to have an affair. In my case, had one of my well-meaning friends told me to pull my head out of my a$$, instead of facilitating the affair, it might have gone differently. I don't *blame* anyone but myself, but I do wish someone like me (now) would have told me what a mess it would become. That's why I tell everyone who will listen that affairs are messy, life-changing, and possibly life-destroying. Not just to the marriage, not just to the family... to YOURSELF. You are never the same person after an affair, are you?

Finally, you can treat someone very decently and still tell the truth. The truth, in the case of infidelity, is often harsh, but no more harsh than the act itself.

PS: Have you figured out how to put a sig line in your profile?

Not saying be nicey nicey. But why club someone right out of the gate before you even get a chance to see if they are receptive or not?

I believe in the 2 X 4, but not as the first approach. I use it when needed, not at the first moment of introduction. I give people a chance to listen to the facts first, treat them as I would like to be treated. If I am clubbed the first time I open my mouth, I likely won't respect your opinion much after that. Though you are right, I will hear what you said, I just won't want to deal with *you* anymore. Now, someone I know can practice tough love on me, I may not like the delivery, but I will hear the message. Later I will thank them for doing what they did to get my attention. Strangeers? Forget it. I know it's well intentioned, but coming from a stranger, I think a natural reflex is to find someone else to talk to who will tell you the same things...and not necessarily what you want to hear.

My take on this lady is different from some, I know. I am projecting, but my opinion is that she knew deep down that she was in the wrong and just needed people to tell her she was wrong...but that there could be redemption.

Since I am projecting my own feelings on this poor woman, it's probably a moot point anyway, but I have said my peace and you all have said yours. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I do agree with some of yours.

I still would like to understand how my expressing my opinion made me the "Behavior Police" and am wondering why nobody else thinks that Mrs. W's message was self-contradicting? Of why it in itself was not the "Behavior Police"? Why was this deserved?

People are quick to jump on my posts and point out where they think I have it wrong. Is it because I am not trusted because I am a new member? I just want to understand. Is there a clique here? I am not trying to be antagonistic, but this is a public forum, if I am not welcome, and you do not value my participation on this board, just say the word. I thought maybe I could heal some of my own pain by helping others, but if I can't do that here, I will find another way.

I recognize that people might have thought I was blaming them for her leaving, which I didn't intend, I was only trying to point out that people looking for a safe place to talk about their problems don't expect to get blasted when they open a dialog. No blame, just an opinion.

I appreciate the discussion all. My point about emotional needs is in line with Dr. Harley's. I don't take the blame for her EA nor do I blame her for my PA. I do take responsibility for not meeting her emotional needs, however. I recognize that I played a role in it.

And I do believe in it as a first approach because I have seen it's effectiveness. But you have to use the approach that suits you, while I use the one that suits me and the one I deem most effective. Personally, I think it is bad idea to greet cruelty with nice words, but that is your own prerogative, we each have our own posting style.

And unfortunately, we cannot control the posting styles of others, you can only control YOUR OWN posting style.

Attempting to dictate the "TONE" or POSTING STYLES of others is playing the behavior police; it is an attempt to control others. On the other hand, resisting your control is not EQUIVALENT behavior. OBJECTING to your attempt to control others is not any more self contradicting than defending one from killing you is "controlling" them. She is not trying to control you, just asking that you stop trying control others, in other words.

Telling others how to post also presumes that you are qualified to tell others how to behave, which really is very arrogant and offensive. And really - REALLY - will result in frustration because you won't be successful in that endeavor. I promise ya! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

Ahhhhhnold

You missed the fireworks

the really big ones

when I blasted Mrs Wondering when she was a newbie .... she was one crazy mixed up girl ... she kicks azz now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and NewBeginningsII ..... well .... she and I were like oil and water .... and we are almost complete opposite personality types .... but we gradually formed a tolerance for each other .... then a gradual admiration for each other ... and now, I like her lots and I trust her advice , even if I disagree, I trust her advice

so the *fireworks* you see on THIS puny thread ... they ain't nothing special

you missed the BIG SHOW hunny ....

so if you want my opinion

sit back & relax

you give pretty damn decent advice yourownself .... but just observe some of the interactions ... they have a way of working themselves out over time

if this newbie chickie ever comes back wanting advice on how to RE-connect with her hubby .... she will be met with flowers & balloons... we might throw a parade in her honor <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

right now .... she's on a greased sled heading straight for heII & there is no stopping her

Pep

Yeppers she sho did and I sho wuz...And I VERY much needed it and heeded it...A couple of her posts still resonate in my thoughts...If I do "kick azz" now, it's partly because Pep and others kicked my azz upon arrival at MB...I remain grateful...I needed the brass tacks and got 'em here...

Mrs. W

Ahnold,

There is something I think you may have not quite gotten. So permit me to explain as best I understand.

When someone comes here, a BS or a WS, no one knows them, and probably will never know them. No one which approach will work for all of them or with all of them. Now you may be surprised to hear that BS's get the 2x4 at least as much as WS does here. Why a BS? Because they say they are following the plan and then won't for example: expose the A. Won't draw their boundaries, won't...whatever.

The WS gets the 2x4 most often because they are so deep in the fog that "logic" will not work. But what does work is for either the WS or the BS to receive many different approaches to the same message. If you feel the "gentle" touch is more likely to work, then by all means use it.

What you will see is that the BS and WS will begin to pick and choose who they will listen to. They will begin to focus on the message that is getting through. They need the angst, the no holds barred 2x4, and the gentle touch, and often they need all of them at different times. We don't necessarily know the time.

So what seems to work best is that they receive the message in many different forms. Your greatest value here is to communicate in YOUR form with those you choose to help. It will be sincere and hopefully effective. Mel has her style, Pep has hers, NB has hers, WAT has his, I have mine. Hopefully one of these styles will get through.

Now if what I am saying makes sense to you, then you can see why some responded as they did to you. They don't want to curb your approach, but they are most comfortable in their own approach.

Yup it is sort of a shotgun approach, but given the limited knowledge any one has of others here, it seems amazingly effective.


Does this make sense? I hope so.

JL

[color:"red"] EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

..... and furthermore .... the fellow posters we have the MOST difficulty interacting with ... often present us with an opportunity to improve our marriage communication skills !!!

The posters you want to strangle .... if you can find ways to say your piece ~without~ getting frustrated and managing to control your own emotional response .... you may have inadvertently improved your marital communication skills....

it's a weird sideways benifit of posting here .... SELF-SOOTHING is a marriage skill we can practice here!


listen carefully to the ones who annoy you .... and pay attention to how you want to knee-jerk respond to him/her ... it's absolutely fascinating!

Pep

And can I just say, this newbie hasn't even been gone from the board for 24 hours at this point. Some people actually work.

well ok - maybe 20 minutes more than 24 hours. send out the search party

This work you speak of...It's in your Aussie textbooks, right? Has to be...How else would an Aussie know about workin'? Don't you just spend all your time playin' the didgeridoo and tossin' the boomerang to and fro? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

G'day Mate! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I read this post and couldn't get beyond this. Get your head on straight. My WW just told me she 'settled' when she married me because it was the 'safe and secure' route. Don't EVER say that to your husband. You might as well just tear his heart out with your bare hands and eat it in front of him.

Figure it out. If you really did 'settle,' then you are a terrible person and you need to seek counselling for that. You have a responsibility to your husband and your children. You can no longer only think about yourself. There is no selfishness left in your life. Your children come first, and the best thing for them is a family where their parents love each other and work out their problems.

So work it out.

This is a personal observation....not telling people how to act.



Again, clearly stated as an "opinion" based on some of his personal experiences. Not telling you what to do...not a "Behavior Police".

Unlike the statement:


Someone who wants help will not leave based on a 2x4? Quite a blanket statement. OK, you have seen several for whom this is true. But, you have also been offered a personal observation of someone who saw two people leave the site because of the 2x4 treatment. How can you then make such a clear cut statment and/or conclusion that "someone" who really wants help won't be leaving based on a 2 x 4?

I didn't see the observation being shared, about a gentler approach, as being "dictating" in nature. For me, dictating would sound more like: "Someone who wants help will NOT leave based on being too soft and gentle....If people really wanted help you have to treat them with soft gloves...speak gently to them. Any idiot meter would pick up on that. I was glad I was treated that way!...I know so and so is glad for that tx. even though they didn't initially like it...."

I see no space in this approach for an opposing thought or opinion. That, for me, is "dictating" in nature. "It's my way or the wrong way!" That's what I see as "policing". Where someone(s) is assigned to uphold the "law". The "law" being the way people have decided things must be be for everyone in a given society.

Perhaps one of the reasons we don't see those for whom the 2x4 doesn't work...in spite of their desire to make change...is for exactly that reason. The technique may not work, and may be harmful for some. We're not talking about taking away painful consequences here. We're talking about how people take in information in the most successful way.

2x4s are essential for some people. They don't even begin to hear at any lesser levels. But, if I go somewhere with a problem and am instantly hit with a 2x4, I just shut down. I kick into a "fear" mode of "flight", not "fight". I feel more guilty around someone who gently points out my wrongdoings...because I can more easily see their caring and concern....be open to what they have to say. Not perceive it as an attack.

I do think the underlying point of agreement on this site is the people are here to say things to try and be helpful, regardless of how they do it or what words they use. We see this dynamic in relationships all the time! I think it's part of learning more effective communication. Being open to other's perceptions, feelings, opinions, observations etc. Certainly an important component of successful relationships.

Who are these mythical 2 people who have left? Did I miss the memo?

The point IS heartmending, is that you, Ahnold and EVERYBODY else has the right to come here and give this wonderful, soft touch, flowery helpful advice if it is their perception that it will hit it's mark with the poster in question...I have never told him not to do that...Honestly, none of us truly knows what will get through at any given time...Many times I've seen it all work in tandem...I personally have a few different styles or tones that I feel work...The problem is when one particular or even a few particular posters feel it is up to them to decide the tone of others posts and then to take it further into KNOWING what will or will not get through to someone at any given time...That is the stuff that the behavior police are made of...

In my time here, I have seen more done by using 2 x 4's...So many times that is the tone I use when posting...That's up to me and me only...If someone feels they have seen the same done with a gentler touch, then they are free to use that gentle touch and should do so...Scolding others about their method of helping is not helpful...If you feel someone's approach is harmful, then by all means jump aboard and dole out what you feel is better for the situation, that is your right, because it is about you and your tone-Just don't get on a soapbox about why your method is the best way and should be used by all here...I just don't need lectures about my style or tone...I will NOT change that for anyone...the only one that can change me is me...And that is one of the GREATEST LESSONS that I have learned here...

Mrs. W

This lady may have left. JustJilly deleted all but her first/last posts, and I recall one other from earlier in the week that I can't find right now, but if I run across it will edit this post.

I think everyone has a right to their opinion. I also think that interpreting a stated opinion as telling YOU what to do is a stretch. I took great pains when I wrote my post to make sure I wasn't telling anyone how to behave, but rather saying that I thought a different approach might work here. I was merely putting the thought out there for consideration. I did not like being called names and being told what to do just because I stated my opinion.

Regardless, I think this is an extremely valuable discussion and hopefully all of us get something out of it. I do value the diversity of opinion and all of your opinions are meaningful to me in that they are thought provoking.

Heartmending, thanks for understanding what I said and for your post. You understood that I was expressing my view, not being the behavior police.

More name calling... and what did YOU gain.

This is ridiculous.

I just read a bunch of posts how about posting police...but it's okay to for me to be called ignorant and an idiot.

So much for allowing me my own posting style.

Thank goodness I have an older registration date, or I'd really be in trouble.

I don't like name calling and insults...it's not something I was raised to do, or something I raised my children to do...but that's just me...and I don't care for it... but I guess... I'm ignorant.

Ahnold

If you hang round this site for a good long while, you'll notice that it's a common pattern for people to 'leave' - often in a burst of 'I-am-so-hurt' and 'never-have-I-been-so-insulted' statements...and then come back, a few weeks or months later.

It takes that length of time for the indignation to simmer down, and the truth of some uncomfortable honesty to be faced.

Some come, don't like what they hear, and leave immediately.

Posters like Wantout are common on MB; they are people drifting towards a thrilling lure who want someone to give them a kind of permission to betray their marriage.

In many cases, they're yearning for someone to say "Don't live with a moment of regret...follow your heart, honey...". (In real life, they'll probably seek out friends who'll tell them just that.)

Coming here, to a marriage related site, many such posters are really hoping for validation that they they are right to pull out of their marriage, that the whole thing is hopeless. They want someone to affirm their sense of injury and injustice, and tell them that their spouse is doing a poor job. They usually make a big case for how much pain they have been putting up with, and how much they are entitled to redress the balance.

The first shots across the bow tend to flush out whether they're here for help resisting the lure, or whether they're really looking for licence to proceeed.

If they're the first, they'll be back. Two weeks is nothing.

Ahnold,

A quick note before I leave for work:

When someone comes to a board called Marriage Builders, which primarily is for healing marriages after infidelity, and calls themself "wantout"... they must realize that they will get advice to NOT cheat.

Honestly, which do you think will work better here ~~

"Please don't cheat. I'm sorry you're hurting. It's hard, I know. Do what you feel in your heart. Hugz"

...or...

"You will ruin your life if you continue this fantasy.

You will hate yourself. You will lose credibility, your integrity, and honor.

You will destroy your H and your marriage, and if you have children, you will rip apart their family, and possibly set them up for relationship failures in the future.

You are making a HUGE mistake to even entertain the idea of cheating."

Listen, I "get" what you're saying. Respect. Dignity. Decency.

The problem is: Someone in an affair, as wantout is (emotional, at this point) is not going to hear the platitudes.

If she thought she could come to this site and get help to leave her marriage, she was blinded by something, probably the affair. Why would anyone expect otherwise?

The one thing I've learned and taken to heart here~ people who care may have differing ways of sharing information, some harsh, some gentle... but we're all saying the same thing: CHEATING WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE.

wantout
if you are still here I think you should at least see that what you 'want' to do is going to destroy your family, your kids childhood to an extent, and research shows where a parent leaves the M due to an affair kids have long term life issues with relationships, and last but not least the happiness that COULD be yours.

A person suffering PTSD from a war, & here I speak with personal knowledge as my H suffered/s from it now and it gets worse after every deployment. Most of the men who go over there who do what my H does do in fact.
He will never be the man I married ever again, but he will be I hope and pray ALWAYS my beloved H.
Its NOT romantic unless you think being thumped in the mioddle of the night is romantic because your H, or in your case potential OM, thinks its someone sneaking up on him, or you wake him suddenly and get thrown into a wall, or he wanders the neighbourhood because he needs to know its safe and I could go on and on.
It's heart breaking and there is NOTHING you can do about it.
YOU cant SAVE him, you never could, Yes he is a victim but not YOUR victim. That would be your H & kids if you chose to have an affair, I know about that too because its what I did.
No one here can stop you destroying your M and family and your life, but maybe you should find out what you are doing before you do it.

I do wish you would read the books mentioned, to read some of the sad and inspiring stories of both recovered and failed M that are here, they are real, not fantasy.

Remember this, you are not 16 anymore and the 'HERO' you worshipped back then 'died' in that war. Its that simple really.
The man who has come back to see you NOW is obviously in great turmoil & pain. BUT ITS NOT YOURS.
Whatever he needs I can promise you its simply not YOU.
You will find out you are fighting to maintain an emotional reltionship of any sort to your HERO, .... he wont be able to respond because he can't. That is not his fault of course BUT ITS NOT YOURS EITHER! it simply is.
If you think your M is a bit distant now just wait until you try to live with a PTSD man who has not be able to recover after 10 years.
He should be encouraged with your H by your side, to seek help and a new life, not to seek his relief in taking you away from your family because he NEEDS you or someone else, anyone else, to ease his pain, THAT never works with war related PTSD, so far all I have ever seen is that only peer treatment does, advise him to see a Vet hospital not see you.
This will NEVER work for you, you need to work on your issues with your H.
If you say its not great then work to make it so, you have only yourself to blame if you don't.
You have the chance to step back, please take it.

All the best.

Ahnold, I am glad to hear that you weren't trying to tell folks they should change their approach to suit your tastes, because that would be most offensive, no matter how politely said. As you can see, it is an exercise in futility that only causes resentment, to suggest that folks change their approach to suit your taste.

NONE of us know what kind of "approach" will work with different people, so it is advantageous that there are many different approaches. This is why this forum is such a great place; someone may hit the mark. Just because a person leaves in a huff does not mean a "bad approach" was used, usually it means an unpleasant truth was spoken that she was not ready to hear. We can see that is probably the case here. When she is ready to hear it, she will be back.

With several different approaches, someone is bound to hit the mark if the person really wanted help in the first place. And sometimes they don't. I suspect the lady who came here really wanted "help" and encouragement in pursuing her affair, and didn't hear what she wanted to hear. When she does want help to do the RIGHT THING, she will be back.

p.s.I just simply restated what JL so eloquently said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He said it so much better than I:

late breaking news:

I've decided to "upgrade" to a 2X6 in deference to better construction during hurricane season.

Film at 11:00.

WAT

Ahnold, I like your style of posting!
You give very good advice in a respectful way.
You remind me of OWL.

I wonder if everyone knows what a 2 x 4 is?
It is a board, 2 inches thick by 4 inches wide and about 6 feet long.
(Edited to correct the length to 8 ft. Thanks to Mr W for the carpentry advice!)

To knock some one with one of these is not such a good idea.
(Either physically or emotionally with condescending or harsh words.)

I am more into a 'kick in the pants' instead of a 'pat on the back', when needed but NEVER 2 x 4's. (JMHO)

I think they make the poster DEFIANT...I truly believe just because it is an anonymous board, we should STILL treat
one another RESPECTFULLY; just as we would if we were counseling them one on one in person.
Again, just my opinion...maybe others agree?

**snort** He so bad! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Listen, mister, you can't have a bigger 2x4 than me, I AM A TEXAN!! That means I will have to get a 2x8! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

How do you know it's about 6' long IWRA?

I disagree...they are most often sold in the 8' lengths.

shheesh

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

W

Haha...I'm not a carpenter, MR W, that 6 ft long was just a guess.

Umm, an 8 ft long 2 x 4 would hurt that much more.
(Physically OR mentally, I don't wanna ever get hit by one on purpose.)

Just give me a kick in the pants if I need headed in the right direction.

OK? Thanks. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I suggest a 4X4 next. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2X8s aren't that readily available. 2X10s and 2X12s are, though. Looks for "joists" rather than framing lumber. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> 'Course, there are 6X6s.

Wanna talk steel? Pipe?

Ooooo - that's a thought! To heck with these "sticks"! How 'bout a stiff 2" SCH 40 CS pipe? Yowwie!

WAT

I use bricks. More effective ....

Just a little threadjack in the midst of all the other threadjacks....

I love you AW....

I'm so glad you are familia....

Even if I may never get to meet you and Aussie....

You'll always be familia...

((((AW))))

Fallacy of Affirming the Consequent:

I am speaking the truth when I use a 2X4
Therefore a 2X4 is the truth.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> huh?

Sometimes a 2X4 is just a piece of wood though...isn't it? And a 2X4 isn't the only way to express the truth either.

So if I'm not interested in 2X4's the other falacious argument might be....I'm not interested in the truth!!

Whoa....what a bunch of crap!

Too often the 2X4's are about creating shame.....and shame is a crummy motivator. Unlike guilt which is about what we "do"...shame is about who we "are".

Except it's the active ingredient in exposure.

I'd say shame is an excellent motivator. Advoidance of shame, and knowing basic right from wrong, is what keeps most of us on the straight and narrow, wouldn't you say?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT
------------------
This sticky-fingered Snickers-sneaking tot will learn her lesson - behind the bars of her playpenitentiary!

yep

HI wantout.

The secret is not finding the right person, it’s learning to love the one you are with.

Shame is self hate WAT....you're talking about GUILT. Guilt is a very good motivator....shame isn't. Look at the definitions of shame and guilt and you can quickly see the difference. Exposure may create shame....but it isn't the shame that motivates people to change. Shame creates powerlessness and inadequacy. Guilt translates into a ethical understanding of right and wrong.




The feeling bad of guilt means a feeling about someone else's hurt I caused & I meant to do it.

The feeling BAD of shame means there is something wrong with me as a person, that I let myself be hurt and I hurt others because I was no good. I'm powerless to change the horrible person I am.

IMO....the best exposure is one whose main component is guilt and not shame.

Excellent post Star. I have 'bookmarked' this one. Thanks for sharing.

Shame, guilt, whatever.

I don't draw such a fine line of distinction.

Semantics.

If someone feels guilt, they should also feel poorly about themselves. Then they can fix it.

Minor premise, major conclusion > Faulty logic.

Why is it permanent?

Who's quote is this anyway?

Sounds like a lot of overanalysis to me.

JMHO

WAT

WAT...it's not semantics.

Definitions from the dictionary on guilt and shame:

guilt: remorse caused by feeling responsible for some offense

shame: a painful emotion resulting from an awareness of inadequacy

Willima Cloke phd. describes it this way:

Well, I did look at the definitions. Try it yourself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Basically, guilt is a fact. Shame is a feeling.

If someone feels "guilt" they really feel shame.

So, in common usage, I'll say they're synonymous.

JMHO

WAT

WAT....the difference is they arise from two different sources....one is about self, one is about action. I did look at the definitions....I quoted some!!

*If someone feels "guilt" they really feel shame.* HUH?

You're talking braille chere.

I understand your distinction very well.

"You're an idiot" vs "You're acting like an idiot."

But it's academic, touchy feely, hair splitting all the way.

For day to day communications, feelings of guilt and shame are the same thing.

So what's "shameless?" Many would say "That's a shameless act" vs "That's a guiltless act."

WAT

WAT,

I understand your distinction very well.

It's not MY distinction WAT. Those are the words of people with far more learning than I have. There are tons of articles on this subject....and while you see no reasonable distinction between these two things....I'm not sure whether most therapists would agree with you.

"You're an idiot" vs "You're acting like an idiot."

But it's academic, touchy feely, hair splitting all the way.

That's your opinion. It's not mine. I don't think it's touchy feely at all...I think it's SMART to understand the difference and use that knowledge to motivate people more productively.

For day to day communications, feelings of guilt and shame are the same thing.

Yeah and you can tell me the sky is green chere....but I still believe it's blue. If there is no difference....I wonder why folks are writing countless articles and entire books about it?

Shame and Guilt

So what's "shameless?" Many would say "That's a shameless act" vs "That's a guiltless act."

So this proves your argument that shame=guilt??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Just because there are similarities between guilt and shame doesn't mean they're the same thing!! Yikes!! Why would we need two words to express the same thing?

Why doesn't someone start a thread where EVERYONE can go gripe and complain about posting styles, 2x4s, shame, guilt, trolls, tone of the post, etc.

Maybe they could make it a sticky on the forum- or hey, what about a sub forum just for that?

That way - the posts to a thread would be about the thread.

I feel bad for Wantout if she does come back and trys to weed through the advice for her vs. the debate that has been started here.

I'm not sure she'll get much out of the debate.

Too bad it is going to be hard to find the posts that really are about her situation. There were some very heart-felt repsonses to her. There was a good mix,too. Some were 2x4 and some were more encouraging her to the right thing.

I am not complaining about anyone's style- I see the benefits of both and of a good balance, too. My complaint is this: I think she was looking for help, but Wantout and her situation got lost in the uproar.

I think we've whipped this horse enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Again, I understand the subtle distinction.

My only point is that from a practical, everyday usage standpoint, the two words are synonymous. That's all.

The green/blue thing isn't a very good analogy here. You're smart enough to recognize that. Even though you only have to remove the yellow from green to get blue, the distinction between guilt and shame is a LOT more subtle.

Why are folks writing entire books about it?

Ohhhhhhhh, to sell books maybe? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Prolly can't sell a partial book.

WAT
------------------
When Rush was caught with someone else's Viagra prescription, he didn't exactly get a stiff sentence in the penal colony.

I'm with Star*fish here. It's not a semantic difference between shame and guilt.

Guilt comes from betraying one's own principles and standards; we deal with guilt by making amends for the harm we've done, and working out how to stick to our standards better in future.

Shame comes from a sense of betraying external standards - values with the person imagines are held by Everyone Else but not properly internalised by the shamed individual. Healthy shame comes from betraying standards which a healthy individual ought to hold; eg if we make fun of a vulnerable individual in order to look clever...people around us are shocked...that moment of shame is the the point at which we begin to internalise a principle of respect for others. Unhealthy shame is feeling a sense of the world's approbation for irrational reasons, such as feeling that people are laughing at you when you make a small mistake. Unhealthy shame makes a person paranoid and defensive. You can't work through it by making amends and recommitting to principles, like you can with guilt.

All of us can feel both guilt and shame - one is about the standards we hold already, and the other is about the standards we think people expect us to hold, but don't.

MB exposure is about guilt and healthy shame, it seems to me. It's asking the individual to justify the betrayal of their own standards (guilt), and it's also asking them whether they actually possess those standards of respect for others and promise-keeping, which we expect them to have acquired as adults (healthy shame).

Unhealthy shame would be induced (and often is induced, even by well-meaning posters) if we implied that the person was wholly evil, rotten, and unsalvageable.

TA

I don't think shame comes from posting here ... I am convinced shame about one's self is taught at an early age by one's parents ... or perhaps by society at large ... but not here

additionally, I feel it is also irresponsible when (if) we posters take credit when someone does get better ... we do not make others get well in their spirit, nor do we make them sick in their spirit...

we are peripheral only

no one gets better by any suggestion we may make unless there was that seed already in them ....

my way of thinking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

I'd like to offer this from the WS point of view (Though I am very much FormerWS)...Anyway...

On guilt...I felt guilt about what I was doing to Mr. W in my affair...Not enough to motivate me to change though...That emotion was compartmentalized and shelved along with my morals...I wanted my fix after all...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Guilt gets rationalized away...guilt gets shown to the door...

However, SHAME...now SHAME was POWERFUL for me...It was something that I had a much harder time shelving...Shameful scenarios played in my head over and over...And they were pretty impossible to reign in...Shame is what motivates the affairees to keep the affair a secret...Shame(exposure) is what threatens to take away the fix...Remember also that a WS looks OUTWARD for approval...Not inward...Guilt comes from within...Shame comes from without...

I personally think that the WS mindset is something that shouldn't be overlooked...That being said, SHAME ON YOU WANTOUT!!!

Mrs. W

Pep, I agree with this. But don't you think that many WSs are shame-impaired, ie. they haven't learned healthy shame from their families, and are thus very vulnerable to being shamed by posters here? Sometimes a WS takes a stubborn position, and in an effort to budge them, some posters pour scorn on areas of the WS's life that really should be off-limits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

A person with good boundaries would see the unfairness of this, and not be affected. But so many WSs (and a good many BSs - count me among them), have poor boundaries to begin with, and are not good at detecting boundary invasion. If we (MB posters) don't respect those boundaries ourselves - for the best of reasons - how can that help them to work out what's OK and what's not?

TA

100% agree!

I've only been on these boards a short time (since December of last year). I've seen (and experienced) all sorts of styles from different posters - new and old alike.

I agree that every style has its value, and what works for one person may not work for another. 2x4s might have driven wantout away, but (IMO) if she really wanted help, they'll plant a seed or two for her to think about.

The tragedy I see here, and I've seen it played out several times on these boards, is that someone new will post, and the thread will rapidly degenerate into something like this, with people on both sides of the argument defending their positions. All the while the original poster gets virtually ignored, and their situation drops of the map (unless its used to support one side or the other's position).

Yes, wantout got a very harsh reception from many (including myself). But in 2 days this thread has 8 pages - and the majority of it is a debate about what the proper approach to people is.

As another poster said, if people want to debate tough love vs soft love, it should have gone to another thread. Assuming wantout hasn't fled for the hills, where would her motivation be to rejoin the discussion she started?

Hopefully she'll think about what was said to her, and stop her course of action before its too late. I don't think she'll be back - at least not on this thread, as it's become cluttered with stuff not directly related to her situation.

Just my opinion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hahahah...smart @ss!

their life will be difficult no matter where they go, in that case

Pep

brokenbird and others...

There is indeed VALUE in this discussion as it is ABOUT how Wantout will or will not take things...Also, it keeps the thread ACTIVE...Actually this thread is VERY valuable as she may feel the need to pipe up and tell us what she thinks will work for her...Not that she'll actually be very qualified to know that right now, but just talking about her *may* cause her to engage...Ah Conflict...ALWAYS better than withdrawal, wouldn't you agree?

Bottom line is this, NO ONE here is responsible for what Wantout CHOOSES to do except Wantout...

Also, don't eliminate the benefit this thread has to the people posting to it or the lurkers reading it...They matter too!

Lastly, how do you know that Wantout isn't reading this thread...I'll bet she is!!! Hey Wantout, I'm sticking my tongue out at you!!! Come make me stop!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

I think this is an EXCELLENT discussion

I'm enjoying it

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Too bad this is buried in a thread many people will not read.

here's some of my ramblings...

I believe it's de-values marriage to relegate someones distaste with horrific actions as being based on personal hurts, traumas, and anger...

acts of an affair stand in vile.....seperate from anyones perception...

the ACTS of an affair are wrong....

and reactions to that are NOT based on personal feelings...

acts of an affair stand hurtful on their own....

one does not need and SHOULD not need to have been on any side of an affair coin to promote these acts as they are realistically...

they are LIFE ALTERING for many ....
grossly damaging

they are what they are....

I don't buy any amount of fog truly removes from the infidel that what they are doing on some level is WRONG

unless a sociopath.....

inspite of their rationalization
inspite of their denial

its elementary on one level...

I can not and will not undermine the sanctity of marriage to coddle right from wrong...

and I will not accept that if you haven't been part of the infidelity coin then you would somehow be more accepting of such acts.....

AND
I will not accept that if you have been part of the infidelity coin you would somehow be less accepting of such acts..

our acts DEFINE who we are...

we speak the value of honesty till we are blue in the face..
but if we do not act honestly...

we are not honest people...

truth is truth...

ARK^^

Ms.W....the argument <to me> is not whether this discussion, or certain posting styles, or even shame can have any value....they may all have some value under certain circumstances. The question is <to me> whether the value outweighs the price? You think it does. I think it doesn't. I think we're losing as much or more than we gain. I find value in corporal punishment....doesn't mean I think "beating" is the best way to teach children.

This isn't about "tough love" vs "soft love". The prevailing argument invariably ends up there...BECAUSE....that's the easiest postion to defend....it just has nothing to do with the argument. Just because some folks don't believe that 2X4's are the good motivation tools....doesn't mean they believe in "soft love" or coddling either.....but it sure makes for an easy and volatile argument. <snicker> "Just call them Coddlers!! That'll shut em up."

But nobody wants to argue the merit of balancing truth/powerful messages/bluntness AND compassion/respect....because that wouldn't be as much fun and it would be much harder to argue against.

I prefer to attack actions instead of people....use guilt instead shame as a motivator (and I have tons of stuff from psychologists/theologians/doctors that support my reasons for doing that). That doesn't make me soft....I'm tough as nails. I don't coddle people just because I can challenge them without humiliation and shame. Ultimately, my message is "you're a good person who has free will and can choose to STOP doing these terrible things!" It's hard to shame most people and empower them at the same time.



If we truly believe that anyone is capable of an affair....then that means that good people can do bad things. Aren't you one of those people? A good person who should be remorseful for her actions....but NOT ashamed of who you are?

Just because the only folks who stick around these boards are the ones that were strong enough to withstand some of the personal assaults, does NOT mean that those folks are better, smarter or more capable of overcoming poor choices....it doesn't even mean they are the only ones READY to change. They just have thicker skin. It proves nothing....because most of the people who didn't respond to the 2X4's just LEAVE....or get tired of being drowned out and shut up.

????

I think this the usual circumstances here .... there is balance

Undoubtly, I am missing your current point.

Are you saying there is NOT a balance of messages?

Pep

if sticking around proves nothing

it cannot prove your

"thicker skin" theory either

I think it also needs to be pointed out that what some folks consider to be a "2x4" in reality is an assasination. I read a post yesterday morning by silverpool on Cheated On and I Am So Sorry's thread. She did not hit him with a 2x4, she handed him his head on a plate. There was not one word of helpful advice in her post, it was pure anger, nothing more. Even IASS's wife came to his defense. I watched and waited to see if silverpool would apologize to him. After all everyone has a bad day now and then. She never did apologize. It is posts like that that keep me a lurker and I suspect that it keeps many other people lurkers as well. I have been lurking for many months and have only posted a few times. There are many fine people on this forum with so much to give and I learn so much just by reading. I feel safer this way. OK, crawling back into the woodwork again.

BTW, PEP I love your style <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

back again...

your responsibility is to report the offending post....

ARK

I you're asking me if I think that the board in general has various styles that "balance" each other out....yeah...I guess I agree in theory....in practice....not really. I say in theory....because there are certainly many styles on this board and you would think that would kind of create a balance. However, in practice....we have a very powerful core of vets who have a similar style and many other folks find that intimidating/humiliating/silencing....so the balance is sometimes "off" <to me>. I'm not speaking for anyone but me.

But what I was really referring to in the last post was the balance "within" the hard hitting style....not "without". For instance....is there any value in combining harsh truth/anti-coddling/reality AND compassion/respect. If you don't....does "tough love" really HAVE any LOVE? Sometimes....it honestly seems alot more like hatespeak than tough love....it can be pretty disturbing. That doesn't mean I don't see any value in "toughness" alone....but don't call it tough love if it's just tough....and don't call compassion "coddling" because it isn't disrespectful.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm confused ....

I'll try re-reading a few more times ...

thanks Star

This part is about the group as a whole ... right?


.... and, you are saying there is a balance overall because there are so many different people and different approaches .... right? Not completely balanced (what is?) ... but about as good as can be expected ... right? is that your intention?

having said that, in your opinion, vets tend to have a similar approach ... so, which vets are you voluntering to censor?

LOL

just kidding

seriously, how can vets NOT gradually develop some similarities over time?

I think this occurs as a result of figuring out what shorthand works and what does not

it's a total non-issue for me

is this an important issue for you?

Pep

and now this side of things....


sure

I see value in this

I think I try to do this most of the time

I am not always successful

but I also try to inject humor at times ... which has backfired and blown up in my face ... but I still do it ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I find humor a really valuable tool here ... often under used

so, are you saying this is your prefered style?

KEWL

Pep

Star*fish,
Thank you. Just... thank you.
--SC

....we have a very powerful core of vets who have a similar style and many other folks find that intimidating/humiliating/silencing

here comes the group labeling....

these are statements that make me want to walk away from this board....

this type of statement in my opinion is damaging.....

dammned if you
dammned if you don't.....

I am only responsible for MY posts...

can't control anyone elses...
won't even try...

so what do you suggest star..
so called vets quit posting out of fear of

intimidating/humiliating/silencing

because it doesn't meet someones standard of tough love...

I have never tried to humiliate anyone here...cept weaver....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I find these grossly blanketed statements exhausting...

again we go round and round...

use the ignore function

take what you can use

garbage in
garbage out

I will continue to post on the premise that if you are OLD enough to engage in an affair..
you are OLD enough to read some things that might feel a little uncomfortable...
AND
survive it....

this IS CYBER world....

and posts are as much worth as for what one pays for them....

ARK

star

all your post does is make people feel the need to defend themselves..
and prove that they use compassion AND tough love AND blah blah blah....

I won't do it..

I stand behind my posts....
misspellings and all.....
again as note above...for what they are really worth... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

ARK

Arkie .... this does not upset me because I flat out disregard her premise .... which is

we are "very powerful"

sez who?

*snort*

only in our own minds

LOL

such a fascinating self-aggrandizement luxury I cannot afford to add on to my already lengthy list of faults

LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am a member here

just like anyone else

I hold no special "very powerful" position .... and I would suggest, neither does anyone else .... TEMPEST said so ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I just love ya ... I do I do I do...hey..you should have your OWN board !!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

KEWL

who are you?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

ark,


In the words of the immortal Tina Turner "what's love got to do with it?"

Most of this stuff has nothing to do with tough love blah blah blah. We're not parents to these posters. Nobody asked you to defend yourself chere....I'm expressing my opinion just like you are. You in fact have nothing to defend....at least I've never seen it.

While you staunchly defend the RIGHT of anyone to post as they choose....YOU choose to post respectfully....always. Interesting. It's a "censorship" issue with you ark....and I respect that. I really do. But truth with respect is your style and always has been. It's Pep's style too. It's my style for that matter. I'm not fond of censorship....I think it sucks....so I do understand the argument. I said there is a core of vets....but I guess a more accurate statement might be a core of "defenders" because even the folks who defend the style of shame-based motivation....don't practice it...they often just help to drown out the folks who disagree that it "works".


Well....not much point in discussing further then? If you disagreed....then I have some thoughts....but a flat out "disregard" isn't worth much expulsion of energy. I'm not talking about how you view yourself pep....but how you are percieved. Sure....you have no control over that....but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Dang.

What this board is... is a lot like what real life <<away from this board>> is... which is... people.

Different people, different personalities, different thoughts and different ways of getting those thoughts across.

Life.

One of my biggest prior MB-concerns was telling posters that they were hurting others with their words -- the ultimate care-taker, that's been me. I'm still a care-taker in many ways... but the days of care-taking adult strangers on an anonymous message board are over.

There is a part of me what still stings when I read harsh words, especially when delivered with what *feels like* (to me) malice. But you know what? It ain't about ME. And even if the words are directed to me, it STILL may not be about me. Usually, as Miquel Ruez (in his book "The Four Agreements") says, it's really about the person saying it.

I am not the most important person in the room, and neither is anyone else here - except (maybe) to ourselves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It is truly disheartening to see how this "conversation and debate" is degenerating to all but a fistfight outside a bar.............over posting styles. Puhleease <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

NB, you are awesome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

shattered dreams...

I been in fistfights in bars..

they are much more fun and entertaining than this...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

new beginning,


You just said a mouthful dawlin'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's why lack of compassion hurts the postee as much as the poster. It's the same reason why infidelity destroys SELF!

And ark^^.....please direct me <if you can> to ONE post where you called someone a wh*re, a slut, a skank or accused them of rutting like a pig. Show me ONE post where you said a WS deserves to be murdered or tarred and feathered. And if you can't....tell me why you DON'T use those words.

I understand your desire to defend the first amendment and I hate censorship too. But tell me this....do folks who traffic kiddie porn get to hide behind that amendment? Yep we have "moderators"....and they try their best to do their job....but even TEMPEST was challenged the last time she tried to broach this subject. Believe me chere....I have no delusions of grandeur that I will change anybody's ideas....I'm just weighin in. You don't like it...fine...report me...put me on ignore....isn't that what we tell everybody else?


WOW...I can MAKE people feel all that? I must be pretty powerful indeed!! Even if pep says I'm not LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

*splish* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

star..ofcourse I wouldn't...I would never call anyone those names..except maybe anyone who said I liked Texas....

it wouldn't be PRUdent

tarring and feathering...burning at the stake....well maybe....if you twist my arm....
OK not those...

BUT I'd opt for a week in the public stockade any day....
I think penance serves a place...good for the soul

and I am very very respectful of being a guest here....

and IF and WHEN I see post with such blatant name calling I report it..
which I have done here and there...

so star it's you VET GROUP idealogy I rally about
does this beget breaking down vets in to good vets and bad vets....


saying someone should be murdered or whatever...is really just stupid stupid stuff...

and when someone posts such stupid...you really know how little their advice is worth....

stupid posts with stupid sentiments..identify peoples stupidity...and then you know...

and star ..why would I report you for your opinion...that's ludicrious....and never have I suggested that..
I say let the stupid posts stand for the stupid
and not stupid stand for the not stupid...
and vica versa

for the wise today on one post will the group idiot on the next...etc etc etc
and
vica versa...

ark

Yo..Ark^^... I have too, and they may have been more entertaining, but they weren't pretty.

Many of the folks involved here offered me some very succinct advice when I first arrived on these boards, and some of it wasn't what I wanted to hear, and wasn't delivered on a down filled pillow...and to my amazement, the advice was right on the mark. Living so close to the "show me" state, I had to pursue some issues "my way", rather than by some of the advice I was given. I now chalk the info I learned by that route as wisdom, ie, something learned the really hard way.

I just hate to see people joined together in a positive effort to help people survive infidelity mince words over something seemingly so inconsequential as posting styles.

Sort of like a fight at choir practice, ya know?

SD

Are you saying Star that someone can't be ASHAMED of their ACTIONS? I vehmently disagree.

People who destroy their families in an affair should be ashamed of themselves.

great visual

thanks

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

pep

ark,

First...thank you for this post. Just because.

star..ofcourse I wouldn't...I would never call anyone those names..except maybe anyone who said I liked Texas....

hehehheheh....well since I live in Texas....the land of cheerleader killing moms....I got to be careful too. I'm working on the big hair though....got my aqua net out.

it wouldn't be PRUdent

why? Isn't that what I'm talking about? Why it isn't prudent? What isn't prudent about it?

tarring and feathering...burning at the stake....well maybe....if you twist my arm....
OK not those...

BUT I'd opt for a week in the public stockade any day....
I think penance serves a place...good for the soul

I gotta admit <honestly> that a week in the "stocks" with folks throwing tomatoes is kind of attractive to me too. I'm not happy that infidelity which causes so much damage has been decriminalized and accepted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

and I am very very respectful of being a guest here....

Yes you are. I try to be too.


and IF and WHEN I see post with such blatant name calling I report it..
which I have done here and there...

So have I.

so star it's you VET GROUP idealogy I rally about
does this beget breaking down vets in to good vets and bad vets....

Yeah....I understand that. The word "vet" should have been excluded (maybe to "some vets and vetwannabees" hehehehehehe...it's a joke!)...I amended that to say "group of defenders" because (I realized it wasn't accurate) and because even the vets who defend lack of censorship, don't usually practice disrespect....and you're one of them. Sorry. Even though I support limiting EXTERNAL moderation (censorship)....what I'm really addressing is INTERNAL moderation....self restraint...empathy NOT sympathy. Does that make a difference? Does that make me a coddler? That's a rhetorical question....I KNOW I'm not a coddler.


saying someone should be murdered or whatever...is really just stupid stupid stuff...

You've seen that here though right? Cuz I have. I can speak specifically....but I know you know what I'm talking about.

and when someone posts such stupid...you really know how little their advice is worth....

Well I just think they probably have alot of unresolved anger...yanno? It's usually a newly betrayed spouse, or someone whose stuck in the anger stage of grief. I really do even understand that....cuz infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving....I'm just not sure how productive it is....and not just for the folks recieving that advice...but the ones giving it.

stupid posts with stupid sentiments..identify peoples stupidity...and then you know...

Again....it mostly seems painful to me....rather than stupid. It speaks to what they need to work on....rather than what the person they're posting to needs to work on.

and star ..why would I report you for your opinion...that's ludicrious....and never have I suggested that..

All of all of this is opinion....isn't it? Even the nasty stuff that some folks say. Sometimes you report it....sometimes you don't.....kinda depends on the context/percieved motivation. I know I didn't violate TOS....but it's not always TOS violations that get editted anyway...it's the stuff that's REPORTED.


I say let the stupid posts stand for the stupid
and not stupid stand for the not stupid...
and vica versa

Okay....I'm starting to giggle now....you did it...happy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

for the wise today on one post will the group idiot on the next...etc etc etc
and
vica versa...

ain't it the truth!! The thing I'm defending TODAY....will be the thing I'm accused of tomorrow. Wait....that's already HAPPENED!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BigK...people who destroy their families in an affair should be horribly ASHAMED of their infidelity...but they should value themselves ENOUGH to CHANGE their actions. Because only people with self value...value morals and commitments. if you take away their value....you take away their ability to end their destructive actions....THAT's what I believe. Help them value themselves.....that's the key to change.

I doubt I'll ever become "active" enough to really offer much feedback to anyone, but it's always interesting to see that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Sad, but not unexpected. I was just a little amazed at her wanting to rekindle something she last faced when learning to drive... I mean, I know affair is fantasy almost by definition, but this is pre-meditated fantasy the likes of which I hadn't seen in ages.

Besides... the reminder of Chris needed to be called out... I noticed he hadn't posted in a long time, and was wondering how he was.

I do hope wantout comes back, and truly seeks help. Best help: No contact letter and turn her back on her old crush forever.

Interestingly, the thread changed into one regarding posting styles... of course, as the alltime Master of Tact and Diplomacy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I found this amusing.

My limited knowledge of MrsWondering from this thread reminds me of me... (not to be insulting, MrsW). Former WS, no coddling... I like the style. Hope your recovery winds up better than mine (although I will say that my eventual divorce years later is one of the best things that ever happened to me).

Whew... I could just ramble onnnnn...

Yo WhoDat -

Howyaduin! That's a qreeting, not necessarily a question.

Ya know, I was kinda wondering about Chris myself.

Hey, hows come you can't use your original "name" and you hafta reregister?

Old farts like you outta be grandfathered. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Star - they should be ashamed of their infidelity and ashamed of themselves. That leads to change in my experience.

Shame is not self esteem or self worth although these tend to take a hit when you have an affair.

And for a change I agree with WAT - it's all semantics in my opinion.

I agree that WS's should be ashamed of themselves.

For me, it was a complete break from what I know was right and honorable... and my integrity was in question the moment I chose to have an affair.

AFTERWARDS, I had to REBUILD my self-esteem and integrity... and not just in others eyes, but in my OWN.

I understand, from a psychological standpoint, that shame is seen as negative. I've also heard that guilt is a useless emotion. Both, to me, can be useful for MOVING *away from* (repenting) from sin (for lack of a better phrase).

I was ashamed of MYSELF for my choice. I felt guilty for what I did to others by my choice.

I don't think they're interchangable, but I think both come from WITHIN.

so do I

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

not only that

but joy comes from within as well

a gift from "you know who"

NB ... you seem to be a pretty happy camper lately.... what's cookin?

Pep

For a change?

Don't be a wuss and speak up when you don't agree!

You're allowed to be wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Nothin' on the stove, Pepperband.

I just figured out some stuff, for myself, ya know?

... and I'm sharing it...

PS: Honestly, something you said helped me out with this. I've tried to remember exactly what you said - actually typed it a couple of times - wrongly. It doesn't even matter now... because whatever it was, I took it to heart and it's helped me become **this**! So, thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am a perpetual student. I love learning. And you know what? Almost everyone I've ever met has something valuable to teach me.

I love that!

LOL WAT.

NB

you do seem transformed

thinking about something you said .... guilt and shame are God-given as much as joy and happiness are ... not the actual emotions, but the possibility of any emotion ... is a gift

those who function sans guilt and/or shame .... are often criminals

guilt and shame have a purpose .... much like pain response .... aversion training, ya know?

sin feels sooooooooo good .... there must be a counter-balance imbeded within us ... or else we'd all run amok and live far more chaotic lives

IM MY OPINION <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

bigK...I respect your opinion, but don't agree. There is an incredible amount of scientific research being done on shame, that's a big part of what my opinion is based on....so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

NB...this must a new revelation....because I'm remembering some convos where you spoke differently about shame. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I agree, LMAO WAT!!!

Star*fish, I just want to say I agree with all of your posts on this thread and I also enjoy reading your posts in general. Thank you. As betrayedinjersey has said…you should have your OWN board! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Star*,

The last six months or so, I have been trying to find a place of balance... for me. I have been actively searching my soul to see what I believe about a lot of things.

I have spent my life (or at least much of it) allowing *others* to dictate what *I* feel. I will no longer allow that.

Nobody outside of myself can make me feel anything.

Have you read don Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements? It is EXCELLENT. One of the agreements, which I alluded to before, is this:

Don't take anything personally - what other people say or do isn't because of you, it's because of their own life experiences.

This is a watershed concept for me.

Allowing others to determine my worth is dangerous and lazy. It's MY JOB, not theirs.

If you're going to ask me if I can still feel shame or guilt when, say, my *mother* says certain things -- yes, of course. Mothers, sigh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But still, even good ol' Mom couldn't move me if I didn't think it MYSELF first.

Not taking things personally doesn't mean I won't have a REACTION. It's what I do with it after (Action) that will be different because I realize that Mom's comment isn't about me, it's about her.

I explained, above, how I perceive shame and guilt (shame about how it affects me, guilt about how it affects others). That's just my interpretation. I didn't look anything up in the dictionary or ask anyone -- it's just how I feel. If both come from within, nobody else can determine the outcome of the FEELINGS. You, and you alone, must DO whatever it is to remove the feelings -- possibly stopping the action that caused it, apologizing to those you harmed, and dealing with the consequences, which may go on for years (as in my case).

I will always feel shame for my chioce to have an affair. If I didn't, I'd tell people about it and boast about my ability to dupe my (then)H and ruin my family.

And I will probably always feel some guilt about what it did to my family (though it lessons through the years, as my family and I heal).

I don't see a problem with how I think. However, I'm sure my mother (the Ph.D. Psychotherapist) might! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

nb,

The last six months or so, I have been trying to find a place of balance... for me. I have been actively searching my soul to see what I believe about a lot of things.

I have spent my life (or at least much of it) allowing *others* to dictate what *I* feel. I will no longer allow that.

Nobody outside of myself can make me feel anything.

I'm so happy for you NB....I know how debilitating shame has been in your life. It sounds to me like you've learned to "value" yourself and trust yourself. That isn't a journey I expect that you'd be making if you were drowning in shame or feeling defensive. Looking back at shame from a place of value gives you a different perspective.

Lots of research is being done about shame. Brene Brown, PhD, LWSM did extensive research about the roles of guilt and shame. She says this:


Have you read don Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements? It is EXCELLENT. One of the agreements, which I alluded to before, is this:

Don't take anything personally - what other people say or do isn't because of you, it's because of their own life experiences.

Yes, I loved this book. One of the other things he says is to use the power of your word for truth and love. As you mention, he says that our perceptions of others are merely reflections of ourselves.

But just because he arms us against the words of others, and helps promote personal value....doesn't mean he doesn't recognize the power that other people's words can have on us....nor does it mean he doesn't "charge" us to use the power of our words to help rather than harm.

This is a watershed concept for me.

Allowing others to determine my worth is dangerous and lazy. It's MY JOB, not theirs.

Yes it is. I often say offense is taken not given. However, what sort of standard do I set for myself? I can't impose restrictions on what anyone says to others, but I can set standards of compassion and ethics about whether I reflect on myself with the words I choose to use. If I believe that words reflect upon the person using them....in essence....shaming others....shames me.

I've seen the PET scans of people who feel fear, shame and anger. Their neocortex (our new brain) isn't even lit up. Activity is in our limbic system (fight or flight). At one time....we were wired that way to react to real threats....like saber toothed tigers.....today life threats are rare, but shame (loss of self) triggers the same brain functions. For most of us in the modern world, the biggest threat we feel is loss of self.

Feeling personally empowered and valuable is what prompted your change....why do you think it's going to be so different for others? Do you think that people involved in affairs value themselves? How is shaming them going to improve that dynamic?

If you're going to ask me if I can still feel shame or guilt when, say, my *mother* says certain things -- yes, of course. Mothers, sigh. But still, even good ol' Mom couldn't move me if I didn't think it MYSELF first.

If everyone was in the same place you are....years away from the incidents that created shame...and personally empowered....we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Not taking things personally doesn't mean I won't have a REACTION. It's what I do with it after (Action) that will be different because I realize that Mom's comment isn't about me, it's about her.

Good for you....I wish more folks were in that place....however, I still say that shaming others, shames me and doesn't empower anyone.

I explained, above, how I perceive shame and guilt (shame about how it affects me, guilt about how it affects others). That's just my interpretation. I didn't look anything up in the dictionary or ask anyone -- it's just how I feel.

NB....all emotions are "within" including lots of unhealthy ones. The question is "where" within. Where do you process those emotions? I think that matters.

If both come from within, nobody else can determine the outcome of the FEELINGS. You, and you alone, must DO whatever it is to remove the feelings -- possibly stopping the action that caused it, apologizing to those you harmed, and dealing with the consequences, which may go on for years (as in my case).

Well, you seem to be talking about guilt not shame. Most people feel as though they can make reparations for the things they've done. But psychiatrists all over the world have hard time getting people past shame. Look at the shame associated with sexual abuse for instance. Many victims are paralyzed by shame for something they didn't even do and have no control over. Shame is not the same construct as guilt....WAT not withstanding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will always feel shame for my chioce to have an affair. If I didn't, I'd tell people about it and boast about my ability to dupe my (then)H and ruin my family.

Yes....you will always feel shame for your CHOICE....but if you felt shame for who you ARE <right now>....I doubt you'd be where you are. I think you DID feel shame about who you were....I think shame was a crippling emotion for you in the past from the things I know. Shame doesn't empower you NB....and it doesn't produce change. Change occurs in the neocortex....where your logic, spirituality, creativity, language function resides. Shame triggers your animal brain. Folks can dismiss this as a bunch of pop psychology....but there are dozens of studies that are no longer on the "fringe" of science....but in the forefront. Shame is the subject of so many seminars and psyciatric workshops....it's just amazing.

Here's a link to an article about one of them....and since we liken affairs to addictions...it's particularly relevent.

http://www.dentalplans.com/Dental-Health-Articles/Shame,-Not-Guilt,-Related-to-Substance-Abuse-Problems.asp

[color:" blue"]Shame, Not Guilt, Related to Substance Abuse Problems


Findings from a collaboration between scientists at the University at Buffalo's Research Institute on Addictions (RIA) and George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., have established the importance of distinguishing between feelings of shame and guilt when providing treatment for substance abuse and in developing substance-abuse prevention programs.

According to Ronda Dearing, Ph.D., RIA research scientist and lead author on the study published in the August 2005 issue of Addictive Behaviors, shame and guilt -- or a personal tendency toward either emotion -- have important implications regarding misuse of alcohol and drugs.

The study included three groups of participants with different levels of alcohol and drug problems. Two groups were primarily female college students about 20 years of age. The third group was comprised of predominantly male inmates from a metropolitan area jail who were, on average, 31 years of age.

Shame is the tendency to feel bad about yourself following a specific event. It appears that individuals who are prone to shame when dealing with a variety of life problems may also have a tendency to turn toward alcohol and other drugs to cope with this feeling.

Guilt, or the tendency to feel bad about a specific behavior or action, was largely unrelated to substance-use problems. This is one of the first studies to scientifically validate the importance of shame versus guilt and their relation to alcohol and drugs.

Clinically, this study suggests a point of intervention for the treatment of substance-use problems. Specifically, counselors and other medical providers might effectively work with clients toward decreasing shame-proneness and enhancing guilt-proneness.

"Whether or not shame is a cause of problematic substance use," Dearing explained, "other problems that go hand-in-hand with shame such as anger or interpersonal difficulties are sufficient justification for implementing shame-reduction interventions into treatment. Successfully reducing shame is likely to result in better treatment outcomes."

Supported by a $585,000 award from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Dearing is investigating help-seeking for alcohol problems, specifically whether attitudes about alcohol and alcohol treatment predict how or whether people seek help for alcohol problems.

Dearing wants to understand how people who seek alcohol- and substance-use treatment are different from other people who have similar problems, but do not seek help. In addition, she hopes to learn whether a proneness to shame is a risk factor for drug and alcohol problems and, secondly, whether the tendency to experience guilt is a protective factor against the same problems. [/color]



And I will probably always feel some guilt about what it did to my family (though it lessons through the years, as my family and I heal).

Yes...again....something you "did".

I don't see a problem with how I think. However, I'm sure my mother (the Ph.D. Psychotherapist) might!

I don't see a problem with how you think either NB. You sound pretty healthy to me. That doesn't mean I agree with your thoughts on shame though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((((((((NB)))))))))))

Well, I'm gonna answer it anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm doing really, really well... pretty much everyone I know has commented on how much more relaxed and happy I have been in the last year. I have been enjoying my life, working on my house, and riding my new motorcycle. Just enjoying life, and my kids.



Heh... I agree, Dave. I don't think my original registration was old enough to break the database like K's and give me a 1969 registration date, but it's close. The reason I can't use it was because when I considered myself "done" here 4-5 years ago, I cut the ties and changed my password to gobbledegook and deleted the email account it was attached to.

When I started having (unrelated) troubles again, I emailed Tempest to see if it could be reset and sent to a new address... unfortunately, it couldn't be done. So here's the noew one.

Reading around a bit, it looks like I have found a few new stories to follow up on... I just wonder what happened to some of the other oldies, besides Chris.

Glad to hear you're doing well.


Yea, I understand K gave the initial ideas to Al Gore so he could invent the internet.

WAT

Hi Starfish,


How did I say it would be different for others?

No, I don't think people involved in affairs value themselves.

How am I shaming others? By suggesting that they should be ashamed of themselves for having an affair? THEY SHOULD BE. Are you saying that my words can CREATE shame in adults who post here? If so, I don't agree.

In the real world where we know someone personally -- perhaps, but I'm still not fully on board with it. In children, who are still maturing, yes, I would say that we, as adults (especially parents) CAN create shame.

But on an anonymous message board -- NO.


I don't understand this question.



As someone who was sexually abused as a child, I can tell you that I felt both shame and guilt. I never said they were interchangable. It may not be the same construct, but I don't see how that ties into this conversation.


Did I say the *shame* empowered me? I don't remember saying that. The shame (for that choice) REMAINS, as we've both said, so what are we disagreeing about here?

And finally,

((((((((((((((((((((star*fish))))))))))))))))))))))

NB,

Where did I say *you* where shaming anyone? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Remember that rule: Don't take things personally? The discussion <I thought> you and I were having, was about "shame as a motivator" not whether you personally use shame as a motivator or whether you're a good person. Earlier you said you thought it was a good motivator <for you>. I said I didn't think it was a good motivator <in general> and perhaps you were motivated by the value you've found in your journey (rather than feeling shameful about who you are)...tried to explain why I think so.

As far as whether an anonymous message board is capable of triggering shame in someone....I agree that it "shouldn't" and "doesn't" when folks are healthy and clear headed. I just don't think folks involved in affairs are very healthy and I think even the betrayed spouses feel shame, loss of value and confusion. Please distingquish that from the regular argument folks raise about "coddling"....because I'm not a coddler. I make a distinction between guilt and shame....and there is tons of research regarding that issue....that I can't ignore. I have not trouble pointing out the unethical and destructiveness of people's choices....in that process I think helping them see their own value and change that behavior so that their actions are in line with the best they can be....is a good thing.

Did you know for instance that researchers have found a connection between past child abuse and infidelity later in life? They think that has alot to do with <shame> and it's just ONE of the dysfunctional problems it creates....it's linked to all kinds of nasty things.

I could post and post some more studies....but it doesn't seem to matter...not even sure anyone is reading them. Several studies I've read about revolve around "classroom shame"...and you know what...this place is alot like a classroom. You're not telling me that you didn't experience shame on this board? Maybe you "shouldn't" have....but did you? I'm trying to stay grounded NB about what happens....really happens....not whether it should happen.

As far as you "personally"....I've never seen you attempt to shame ANYONE....quite the opposite.

"Shame on you for what you're doing!" is not at all what I'm talking about. "Shame on your for what you ARE....a slut, wh*re, dog in heat, and unredeemable person, got what you deserved" that's different. I don't think you can empower change while you destroy value. Steven Stosny's entire therapeutic model is based on that...and science supports it. The research being done....not by pop psychologists....but doctors and scientists on human emotions and "where" we process those emotions is astounding.

I really do believe that you're talking about guilt instead of shame. You may be using those words interchangeably....and I'm not....so it's causing a disconnect when we're speaking to each other....dunno. Shame is self hate....so if you think that it's been a good motivator for you....well yeah....I'd kinda be shocked because it's looking more like self love (value) is what is motivating you now toward a stronger self.

Don't worry about my feelings chere....I'm in the same place that your journey has brought you....where words on this board....or any external need for approval is not important to me. This is just a discussion....and your thoughts are valuable to me.

hugs backattcha

Hey NB,

As someone who has "known" you for years, I will say it is obvious that you have changed and yes the word balance comes to mind. But, what I sense is "grace". That is the word that I think comes to my mind when reading your posts now.

You have done well "young lady" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You truely have.

Star: I think people are reading what you are saying, but I also think some of this is splitting things too fine.

My personal preference for motivators was explained to me by my father: fear and greed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Ultimately people are motivated by fear of losing something or wanting something they don't have.

I realize that in a very small minority of posts people get blasted when in fact it is just someone letting off steam themselves. They figure that the other person is Anon. so why not? Which is not good. However most 2x4 or what passes for one, or perhaps "pipe" are to try and instill some fear in the poster so that their complacency is disturbed. Even anger in the person is good, because as they try to defend themselves, it often strikes them that their position just may have a few holes in it.

Yet, it seems to me what is missed in this ongoing debate about styles is that no matter what any of us say, unless we eventually can add something of value to the discourse we will NOT change the person. And here is where the plans, the books, the articles, come in. Praise, criticism, anger, encouragement all mean NOTHING without action and that means a plan.

I cannot tell what people think of my "style", but if I can "scare" them off with one post, then I know they are not serious, thus and USEFUL information I or anyone else would provide is worthless. Hence, I am purposely rather blunt as some can attest, but if they respond and hang in there, THEN information can be exchanged and the work can begin. I think even NB might say that I can be blunt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So perhaps we need to curtail this discussion about "style" and discuss if there is substance to subsequent posts. If there is, then a new poster will find what they need from us. If the subsequent posts by anyone here do not contain substance, then their "style" is of no moment and neither is the fact that a persons comes and stays or leaves.

Just a few thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks for your thoughts. I think many folks are in agreement about the "splitting hairs" thing. I also think many of them aren't....and are quietly reading.

You mentioned "substance" and I guess I think there's alot of substance in this discussion....for instance, the last study I posted about how *shame feeds addictions* (and we know affairs act like addictions in the brain). That seems pretty relevent to me....especially if folks are using guilt and shame interchangeably (without distinction) to help motivate people to change.

As usual....any discussion about this...gets labelled as one about "style" and semantics. *yawn*

You're blunt JL. I'm blunt. So are a whole lot of great posters who are direct without needing to humiliate people. Like I asked ark....show me one of your posts where your bluntness was expressed disrespectfully....where you had to abandon your impeccable manners to express the harsh truth to someone.

I've not advocated curbing bluntness. I have talked about how to combine <bluntness with guilt> rather than <bluntness with shame>.

What I see is alot people defending something that they don't incorporate into their posting. That's a mystery to me.

I think it may have to do with fear that folks will try to censure or police "style". That's a legitimate concern. That's why I believe that "internal" moderation is so important so that "external" moderation is redundant and unecessary.

Star,

Thank you...I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I guess I will go further about the shame thing. If I felt that shaming someone would open them up to accepting help and information...I would do it in a minute.

I would like to think I have not hurt or shamed someone, but I would bet that there are a few out there that could point to a post I have made that did just that. And since I post what I mean, I guess I have to defend it, otherwise I would not have meant it.

Heck I cannot read my W's mind, much posters on this sight. So I think I have shamed a few people. I know I have made a few mad. Sometimes I have done it intentionally, but sometimes I have not.

So while you may think I have not used shame, or pain, I would bet I have even if I did not set out to do it. I did/do however post what I think, so if the effect was shame or pain, tough. They can ignore me, or deal with it. My goal is send information and have it received and I cannot tell how I will affect people ahead of time.

So I guess I am defending my right to post as I see fit. I think others should do the same. Often people offer advice I don't necessarily agree with in ways I think is missing the mark. I try to keep my trap shut, because they just may hit the home run and I have no clue how someone will take what is said. We all have our filters, that is for sure.

Just more thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I am sort of from the "old" school (NB now behave yourself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). More of the military approach, break them down, and then build them up again.

Star*,

Hmmm... we're having a communication gap of some sort, I fear.

When you say... "why do you think it's going to be so different for others?"(emphesis mine)... and then say "Do you think that people involved in affairs value themselves?" (emphesis still mine)... and follow it with "How is shaming them going to improve that dynamic?"... can you see how I *might* have thought you were asking me personally?

In re-reading your entire response to me... I'm trying to figure out if we're having a conversation about us (you and me) and our beliefs or about the board in general. It seems to go back and forth. I'm confused. Seriously.

For example, you said:
Star, I've said at least twice, if not more, that I do NOT think they are interchangable. I said: ...shame is about how it affects me, guilt is about how it affects others. How am I being unclear?

Are you asking me if I (personally) agree with calling someone names to get their attention? I guess I don't understand...

I'm not feeling defensive, Star, I'm feeling confused.

JL,

This is for you ------> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Grace. I love that word. Thank you.

Makes me think of the movie Platoon .... the drill sargent .... my oh my ....I wonder if he was causing those soldiers SHAME while he was calling them very naughty names ... LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

maybe he should read them a bedtime story instead ... prepare them for war properly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think she DOES have her own board

Star,

Thanks for the quotes about Guilt and Shame.

I disagree vehmently.

On D-Day, my wife felt guilt - just like a kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar. Guilt is a FACT. SHe WAS guilty of adultery. Than FACT nor the EMOTION caused any change.

In fact even after she decided to come home, it was still some time before she truely "got it" and felt ashamed not of herself but of what she had done.

I do agree that shame is not productive long term but in the short term works wonders.

Guilt does not produce repentance and change. Shame does.

JL,

The last time someone told me I was being too harsh....was last week....no lie. It happens all the time. Again....I'm making a distinction between coupling <bluntness and guilt> which research supports as effective...with <bluntness and shame> which research doesn't support as effective. I am open to hearing about some scientific study that shows different results....but no one has offered any.

The fact that the truth often really hurts is not in question <at least by me>. People need to know the truth about infidelity....they need to have the destructiveness of their choices...laid BARE....but that's not the same thing as tar and feathers....sorry...not buying that argument. I KNOW....that without truth there is no change...no enlightment...no healing. But truth and shame need not be partners. I've seen your delivery of truth, I've seen your blunt style....if you've shamed someone...I've not seen it. You've envoked ALOT of guilt....I've seen that for sure. Doesn't mean you didn't ever (but show me)....I just haven't seen it. I find your delivery EXTREMELY respectful.

However....I do know this...that I've appealed to truth and guilt and been accused of being harsh and shaming. On....that...we can certainly agree! So I KNOW that the line is different for everyone....an unfortunately that makes it next to impossible to impose general "standards" on things....doesn't mean we can't have individual standards...that we employ. I can use the most respectful language to invoke guilt, ethics, and truth....and still have folks FEEL shame even though that wasn't my intention. So I'm leaving up to each person to examine their own stuff....because in spite of folks claiming I have magical powers to edit or lock threads....I really don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can try my best to give my best (you most certainly do the same) and still face criticism for my posts....and I do. I'm not advocating censorship....each one us has whatever responsibility we deem appropriate to explore and examine our language and style. I'm not advocating changing styles....I'm talking about how styles...even blunt styles can be MORE effective using the latest scientific research about what we know about guilt and shame.


If I believed that shaming someone would help....I'd do it in a minute too!...but I'm unwilling to ignore what I've learned about the effects of shame and their relationship to dysfunctional coping mechanisms, anger, withdrawal, disorders and addiction. I'm willing to do what works chere....just don't believe that shame works! And I'm sharing that!


I defend your right to post as you see fit too. I also defend MY right to say that I think <shame> is crummy motivator when used in posts. Is it really that different? If one freedom is protected....isn't the other? JL....nobody is forcing anybody to read this thread....and neither you nor I can change the way another person posts or their "style"....but I'll continue to defend everybody's right to express themselves. This is my expression. I think it has substance. I think it's important. I value your opinion. I value mine.

If what anyone is really trying to say is "star, can't you just shut TF up" LOL "you've beaten this into the ground"....then the answer is "not no, but H*LL no"....because every single DAY on this board I hear advice to others about how "if a subject or a poster bother you.... don't read the thread, put them on ignore...report them"....bla bla....then DO IT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Hahahahaha...don't get me started on the military!! LOL

JL....blessings to you and thank you very much for your thoughts.



new beginning,

Star*,

Hmmm... we're having a communication gap of some sort, I fear.

Yeah....I think so too chere...it's okay.

When you say... "why do you think it's going to be so different for others?"(emphesis mine)... and then say "Do you think that people involved in affairs value themselves?" (emphesis still mine)... and follow it with "How is shaming them going to improve that dynamic?"... can you see how I *might* have thought you were asking me personally?

Sure I'm "asking" you personally. I'm not "attacking" you personally though. You didn't feel that way, right?

In re-reading your entire response to me... I'm trying to figure out if we're having a conversation about us (you and me) and our beliefs or about the board in general. It seems to go back and forth. I'm confused. Seriously.

I'm sorry about the confusion....very sorry....it's a general discussion <open to others> where YOU and I are talking about our individual opinions about shame and guilt as motivators....and what's shaped those opinions for each of us...experience...study...the board...etc. Well...I can only speak for me....but that's what I thought.

For example, you said:

Quote:
I really do believe that you're talking about guilt instead of shame. You may be using those words interchangeably....



Star, I've said at least twice, if not more, that I do NOT think they are interchangable. I said: ...shame is about how it affects me, guilt is about how it affects others. How am I being unclear?

Okay....here's how *I* think you're being unclear. When you express your (what you're calling *shame*) you express it about what you *did*...not *who you are*. You express it about the things you did to hurt other people....not about how you hate yourself...not about what a bad person you are/were....that's why *I* was confused.

Are you asking me if I (personally) agree with calling someone names to get their attention? I guess I don't understand...

NB....I already KNOW that you don't call people names (but am a bit confused about whether you think that's a good idea or bad idea at this point)....so any questions I posed were rhetorical....sorry if that confused you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If you want to call people names to get their attention.....I can't stop you!! I'm expressing *my opinion* based on the research I've studied....that if you do....you may not be very effective in motivating change. Could be exceptions....there usually are (but exceptions don't negate the general rule)....but I hardly see a pattern of using shame in YOUR posts to "reach" people...and yeah...I'm glad about that.

I'm confused too chere. I'm confused how someone who had to endure the kind of shame you did....from your mother....and others....this board included....and defend it's use here. I'm not disappointed....but I admit that I'm confused because I know you beyond this board....so it's doubly confusing for me. You've participated periphereal discussions about this on other forums and email....so yeah...I'm kinda discombobulated and thrown for a loop....figured it was a semantic rather than a philosophical difference....maybe not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No matter what it is....semantics, philosophy, or blather....I don't give a rat's patootie....I actually LIKE seeing you express your *own* opinions and I don't care if you embrace mine, agree with mine....be authentic! We're cool chere.

I'm not feeling defensive, Star, I'm feeling confused.

Good...then we're on the same page. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I believe the newbie waywards come to MB with shame and if we don't kick their [censored] they may be stuck there forever. The ones who feel shame are most likely the ones to make it back.Feelings of shame are a strong indicator that there is something worth the effort of salvaging.

Shame is like a fever
It hurts..but actually it is your conscience fighting your sin nature. Taking away the feeling of shame is treating the symptom.Tylenol makes you FEEL better..but it doesn't actually make you well. Fever is the bodies way to fight infection.

Now certainly a fever CAN be fatal. It can go to the other extreme but I believe personally that a fever untreated is the description of a conscience seared. If you didn't respond WHEN YOU NEEDED TO you may very well have a mortal reaction.

bigk,

Again....I respect your opinion....but I'm unconvinced. The scientific communitunity also seems to be unconvinced.

Oh....and bigk....despite the lack of power that some folks claim I have <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />....or the superpowers others believe I have<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />....I can't do a damn thing if you want to kick somebody's @ss! Go after it! Just don't expect me to think it's wonderful, shut up about it, think you've got some kind of mandate from God, or that it's scientifically sound or effective...cuz I don't.

Now if I can just type "community" without typos....that would be a real feat.

PS....this has nothing to do with whether I like you and respect you or not....I do. We don't have to agree. I defend your right to say what you think.

Thanks to you too.

I consider myself part of "the scientific community" .... and guess what ..... there is seldom agreement about most things!

Edited to add your name, Star* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,


Nope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Huh. Well, if I wasn't clear before, allow me to clear this up... shame is about (in my opinion) SELF, guilt is about OTHERS. Isn't that what I said before? Self = who I am. I've said many, many times that I HARMED MYSELF by my affair. I feel shame about that and always will. I am also ashamed that my behaviors hurt others. Do I feel it on a daily basis? No. But being here (obviously) brings it to the fore rather often... another reason that being here (or on any infidelity board, for that matter) can feel somewhat counter-productive to healing at times.


I allowed others to dictate something that in reality they had no power to dictate. Only ****I**** had the power, I just didn't realize it. Of course, my mother will always be my mother and I will most likely ALWAYS have to deal with what she says - filter it, see who it's coming from - and choose to digest or toss. Oddly enough, she isn't attempting as many 'shames' as she used to... perhaps because she realizes that they won't work in the way they had in the past? And see, that's the ticket, isn't it?

I don't agree with kicking someone when they're down, and yes, I have been kicked smack in the face at times - here and elsewhere. It hurt terribly. If someone called me a name today, I'm not saying it wouldn't sting. But you know, I KNOW THE TRUTH about myself. I hope I'd realize quite quickly that the comment is about them, not me.

Where I might have an issue is if THE COMMENT WERE TRUE. And this is where you and I will (no doubt) disagree. Let's take the word "Infidel"... I *was* one, but am not one now. If someone called me an infidel, it would sting (maybe), and I would realize that the person needed to call me that for their own reasons: NOT about me.

However, if I were currently cheating, I would need to look at myself, too.

As far as defending anything -- I defend the right of folks to respond in their own way, and here's why: It's just like life.

Yes, if we all had a candle what a bright world it would be, but THAT'S NOT REALITY.

In the real world we have to learn ways to treat people, comminicate, to cope, to protect ourselves and those we love, and to fight the bad guys, which exist everywhere. This place is not so different from real life that way. All types of people... and we have to find ways to interact, or NOT. Choices.

I'm finding my way, Star, based on what I believe - authenticity, as you aptly described. I used to think it was honesty, but that's not even the right word (another thread idea? Honesty vs. Authenticity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)...

I'm not the same person I was, but I'm not so far from what I was, either. Ah, the dichotomy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Like Pepp said there is seldom agreement in the scientific community then what if a qualified expert said "shame" works??

There must be some, or at least ONE, that does????

Mr. Wondering

Well I respect your opinion too Starfish - I really do. The Bible clearly uses the word shame so I will defer to it in matters of human interaction if that's OK with you. Personally, I believe you won't care that you are guilty if you don't feel shame. I wouldn't care that I burned my hand if I didn't feel it. Lack of shame is leprosy of the soul.

I have enjoyed this discussion.

If "shame" in the short run would work to yank someone out of an adulterous affair, you would use it too??? Knowingly instead of mistakenly???

If it was effective, doesn't the urgency of ending an affair for a wayward newbie outweigh the damaging effects of the perceived and alas very short-term "shame" they may perceive or actually feel.???

Is shame debilitating in the short run????

Don't you think in the long run, the "shame" can be worked on more effectively in a recovered marriage?

If there was a so-called "shame" approach, and it were possible on a message board, couldn't it be quicker and thus more beneficial (considering time is of the essence) than a less blunt and likely a little more drawn out "nicer" approach???

These are tough questions, I think.

Mr. Wondering

Oh Star,

You dear lady. You have pushed a button. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I MUST reply.

You said
So you see why us scientists don't call these studies science. Or as a friend of mine once pointed out, most fields with the name "science" in it, aren't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, the level of predictability or even accuracy within the topics under discussion means that it really cannot be called "science". However, these studies are surely thought provoking.

We really don't disagree. But, I do think shame leads to fear and that leads to motivation. BK just gave an example. But, what I would suggest is that you and BK are NOT in disagreement. The "shame" he is referring to in his W must be self-discovered to be effective. Whether we can externally impose shame may be of debate, but I would guess (and yes I am guessing) that if it is externally imposed, it is NOT internalized in a way that is effective because it is someone elses opinion.

While I view this as an interesting discussion please understand I do not view it as a debate, because this subject is soooo...subjective. And really I don't find your approach to be one I would object to.

Pep:

I am thinking more along the lines of "An Officer and a Gentleman." I loved that movie but not for the Richard Gere character but for Lou Gossett Jr.'s role. He got it right. Or if one goes way back, I believe the movie was called "The DI". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Must go.

JL

Experts disagree all the time Mr. W.....show me the research!! I'll listen to "your" experts....I'm not too proud for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[color:" red"]Most marriage counselors don't agree with Harley or exposure...does that make him wrong???? [/color]

In all my research I only found ONE "expert" in one article that thought shame was a good motivator....and it was IN an article written by a different expert using scientific research to REFUTE it. So....go after it. Find all the experts refuting this.

I can never figure out why I'm the only one expected to do homework....sheesh.!!!!

Hey pep!! If you represent the dissenting scientific "community"...surely you have your own research <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />....or at least some you can pull up that says "shame is good". If I had found it....if you guys had provided it....I'd look at it!! I'd consider it....I'd weigh it against the preponderance of evidence I did find, study, see....but it's not there. What's supporting the other side is so scarce I can't find it. And even if I COULD find a study like that....I've already found so many to weigh it against....I dunno....it would take alot.

NB....I understand what you're saying. I am happy to see what's happened in your life. I still think that we have a disconnect.... you see/know/understand *how* you hurt yourself by making the choices you did and call that "shame" and that's not what I'm calling "shame"....even though it's about you....it's still about guilt. You can feel guilty for something. So we're still talking apples and oranges maybe. You can know your actions were destructive to *yourself* without hating yourself and believing you don't deserve better....that's what I'm calling shame.

MrW,

These are good questions:

If "shame" in the short run would work to yank someone out of an adulterous affair, you would use it too??? Knowingly instead of mistakenly???

I think "exposure" can sometimes be a short term use of shame and guilt combined....so yeah...I'd use that knowingly for the reasons you described. I also have some reservations about the "way" I've seen some folks do it....so that's a concern too.

If it was effective, doesn't the urgency of ending an affair for a wayward newbie outweigh the damaging effects of the perceived and alas very short-term "shame" they may perceive or actually feel.???

Even exposure is best done calmly, respectfully, and within the sphere that will affect the affair. So no....I don't agree with you about "newbies" <in general>. Even if you want to invoke shame for what you see as "short term benefits" to end an affair.... I think using crass language and name calling has too many liabilities and you'd be far better using <bluntness+guilt> rather than <bluntness+shame>. The idea is ultimately to REACH the newbies who want to change right? So I'm looking for the MOST effective way....not the way that MIGHTwork/sometimes/ if people really want to change/and I think they have the right mindset or the way that worked for joeblow's wife.

Is shame debilitating in the short run????

According to stuff I looked at....yeah...supposedly shame can do alot of long term damage even it doesn't last long. The examples of this talked about how shameful incidents in people's past were still causing problems for people years and years later.....and how difficult is was to help people overcome them. We all have seen how shaming children affects them....and though we like to think that adults are so different....or SHOULD be different....research doesn't show that they are.

Don't you think in the long run, the "shame" can be worked on more effectively in a recovered marriage?

Honestly....I think shame retards recovery....If I didn't think so....why would I waste this much energy....whew. And not just for WS either.....look at the shame some folks feel about forgiving their WS?

If there was a so-called "shame" approach, and it were possible on a message board, couldn't it be quicker and thus more beneficial (considering time is of the essence) than a less blunt and likely a little more drawn out "nicer" approach???

I never argued about "LESS BLUNT"....lemme say that again...blunt is just fine. I talked about partnering Bluntness with GUILT....instead of Bluntness with SHAME. If you read the articles I posted....you'll see why I think so. Use bluntness to expose what people DO...instead of destroying their sense of self which empowers them to do the right thing.

These are tough questions, I think.

good questions. Thanks.

JL....I like what you had to say about "internal" and "external" shame. However, while some psychological research doesn't look much like science at all....the latest research involving magnetic imaging and the study of emotions....being done not by the psychiatric community....but neuroscientists....is not so subjective nor easily dismissed.

What are specific examples of <bluntness with shame>???

I'm just at a loss about the difference (i.e.- versus Bluntness - Guilt)???

Who decides which is which???

Finally, can we really "shame" someone on a message board???

Don't they just "feel" shame (hopefully)...do we really have the ability to deliver additionally feelings of shame?????

Sorry...I'm just trying here.

Mr. W

big K,


I'm glad you brought this up bk....because I agree with you that folks who follow bible teaching are very familiar with the use of the word shame and view it as part of God's word. It may relate somewhat to what JL was saying about internal and external shame (and NB too).

I respect your relgious beliefs....and I understand where you're coming from.

I very much appreciate your thoughts on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Are you not saying that MB Vets YOU perceive or infer, by analyzing their style and words carefully, that the MB vet in question, thinks or is telling the wayward newbie they ARE bad, they are flawed, they are evil, forever????

Isn't the difference between <Blunt-Guilt> and <Blunt-Shame> a matter of your or anybodies perception of the deliverers intent...i.e. whether the MB Vet is trying to be destructive versus helpful???

Even you admit to unintentionally doing it from time to time, you must get that from the advice seekers response but you seem content in your pure goal...thus it was a mistake and not intentionally. Your premise is that some MB Vets intentionally are destructive and abusive with "shame"???? Of course, this is for discussion purposes only. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Anyway...I think I found something on that expert thing. Back in a few minutes...I'll be busy googling. lol

Mr. W

Forgive me for running out on y'all....but a big storm knocked down a tree in my driveway....and I need to go get help so that I'm not trapped in this house...I'm getting hungry!!!

Y'all can trash me and shame me while I'm gone!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh Star,

Don't get me started on medical "science". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Let's just say our ability to measure in the medical field far exceeds our ability to understand, and frankly REAL science experiments cannot be done or are unethical for a good reason.

But, the point is taken that at least are looking into and studying these topics.

Oh did you know that the first EVER study of what constitutes a healthy human being was undertaken by NASA. Know why? Doctors only looked at sick people in their "research". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am not knocking the medical community. What I am saying is that we don't enough and may never know the basics of living organisms.

A crude example I like to use is that I can take an electron and put it in a vacuum some place all by itself. I can leave it for a day, a month, a year, thousands of years and it is still an electron. IF I put a human in a room by him/herself, feed it, but provide nothing else, when I come back in a month, a year, a decade, many decades, I will NOT have what I put in there, unless were are simply talking about the chemical constituents. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Makes doing "science" in the medical field very difficult.

God Bless,

JL

I've been to many of these scientific meetings where research is presented to other experts in the field ...some using PET scans as well .... you would not believe the bickering and general bullying that ensues .... it's freaking hillarious!

One of our papers was ripped to shreds at one of these meetings... I'll never forget that ... I don't think I felt shame ... more akin to sheer terror <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> ... and the desire to go imbibe martinis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't have the killer instinct to go up against that shark tank....

I know a famous criminal defense attorney who uses PET scans when defending the most heinous criminals ... brain damage stuff ... trying to prove her clients are hard-wired for cruelty ... it's interesting stuff

and guess what?

not a slam dunk ... just coz it's published does not mean the study came to a conclusion everyone would agree on ... I think they LIKE to fight at these meetings and rip each others' research apart.

I think it's a MAJOR stretch to imagine that you or I or anyone here causes SHAME on someone who is not already feeling shameful.

If I tried to cause you to feel shame by whatever means ... I am pretty certain I'd fail .... without your cooperation! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

PS... Lou Gossett Jr is a sexy sexy man .... and I feel zero shame saying that!

JL .... medicine is an art

everyone knows that


Pep

Pep,

Yup, we sure do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been in more than my share of scientific meetings and you are right it can be pretty heated. However, ultimately the ability to predict and match those predictions against new data prevails. Of course that is the problem with medical research we are NOT all alike, and the emotional, ephemeral side of it makes it an art.

So are we done trashing Star? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JL

I am not making the arguement that "shame is good" ... maybe someone else is

here's my thing

shame IS

that's it

shame exists

not good
not bad

it just IS

same as other painful experiences

I doubt others can be the cause of shame (as I understand it) unless it already exists in that person's psyche

shame exists there within that person ...

not

I brought shame and placed it there

Pep <~~~~~ shameless fool

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Yeah ... coz now I feel like trashing medical research ....

as deepthroat said to those 2 newspaper boys >>>> follow the money

SO MUCH medical research is actually funded in very suspicious ways ..... hmmmmmmm

Pep

I haven't read the whole post.

I was amazed when I saw some people thought the replies were harsh. My "harsh" antenna goes up immediately (with good reason LOL)and it just waggled about thinking WantOut was being given wonderful replies.

I am always thankful that JL was the person who answered my first post. Probing, thoughtful, made me look at things in a whole new light. I did get a couple of "nasty" posts and I was completely flummoxed by them. Didn't they know I was a nice person?

I know FOR A FACT that if someone had flamed me back then when I'd mustered every bit of courage I owned to post for the first time ever on a forum board, I would never have come back.

OK….Starfish.

I am going to play just one time to try and clear up some of these issues. This is not an attack, but a [edited to add- "attempted"] debunking. lol. Don’t get me wrong, I like some of your posts and you clearly have a writing gift, I just wish you would utilize such gift to actually post to people instead of focusing so much attention to how other people post. I personally think you are wrong, but I am not arrogant enough to think I can even come close to changing your mind or even debating the issue. So this is not a debate. Like JL said, it’s far too subjective to debate. Further, Right or wrong, nothing is likely to change.

IMO, MB IS effective because we are all here and active despite our differences of opinion, beliefs over what works best and who is more compassionate and empathetic. It’s the best message board on the web that I have seen. To me, the more support and differing opinions and advice given to a newbie, the better off “they” are. If you or anyone backs off posting due to fear of being called coddlers or put down for differing in opinion then that is your/their issue. How exactly can THAT be anyone’s fault, is beyond me.

To start with, I don’t buy any of your premise that what some posters herein actually are posting is in any way “shaming” anyone. As you’ll see below, I wish we could actually “shame” them in the short run to get them out of their affairs to their benefit. It actually can be motivating according to your very own expert. However, I believe the strong posts you refer to are, in fact, merely worthwhile attempts to shock them back into reality and that “shame”, the kind noticeable on any PET scan or discussed in D.Brown research and writing is not achievable or applicable to anything anyone could possibly post on the MB message board. I feel it is a disservice to those here to imply that they are motivated to damage or shame people with their so-called offensive “style” and an absolute lie by anyone to ever implicitly state or imply their “pain” motivates them errantly to post in such manner. All in all, I think your whole premise here is actually thinly veiled elitism, that you are trying soooo very hard to make look like constructive and compassionate criticism. I ain’t buying it. If you ever dislike my posts, email me or post how destructive it is to my face if you like…you don’t really have to conflict avoid with these meaningless veiled tirades (shouting silently with big words and irrelevant experts and psuedo-inapplicable science).

That being said, please review these words by Dr. Brene Brown herself and how I feel her research may relate to wayward spouses, “shame” and posts on MB. I likely won’t respond further as I have already wasted enough time trying to decipher and analyze meaningless (to me and MB) psycho-babble. In essence, I conclude Dr.Brown’s research and writing to be inapplicable to the situations on MB and find your misuse of her words misleading, inapplicable, elitist, distracting and pretty much a waste of time. Of course, I don’t at all question your right to post it.


JL is dead on above and he is a great example of a poster using many different styles according to what HE thinks will work. WHATEVER WILL WORK. For him and those like him I am eternally thankful. I have learned a great deal by reading and observing their words and style(s). If I post like others (including JL) it’s because I respect them and have seen their words work wonders. I greatly respect all the MB Vets that so willingly give their time and efforts in the fight against infidelity, including YOU.

NB….grace is a good description of what I see in you also.

BigK….agree 100%


So here goes nothing (literally): Dr. Brene Brown's words found on the internet are all quoted.



Wayward Spouses ARE NOT “trapped” YET. There is no overwhelming ratio of expectations (end your wayward ways) to options (end your wayward ways NOW) being offered, suggested, stated or implied on MB. The option of “sin no more” is a very realistic and a simple way (usually not easy) to meet the expectations of the posters herein.

That being said, JustJilly is a recent example of a wayward spouse in a 10 year old affair marriage upon whom I personally restrained myself from posting to. I couldn’t post one day to someone telling them/promising them their wayward spouse’s relationship with OP WOULD disintegrate and then post to Justjilly the next day about how to save her affair marriage. I think Justjilly’s exit posts were right on…she really had no place here. Others could post what they want, I would never think to question their posts to her, I personally didn’t want to post to someone that was so obviously and permanently “trapped” in shame. She is an example of one ”trapped in shame”…she can’t go back to her God-given husband, she needs to end her adulterous affair marriage and really can’t marry again (except to her original husband) pursuant to my religious beliefs. I quickly realized I had absolutely nothing in the form of support for her so I choose to abstain. My personal decision. However, Justjilly is the exception to the rule….most waywards that appear on MB are not so “trapped” in shame because the options and expectations are not that onerous…END YOUR AFFAIR.


Waywards are not “powerless”. They may be paralyzed by “feelings” but they alone have the “ability to act and produce an effect” that is if they respond quick enough before they destroy their marriage beyond reconciliation. Though “shame” may illicit within such wayward newbie themselves such “quickness” (see below – B.Brown even acknowledges “shame” is a motivator) I still think it’s impossible for us to deliver it. The “shame” you perceive us to be throwing at them can not be characterized as utilizing “shame”. It is entirely impossible for anyone of us to make them actually shameful because they are not trapped, nor powerless, YET. The posting style you dislike is, IMO, NOT an attempt to say “they are bad, they are flawed and/or they are a bad person”. I believe they are in fact, challenging them to “feel guilt” and illicit healthy change. I, personally, post under the presumption that if they are on MB seeking support here there must be some goodness in them that can be drawn out IF WE CHALLENGE THEM…if we hit them smack in the face with reality. Sometimes I post that way…other times I am restrained…it’s all situational.




Since “isolation” is a product of being trapped and powerless…neither of which a wayward truly is YET then “isolation” doesn’t really apply either. Besides “society” doesn’t adequately make a wayward feel so isolated. The media and society in general accept and glamorize adulterous “love” affairs. No shame there…so the fogged out wayward believes. MB does a great job and service of counter-balancing/disabusing the newbie wayward spouse of this societal misrepresentation by pointing out to the Wayward (and making them “consciously” aware) from the get-go that life as a wayward spouse and later in an contemplated affair marriage will be “isolating” and unpleasant. MB posters should point out clearly and directly that they should fear THEMSELVES (not by our words) feeling “shameful” forever if they choose to continue their ways, divorce their God given Spouse and marry their supposed soul mate affair partner in an adulterous marriage. We really need to shock their “consciousness” with the realization of the never ending “shame” they are likely to feel if THEY DON’T turn away from their wayward ways…NOW. Like Justjilly, if they fail to wake up and become conscious TODAY, they may just end up powerless, trapped and isolated down the road.



The waywards that appear at MB are or should already be experiencing/feeling “shame”. We can not and do not do it to them as stated above. However, they are not stuck there YET. Again, when they arrive they are not powerless, isolated or trapped by shame. I propose and surmise that by actually being direct, brutal, tough, and harsh many here hope to illicit “REAL” change, awareness, insight while the wayward still has the ability (hopefully) to make a thoughtful decision in enough time to save their marriage. “Meaningful, healthy change” is only possible if the quick change to their wayward ways is timely made now matter how such change is illicited. That IS truly compassionate and empathetic. Mincing words and taking to much time to ease along the wayward newbie MAY only delay the process even if in the long run, according to your interpretation of Dr. Brown, it could be healthier. What good is a healthy divorced FWS???? We SHOULD shame them if we only could....dang.




I believe and have seen the best results on MB when we challenge and attempt to shock such waywards back into reality when they arrive here. IMHO, some balance in posts is good, 2x4’s and so-called coddling posts have a wonderful combined effect as long as we ALL stay away from commenting on each other. The wayward is coddled to stick around but MORE IMPORTANTLY challenged/shocked to respond with “I am not bad”, “I am not flawed” and “I am not a bad person” to the 2 x 4’s or Blunt/Shame, if any. They are “challenged” and hopefully “shocked” NOT “shamed” to feel guilty and thus prompted to make amends and change their behavior. I think most agree that if they truly are bad and flawed they will continue down this infidelity road to utter destruction no matter what we say. If those waywards or you want to perceive what we are telling them to do and how we describe their insidious actions as additional “shame” so be it because in the end that IS my opinion of them. However, the wayward that takes our words to their core, recognizes their own feelings of “shame” (not ones instilled by anyone on MB because I’ve already demonstrated that is not possible) and uses their own “shame resiliency” (a B.Brown concept) to say “I am not what these people think I am”…they then become, IN REALITY, motivated by guilt to make amends and change their behavior.


If by some stretch of the imagination anyone’s words here were in fact able to deliver “shame” to wayward spouse newbie...perhaps, we should all aspire to do just that. You can see quite clearly that Dr. Brene Brown acknowledges shame as a “change agent” (which all of your previous posts conveniently disregard) I REPEAT, DR. B.BROWN SAYS SHAME WORKS in the short term. According to her words above, it IS an effective short-term tool to effect “swift behavior change”. What better expert can I find than YOUR OWN EXPERT. She even uses the word "swift" and I've already discussed how timliness IS important and relevant. There must be a recovery, before the damage of so-called shame and building up of the wayward spouse can ever begin or ever be really done. Perhaps, the sooner, the swifter we get them to act, by whatever blunt means we can muster, the more likely they recovery and the better off they will be.

As far as the rest of the sentence after acknowledgement of the fact "shame works", Ms. Brown research is limited to only discussing how shame affects regular every day woman (normal women in general NOT wayward spouses) and that such “shaming” inflicts serious consequences. I highly doubt B.Brown would consider such “consequences” in the short run as MORE damaging than the damage done by a wayward spouse to his or her self, their spouse and their family. I could care less about how an abusive wayward spouse on MB may feel in the future if she/he doesn’t STOP being wayward. Such consequences of shame are self-inflicted and have NOTHIING to do with how I/we decide to post to them at MB.

I further disagree strongly that I am or could somehow be damaged because I choose to post harshly, even if I could use <blunt-shame> as defined by you, to someone when I do choose to post strongly from time to time. Like you, I do so for what I perceive to be in the waywards greater good, because I have empathy for them and want to see them stop their wayward ways AS SOON AS POSSIBLE for themselves, their spouses and their families.

All in all, it is my belief that an active wayward spouse is incapable of full “awareness”, clear “insight” and “thoughtful decision-making” to overcome "shame" anyway until out of the fog and into reality. Shame (if possible to deliver), bluntness, guilt, embarrassment, 2x4’s, rants, vents, WHATEVER possible CAN and should be utilized by us to bash someone OUT OF THE FOG…so that thus they may be more successfully able to "FEEL" anything, including the guilt, awareness, powerfulness and the self-worthiness necessary to "really affect change". If we don’t empathetically bash them to such decision quick enough, if we enable them, coddle, or try to peacefully or calmly “rationalize” with them, instead of feeling pain for a short time they may just end up becoming trapped, powerless and isolated divorced or, God forbid, in an affair marriage and stuck THEMSELVES feeling such unhealthy “shame” FOREVER. Now THAT would be truly regrettable.


<Blunt-shame>...if I can, I will. I don't really think it's my forte...but I admire and respect those with the ability to actually blunt-shock, er, blunt-shame effectively.

Mr. Wondering

You certainly can.

Mr W you have "the carrot and stick of Plan A" attached to your signature line.

Given your views that a carrot and stick don't work, shouldn't you remove it.

And what really gets me going is that most veteran posters go to great pains to point out what a Plan A is but it doesn't seem to apply to WSs on the board. It seems then you can unleash any sort of fury you want. Maybe Plan A should be changed to "Really let your WS have it with both barrels. Use the worst language you can think of. Tell them what a worthless person they are" That's sure to work. I should really contact the Harley's and tell them that the MB board thinks Plan A should be changed.

Having said that, I don't think WantOut was treated to that. I think all advice was spot on.

Jen,

I think Mr. W is addressing some things that Star said. I don't think he is advocating "letting the WS have it with both barrels" so to speak. The questionis: is shame something that we (and that includes you) can impose on a poster here? If we could would it be an effective way to motivate a WS? Which leads to what people think and do.

He is not advocating just blasting a WS. In fact he asserts that he does consider whether he can offer anything positive or not to a person before posting to them. I agree.

You and your H were people that I felt for some reason I could speak to. I don't know why, but I just felt it. There are others here where I don't feel I have anything to offer and if I did it would not be received well. So I don't post to them.

This is not about fault or intention, but feel. Oddly (to me anyway) Anyname is someone that I never could really connect with in a communications sense and she was a BS. Somehow anything I said offended her, so I stopped.

I think what all of this discussion indicates is that communications and certainly communications on a board such as this is somewhat of an art form and we just have to play it by ear. There really is no sheet music to work with.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, JL, I haven't really done justice to this thread, I've been busy at work and sort of half reading.

No, shame as such isn't something you can impose, I meant more that people's words can have a very significant emotional affect even on a bulletin board.

I think we all "get along" with some posters more than others, just life real life I guess. Sometimes when it's been a situation like Wantout's, which parallels mine in a lot of respects, I just didn't have a lot to offer.

Well, I'm back for my last post of the night. People gotta sleep around here ya know! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

While I appreciate a spirited discussion, I think I've repeated myself enough (and the MB-world heaves a collective sigh of relief <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ).

Just a few thoughts:

• Shame, to me, does not equal worthlessness. On the contrary, it allows is a natural progression from a wrong act (sin, if you will) that opens the door for RECLAIMING a feeling of worth.
  
  
• Different people respond to different posting styles and sometimes the same poster needs hugs one day and a swift kick in the hiney the next. I also adapt my delivery accordingly, at times.
  
  
• I believe that brain chemistry changes during infidelity, as it does for anything "pleasurable" (blech, if only you'd seen me DURING my affair - anything but pleasurable - it was more like the manic phase of bi-polar, and I don't say that jokingly or disrespectfully - I *appeared* giddy, but it was so... almost unreal)... anyway... ahem. <tumbleweed rolls by as NB is lost in thought>
  
  
• All this talk about brain scans, chemicals, neurons and stuff makes me wonder why scientists spend millions of dollars to tell us that mean words hurt us (like we don't know that already) ... and yet my son (who wasn't breathing when he was born 21 years ago) still doesn't know exactly how or why his brain (or his hands) don't function properly.
  

And with that, I bid you good night.

ETA: Mr.W, a wee 'thank you'... grace is a word I'd never thought of to describe myself. To be told twice in one day that I have it is lovely.

NB- GREAT POST. Thank you.

Oh...does she??? Where is your board Star*? I would like to see it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

congratulations! >>> the duck comes down<<<

You said today's secret word

tumble weed

>>> Groucho says: "Say the secret word and you'll win $50." <<<

[color:"red"]If my opinion is stupid ... please report this to Arkie! [/color]

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />\

I just KNEW you'd like that piece of quasi-logic-brilliance......

arkie....

So...

I just popped in and read the original post on this thread. wantout's only posted 2wice in all, and this thread is 14 pages long?

So, it must be about something else by now... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

At least I don't need 2 respond 2 the original poster.

-ol' 2long

So exactly what IS the active ingredient of infidelity exposure?

Shame?
Guilt?
Fear of ridicule or actual ridicule?
Fear of disapproval or actual disapproval?
Fear of embarrassment or actual embarrassment?
Other?

All of the above?

Do we even KNOW for any given case?

Does it matter what we call it? - as long as it works?

If exposure doesn't work, does this mean none of these "things" were present? - or not enough of them?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT
---------------
Infectuation - an obsessive attraction to someone who's going to do you very wrong.

Hello All.....As much as I'd like to play all day....my little boys birthday is tommorow and we're going to Seaworld. But I didn't want to run off without making an attempt to reply to some of you....though not as thoroughly as I would like. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Please know it isn't because I'm ignoring anyone.

JL....I agree that there are problems with research and experts. Everything has problems, but that doesn't mean that this much evidence from this many sources is dismissable. Harley is an "expert" afterall....should we dismiss him? We don't because we can see that his strategies work....it's believable. That isn't dissimilar to how I feel about this body of work....from many researchers....that point to problems of using shame as a motivator. I certainly can't expect everyone to find this interesting or relevent....but I do. And that hasn't changed. Thank you for your thoughts.

Mr.W.....whew....you wrote alot!!! Thanks for all your time and thoughts. Let me try and hit a few highlights, because I can't respond to everything you said.


I just wanted to say....that yesterday, while posting on this thread....I posted to many many people who needed help. I mostly post on the EN board, but I posted to many people on this one too yesterday. I checked my posts....and I made 24 posts unrelated to this thread helping other people. I am often the first one to greet folks here on MB and the person who looks for unanswered posts. And I've spent 5 years posting to people and have amassed over 14,000 posts...so I really don't understand your criticism about how I've utilized my "gift". I think this was kind of a cheap shot.

Secondly.....this is not about STYLE or "how people post". This is about "shame" as a good/bad motivator. So I'm not going to get baited into another discussion about coddling and style. It's been done ad naseum and gets nowhere.

Yes...this discussion is unlikely to change anything....in my eyes, that doesn't make it a worthless discussion. Obviously, if I thought it was pointless....I wouldn't waste my time.

I agree this is a great message board and the diversity of it is one of it's strengths. I also agree that different postees will connect with different posters. However, you're still talking about style and coddling and I'm not.


Yikes....okay....sticks and stones Mr.W. If you want to disagree with me....fine....however, calling me an elitest or conflict avoider making veiled tirades, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> weakens your argument in my opinion. I have a long history of being a contributing poster on this board...and I think you might be the only one who's EVER called me a conflict avoider!! LOL...shrinking violet I'm not. I'm not going respond to your obvious disrespect or the angry tone of your post. I can only say that when you find a post troublesome...it's better for you to avoid that post and poster. Afterall, these are just words on a message board....they don't really have any power, right? You're proving my argument for me Mr.W. If my words can create anger, disgust, aggravation, irritation, etc....why don't you think words can create shame? Words are powerful...even words on an anonymous message board. Much better writers than I have spoken about the power of words.

[color:" blue"]Philip [censored] said: "I really do inhabit a system in which words are capable of shaking the entire structure of government, where words can prove mightier than ten military divisions."

Vaclav Havel said: "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." [/color]

Afterall....aren't words the only weapon we have at our disposal to fight infidelity in this place?

Now to the issue of Dr. Brown. It's interesting how you picked and chose things to highlight. Shame most DEFINITELY creates change.....rapidly....that's why people use it!! It's used all the time. What Dr. Brown is saying....and I <think> you know it....is that it's a crummy motivator. You don't think this stuff is applicable to MB...I do....don't know what to tell you....we just disagree.

These are her words too:


Whether waywards feel trapped, powerless, or isolated....all of which I'm convinced they do when they experience shame...this wasn't directed at only waywards. Shame affects everyone. I've seen shame used to on BSs too. For instance, those who don't follow the MB handbook about exposure or Plan B etc.

You think "shocking" is a good idea....sometimes, I agree with you....as long as "guilt" is the vehicle for shock and not "shame".

You highlighted the red portion of this paragraph....because it said that shame creates change:


But you used the paragraph like a buffet table...and only picked the part you liked. I think you missed the meaning...because clearly it talks about how destructive shame is as vehicle for change. No one is refuting that it creates change....is it a good idea to weigh the COST of using shame in that way. I think that's worth looking at.

Aside from this....Ms.Brown is only one of many researchers doing research on shame. Now if you think that's unapplicable here....I respect that....I just don't agree. I've been here a long time Mr.W....I've seen some stuff that was pretty disturbing.

If you want to "bash people out of the fog with a 2X4", use shame and embarassment to motivate people....I can't stop you. I don't have that power. But it seems to really get your goat that I don't agree that those are as effective as using guilt rather than shame. You asked me on another post about how to use bluntness+guilt instead of bluntness+shame. Bluntness+guilt would be about attacking what someone is doing. Talking plainly about the consequences and the tragedy that those actions will yield. Bluntness+shame is attacking who someone is. Name calling, humiliation, intimidation.

As far as justjilly....wow....I'm wondering how were going to help people in that situation or if we can at all. Maybe some folks just think....good riddance....affair marriages are not legitimate and we can't help them. Affair marriages have rotten odds and trigger things for our main body of posters....the problem is that whether it's distasteful to me or not...they're legally married and often there are children involved in both the first marriage and the affair marriage....such a tragedy. I don't know how helpful this board will be to them....but if I can help....I will try to. I won't mince the truth....and I didn't with justjilly....but I won't run them off either. It's a tough situation.

Thank your for your time and energy Mr.W. I appreciate all your thoughts.

Kiwi....I KNOW that this board has the power to create shame....some disagree....I respect that, but I've seen differently.

NB....Thank you for your thoughts. I understand what you're saying and appreciate the way you presented it. I'm sure there are many folks who agree with you.

Suzet....They're pulling your leg chere....I don't have my own board. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just read Star's above message.

Just what I said about her earlier, she is a thoughtful and caring lady. She always gives guidence and help to hurting people that come to MB!

Oh...okay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />